England's Summer of Cricket 2023, Featuring The Ashes

First topic message reminder :

June 1st-June 4th: One Test v Ireland (four days)
June 16th-July 31st: Five Tests v Australia
August 30th-September 5th: Four T20s v New Zealand
September 8th-September 15th: Four ODIs v New Zealand
September 20th-September 26th: Three ODIs v Ireland

England try to wrest the Ashes back from Australia, in a series which could be the greatest since 2005. Australia have currently held the urn for just over five years, which is the longest spell of urn-holding since the 1989-2005 period.

Ireland also visit for a test before that, and then there's some limited-overs games squashed into the last days of summer.

I am a Moeen fan, but would fall on the side of not going to call him up (same with Rashid). Both have made their decision re: test cricket, and have other commitments they would have been preparing for anyways in white ball cricket, and definitely in the case of Rashid, I'd rather he saves his shoulder for the 50 over World Cup later in the year.

Also I see Hazlewood has been ruled out of the WTC Final for the Aussies - it should be noted that he has barely played much cricket for the last two years now, and while Boland/Neser are in reserve, both are a very marked drop off from Hazlewood for me, and of course it eats into already thin seamer reserves for the Aussies. One to keep an eye on...

Hazelwood hasn't played back to back F-C games since the Border-Gavaskar Trophy in 2021. That was a new stat to me courtesy of Alex Malcolm on The Grade Cricketer!

I'd also completely forgotten that Warner actually got a fifty in every Test of the 2015 series as well until Malcolm corrected Ian Higgins on Warner never looking like getting runs over here. Given Warner has had an expected decline with age and given how dire his 2019 series was I'm not saying I think he'll get bulk runs this summer. I just thought it was interesting that the most recent series being so poor had basically erased that from my memory. Looking back at the scorecards from 2015, I'd rip your arm off if you told me either England opener could score a fifty in every Test and over 400 runs this summer.

Don't disagree, but surprised how quickly and far out of favour Bess has fallen.
Ahmed seems the most likely replacement, but putting someone that raw under the Ashes spotlight seems like a mistake. I'd go Livingstone with plenty of Root.

Bess' career was over when KP_Fan declared himself to be a better bowler. Poor Bess. On a serious note, he's averaging close to 50 in Division Two this season, and his average was over 40 in Division One last year.

I think what will happen is Moeen will get the call. He's probably already had the call. Or maybe it's a WhatsApp these days. They'll ask him to come out of retirement. Swing the blade like you're in the IPL and give the ball some rip. If Moeen accepts he'll be in the squad. They'd probably announce it later today or tomorrow. If Moeen declines they'll be looking elsewhere. And we might wait a little longer.

It may also be important to remember that England are touring India this winter. They'll want two spinners for the tests, so Leach's injury may inadvertently help England identify the second spinner for this winter, presuming Leach comes back for that series. That's another reason to dodge Moeen, because he's a short-term option, but if Dawson or Ahmed or Jacks or even Livingstone takes Leach's spot then they may underline their credentials this summer.

I had the theory that Root considered himself a better option than Bess when he was selected, and that he moved to Yorkshire to try and get on his good side.
Presumably someone must have liked him though, and he has enough recent-ish Test experience that it's notable that he's not even on the BBC poll.

I think many of us thought Root looked a more reliable option than Bess after that bizarre game in Sri Lanka where he took a fifer whilst barely landing them on the strip!

The move from Somerset was entirely due to being behind Leach in their attack though I think.

Bess seems to be becoming more of an allrounder for Yorkshire. It wouldn't surprise me if his batting developed to be his stronger suit as a CC player. He has ability there and a decent technique.

I'm not sure Bess should be entirely written off, he is only 25 year old still (amazingly!) and as we know, spinners tend to get better with age as they go on and gain more experience...but there's no way he should be picked as the replacement here, having not you know, made that improvement yet!

Seen no nuggets of news yet - this is a real spanner in the works. Obviously there are better players to lose to injury in the team, but Leach is probably the one role/player we have no direct replacement for at the moment.

I've spoken to Stuart, and we've already started pencilling in the Asterix to this series btw

Looking through former Ashes series scorecards it did drop with a fair clang that a lot of this England sides best players aren't the youngest. It's one of those things that I'm aware of but push to the background. In a way Anderson being 40 can make me think others who are into their early thirties are spring chickens.

When discussing the England white ball side a bit back I believe it was Olly who used the phrase, "sneakily old", which is sort of how I felt realising how similar many names are from the 2015 series.

Anderson, Broad, Root, Bairstow, Stokes, Wood

It's not just the number of them but also how many I feel are players England will need to have good series to succeed in 2023. 2 of our best 3 bowlers and 2 of our best three batters in there. Plus our one standing genuine quick. If Stokes were firing it'd 3 of our best 4 batters, 1 of our best 2 players and the allrounder that adds direly needed balance but he looks a fair way off as discussed already.

Brook coming through is gargantuan for the batting in this regard. He looks a special talent and one England frankly needed.

Robinson looking like a potential attack leader is brilliant but he is 29 rather than early twenties.

It really doesn't feel out of the realm of possibility that this could be the last Test summer we see of Anderson, Broad and Stokes. There are going to be some very big holes left in the Test side as these players age out.

Who keeps disliking Carlos' posts?

Anyway, just had a rifle through the odds for the Ashes. Australia are now, perhaps unsurprisingly, narrow favourites to win the series. A few bookmakers are offering odds on some fun markets.

Top England runscorer - Root 6/4; Brook 9/2; Pope 5/1; Duckett 5/1; Stokes 7/1; Crawley 9/1; Bairstow 12/1. Root the obvious and justifiable favourite, but I find the very long odds on Bairstow to be surprising. While we're not entirely sure how he'll comeback from his injury, he did average 75 and score 4 centuries last summer! Stokes and Crawley should be kept well clear of.

Top Australian runscorer - Smith 6/4; Labuschagne 10/3; Khawaja 13/2; Warner 8/1; Head 10/1; Green 22/1; Carey 40/1. Again, Smith the obvious favourite, but Labuschagne's good value at 10/3. Head, averaging over 50 in tests since November 2021, is perhaps the most likely outsider if both Smith and Labuschagne, somehow, flop.

Top England wicket taker - Robinson 13/5; Broad 3/1; Anderson 7/2; Wood 5/1; Woakes 15/2; Tongue 12/1; Potts 25/1; Stokes 100/1; Root 200/1. Difficult to assess because we can't be sure of how many tests each bowler will play, but Anderson looks a fantastic price at 7/2. If he plays three tests this summer he'll be close to it. Woakes, also, great value and still underrated by many in England. He may end up playing 4/5 tests this summer and end high in the wickets. Or perhaps Root will spin England to glory?

Top Australia wicket taker - Cummins 15/8; Starc 11/4; Lyon 4/1; Hazlewood 9/2; Boland 16/1; Green 33/1. Can't really look beyond Cummins for this accolade. Hazlewood is unlikely to play enough, if any, of the tests. Boland's a good outsider, because if Hazlewood is crocked for the series then Boland may play a prominent role. Interesting to note the disparity on Boland's odds - Bet365 have him at 9/2, but Paddy Power/Betfair have him out at 16/1.

Overall top series run scorer - Smith 10/3; Root 10/3; Labuschagne 5/1; Brook 9/1; Pope 9/1; Duckett 9/1; Khawaja 12/1; Stokes 12/1; Warner 14/1; Crawley 14/1; Head 14/1; Bairstow 22/1; Green 45/1; Carey 100/1. You'd reckon on this being a battle of the big three, but Bairstow and Head are considerably generous on this market. But I do think Smith will triumph and 10/3 is worth it.

Overall top series wicket taker - Cummins 9/2; Robinson 6/1; Starc 6/1; Wood 6/1; Broad 13/2; Anderson 7/1; Hazlewood 9/1; Lyon 9/1; Woakes 14/1; Boland 35/1; Green 66/1; Potts 100/1. Woakes and Boland very attractive at these prices for a punt, but I can't look beyond Cummins to get the most wickets. Robinson is too fragile to rely on.

Other interesting things I've noted. Bet365 are as short as 11/8 on there being zero draws in this series, but SkyBet are putting no draws in the series at 5/1, which seems a good offer. There is likely to be one draw simply because of the English rain, but if it stays away it's difficult to see any test going the full five days. Also SkyBet are going for 50/1 on there being a treble ton at any point. I could see Smith nudging and flicking his way there. SkyBet have got a long request a bet section and the 25/1 on Crawley getting three ducks (or more) in the series, cruelly, stood out. If you fancy England to win the series, Root to be the highest England run-scorer, and Robinson to be the highest England wicket-taker, that's 33/1.

Hope you guys don't mind me going back to the Ireland Test with the odd query and thought. I was out of the country and didn't see any of the game but followed the scores and some of the reports.

1. How was Bairstow's keeping? This was a particluar issue in the light of Foakes' axing before I went away but seems to have been little mentioned over the three days of play. I regard that as encouraging, yes? Assume a lot more would have been said if he'd not been up to scratch. I did though note Duty's criticism about a couple of poor reviews; that was something where Foakes let himself and England down, hopefully not a continuing pattern.

2. I picked up some surprise about Root bowling. That was actually something I expected and thought about at the time (ie prior to Luckless Leach's latest setback). In a 90 over bowling day (hopefully we'll get that or close to it) and Stokes unable to turn his arm (as expected at least some days), I was thinking something like 23 from Leach and 19 from each of the 3 seamers. That would still leave Root needing to make up 10. 

Root's Ashes spells could be significant. My original thinking was that a return of circa 0/22 or 1/36 from 10 would be more than fine. However, it would be worrying if he goes wicketless for say 45 or more from 10 and could tilt things (? further) Australia's way.

Lo and behold, Root bowled exactly 10 second dig and took a wicket. However, he went for 59! We can't afford that run rate against the Aussies.

3. With only 5 England players needing to bat against Ireland, our tail made not a jot of difference. However, with Broad listed at 8, it would have looked very vulnerable against the likes of Cummins and Starc. Sure, you have to pick your best bowlers but you still hope some can bat a bit!

Duty281 wrote:Who keeps disliking Carlos' posts?
 ...

I just noticed that on the last post and wa concerned I might have done it by accident when 'liking'. Pretty sure I didn't.

Duty281 wrote:I think what will happen is Moeen will get the call. He's probably already had the call. Or maybe it's a WhatsApp these days. They'll ask him to come out of retirement. Swing the blade like you're in the IPL and give the ball some rip. If Moeen accepts he'll be in the squad. They'd probably announce it later today or tomorrow. If Moeen declines they'll be looking elsewhere. And we might wait a little longer..

Yep, Moeen got the call. He's considering it. God help us.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/65816609

Moeen Ali is considering an approach from England to come out of Test retirement to play in the Ashes as a replacement for the injured Jack Leach.

BBC Sport understands Moeen, 35, was called by captain Ben Stokes after fellow spinner Leach was ruled out.

Presumably we'll find out tomorrow, Wednesday at the latest I'd imagine, whether he's in or not. Who on earth wrote this BBC nonsense, by the way?

Moeen, though, would be an ideal replacement - there is argument to suggest he is still the premier spinner in England, even if he has not played a red-ball game since his last Test in September 2021.

He has taken 195 Test wickets - only two England spinners have taken more - and his five hundreds would bring runs to the lower-order.

Premier spinner in England, my foot. He averaged 50 with the ball last time he played a series in England, and Australia destroyed him in Birmingham in 2019. The 'premier spinner' would not average such a figure, and if he were the 'premier spinner' presumably he wouldn't have been left in the cold for so long. He's also gone 50 innings without a test century, so I doubt his five hundreds will count for much. It's probably more pertinent to point out his test batting average since the start of 2018 is 16.33, but Moeen supporters seem to think that he's cryogenically frozen in 2016 and will deliver those halcyon days once more.

Top comment on the BBC story says that Moeen is a 'legend'. It's ridiculous, like being in the Twilight Zone. He had a couple of good years for the England test team, and has delivered a few half-decent knocks in limited overs cricket (though those are increasingly rarer these days), but he's not a legend of English cricket by any stretch of the imagination.

Mo only had one good year with the bat. That year was of course fantastic but he's never really been an allrounder in Tests other than that aberration. He had four good years with the ball though. So to say he only had two good years is unfair even with your raging dislike of him, duty.

It's also somewhat worth noting that in that 2021 home series against India after the recall that Jadeja took 6 for 222 in the same three Tests. When a modern great in Jadeja is averaging 37 against England's playing of spin it probably wasn't prime conditions in fairness! I don't actually remember Mo bowling terribly throughout either. From memory he offered spells of decent bowling with too many wayward balls (basically what Mo's usually done!) in T2 and T3, then got smashed in T4 by a number of Indian batters who are excellent players of spin.

In his only other Test of 2021 he took 8 wickets in Chennai. Even with the customary high economy in one innings I honestly felt he out bowled Leach in that Test. Then with no Tests played in 2020 his next most recent is 2019 and 2018 where he averaged just under 29 in both years. So it's not like he hasn't performed since 2016.

Were Leach fit it wouldn't even be getting mentioned of course. Leach has improved a lot as we've all discussed especially with the adjustments in his action to get drift and dip which make a gigantic difference to his ability when it isn't ragging.

Without Leach it's a very bare cupboard though. As said before I think Ahmed would be even more inconsistent with bat and ball than Mo at this stage of his development. I'm no fan at all of Jacks or Livi being used or talk of Stokes opening to accommodate it. That leaves Dawson as probably the best option from the CC for my money. Or recalling Mo. I think Dawson is an underrated cricketer and he's probably where I'd ere if the seamers are bowling more attacking lines and lengths. That in itself is very underwhelming though and given the bare cupboard I don't hate the idea of Mo being in the fold. Given 4 of Australia's top 7 will be lefties an offie wouldn't be the worst asset either.

As for BBC HYS, it's best not to read it. A lowlight from the other day was the top comment and replies below under a thread about the Ashes squad. To paraphrase:

"Why isn't Foakes there?" (lots of thumbs up)
"His dad doesn't play golf with the selectors" (lots of thumbs up)
"I don't think Bairstow's dad has been playing golf with them recently either" (a few thumbs up from the limited folk there that actually know cricket well enough to fathom the idiocy of the previous reply getting upvoted in the circumstances)

Across all the sports they are opened up on HYS contains some of the worst informed commenting on sport I've ever seen.

Well at least all this injury/selection question stuff is giving us all plenty to talk about while we wait for the action to kick off

I share KC's amusement at BBC HYS :  I confess I am drawn to reading the blessed stuff out of a sort of bemused fascination even as I wonder how so much ignorance can be mixed in with the relentless trolling : some posters have been issuing the exact same nonsense soundbite on every thread for months . Amazed they have the patience. Perhaps they are actually AIs with nothing better to do ?

Ah the Moeen comeback theory - inevitable I guess. Is Stokes really so keen to be chasing a reluctant , twice retired player of relatively advanced years with a modest at best record against Australia ? Arguably a bit of a slap in the face to those spinners currently actually striving to advance in the red ball game - if understandable given the paucity of notable current candidates.

Look , I do like Moeen ; agree he was at times roughly treated by selectors ; and think if he were in the form of a few years ago then he would certainly be the best option available. But I fear his best days in this format are long gone ; and even if the new spirit of Stokes/McCullum might conceivably be able to resurrect his old magic it could surely only do so if he were absolutely sure in his own mind that he really wanted to be back in the cauldron.  His indecision over availability and self-imposed absence from red ball cricket for the last two years doesn't suggest a great deal of enthusiasm for a return.

Also question why he would even talk to the press about being approached and state he was "considering" accepting an offer from Stokes ? Reasonable to be flattered at the call but surely if you have to "consider" it then better to keep quiet until you've made the decision ... this "maybe I will" business isn't inspiring much confidence in me for one. And confidence - or the lack of it - has always been the thing which I think has at times undermined Moeen - especially against Australia. Honestly reckon if he wasn't immediately ready to snap Stokes hand off taking the offer he should politely decline and let England work on Plan B.

Sorry if that sounds like a big rant against Moeen. If he does come back and performs well I will be both delighted and among the first to congratulate him -  I just don't see it as at all likely ; and I don't think having this "possibility" hanging over the squad even for a few days is particularly good for morale leading into the Ashes. But as always I am content to leave it all up to Stokes as he hasn't got much wrong lately...

And welcome back guildford !  Missed some fun if low-pressure batting from your Surrey lad Pope - and Duckett ; and the welcome sight of another England bowler putting his hand up with a decent first effort. Apart from the wickets he took , Tongue impressed me with his ability to not just give the speed gun a bit of a work out (touching 90 a few times) but also maintain very decent pace consistently over second and third spells - and they weren't short spells either , eight and seven overs I think. Not saying he's about to leapfrog Mark Wood for the pace option but he does look a bit of a prospect that no one would have predicted even a month ago.

Thought Bairstow kept pretty well ; not too rusty despite not having done the job for England for quite a while. No mistakes that I saw  - and I am sure if I'd missed any the HYS mob would have been lining up to kick his head in  None of the catches were particularly difficult but he dealt pretty well with the odd ball which did that peculiar Lord's thing of moving around after passing the bat. Did a good job keeping up a constant stream of chatter to the point that some watchers might have wanted to turn off the stump mikes ...

England had a mixed run on reviews. Burned three over the two innings v successfully overturning one not out call. Plus failing a couple of other but only on umpires call. Of the three "bad" calls : the first might be put down to a collective desire to get Tongue his first wicket and the other two were off Stuart Broad (surprise !) . They do need to be careful in this area but they've had many worse matches in this regard.

Root I thought bowled quite well at first. Got a handy wicket , then came in for a fair bit of punishment from Irish batsmen who were commendably ready to score at every opportunity rather than fiddle about blocking. Stokes was after wickets not economy so he didn't give him a huge amount of defensive field placings ; so perhaps we shouldn't read too much into his rather expensive analysis. But I'd have to agree he didn't exactly do anything to suggest he could bowl twenty overs a day to Australia on a flat pitch !

Yes we didn't see the tail bat - or try to. But at least with Leach now sidelined it seems likely whoever replaces him will be a serious number eight so that is perhaps some compensation for losing the number one spinner.

Oh , and Stokes got a bit of flak in some quarters for declaring too early. Who'd be a captain , eh ? But at least he didn't get a chance to employ a night watchman...

I am looking forward to the Ashes...quality test cricket...will Bazballing continue? and will it work?

Leach was trusted more by Stokes than the captain before him and he is out.....and I hear Moeen Ali will be called out of retirement...the Ghost who refuses to die

Aus will get tough preparation thru the WTC final, while Eng's test vs Ire was feebler preparation then county FC games
But Eng are coming from the middle of their FC season, so they should be better prepared in general.

Aussie bowling is superior and the way to counter that would be to prepare seaming pitches that prop up the Eng medium pacers to a higher level of potency.

Will PJ run his competition ? I would be looking forward to it.

You can see what a big blow the loss of Leach is that people have been genuinely suggesting playing Liam Livingstone as a front line Test spinner. He's far from England's best player but may well be their least replaceable.

I think I'd call Dawson up to the squad with the intention being to play 4 seamers and Stokes/Root unless it looks like a real turner and to bring Dawson in if that is the case. I don't think there's any real good option though.

KP_fan wrote:I am looking forward to the Ashes...quality test cricket...will Bazballing continue? and will it work?

Leach was trusted more by Stokes than the captain before him and he is out.....and I hear Moeen Ali  will be called out of retirement...the Ghost who refuses to die

Aus will get tough preparation  thru the WTC final, while Eng's test vs Ire was feebler preparation then county FC games
But Eng are coming from the middle of their FC season, so they should be better prepared in general.

Aussie bowling is superior and the way to counter that would be to prepare seaming pitches that prop up the Eng medium pacers to a higher level of potency.

Will PJ run his competition ? I would be looking forward to it.

KP_f, If he doesn't, I'm sure you can claim to have won it. 

Cricinfo saying that if Moeen doesn't come back, Will Jacks, Rehan Ahmed and Liam Livingstone are viewed as the next options for consideration, with Liam Dawson only an outside shot. Conversely, the Guardian claims that Dawson, Ahmed and Jacks are viewed as the alternatives, with no mention of Livingstone.

Apparently England are off for some team bonding trip over the weekend to Loch Lomond, so presumably England need to name the replacement by then. If Moeen declines, it may be a bit of a blow to the confidence of Jacks/Ahmed/Livingstone/Dawson, knowing they weren't the preferred option to replace Leach.

Duty281 wrote:Cricinfo saying that if Moeen doesn't come back, Will Jacks, Rehan Ahmed and Liam Livingstone are viewed as the next options for consideration, with Liam Dawson only an outside shot. Conversely, the Guardian claims that Dawson, Ahmed and Jacks are viewed as the alternatives, with no mention of Livingstone.

Apparently England are off for some team bonding trip over the weekend to Loch Lomond, so presumably England need to name the replacement by then. If Moeen declines, it may be a bit of a blow to the confidence of Jacks/Ahmed/Livingstone/Dawson, knowing they weren't the preferred option to replace Leach.

Or conversely, a chance to show the selectors why you should have been picked in the first place and a chance to nail a spot in the side. Depends on the character I guess.....

guildfordbat wrote:

KP_fan wrote:I am looking forward to the Ashes...quality test cricket...will Bazballing continue? and will it work?

Leach was trusted more by Stokes than the captain before him and he is out.....and I hear Moeen Ali  will be called out of retirement...the Ghost who refuses to die

Aus will get tough preparation  thru the WTC final, while Eng's test vs Ire was feebler preparation then county FC games
But Eng are coming from the middle of their FC season, so they should be better prepared in general.

Aussie bowling is superior and the way to counter that would be to prepare seaming pitches that prop up the Eng medium pacers to a higher level of potency.

Will PJ run his competition ? I would be looking forward to it.

KP_f, If he doesn't, I'm sure you can claim to have won it. 

Yes, I'll run it, KP_f.

I was tinkering with the idea of doing one for the WTC Final... but that's a bit of 'work' for only 5 days max.
The 5 test Ashes series is no problem though. I'll get the thread up and running around Monday morning latest; Sunday evening your time.

Guildford, I've already penciled in half of your picks. Smith, Labuschagne, Cummins, Starc, Pope, YJB, Broad and Root... as one of your bowlers.
I assume you're going for England 3-1 as well. Let me know if you want to tweak anything on the day, or if there are any more possible Surrey selections out of left field none of us know about.  

Alfie, you know you're on top - so please don't risk anything or do anything stupid.
Steady as she goes, yeah? We're all relying on you to set the pace for the whole 5 matches.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Cricinfo saying that if Moeen doesn't come back, Will Jacks, Rehan Ahmed and Liam Livingstone are viewed as the next options for consideration, with Liam Dawson only an outside shot. Conversely, the Guardian claims that Dawson, Ahmed and Jacks are viewed as the alternatives, with no mention of Livingstone.

Apparently England are off for some team bonding trip over the weekend to Loch Lomond, so presumably England need to name the replacement by then. If Moeen declines, it may be a bit of a blow to the confidence of Jacks/Ahmed/Livingstone/Dawson, knowing they weren't the preferred option to replace Leach.

Or conversely, a chance to show the selectors why you should have been picked in the first place and a chance to nail a spot in the side. Depends on the character I guess.....

Given almost all cricketers get their Test starts as injury replacements it's not like knowing you weren't first choice going in is an unusual situation anyway!

Pal Joey wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

KP_fan wrote:I am looking forward to the Ashes...quality test cricket...will Bazballing continue? and will it work?

Leach was trusted more by Stokes than the captain before him and he is out.....and I hear Moeen Ali  will be called out of retirement...the Ghost who refuses to die

Aus will get tough preparation  thru the WTC final, while Eng's test vs Ire was feebler preparation then county FC games
But Eng are coming from the middle of their FC season, so they should be better prepared in general.

Aussie bowling is superior and the way to counter that would be to prepare seaming pitches that prop up the Eng medium pacers to a higher level of potency.

Will PJ run his competition ? I would be looking forward to it.

KP_f, If he doesn't, I'm sure you can claim to have won it. 

Yes, I'll run it, KP_f.

I was tinkering with the idea of doing one for the WTC Final... but that's a bit of 'work' for only 5 days max.
The 5 test Ashes series is no problem though. I'll get the thread up and running around Monday morning latest; Sunday evening your time.

Guildford, I've already penciled in half of your picks. Smith, Labuschagne, Cummins, Starc, Pope, YJB, Broad and Root... as one of your bowlers.
I assume you're going for England 3-1 as well. Let me know if you want to tweak anything on the day, or if there are any more possible Surrey selections out of left field none of us know about.  

Alfie, you know you're on top - so please don't risk anything or do anything stupid.
Steady as she goes, yeah? We're all relying on you to set the pace for the whole 5 matches.

Thx.....It will be fun...you could do it for WTC+ Ashes tests a one package, if it's not too late

Pal Joey wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

KP_fan wrote:I am looking forward to the Ashes...quality test cricket...will Bazballing continue? and will it work?

Leach was trusted more by Stokes than the captain before him and he is out.....and I hear Moeen Ali  will be called out of retirement...the Ghost who refuses to die

Aus will get tough preparation  thru the WTC final, while Eng's test vs Ire was feebler preparation then county FC games
But Eng are coming from the middle of their FC season, so they should be better prepared in general.

Aussie bowling is superior and the way to counter that would be to prepare seaming pitches that prop up the Eng medium pacers to a higher level of potency.

Will PJ run his competition ? I would be looking forward to it.

KP_f, If he doesn't, I'm sure you can claim to have won it. 

Yes, I'll run it, KP_f.

I was tinkering with the idea of doing one for the WTC Final... but that's a bit of 'work' for only 5 days max.
The 5 test Ashes series is no problem though. I'll get the thread up and running around Monday morning latest; Sunday evening your time.

Guildford, I've already penciled in half of your picks. Smith, Labuschagne, Cummins, Starc, Pope, YJB, Broad and Root... as one of your bowlers.
I assume you're going for England 3-1 as well. Let me know if you want to tweak anything on the day, or if there are any more possible Surrey selections out of left field none of us know about.  

Alfie, you know you're on top - so please don't risk anything or do anything stupid.
Steady as she goes, yeah? We're all relying on you to set the pace for the whole 5 matches.

 Wonderful stuff, Joey! Only missing reference to Jamie Smith.

Duty281 wrote:Cricinfo saying that if Moeen doesn't come back, Will Jacks, Rehan Ahmed and Liam Livingstone are viewed as the next options for consideration, with Liam Dawson only an outside shot. Conversely, the Guardian claims that Dawson, Ahmed and Jacks are viewed as the alternatives, with no mention of Livingstone.

Apparently England are off for some team bonding trip over the weekend to Loch Lomond, so presumably England need to name the replacement by then. If Moeen declines, it may be a bit of a blow to the confidence of Jacks/Ahmed/Livingstone/Dawson, knowing they weren't the preferred option to replace Leach.

Ray Illingworth, Bobby Simpson, Imran Khan and Moeen Ali...the "legends" of the game requested by the selectors to come out of retirement as their Motherland / Fatherland couldn't do without their services

Duty281 wrote:Cricinfo saying that if Moeen doesn't come back, Will Jacks, Rehan Ahmed and Liam Livingstone are viewed as the next options for consideration, with Liam Dawson only an outside shot. Conversely, the Guardian claims that Dawson, Ahmed and Jacks are viewed as the alternatives, with no mention of Livingstone.

Apparently England are off for some team bonding trip over the weekend to Loch Lomond, so presumably England need to name the replacement by then. If Moeen declines, it may be a bit of a blow to the confidence of Jacks/Ahmed/Livingstone/Dawson, knowing they weren't the preferred option to replace Leach.

If only Fred Trueman was still around to pass a comment .... 

Duty281 wrote:Cricinfo saying that if Moeen doesn't come back, Will Jacks, Rehan Ahmed and Liam Livingstone are viewed as the next options for consideration, with Liam Dawson only an outside shot. Conversely, the Guardian claims that Dawson, Ahmed and Jacks are viewed as the alternatives, with no mention of Livingstone.

Apparently England are off for some team bonding trip over the weekend to Loch Lomond, so presumably England need to name the replacement by then. If Moeen declines, it may be a bit of a blow to the confidence of Jacks/Ahmed/Livingstone/Dawson, knowing they weren't the preferred option to replace Leach.

Fingers crossed someone's checked those old wooden trestles on the water ski jump.

No further injuries so far today I take it?

king_carlos wrote:even with your raging dislike of him, duty.

Worth saying I have no actual dislike of Moeen. If his test career had finished in Birmingham in 2019, it would have been fair enough. But the bizarre recalls (here and India 2021), the vast overrating of him by many cricket fans, someone on here actually called Moeen one of the greatest white ball players England has ever had...it's all ludicrous. I'd feel the same way if people were so keen on dragging Bess back into the set-up.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Cricinfo saying that if Moeen doesn't come back, Will Jacks, Rehan Ahmed and Liam Livingstone are viewed as the next options for consideration, with Liam Dawson only an outside shot. Conversely, the Guardian claims that Dawson, Ahmed and Jacks are viewed as the alternatives, with no mention of Livingstone.

Apparently England are off for some team bonding trip over the weekend to Loch Lomond, so presumably England need to name the replacement by then. If Moeen declines, it may be a bit of a blow to the confidence of Jacks/Ahmed/Livingstone/Dawson, knowing they weren't the preferred option to replace Leach.

Or conversely, a chance to show the selectors why you should have been picked in the first place and a chance to nail a spot in the side. Depends on the character I guess.....

Well, I'd hope so, but it can't be much for confidence initially to know that someone who hasn't picked up a red ball since 2021, and who consistently gets destroyed by Australia, has been asked to fill the vacancy before you.

KP_fan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Cricinfo saying that if Moeen doesn't come back, Will Jacks, Rehan Ahmed and Liam Livingstone are viewed as the next options for consideration, with Liam Dawson only an outside shot. Conversely, the Guardian claims that Dawson, Ahmed and Jacks are viewed as the alternatives, with no mention of Livingstone.

Apparently England are off for some team bonding trip over the weekend to Loch Lomond, so presumably England need to name the replacement by then. If Moeen declines, it may be a bit of a blow to the confidence of Jacks/Ahmed/Livingstone/Dawson, knowing they weren't the preferred option to replace Leach.

Ray Illingworth, Bobby Simpson, Imran Khan and Moeen Ali...the "legends" of the game requested by the selectors to come out of retirement    as their Motherland / Fatherland couldn't do without their services

If Moeen is a 'legend', who else qualifies as a 'legend'? Collingwood? Bresnan? Caddick?

guildfordbat wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Cricinfo saying that if Moeen doesn't come back, Will Jacks, Rehan Ahmed and Liam Livingstone are viewed as the next options for consideration, with Liam Dawson only an outside shot. Conversely, the Guardian claims that Dawson, Ahmed and Jacks are viewed as the alternatives, with no mention of Livingstone.

Apparently England are off for some team bonding trip over the weekend to Loch Lomond, so presumably England need to name the replacement by then. If Moeen declines, it may be a bit of a blow to the confidence of Jacks/Ahmed/Livingstone/Dawson, knowing they weren't the preferred option to replace Leach.

If only Fred Trueman was still around to pass a comment .... 

Could probably have a good episode of Indoor League from Loch Lomond...

At least this bonding trip is close by. England went to Germany for some 'bonding' before the 2010/11 Ashes, and did a tour of some WW1 battlefields in the run-up to the 2009 series.

Pal Joey wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Cricinfo saying that if Moeen doesn't come back, Will Jacks, Rehan Ahmed and Liam Livingstone are viewed as the next options for consideration, with Liam Dawson only an outside shot. Conversely, the Guardian claims that Dawson, Ahmed and Jacks are viewed as the alternatives, with no mention of Livingstone.

Apparently England are off for some team bonding trip over the weekend to Loch Lomond, so presumably England need to name the replacement by then. If Moeen declines, it may be a bit of a blow to the confidence of Jacks/Ahmed/Livingstone/Dawson, knowing they weren't the preferred option to replace Leach.

Fingers crossed someone's checked those old wooden trestles on the water ski jump.

No further injuries so far today I take it?

It's early yet. Root's probably fractured his shoulder while opening a bottle of goldtop, and Duckett has likely sprained both thumbs while texting a friend.

Duty281 wrote:Cricinfo saying that if Moeen doesn't come back, Will Jacks, Rehan Ahmed and Liam Livingstone are viewed as the next options for consideration, with Liam Dawson only an outside shot. Conversely, the Guardian claims that Dawson, Ahmed and Jacks are viewed as the alternatives, with no mention of Livingstone.

Apparently England are off for some team bonding trip over the weekend to Loch Lomond, so presumably England need to name the replacement by then. If Moeen declines, it may be a bit of a blow to the confidence of Jacks/Ahmed/Livingstone/Dawson, knowing they weren't the preferred option to replace Leach.

I saw a suggestion they were proposing to play some golf on this trip ...

If so I trust Bairstow will be restricted to duties as a Caddie

alfie wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Cricinfo saying that if Moeen doesn't come back, Will Jacks, Rehan Ahmed and Liam Livingstone are viewed as the next options for consideration, with Liam Dawson only an outside shot. Conversely, the Guardian claims that Dawson, Ahmed and Jacks are viewed as the alternatives, with no mention of Livingstone.

Apparently England are off for some team bonding trip over the weekend to Loch Lomond, so presumably England need to name the replacement by then. If Moeen declines, it may be a bit of a blow to the confidence of Jacks/Ahmed/Livingstone/Dawson, knowing they weren't the preferred option to replace Leach.

I saw a suggestion they were proposing to play some golf on this trip ...

If so I trust Bairstow will be restricted to duties as a Caddie

Indeed! And no football I hope.

I see Moeen Ali has set the boards on fire yet again!
England after a lot of effort, had somehow managed to turn Leach into a half-decent option for a slow bowler. He was slowly building up some performances and then gets injured. The batters who could bowl tried out in Pakistan are really not quite up to it. Ahmed could be a long term prospect, but would be better to ease him into test cricket in more helpful conditions... As such, the only test level option they have is to somehow convince Moeen... He might be a better fit in the current regime I feel.
But Moeen is only considering the call, he hasn't said yes. I wish the news wasn't out before he decided one way or the other. When he's asked he has to of course confirm that he has got a call...

Duty281 wrote:Duckett has likely sprained both thumbs while texting a friend.

Prepare yourself folks, it's time for my latest unrequested tangent.

There's a thought amongst a few people I've talked to that cover the CC that Duckett's nasty finger injury has made him a better player in the long run. It was a really bad break that required surgery and Duckett has spoken about having to relearn how to hold the bat afterwards. There's a train of though that the change in grip and subsequent alterations in technique to accommodate have allowed him to access the offside better as a consequence.

It's a funny old world, ey.

Imagine how good he might get after two thumb sprains!

Duty281 wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Cricinfo saying that if Moeen doesn't come back, Will Jacks, Rehan Ahmed and Liam Livingstone are viewed as the next options for consideration, with Liam Dawson only an outside shot. Conversely, the Guardian claims that Dawson, Ahmed and Jacks are viewed as the alternatives, with no mention of Livingstone.

Apparently England are off for some team bonding trip over the weekend to Loch Lomond, so presumably England need to name the replacement by then. If Moeen declines, it may be a bit of a blow to the confidence of Jacks/Ahmed/Livingstone/Dawson, knowing they weren't the preferred option to replace Leach.

If only Fred Trueman was still around to pass a comment .... 

Could probably have a good episode of Indoor League from Loch Lomond...

At least this bonding trip is close by. England went to Germany for some 'bonding' before the 2010/11 Ashes, and did a tour of some WW1 battlefields in the run-up to the 2009 series.

There’s some footage of the 10/11 ‘Bonding’ trip on the excellent The Edge documentary. To say it looked brutal is understating it. I suspect Loch Lomond will be more pedestrian…

JDizzle wrote:There’s some footage of the 10/11 ‘Bonding’ trip on the excellent The Edge documentary. To say it looked brutal is understating it. I suspect Loch Lomond will be more pedestrian…

The Edge is a cracking documentary. That bonding trip seemed to be really tough on Finn and Monty in particular though.

The end of the doc when the players are talking about what they miss is fantastic and emotional. Colly talking about getting dreams where he thinks he's in the slips with Jimmy bowling is oddly heart warming. Then Trott breaking down saying that he doesn't think he'll miss cricket but will miss the batting partnerships with certain teammates is an odd tearjerker.

I welled up during the bit when KP said he'd miss batting with himself

Cheap jokes aside, that documentary is an excellent watch

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2023/06/06/zimbabwe-england-invite-lords/

Zimbabwe might be coming for a one-off test either next year or 2025, at Lord's. To show you how long it has been since England last played Zimbabwe in a test, some lad called Jimmy Anderson played in it....no, wait, Rob Key and Alec Stewart also played in it.

Could be Jimmy's retirement test, as everything comes full circle?

Bangladesh might also get a one-off test in England at some point. They haven't toured England since 2010.

England's current home schedule is 3 tests v the West Indies and 2 tests v Sri Lanka in 2024; and 5 tests v India in 2025, so there's plenty of room in the calendar.

king_carlos wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Duckett has likely sprained both thumbs while texting a friend.

Prepare yourself folks, it's time for my latest unrequested tangent.

There's a thought amongst a few people I've talked to that cover the CC that Duckett's nasty finger injury has made him a better player in the long run. It was a really bad break that required surgery and Duckett has spoken about having to relearn how to hold the bat afterwards. There's a train of though that the change in grip and subsequent alterations in technique to accommodate have allowed him to access the offside better as a consequence.

It's a funny old world, ey.

Imagine how good he might get after two thumb sprains!

Hi Carlos - Interesting. Genuinely interesting about Duckett.

If I recall correctly, you went off on another unrequested tangent whilst I was away about Tim Murtagh discovering his wobble ball leading to a long and pretty successful career. I saw him debut for Surrey around 20 years ago and, although he had some accuracy, he was so lacking in pace and penetration that I thought he would join that long list of never quite made it bowlers who drifted out of the game in their mid twenties. So much for my foresight and what his discovery of the wobble ball helped him achieve!

Duty281 wrote:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2023/06/06/zimbabwe-england-invite-lords/

Zimbabwe might be coming for a one-off test either next year or 2025, at Lord's. To show you how long it has been since England last played Zimbabwe in a test, some lad called Jimmy Anderson played in it....no, wait, Rob Key and Alec Stewart also played in it.

Could be Jimmy's retirement test, as everything comes full circle?

Bangladesh might also get a one-off test in England at some point. They haven't toured England since 2010.

England's current home schedule is 3 tests v the West Indies and 2 tests v Sri Lanka in 2024; and 5 tests v India in 2025, so there's plenty of room in the calendar.

Don't forgot that legendary allrounder Anthony McGrath also played those Tests!

Indeed. Batting average of 40, bowling average of 14. One of the game's great all-rounders, up there with Kallis, Imran, Sobers and Moeen. Very sporting of him to stop at four tests so he didn't show everyone else up.

This is such a bizarre series to predict.

Warner could get runs, finally win that Ashes in England and have the swansong he wants against Pakistan. Or maybe he gets dumped after the WTC or T1.

England could have some fitness luck with the seamers from here and end up only picking from Anderson, Broad, Robinson, Wood and Woakes. Equally I wouldn't be amazed if we saw a return to multiple bowling allrounders by the series end as they try to plug the gap left by Stokes being unable to bowl. Seeing 7.Moeen 8.Surran 9.Woakes at some point in a 5 Test series really wouldn't astonish from where we are currently sitting. Nor would more injuries resulting in Tongue or Potts featuring amaze me.

Is Stokes fit enough to bat let alone bowl? Will Boland's skills transfer to the Dukes and English conditions? Can Hazelwood play many Tests? The same for Anderson and Robinson? Are Neser's excellent F-C skills transferrable to flatter pitches? Will we even get flatter pitches in reality? How big is Cameron Green? Will Travis Head take his outstanding home form into away Tests? Can Mo still hold a cricket ball when it's red? As England get more injuries does Cam Green actually get bigger? Can Bairstow rediscover his preinjury form with the bat? Can he then do that with the gloves? Will Duty need more therapy to deal with Crawley being persevered with or Mo getting recalled? Is the Ashes still a big deal for world cricket or is this just the last remnants of crickets two fading former superpowers desperately clinging to its glory years? Do I need to deal with my insomnia in a more mature manner than writing this sleep deprived rambling mind vomit? Will any of KP fans 78 daily prediction come true? Will Stuart Broad actually bowl an outswinger?

I genuinely have no idea what to expect.

guildfordbat wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Duckett has likely sprained both thumbs while texting a friend.

Prepare yourself folks, it's time for my latest unrequested tangent.

There's a thought amongst a few people I've talked to that cover the CC that Duckett's nasty finger injury has made him a better player in the long run. It was a really bad break that required surgery and Duckett has spoken about having to relearn how to hold the bat afterwards. There's a train of though that the change in grip and subsequent alterations in technique to accommodate have allowed him to access the offside better as a consequence.

It's a funny old world, ey.

Imagine how good he might get after two thumb sprains!

Hi Carlos - Interesting. Genuinely interesting about Duckett.

If I recall correctly, you went off on another unrequested tangent whilst I was away about Tim Murtagh discovering his wobble ball leading to a long and pretty successful career. I saw him debut for Surrey around 20 years ago and, although he had some accuracy, he was so lacking in pace and penetration that I thought he would join that long list of never quite made it bowlers who drifted out of the game in their mid twenties. So much for my foresight and what his discovery of the wobble ball helped him achieve!

From what I've read and heard he discovered it fairly early on and initially tried to train it out but then a coach at Middlesex said that if it's taking wickets don't bother! That was around the time Mohammad Asif was using the wobble seam in Tests so brilliantly, hence county bowlers started trying to replicate it. Glenn Chapple was an early one to do so, helped pass it onto Lancs and therefore England bowlers.

Murtagh was definitely more of a swing bowler early on with Middlesex from memory but learnt how to use the slope at Lord masterfully. Plus he is of course so accurate and by virtue of being a bit slower could bowl long spells which both help massively over a long county season.

I always forget that Tim played for Surrey for some reason. It's odd as I actually saw him play for Surrey as a kid back when my dad worked in London and had a flat just round the corner from the Oval. It's even more bizarre that I almost connect his brother Chris with being a Surrey player more than Tim! Probably just because the latter has become so synonymous with Middlesex.

I was chatting with my dad about following Surrey together in those years the other day. It's funny how cricket just makes former players stick in your head. Big names that go onto be internationals it makes sense but the likes of Stewart Walters, Michael Brown, Jon Batty, James Benning, etc etc just pop into my head from nowhere when reminiscing. County bowlers who don't quite make it are another category that just lodge in my brain for some reason. Tom Jewell, Jack Winslade, George Edwards, etc.

We also chatted for a prolonged period about how Nayan Doshi played in the wrong era, could've made very good money on the T20 circuit had he been 15 years younger.

king_carlos wrote:This is such a bizarre series to predict.

Warner could get runs, finally win that Ashes in England and have the swansong he wants against Pakistan. Or maybe he gets dumped after the WTC or T1.

England could have some fitness luck with the seamers from here and end up only picking from Anderson, Broad, Robinson, Wood and Woakes. Equally I wouldn't be amazed if we saw a return to multiple bowling allrounders by the series end as they try to plug the gap left by Stokes being unable to bowl. Seeing 7.Moeen 8.Surran 9.Woakes at some point in a 5 Test series really wouldn't astonish from where we are currently sitting. Nor would more injuries resulting in Tongue or Potts featuring amaze me.

Is Stokes fit enough to bat let alone bowl? Will Boland's skills transfer to the Dukes and English conditions? Can Hazelwood play many Tests? The same for Anderson and Robinson? Are Neser's excellent F-C skills transferrable to flatter pitches? Will we even get flatter pitches in reality? How big is Cameron Green? Will Travis Head take his outstanding home form into away Tests? Can Mo still hold a cricket ball when it's red? As England get more injuries does Cam Green actually get bigger? Can Bairstow rediscover his preinjury form with the bat? Can he then do that with the gloves? Will Duty need more therapy to deal with Crawley being persevered with or Mo getting recalled? Is the Ashes still a big deal for world cricket or is this just the last remnants of crickets two fading former superpowers desperately clinging to its glory years? Do I need to deal with my insomnia in a more mature manner than writing this sleep deprived rambling mind vomit? Will any of KP fans 78 daily prediction come true? Will Stuart Broad actually bowl an outswinger?

I genuinely have no idea what to expect.

You've turned into Ron Manager. https://youtu.be/C-3dwjgoBts?t=62

All of KP_fan's predictions will come true, because he'll write them after the day's play has already happened. My therapist is struggling more with Moeen's recall than I am. Moeen might be fine if the cricket ball is painted white, so expect Stokes to come out with a large brush.

I do think it's the most unpredictable series since 2005 because there's so many variables and uncertainties. Hopefully it'll be just as good.

king_carlos wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Duckett has likely sprained both thumbs while texting a friend.

Prepare yourself folks, it's time for my latest unrequested tangent.

There's a thought amongst a few people I've talked to that cover the CC that Duckett's nasty finger injury has made him a better player in the long run. It was a really bad break that required surgery and Duckett has spoken about having to relearn how to hold the bat afterwards. There's a train of though that the change in grip and subsequent alterations in technique to accommodate have allowed him to access the offside better as a consequence.

It's a funny old world, ey.

Imagine how good he might get after two thumb sprains!

I'm now wondering how much of Zak Crawley we need to break to make him a half-decent opener......

Have to chuckle at KC's list of "unknowns" for the Ashes. All jokes aside there really are a lot of questions about players on both sides that might massively influence the results. Suppose one might say this is always the case in advance ; but it does seem that this time around there are more than usual issues about (a)injuries and recovery (b) players with serious form doubts and/or limited familiarity with conditions ; and (c) conditions themselves given the earlier start and the compacted nature of the fixtures.

One that wasn't mentioned (though the player himself has addressed it) is how Australian captain Pat Cummins is going to cope with the role of leading fast bowler as well as skipper over six (!) closely spaced Tests. He says he intends to play all of them : surely going to test his body , no ? Will he have to "manage" his bowling load ? Might make the role of Lyon and Green even more important...

One unknown has become known, the legend himself has returned!

I am really interested in the final today. I do not think that India will be as under prepared as reported. I know they come off the IPL but the Indians can switch formats with amazing ease.

I really do hope that the Aussies do not win and get a confidence boost going into the Ashes.