England 2023 - Post 6N and beyond

by Sgt_Pooly Tue 21 Mar 2023, 10:57 am

First topic message reminder :

Continued......

by doctor_grey Tue 20 Jun 2023, 12:11 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:When looking at tackle stats it's worth remembering the that Saints and Sale were the sides that made the most and were also two of the top three sides for penalties conceded. They invite a lot of pressure on themselves.

The reason Dingwall gets a lot of practice is because the 12 channel is a common target at Saints. As Doc says Hutchinson isn't a strong defender, Fin Smith on the inside won't be offering lots and a strong carrier will back themselves to at least send Dingwall back over the gain line it not carry through him. I would agree that he might look better in a half decent defensive system, I'm not really sure how the Saints defence or scrum coaches really keep their jobs. Their lack of skill in those areas undermines the best attack in the league (by a distance).

You and me both, mate. It is so strange, put Lawes, Ludlum, Ribbans, Mitchell (for a 9), etc. in the England squad and they play a right and proper defence. Back at Saints, the defence is loopy, to keep it polite. Regarding Fin Smith and defence, we simply don't know. He doesn't shy from tackles, but Saints frequently have the 10 out of the defensive line the way the ABs did with Daniel Carter. They also did this with Biggar, ostensibly because of his injury history (and not because of his tendency to tackle a wee bit high). They also do this with Jimmy G., which surprises me, though not a dynamic attacking 10 but he can defend and make his tackles.

Dowson as a player was a classic over-achiever who made himself a quality flanker through a lot of study, film work, and training. I would have thought he would be the perfect coach to create a hard and resolute defence. One more year, perhaps with Boyd out of the picture...

by Poorfour Tue 20 Jun 2023, 1:03 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:In a Sliding Doors Universe there are some quite interesting what ifs. Just think that its too risky on some of the swaps talked about with the level of detail the players need to take in on systems etc. I know Jones banged on about after 2 or 3 breakdowns everythings up in the air anyway...but that's when we kick it away.

I think that was the crux of the issue with Eddie's change of systems.

With Ford (or to a lesser extent Farrell) at 10, after 2 or 3 structured phases the defence are where he wants them and England would kick for May or Watson to compete.

With Smith at 10 (at least at club level) after 2 or 3 fast phases the defence is stretched and he puts the ball in the hands of the player closest to a gap.

Eddie was trying to move England from one model to the other, but the phases weren't fast enough and there weren't enough players seeing and lining up the gaps. The bulk of the players were still reacting too muh like they did under the Ford/Farrell game plan - or were off on their timings.

Borthwick simplified things but the timing and understanding was still off. Malins was seeing the crossfield kick opportunities but the timing between him and Smith or Farrell was off, Dombrandt was picking the lines but not hitting the pass at the right time. Lots of that is fixable in camp, though. I'm not writing England off just yet - they have the chance to build through the Group stage, as long as Borthwick can get fitness and clarity into his squad.

by formerly known as Sam Tue 20 Jun 2023, 3:58 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:When looking at tackle stats it's worth remembering the that Saints and Sale were the sides that made the most and were also two of the top three sides for penalties conceded. They invite a lot of pressure on themselves.

The reason Dingwall gets a lot of practice is because the 12 channel is a common target at Saints. As Doc says Hutchinson isn't a strong defender, Fin Smith on the inside won't be offering lots and a strong carrier will back themselves to at least send Dingwall back over the gain line it not carry through him. I would agree that he might look better in a half decent defensive system, I'm not really sure how the Saints defence or scrum coaches really keep their jobs. Their lack of skill in those areas undermines the best attack in the league (by a distance).
You and me both, mate. It is so strange, put Lawes, Ludlum, Ribbans, Mitchell (for a 9), etc. in the England squad and they play a right and proper defence. Back at Saints, the defence is loopy, to keep it polite. Regarding Fin Smith and defence, we simply don't know. He doesn't shy from tackles, but Saints frequently have the 10 out of the defensive line the way the ABs did with Daniel Carter. They also did this with Biggar, ostensibly because of his injury history (and not because of his tendency to tackle a wee bit high). They also do this with Jimmy G., which surprises me, though not a dynamic attacking 10 but he can defend and make his tackles.

Dowson as a player was a classic over-achiever who made himself a quality flanker through a lot of study, film work, and training. I would have thought he would be the perfect coach to create a hard and resolute defence. One more year, perhaps with Boyd out of the picture...

Considering the overall size of the Saints pack it's always a surprise they go backwards in the way they do I'm defence. Playing a lock sized blindside most the time and Augustus at 8. It's a physical set up and in attack they play like it. In defence, nope.

Makes sense to stand Fin Smith a bit further out for Saints. You want him on his feet and scanning the field with Furbank so that if there's a turnover Saints can attack quick. Make use of those support lines and just carve up. Dan Carter wasn't a bad defender but the ABs were smart to keep him on his feet and alive to opportunities as well.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 21 Jun 2023, 10:31 am

Poorfour wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:In a Sliding Doors Universe there are some quite interesting what ifs. Just think that its too risky on some of the swaps talked about with the level of detail the players need to take in on systems etc. I know Jones banged on about after 2 or 3 breakdowns everythings up in the air anyway...but that's when we kick it away.

I think that was the crux of the issue with Eddie's change of systems.

With Ford (or to a lesser extent Farrell) at 10, after 2 or 3 structured phases the defence are where he wants them and England would kick for May or Watson to compete.

With Smith at 10 (at least at club level) after 2 or 3 fast phases the defence is stretched and he puts the ball in the hands of the player closest to a gap.

Eddie was trying to move England from one model to the other, but the phases weren't fast enough and there weren't enough players seeing and lining up the gaps. The bulk of the players were still reacting too muh like they did under the Ford/Farrell game plan - or were off on their timings.

Borthwick simplified things but the timing and understanding was still off. Malins was seeing the crossfield kick opportunities but the timing between him and Smith or Farrell was off, Dombrandt was picking the lines but not hitting the pass at the right time. Lots of that is fixable in camp, though. I'm not writing England off just yet - they have the chance to build through the Group stage, as long as Borthwick can get fitness and clarity into his squad.

Bounce of a ball, someone emerging and putting together 3 or 4 top notch performances can suddenly transform a situation. As you say we've got the kindest draw we could hope for, even given that Argentina beat us recently. Currently I'd say it would be under par for us to not reach the semis, but then it's likely to be France. At that stage pressure etc can get to you but with the way forward indicated currently I can't see if England do fall behind that there is any dice roll he have, perhaps it's just all on Arundell.

by Geordie Wed 21 Jun 2023, 11:22 am

Theres no pressure really...England arent expected to be in the races.

Borthwick needs to get the side all on the same page with the tactics etc. We know what they'll be roughly...but with the right personnel he can create a competitive side.

Itoje, Curry, Lawes, Genge, Ford, Farrell, Daly, Watson, theres alot of experienced quality there.

Theres plenty of youth tearing up the Prem....Pearson, George Martin, Murley etc...
He just needs to get the right balance.

I would say Borthwick will be looking something like this...The bolds are the battles....

1 Genge
2 George (Blamire bench)
3 Sinkler v Stuart
4 Itoje
5 Isiekwe v Ribbans v Martin
6 Lawes v Pearson v T. Hill v Underhill
7 Curry
8 Dombrandt v Mercer

9 JVP v Quirke
10 Ford
11 Daly v Malins v Murley v May
12 Farrell
13 Lawrence
14 Watson
15 Steward

by mountain man Wed 21 Jun 2023, 11:31 am

I'd say SF are best England can hope for really, can't see them progressing past that if they even get there.

As for your team Geordie, I think Borthwick liable to be pretty conservative so I think he'll go:

Genge
George
Sinckler
Itoje
Ribbans
Lawes
Curry
Dombrandt
JvP
Farrell
Lawrence
Slade
Malins
Watson
Steward

But again, who knows. Perhaps he'll surprise us.

Not saying it's team I'd pick but what I think SB will.

by Geordie Wed 21 Jun 2023, 11:37 am

I agree i think he'll be conservative to a degree...dont forget for Tigers he wasnt afraid to put the kids in even if he did have a free season so to speak. No reason that he wouldnt put George Martin in if hes pulling up trucks in training etc.

I do think Ford will be there and as KC has said previously i can see Daly being on the wing. Hopefully putting to bed the England career of Malins (great Prem player...just not an international winger IMO).

by mountain man Wed 21 Jun 2023, 11:51 am

I'm not so sure on Daly, on his day he's excellent but he's had a few shockers for England along the way.

As for Malins, again not who I'd start necessarily but he's been so good for Sarries and Borthwick picked him in 6N so I think he will again.

The question I'm pondering is does he use warm up games to try out new players/combinations or does he basically pick his RWC 23 and get it honed during those matches.

What I definitely don't want is Youngs and JvP as 9s, Farrell as a 12, Slade 13, May on wing. JvP as one maybe but if it's him and Youngs that's a grim prospect.
If Mako and Cole are on bench that also won't fill me with anticipation but alternatives are scarce.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 21 Jun 2023, 11:54 am

I don't think he has qualms about younger players.

Re pressure and expectation...looking at the run of potential games I'm not sure there isn't pressure to achieve the basics. Given the grumbles and public comments about targets not being set for Jones do you think the RFU haven't done so for Borthwick? As I type that yes, the RFU won't have put in targets will they! Seriously though I think he'll have been given a free ride for the 6Ns given when he came in, would the person who handed him the contract not given him a minimum achievement level and put a clause in linked to reduced pay off?

by No 7&1/2 Wed 21 Jun 2023, 11:55 am

mountain man wrote:I'm not so sure on Daly, on his day he's excellent but he's had a few shockers for England along the way.

As for Malins, again not who I'd start necessarily but he's been so good for Sarries and Borthwick picked him in 6N so I think he will again.

The question I'm pondering is does he use warm up games to try out new players/combinations or does he basically pick his RWC 23 and get it honed during those matches.

What I definitely don't want is Youngs and JvP as 9s, Farrell as a 12, Slade 13, May on wing. JvP as one maybe but if it's him and Youngs that's a grim prospect.
If Mako and Cole are on bench that also won't fill me with anticipation but alternatives are scarce.

Rapava Ruskn and Marler are pretty decent back ups. Id' rather have Obano than Vunipola.

by mountain man Wed 21 Jun 2023, 12:05 pm

Agree on Obano over Mako. VRR needs to be tried out for sure but I'm concerned how many new players he'll try. I somewhat suspect for RWC it'll be old guard and he'll refesh squad for 6N.

by Geordie Wed 21 Jun 2023, 12:16 pm

mountain man wrote:Agree on Obano over Mako. VRR needs to be tried out for sure but I'm concerned how many new players he'll try. I somewhat suspect for RWC it'll be old guard and he'll refesh squad for 6N.

If they find a system that brings the best out of the old guard for the world cup, and then allows for the transition of new kids to come in to a system they can understand quickly for the 6n...then im ok with that.

World Cups dont tend to be won by fijian style rugby. But you very much need an efficient attack.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 21 Jun 2023, 12:23 pm

Can I ask then what are people's lines in the sand in terms of style, development and achievement in the run to the 6Ns?

by Geordie Wed 21 Jun 2023, 1:14 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can I ask then what are people's lines in the sand in terms of style, development and achievement in the run to the 6Ns?

Brick Wall Defence
Strong mauling and rucking

Attack - Happy with the kick chase, so long as the kicks are on the money (which Ford does) and the chasers are brutally on it.

Then in the opposition 50 or 22 we open up as soon as its on...with top speed and efficiency more than style. Attack like a cobra to put a cheesy slant on it.

In this particular tournament i dont care about flash and style, i want us to get the basics right...and be ruthlessly efficient in those. From that starting point we can then see how the WC goes and begin the development and introduction of new players

by No 7&1/2 Wed 21 Jun 2023, 1:58 pm

Achievement Geordie? If we go out in the groups or vs Wales, does it matter? Or if we win lineout ball are efficient, contest well and lose by 30 points vs France in the semis is all good for the 6Ns including if we're lining up with a team like say:

Genge George Sinckler
Itoje Launchbury
Lawes CUrry
Vunipola
Youngs Ford
May Farrell Slade Daly
Steward.

Would we all set for the next games?

by Geordie Wed 21 Jun 2023, 2:07 pm

Yes i think going out in the group stages would definitely matter.

I say QF minimum and given the run...even that would be an average showing, that would raise more questions about Borthwick. SF would be a decent finish.

Im saying im not overly concerned about style and flashiness....but if you get the basics right and are aggressive in that, as ive mentioned above you make yourself a very tough team to play against.

Its not enough to beat the very best as they will have that and more....but i would accept an aggressive physical performance with showings of efficient attack and a ideally a SF finish.

The kick chase is the crucial part for me. The falcons operate that and our chase is utterly appalling, either the kick is way off the spot or the wingers arent quick enough to get there....or just get sidestepped and taken out the game... it renders the whole thing pointless.

So if theyre going to run with it...make sure those wingers are smashing the receiver EVERY single time that ball goes up!

A 30 point defeat by france would not be acceptable.

by Mr Bounce Wed 21 Jun 2023, 2:33 pm

If there's a whole bunch of older players being less than stellar, dull attacking similar to the 6N and rubbish defence, then Borthwick will deserve all the criticism the world has to offer, especially if we only make the QFs.

Hopefully there's going to be a decent mix of experienced players and youthful excitement. My heart would sink if I saw Youngs, Mako Vunipola and Farrell at 12 in the starting line up. Unfortunately, Borthwick is conservative enough to make that happen....

Will we have Genge as Captain??

by Geordie Wed 21 Jun 2023, 3:09 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:If there's a whole bunch of older players being less than stellar, dull attacking similar to the 6N and rubbish defence, then Borthwick will deserve all the criticism the world has to offer, especially if we only make the QFs.

Hopefully there's going to be a decent mix of experienced players and youthful excitement. My heart would sink if I saw Youngs, Mako Vunipola and Farrell at 12 in the starting line up. Unfortunately, Borthwick is conservative enough to make that happen....

Will we have Genge as Captain??

1 out of 3....i think Farrell will start

by doctor_grey Wed 21 Jun 2023, 3:29 pm

Geordie wrote:
Mr Bounce wrote:If there's a whole bunch of older players being less than stellar, dull attacking similar to the 6N and rubbish defence, then Borthwick will deserve all the criticism the world has to offer, especially if we only make the QFs.

Hopefully there's going to be a decent mix of experienced players and youthful excitement. My heart would sink if I saw Youngs, Mako Vunipola and Farrell at 12 in the starting line up. Unfortunately, Borthwick is conservative enough to make that happen....

Will we have Genge as Captain??

1 out of 3....i think Farrell will start

I doubt we will see Youngs or Mako starting at 12. (though the results likely won't be worse than Farrell)....

by Geordie Wed 21 Jun 2023, 3:56 pm

Makos got better handling than Farrell...

Best England 12 they never had after Simmonds... Run

by formerly known as Sam Wed 21 Jun 2023, 4:33 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Achievement Geordie? If we go out in the groups or vs Wales, does it matter? Or if we win lineout ball are efficient, contest well and lose by 30 points vs France in the semis is all good for the 6Ns including if we're lining up with a team like say:

Genge George Sinckler
Itoje Launchbury
Lawes CUrry
Vunipola
Youngs Ford
May Farrell Slade Daly
Steward.

Would we all set for the next games?

I'd be surprised if we lined up with that midfield, doesn't feel like a Borthwick midfield based on what we've seen so far. He's liked to have at least one serious running threat.

Don't think Launchbury will make it either, be one of Ribbans or Martin as I doubt Chessum will recover in time. Watson will certainly start on one wing as well.

Add Ribbans and Lawrence into the side for Launchbury and Slade and it starts to look better. Watson probably replaces May. I wouldn't be that happy with the backrow but with those three changes the rest of the side would be passable if a bit experience over form.

What I'm hoping to see pre tournament is some of the younger guys really take their chances and force their way into the side. Hopefully that brings the type of hunger and tenacity we saw in the Tigers side when they won the league. Might not be the prettiest but brutal physicality and a huge work rate. That mentality should at least keep the opposition on the back foot and mean we get ball in hand time where we'll be hard pushed to be as ineffective as we were in the 6N though another change in attack coach probably won't help.

by doctor_grey Wed 21 Jun 2023, 5:01 pm

A quick word, or 286 (per word count), about expectation. I disagree about there being minimal, or perhaps just less pressure, on the England squad in this RWC. From a fan’s perspective we expect little based on recent results, so our expectations are therefore lower. I would add, however, any time we see a poor play which could/should have been made I doubt we will be so forgiving.

On the other hand, from a player’s pov, the stakes are extremely high. At least half of these players will never have another shot at the England squad, or more specifically the RWC and a chance to be considered the best in the world. The pressure on them to perform will be internal and from teammates, as it usually is in pro sport. Jamie George, for instance, is not there to be a good loser (in true British tradition). He wants the whole enchilada, as do the rest of them. And will give his blood, sweat, and guts to win it. If they lose at the QF, or heaven forbid, before, they will be gutted. And this is not the Rugby team from Chile, just happy to be there. This is bloody England. Expectations are always there, regardless of how we feel.

Further, though the RFU may have given Borthwick and his team a free pass for this RWC, if England stink it up, he/they will be held liable which can impact their future employment. Liable by their bosses, who expect competence if not more, by the media who will want to see effort and a lack of inane thinking, and by us, who want to see effort, smarts, and results. These guys are top pros. Go perform.

by mountain man Thu 22 Jun 2023, 8:10 am

As it always was and always will be, the expectation on England is inevitably hyped by media. The fans know and deep down the players probably realise they are unlikely to win but the pressure to do well will be intense.

It is last chance saloon for some so that should be extra incentive. If England don't get out of group that's a failure however you look at it. Borthwick new to job etc but if they fail to progress he'll cop some grief and rightly so. It could be case England play well but likes of Japan and Arg just play better on day but if they don't get to knock out stage that would be grim.

Personally my expectations aren't high, I think they will get out of group but cannot see them going beyond SF at best.

I'm looking more towards next RWC cycle starting with 6N 2024 with a refreshed squad and build from there. By then maybe RFU and clubs sorted something out along financial deals etc so players have security, know their future in medium term is secure which can only help ease pressure on them and hence make them better players.

by Geordie Thu 22 Jun 2023, 8:37 am

mountain man wrote:As it always was and always will be, the expectation on England is inevitably hyped by media. The fans know and deep down the players probably realise they are unlikely to win but the pressure to do well will be intense.

It is last chance saloon for some so that should be extra incentive. If England don't get out of group that's a failure however you look at it. Borthwick new to job etc but if they fail to progress he'll cop some grief and rightly so. It could be case England play well but likes of Japan and Arg just play better on day but if they don't get to knock out stage that would be grim.

Personally my expectations aren't high, I think they will get out of group but cannot see them going beyond SF at best.

I'm looking more towards next RWC cycle starting with 6N 2024 with a refreshed squad and build from there. By then maybe RFU and clubs sorted something out along financial deals etc so players have security, know their future in medium term is secure which can only help ease pressure on them and hence make them better players.

Have to say thats very much along the lines im feeling.

BUT i want to see the start of it through this world cup. As Sam mentioned above...start to develop a real ferocious tenacity and physicality, etc. We might not be the most breathtaking side...but by god just make us a team that noone wants to or enjoys playing against...and then as you say post WC and 6n etc you can start to develop other aspects of the game...more attack cleverness etc.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 22 Jun 2023, 8:44 am

Geordie wrote:
mountain man wrote:As it always was and always will be, the expectation on England is inevitably hyped by media. The fans know and deep down the players probably realise they are unlikely to win but the pressure to do well will be intense.

It is last chance saloon for some so that should be extra incentive. If England don't get out of group that's a failure however you look at it. Borthwick new to job etc but if they fail to progress he'll cop some grief and rightly so. It could be case England play well but likes of Japan and Arg just play better on day but if they don't get to knock out stage that would be grim.

Personally my expectations aren't high, I think they will get out of group but cannot see them going beyond SF at best.

I'm looking more towards next RWC cycle starting with 6N 2024 with a refreshed squad and build from there. By then maybe RFU and clubs sorted something out along financial deals etc so players have security, know their future in medium term is secure which can only help ease pressure on them and hence make them better players.

Have to say thats very much along the lines im feeling.

BUT i want to see the start of it through this world cup. As Sam mentioned above...start to develop a real ferocious tenacity and physicality, etc. We might not be the most breathtaking side...but by god just make us a team that noone wants to or enjoys playing against...and then as you say post WC and 6n etc you can start to develop other aspects of the game...more attack cleverness etc.

Well, entertainment is high on my agenda to see but defence has to be high on what is required this WC. Sinfield has come with a burgeoning rep and that area of the team was shocking. Yes, fitness was blamed etc but it was a clear step down even from Jones last days.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 22 Jun 2023, 8:56 am

In terms of achievement I'm in broad agreement that I we probably won't make it beyond the semis but I think we should be getting there. I'd want Borthwick gone after the tournament if we're knocked out in the group, quarters well you can always get done by a team like Wales or Australia but he'd be limping to the 6Ns with knives out. I suspect the RFU keep him from QF onwards no matter what.

I'm not expecting much in terms of style. Kick the ball contest, play a bit in the opposition 22 off mistakes but other than that territory, can't see that bothering him, and don't see it as a longer term aim either.

Scrum was really good on the whole in the 6Ns; who knew actually doing training on it could improve that?! Lineout and rolling maul in particular will be the main thing for this tournament, and the 1 with the highest chance of improvement and impact on the score board. Wouldn't be surprised to see George come out as our top scorer.

by Geordie Thu 22 Jun 2023, 9:04 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Geordie wrote:
mountain man wrote:As it always was and always will be, the expectation on England is inevitably hyped by media. The fans know and deep down the players probably realise they are unlikely to win but the pressure to do well will be intense.

It is last chance saloon for some so that should be extra incentive. If England don't get out of group that's a failure however you look at it. Borthwick new to job etc but if they fail to progress he'll cop some grief and rightly so. It could be case England play well but likes of Japan and Arg just play better on day but if they don't get to knock out stage that would be grim.

Personally my expectations aren't high, I think they will get out of group but cannot see them going beyond SF at best.

I'm looking more towards next RWC cycle starting with 6N 2024 with a refreshed squad and build from there. By then maybe RFU and clubs sorted something out along financial deals etc so players have security, know their future in medium term is secure which can only help ease pressure on them and hence make them better players.

Have to say thats very much along the lines im feeling.

BUT i want to see the start of it through this world cup. As Sam mentioned above...start to develop a real ferocious tenacity and physicality, etc. We might not be the most breathtaking side...but by god just make us a team that noone wants to or enjoys playing against...and then as you say post WC and 6n etc you can start to develop other aspects of the game...more attack cleverness etc.

Well, entertainment is high on my agenda to see but defence has to be high on what is required this WC. Sinfield has come with a burgeoning rep and that area of the team was shocking. Yes, fitness was blamed etc but it was a clear step down even from Jones last days.

Yes but you dont run before you can walk.

AND

a team that shows up with a real physical game, maul, defence etc can be entertaining anyway to some of us Wink

PS i agree Sinfield has to prove himself.

by Mr Bounce Thu 22 Jun 2023, 9:05 am

The thing I want to know is if there's a nightmare scenario and England do not progress from the group, what is the RFU's contingency for that??

by No 7&1/2 Thu 22 Jun 2023, 9:15 am

Geordie wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Geordie wrote:
mountain man wrote:As it always was and always will be, the expectation on England is inevitably hyped by media. The fans know and deep down the players probably realise they are unlikely to win but the pressure to do well will be intense.

It is last chance saloon for some so that should be extra incentive. If England don't get out of group that's a failure however you look at it. Borthwick new to job etc but if they fail to progress he'll cop some grief and rightly so. It could be case England play well but likes of Japan and Arg just play better on day but if they don't get to knock out stage that would be grim.

Personally my expectations aren't high, I think they will get out of group but cannot see them going beyond SF at best.

I'm looking more towards next RWC cycle starting with 6N 2024 with a refreshed squad and build from there. By then maybe RFU and clubs sorted something out along financial deals etc so players have security, know their future in medium term is secure which can only help ease pressure on them and hence make them better players.

Have to say thats very much along the lines im feeling.

BUT i want to see the start of it through this world cup. As Sam mentioned above...start to develop a real ferocious tenacity and physicality, etc. We might not be the most breathtaking side...but by god just make us a team that noone wants to or enjoys playing against...and then as you say post WC and 6n etc you can start to develop other aspects of the game...more attack cleverness etc.

Well, entertainment is high on my agenda to see but defence has to be high on what is required this WC. Sinfield has come with a burgeoning rep and that area of the team was shocking. Yes, fitness was blamed etc but it was a clear step down even from Jones last days.

Yes but you dont run before you can walk.

AND

a team that shows up with a real physical game, maul, defence etc can be entertaining anyway to some of us

PS i agree Sinfield has to prove himself.

It'll be a novelty as a Newcastle fan!

by No 7&1/2 Thu 22 Jun 2023, 9:17 am

Mr Bounce wrote:The thing I want to know is if there's a nightmare scenario and England do not progress from the group, what is the RFU's contingency for that??

Sack Borthwick. Ignore the bad decision making from within the organisation. Scrabble for a new coach potentially trying to get a big name experienced coach again.

by Geordie Thu 22 Jun 2023, 9:19 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Geordie wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Geordie wrote:
mountain man wrote:As it always was and always will be, the expectation on England is inevitably hyped by media. The fans know and deep down the players probably realise they are unlikely to win but the pressure to do well will be intense.

It is last chance saloon for some so that should be extra incentive. If England don't get out of group that's a failure however you look at it. Borthwick new to job etc but if they fail to progress he'll cop some grief and rightly so. It could be case England play well but likes of Japan and Arg just play better on day but if they don't get to knock out stage that would be grim.

Personally my expectations aren't high, I think they will get out of group but cannot see them going beyond SF at best.

I'm looking more towards next RWC cycle starting with 6N 2024 with a refreshed squad and build from there. By then maybe RFU and clubs sorted something out along financial deals etc so players have security, know their future in medium term is secure which can only help ease pressure on them and hence make them better players.

Have to say thats very much along the lines im feeling.

BUT i want to see the start of it through this world cup. As Sam mentioned above...start to develop a real ferocious tenacity and physicality, etc. We might not be the most breathtaking side...but by god just make us a team that noone wants to or enjoys playing against...and then as you say post WC and 6n etc you can start to develop other aspects of the game...more attack cleverness etc.

Well, entertainment is high on my agenda to see but defence has to be high on what is required this WC. Sinfield has come with a burgeoning rep and that area of the team was shocking. Yes, fitness was blamed etc but it was a clear step down even from Jones last days.

Yes but you dont run before you can walk.

AND

a team that shows up with a real physical game, maul, defence etc can be entertaining anyway to some of us

PS i agree Sinfield has to prove himself.

It'll be a novelty as a Newcastle fan!

Well by all accounts expect a different Newcastle side next season. What we suspected is true. Codling is bringing his Oyannx game style to us. High tempo intensity and speed speed speed for 80 mins.

Hes absolutely smashing their fitness in pre season and working on speed speed speed.

Us falcons have been screaming for years that with type of players we have we should be playing a high tempo game etc. Finally they are in agreeance.

by Poorfour Thu 22 Jun 2023, 9:42 am

England should be very capable of topping their pool, even allowing for improvements in Argentina, Japan and Samoa, and in that case will likely face a very winnable QF against Wales [1]. Then you’re into knockout rugby and anything can happen. An exit in the semis is probably the most likely outcome.

Whatever happens, though, there will be a review and Borthwick will most probably stay in role. He was handed a mess for the 6N and will probably only have taken the job with the promise of considerable leeway for this RWC cycle. The RFU looks to have settled on him as their long term candidate, so there’s not a great deal of point bringing him in early only to discard him at the point he was expected to start.

I agree that several of the coaches have to prove themselves - I was lucky enough to attend an event with Kevin Sinfield a couple of months back, and the three things that came through most clearly are how inspirational he is as a human being, how clear his understanding of the game is…. And how honest he was about how difficult it was being dropped into the 6N with so little preparation time. He was very open about having to learn on the job and I suspect that most of the rest of the group were in the same boat. It’s a big step up, and they made mistakes. The question is whether they can show that they’ve learned from the experience. But we also need to be realistic: they will have had 5 competitive matches and a few warm ups to prepare for the tournament; their main competitors have had a full RWC cycle. England should be better than they were in the AIs or 6Ns, but that may not be enough to close the gap on Ireland, France or an AB’s side that seems to have found its best backline combo.

—-
[1] Who will be in a similar position having had an equally disrupted 6N, but time to play themselves into form in the tournament. What’s likely to count against them is their lack of strength in depth, especially given the withdrawal of several senior players already.

by mountain man Thu 22 Jun 2023, 10:27 am

I can't see the RFU sacking Borthwick if they fail to get out of group
Just don't see them doing that. Hopefully we don't get to find out

by Cumbrian Thu 22 Jun 2023, 1:58 pm

England Under-20s team

15 Sam Harris
14 Tobias Elliott
13 Rekeiti Ma'asi-White
12 Joseph Woodward
11 Joe Jenkins

10 Connor Slevin
9 Charlie Bracken

1 Asher Opoku-Fordjour
2 Finn Theobald-Thomas
3 Afolabi Fasogbon
4 Harvey Cuckson
5 Lewis Chessum (captain)
6 Finn Carnduff
7 Greg Fisilau
8 Chandler Cunningham-South

Replacements

16 Nathan Jibulu
17 Archie McArthur
18 James Halliwell
19 Nathan Michelow
20 Tristan Woodman
21 Nye Thomas
22 Louie Johnson
23 Jacob Cusick

Team has been named for the match against Ireland U20s on Saturday. K.O 12:30pm (our time), can't see it on telly anywhere, but it looks like it might be live streamed on the world rugby site:

https://www.world.rugby/tournaments/u20

by No 7&1/2 Thu 22 Jun 2023, 9:29 pm

So we weren't practicing scrums in training under Jones. Gleeson now says when he first took his job England weren't practicing any finishing moves in training. What were they doing.

by **Rugby Fan** Fri 23 Jun 2023, 12:08 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:So we weren't practicing scrums in training under Jones. Gleeson now says when he first took his job England weren't practicing any finishing moves in training. What were they doing.

While the headline makes it sound brainless, Gleeson explains it more clearly. It's another facet of Jones putting everything into World Cup preparation at the expense of other tournaments.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/06/22/england-rugby-martin-gleeson-interview/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr

With the World Cup little over two months away, time is fast running out for Steve Borthwick to fix an attack that Telegraph Sport can reveal was deliberately put on the backburner by Eddie Jones.

Speaking from his local cafe in Wigan, former attack coach Martin Gleeson provides new context on why England often flattered to deceive over the past four years and makes a number of surprising admissions. When he was appointed in 2021, England had no set structure in open attacking play. Nor did they ever practise red-zone finishing in training. In both instances, he provides a rationale that often got lost under the bombast of Jones’s rhetoric.

Odd as it sounds, most metrics showed that England’s attack was firing last autumn. They finished first among tier-one countries for collision dominance and were high up for line breaks and carries. The one glaring exception was their red-zone finishing, with England spending four minutes and 27 seconds inside Argentina’s 22 only to lose to the Pumas. More missed chances against South Africa would spell the end of the Jones era.

“We should have put serious points on Argentina,” Gleeson said. “We were going from halfway to the 22, no problem. This might sound strange but Eddie wants to work on things bit by bit so we had not really practised what we do in the 22.”

This sounds strange. What team does not practise scoring tries? Yet the time constraints of international coaching means that prioritisation has to occur. Gleeson’s brief was to get England into the 22. Finishing – the final piece of the jigsaw – was supposed to be honed in this summer’s World Cup training camp.

“Eddie has a saying that if you chase five rabbits you are not going to catch any of them,” Gleeson said. “You have to chase one rabbit at a time. You get four training sessions before a Six Nations.

“You can’t cover everything. You can’t. So you have to decide what to prioritise and what to focus on. England have always been this attritional set-piece team. We needed another string to the bow to win a World Cup. I have heard Steve [Borthwick] say he wants quick ball but how do you get quick ball? England had the slowest ball in the [2023] Six Nations.

“You can only get quick ball if you are like South Africa or France, who have got massive forwards who can smash people one on one. Or you can be more like Ireland, who don’t have those beasts but who have a really good tight, at-the-line-options attack which creates confusion in defence and gives you one on ones. That’s how Ireland get their quick ball. We wanted to get quick ball through good shape and numbers at the line like Ireland did and like Saracens are doing, but that process takes time.”

Gleeson had been coaching in rugby union for just two years when he came into the England set-up to replace Simon Amor. In that short time, he had developed a reputation as one of the most innovative coaches in the league, with Wasps reaching the 2020 Premiership final on the back of the league’s best attack.

What quickly became apparent to Gleeson was that England’s players were operating without a set attacking structure. This was less of an issue when Saracens dominated the England team. Yet once Jones broke up that hegemony, there was no collective understanding to fall back on.

“The thing with England is that they never had any kind of system or set-up,” Gleeson said. “The team was basically majority Saracens so we could keep going the Sarries way. When it came to open play where a lot of teams play a 1-3-3-1, there was never anything of that sort with England. It was just ‘play rugby’. What struck me through the [2021] autumn and the [2022] Six Nations was that we needed some kind of system for people to know where to be and what to do.

“If half your players are from one club then maybe you can get away with it, but when you have a lot of players from different teams who are not used to playing with each other then they need to know where approximately they should be in relation to each other and what options they have got on the inside and outside.”

The first building blocks were put in place for last year’s tour of Australia with a particular emphasis on the depth of the forwards so they were running onto the ball with momentum. England lost the first Test when too many ball-carriers got isolated, but tightening up their formation allowed them to dominate the gainline battle in the second Test. They continued to make strides with their forwards’ carrying and their own half entries, especially in the autumn draw against New Zealand, but time was up for Jones and hence his coaching staff.

“It all hinges on one or two parts of the game not clicking and one or two results,” Gleeson said. “Going into a World Cup with a full pre-season we would have been immeasurably better for having the opportunity to work on all aspects of our game.”

At Wasps, Gleeson had a reputation of being a mad professor, constantly questioning the union orthodoxy as an outsider from league. He nearly made the switch as a player in 2004 when Clive Woodward sent Joe Lydon to recruit him from St Helens but the Rugby Football Union did not act fast enough. Although it was Shaun Edwards who first got Gleeson interested in union, he was always drawn to the other side of the ball. “Defence wins championships but I was always more fascinated by the attack element,” he said.

He is not short of offers in both league and union. “I don’t want to make a rash decision,” Gleeson said. “I am open-minded and have really enjoyed speaking to coaches in both codes.”

Gleeson knew what he was letting himself in for by working under the workaholic Jones and he fully expects him to start lighting fires in Australia. “He’s intense and he can be ruthless at times,” Gleeson said. “I have worked under some ruthless coaches. Michael Maguire at Wigan was a psychopath. They are all psychopaths, to a degree. It is like those CEOs who have four hours’ sleep and still keep one eye open. Eddie is non-stop rugby. You would get 4am texts. It might be a clip of Japanese rugby on the WhatsApp group and he’ll ask what you see here?

“What Eddie is brilliant at – and I mean brilliant, the best I have ever seen – is he is a storyteller. He can paint a picture. He can command a room and sell a vision like no one else I have come across. But all coaches have shelf lives. Your voice loses its impact after a while.

“He’ll have a massive impact on the Wallabies come the World Cup. He will give them hope. He will give them a vision. He will give them confidence. They are a very good team and I have no doubt the response he will get off them will be huge.”

by No 7&1/2 Fri 23 Jun 2023, 6:11 am

Oh was it I didn't really do a really poor job and this is why post? I get it now, seems really sensible to leave attack and scrum to the last minute before a world cup!

Just reinforces for me it was the right decision to get rid of Jones. You can't be England manager and be OK to prepare a team so poorly for 3 years just for a roll the dice tournament in the 4th.

by formerly known as Sam Fri 23 Jun 2023, 8:47 am

Eddie does know how to prepare a team for the world cup. Got to give him that. International rugby exists outside of the world cup though, that isn't an excuse that will fly of you're England head coach.

by mountain man Fri 23 Jun 2023, 9:30 am

Well senior players also accountable, surely forwards and front row in particular should have addressed it at the time.

Anyway, history now.

by Geordie Fri 23 Jun 2023, 9:59 am

The Aussies will be a tough proposition this world cup.

But Eddie should have been gone from England sooner.

And yes...if i was Sinckler being groaned at about his performance, and yet they werent doing any scrum work etc...id be very vocal in trainnig...

by Poorfour Fri 23 Jun 2023, 10:52 am

mountain man wrote:Well senior players also accountable, surely forwards and front row in particular should have addressed it at the time.

Anyway, history now.

How would you propose they did that? Confront Eddie, who has form as long as his arm for unceremoniously dumping players who question his methods? Sneak off and hold secret scrummaging sessions out of hours?

Gleeson's interview is credible for me - it's consistent with the stats and what we saw on the pitch, it's consistent with what we know about Eddie's focus on the RWC. It's surprising that he ran without an attacking structure for so long - but then Ford and Farrell had played together so much that perhaps the gap only became evident later in the process. It makes me wonder a bit how much Ford's injury contributed to Eddie's demise.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 23 Jun 2023, 10:54 am

I dunno Jones doesn't appear to be a guy who likes too much challenge from players. Was it Care who said something in training before being dropped out of sight with a word or 2 of advice after the Japan game?

by mountain man Fri 23 Jun 2023, 11:37 am

Poorfour wrote:
mountain man wrote:Well senior players also accountable, surely forwards and front row in particular should have addressed it at the time.

Anyway, history now.

How would you propose they did that? Confront Eddie, who has form as long as his arm for unceremoniously dumping players who question his methods? Sneak off and hold secret scrummaging sessions out of hours?

Gleeson's interview is credible for me - it's consistent with the stats and what we saw on the pitch, it's consistent with what we know about Eddie's focus on the RWC. It's surprising that he ran without an attacking structure for so long - but then Ford and Farrell had played together so much that perhaps the gap only became evident later in the process. It makes me wonder a bit how much Ford's injury contributed to Eddie's demise.

If not Jones then forwards coach. Come on, these aren't U18s who are in first camp as Eng players we're talking about senior, experienced internationals. Maybe they said nothing as they were confident they didn't need scrum practice but I think that's unlikely.
I cannot believe if scrums weren't trained for in Eng camp and players thought they should be doing that they wouldn't say something. If they didn't then that is p*ss poor by professional athletes.
Pro rugby players by and large aren't shy, introverted wall flowers.
Plus if the forwards decided something needed to be said they could/should say it collectively. Even Jones not going to drop first choice front row just for querying why scrums weren't trained.

by Poorfour Fri 23 Jun 2023, 12:37 pm

Pro rugby players are also guys in their 20s and early 30s who've these days spent their entire careers from mid teens working inside coaching structures where the ability to follow the coaches' instructions is the key to advancement.

They're in a competitive environment where there are always alternatives who could be selected at a moment's notice; very few players are secure in their place in the squad.

The truth is that whatever assumptions we make about how international level coaches and players work, we actually know very little unles we know someone who has first hand experience of that environment.

Eddie Jones has forgotten more about coaching than any of us will ever know. Including, it seems, the need to balance immediate performances with the longer term - because he consistently goes through a patch in the middle of the RWC cycle where performances wobble and twice he has lost his job over it. That seems to be a risk that he takes over and over - it (almost) worked for him in 2003 and 2019, but cost him in 2005 and 2022.

Surely it's better to check your incredulity for a moment and accept the interview at face value as an insight into how top level coaching works and the tradeoffs and compromises that coaches need to make?

by No 7&1/2 Fri 23 Jun 2023, 12:46 pm

Sinckler said they would go through training without scrummaging and the players would pull, or try to out of the bad in the match. When you've seen a player like Care who was pretty much an ever present challenge and be dropped would you really want to say anything?

by mountain man Fri 23 Jun 2023, 12:48 pm

Surely it's better to check your incredulity for a moment and accept the interview at face value as an insight into how top level coaching works and the tradeoffs and compromises that coaches need to make?

Well no because scrum wasn't good enough.
However, what you say is correct in that not being part of it we cannot know what went on for sure.

I guess we need to wait until players retire and then maybe get full story.

But the facts are the England scrum wasn't good enough and apparently they didnt train it.

And likewise with not practising moves once in 22.

In which case incredulity totally justified.

by king_carlos Fri 23 Jun 2023, 4:21 pm

Poorfour wrote:Eddie Jones has forgotten more about coaching than any of us will ever know. Including, it seems, the need to balance immediate performances with the longer term - because he consistently goes through a patch in the middle of the RWC cycle where performances wobble and twice he has lost his job over it. That seems to be a risk that he takes over and over - it (almost) worked for him in 2003 and 2019, but cost him in 2005 and 2022.

It also worked with Japan pretty spectacularly given where he received them to be fair. They went through some games with really poor performances as they tried to build that completely new style tailored to their talents.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I dunno Jones doesn't appear to be a guy who likes too much challenge from players. Was it Care who said something in training before being dropped out of sight with a word or 2 of advice after the Japan game?

A lots been made of that, largely due to Care being on a podcast. The point I always make re Care at international level is that his career has spanned 3 (now briefly 4) England coaches yet across all of them I believe the most games he's started in a row is still 8 under Lancaster. The 2014 Six Nations into that summers NZ tour. It's very unusual for a halfback that struggles to hold a starting shirt that much win 87 caps in international rugby. Personally, I'm of the view that England probably got the most they could from Care's strengths given his game does have glaring weaknesses - relatively poor kicking and basically no defensive output.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 23 Jun 2023, 5:31 pm

It's fair that some don't rate Care particularly as a starter for England however I do think he was dropped for challenging Jones not because of his game.

by Poorfour Fri 23 Jun 2023, 6:22 pm

Of course, it’s also very unusual for an international player of that longevity to find their playing career coincides exactly with the player who becomes the record cap holder in their position. It’s not as if Care was perennially the backup to a string of other players; he was perennially the backup to England’s all time most capped male player. (Oddly enough, a similar thing happened to Kyran Bracken because he happened to play at the same time as Matt Dawson. They were England’s most capped scrum halves before Youngs and Care).

As it happens, given we have a player of Youngs’ reliability, I think Care was in many ways better used as a finisher. His value to England was (and may still be) in being able to come on late in a game and change the story. He saved Englands bacon that way a fair few times.

And Care wasn’t dropped for loss of form or because there was a much better player available. He was part of a winning side and both creating and scoring tries - but he wasn’t playing the Eddie game plan. You only have to consider that his replacement was Willi Heinz - picked for his efficiency and ability to execute rather than any flair of his own.

by doctor_grey Fri 23 Jun 2023, 6:43 pm

If half of this is true, then Eddie was guilty of negligence:
No scrum training?
No practice moves for attacking inside the 22?
No feedback loop from the senior players to the coach?
Seems almost impossible to believe, doesn't it? What else wasn't done?
I see a few pro sport teams from the inside and that describes organisational failure. Now, I am not saying we know for sure this is all true. But it certainly has credibility since the scrums have not been good and England are clueless in the red zone. And we have heard for 20+ years Eddie is prickly with feedback.

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