Ireland 2023/24 - RWC and Onwards

First topic message reminder :

So another season is over, and we're getting ready for Andy Farrell's announcement this coming week for his initial RWC squad that will be used in upcoming warm-up games against Italy (5 Aug) , England (19 Aug) both in Aviva, and then a whittled down finalised RWC squad to play Samoa in France on 26 Aug.

The U20s RWC kicks off in South Africa in July.

After Munster's well-deserved win against Stormers, Farrell & Co may have paused for thought as to who comes into the wider squad beyond the nailed-on members. The 42 man RWC Training Squad announced is:

Forwards (22)

Ryan Baird (Leinster/Dublin University)
Finlay Bealham (Connacht/Buccaneers)
Tadhg Beirne (Munster/Lansdowne)
Jack Conan (Leinster/Old Belvedere)
Gavin Coombes (Munster/Young Munster)
Caelan Doris (Leinster/St Mary’s College)
Tadhg Furlong (Leinster/Clontarf)
Cian Healy (Leinster/Clontarf)
Iain Henderson (Ulster/Academy)
Rob Herring (Ulster/Ballynahinch)
Ronan Kelleher (Leinster/Lansdowne)
Dave Kilcoyne (Munster/UL Bohemians)
Joe McCarthy (Leinster/Dublin University)
Peter O’Mahony (Munster/Cork Constitution)
Tom O’Toole (Ulster/Ballynahinch)
Andrew Porter (Leinster/UCD)
Cian Prendergast (Connacht/Corinthians)
James Ryan (Leinster/UCD)
Dan Sheehan (Leinster/Lansdowne)
Tom Stewart (Ulster/Ballynahinch)*
Kieran Treadwell (Ulster/Ballymena)
Josh van der Flier (Leinster/UCD)

Backs (20)

Bundee Aki (Connacht/Galwegians)
Caolin Blade (Connacht/Galwegians)
Ross Byrne (Leinster/UCD)
Craig Casey (Munster/Shannon)
Jack Crowley (Munster/Cork Constitution)
Keith Earls (Munster/Young Munster)
Ciaran Frawley (Leinster/UCD)*
Jamison Gibson-Park (Leinster)
Mack Hansen (Connacht/Corinthians)
Robbie Henshaw (Leinster/Buccaneers)
Hugo Keenan (Leinster/UCD)
James Lowe (Leinster)
Stuart McCloskey (Ulster/Bangor)
Conor Murray (Munster/Garryowen)
Calvin Nash (Munster/Young Munster)*
Jimmy O’Brien (Leinster/Naas)
Jamie Osborne (Leinster/Naas)*
Garry Ringrose (Leinster/UCD)
Jonathan Sexton (Leinster/St Mary’s College)
Jacob Stockdale (Ulster/Lurgan)

Apparently neither Schmidt nor Erasmus are on the final short list to take over from Nucifora.

From the independent.

“It seems more likely the post will go to someone from the Irish system,” the report stated. “That person will then work closely with Nucifora, who has been in the job since 2014, on an orderly changeover of power after the Olympics next year. While the recruitment search was worldwide there was no emphasis on the successful candidate being a marquee name.”

Collapse2005 wrote:Apparently neither Schmidt nor Erasmus are on the final short list to take over from Nucifora.

From the independent.

“It seems more likely the post will go to someone from the Irish system,” the report stated. “That person will then work closely with Nucifora, who has been in the job since 2014, on an orderly changeover of power after the Olympics next year. While the recruitment search was worldwide there was no emphasis on the successful candidate being a marquee name.”

Would Leo Cullen be an option for that role?
Problem with someone from within the Irish system is they come out of a province and the shwitherry will come up any time a marquee name or NIQ player isn't allowed for the greater good.
I'd think Leo would be good for that kind of a role, but...... is that option really just dead in the water as soon as he sits down across the table of any province (either..... you have to give me more funds or else you're preferential for leinster.... or can't make contract/arrangement with Leinster as it would be seen as preferential). Outside face just kills that excuse....

South Africa: Damian Willemse; Kurt-Lee Arendse, Jesse Kriel, Damian de Allende, Cheslin Kolbe; Manie Libbok, Faf de Klerk; Steven Kitshoff, Bongi Mbonambi, Frans Malherbe; Eben Etzebeth, Franco Mostert; Siya Kolisi (capt), Pieter-Steph du Toit, Jasper Wiese.

Replacements: Deon Fourie, Ox Nche, Trevor Nyakane, Jean Kleyn, RG Snyman, Marco van Staden, Kwagga Smith, Cobus Reinach.

7-1 split lol

I think it is fair to say you could call that the bomb squad!

Heard that being called the nuke squad.

Go Ireland!

Jesus. That's missing Marx, Lood and Vermeulen as well.

The Boks, unsurprisingly, going down the sort of route that La Rochelle used against Leinster in the Champions Cup final.

1.Wardi 2.Bougarit 3.Antonio 4.Skelton 5.Sazy 6.Boudehent 7.Botia 8.Aldritt
16.Lespiaucq 17.Scalvi 18.Colombe 19.Lavault 20.Bourdeau 21.Dillane

That had to be one of the most physical club packs we've seen. They were clearly trying to nullify Leinster's excellence in terms of structure and cohesion as a team by simply winning collisions at all cost.

It's unavoidable that the bomb squad is less intimidating without Marx though. Still brilliant depth of course. I've been really impressed with Snyman especially but also Ox, Nyakane and van Staden. Whilst Kwagga is a cracking bench player. Marx is the best hooker in the game for my money though.

Against Scotland I found the difference in height between their starting and bench front rows a really interesting tactical shift. Kitshoff, Marx and Malherbe are all over 6 foot. Then Ox, Mbonambi and Nyakane are all comfortably under 6 foot. It changed the height they could scrummage at completely and put a ton of pressure on the tiring Scottish pack. Had Marx not been injured I suspect they'd have kept those two front rows together as separate units for that reason.

South Africa must have serious faith in their backs ability to not get injured and have the fitness to not leave big gaps for Ireland later in the game.

It's going to be such an interesting clash, tactics, styles of play. I'm really looking forward to it and also terrified to watch it at the same time

It's not risk free is it?

One early injury to a back and it may not look quite so smart.

Kwagga Smith, i am sure could do a decent turn in the backline but who would be next after him?

Siya, you would have thought, assuming he has not already been subbed off.

It will be fascinating how this pans out and if it does work, it could impact on how lots of teams choose to play in the future.

The backline is stuffed with versatile players to be fair. Willemse is a 10 by trade. Kriel can play 12 and 13 but has covered wing and fullback too. Kolbe has played plenty of 15. Arendse plays fullback as much as wing. Faf has been considered as a genuine FH option for the Boks for a while now similar to Dupont shifting there for France.

Then Kwagga was of course a 7s player for a long time and can certainly cover centre as Fijians such as Botia and Yato do.

Given the Boks regularly drop SHs back during kick tennis it isn't even that ridiculous to use Reinach as a wing. He's definitely quick enough.

I find it fascinating. They are simplifying it to just getting the best players on the park. Had the likes of Marx, Lood, Pollard and Am been available I'm not sure they would have gone with a 7-1 split. As a means of keeping that physicality in the wake of a growing injury list I find it such an interesting move though.

There's definitely risk but it's high reward too. It obviously allows them to tell their starting forwards to play like it's a 50 minute match, then throw a fresh set on as soon as they tire.

Given Ireland's systems are so well drilled and their error count usually so low I'd expect them to not budge in their tactics either. Unstoppable force and immovable object comes to mind. It should be a terrific match.

Yes it certainly is a high risk, high reward strategy. It's one of those that really we will only be able to say if it was a stroke of brillaince or a mistake in hindsight.

We may well sit here Saturday evening and say what a great call it was it allowed South Africa to dominate the game and no doubt contributed to a terrific victory. Alternatively we may sit here and say what a bad call it was and that back rower ending up in the backs who doesn't play there and was out of position a lot allowed Ireland to run completely around them and probably cost them the game.

Theres also the option of course that whatever way it pans out the 7 to 1 split ends up having little to no effect on the game at all.

It's a fascinating game, well if your neutral it will be anyways lol

king_carlos wrote:The backline is stuffed with versatile players to be fair. Willemse is a 10 by trade. Kriel can play 12 and 13 but has covered wing and fullback too. Kolbe has played plenty of 15. Arendse plays fullback as much as wing. Faf has been considered as a genuine FH option for the Boks for a while now similar to Dupont shifting there for France.

Then Kwagga was of course a 7s player for a long time and can certainly cover centre as Fijians such as Botia and Yato do.

Given the Boks regularly drop SHs back during kick tennis it isn't even that ridiculous to use Reinach as a wing. He's definitely quick enough.

I find it fascinating. They are simplifying it to just getting the best players on the park. Had the likes of Marx, Lood, Pollard and Am been available I'm not sure they would have gone with a 7-1 split. As a means of keeping that physicality in the wake of a growing injury list I find it such an interesting move though.

There's definitely risk but it's high reward too. It obviously allows them to tell their starting forwards to play like it's a 50 minute match, then throw a fresh set on as soon as they tire.

Given Ireland's systems are so well drilled and their error count usually so low I'd expect them to not budge in their tactics either. Unstoppable force and immovable object comes to mind. It should be a terrific match.

I suppose they're also thinking to themselves 'when was the last time that two backline players got injured in one match'?

Kwagga Smith could possibly drop into the backs of there were an injury. He's got a sevens background so could do a job at centre in an emergency.

Looks to me that the 7-1 split that crushed NZ was a test run for the RWC. Scotland's reserve pack didn't match the boks bench, not sure the Irish bench will either. The only team that might match up currently is France and SA will surely be playing a ten man game for the first 50/60 minutes.
There is also probably going to be a card in the game and perhaps that will be the difference.

Defending at 13 is no easy thing. If Kriel gets Injured early SA back line will struggle in defence.

carpet baboon wrote:Defending at 13 is no easy thing.  If Kriel gets Injured early SA back line will struggle in defence.

Or picks up a card

Yeah, I have a feeling there will be a card or two in this game with a couple of world class sh*thouses in POM and PSdT I can see a little bit of niggle

I did think of putting a bet on at least 1 yellow card to each team & 1 red in the match.

carpet baboon wrote:Defending at 13 is no easy thing.  If Kriel gets Injured early SA back line will struggle in defence.

That immediately came to my mind. I do wonder if they plan to simply change their defensive structure if that happens. The Boks blitz extremely hard which is what makes the 13 spot so difficult. They end up being that 'hinge' between the blitz tighter in and the necessity to drift when teams to get outside it.

When defensive structures that put a lot of pressure on their 13 like that don't have their 13 in that position due to being in a ruck they tend to just tweak their line speed. When England had a really hard blitz under Paul Gustard with Jonathan Joseph taking that role they'd generally just be slightly less aggressive on their line speed if JJ was out of position. That took pressure off the outside centre. When they had more of a drift under John Mitchell they'd change the structure to suit the personnel. With Slade at 13 it was a bit of hybrid defence where they blitzed hard with the forwards near the ruck but drifted basically when defending wider than the 10 channel. Then when Manu was a 13 the blitz was used a bit wider out as well as it suited Manu better to just be told to hit things hard.

When a 13 isn't available for that job the most common player that teams use to step in is their 12 or a flanker. So Kwagga and Kolisi in particular won't be alien to the role.

Given the Boks seem to be simplifying things to get the best players on the pitch I'm really curious to see if they'd just do the same in defence. If Kriel were injured and Kwagga came on then might they just play Kolisi and Kwagga wide on either touchline in defence? That way it wouldn't be a big rejig to get either of them into the 'outside centre' channel on the openside depending on which way Ireland shift the ball. It would require those players contesting the breakdown less. I don't think it's unrealistic that they might just do that though. Have Kwagga and Kolisi hover around the 15m line on either side of the pitch. Then tell the other 7 forwards to just hit things very hard between each 15m.

The Boks often contest the breakdown through incredibly physical counter rucking rather than jackaling as well. So they could still tell those 7 gigantic forwards to smash breakdowns to force Ireland to commit numbers.

As others have said it might all go to s**t for them. Or it might be genius. Or they might be trolling and put Pollard onto the bench at the last minute. Whatever happens it's fun.

Recwatcher16 wrote:Looks to me that the 7-1 split that crushed NZ was a test run for the RWC. Scotland's reserve pack didn't match the boks bench, not sure the Irish bench will either. The only team that might match up currently is France and SA will surely be playing a ten man game for the first 50/60 minutes.
There is also probably going to be a card in the game and perhaps that will be the difference.

Thought Scotland did very well v the Boks reserves, Dont think SA scored after the 49th minute. The score was 0-0 after SAs reserves came on.

So much is made of the so called bomb squad, most of it hype in my view. I dont think the 7-1 split is the reason NZ were thrashed by SA, they were taking a hiding from minute 1 and then got red carded. The red card and the fact they were fresh off the boat and under prepared are bigger reasons.

If anything I see the 7-1 as a bit of a hail mary from Erasmus and co to combat Irelands strengths. Bring it on. I doubt Farrell will pay much notice and we will see a 5-3 Ireland bench.

Jack Conan will likely not be available for this game and according to Thornley and Easterby it will be a 5/3 bench which is the right call IMO. The Boks released their side yesterday with the 7/1 split as an intimidation tactic in my view. I dont think this Irish side will flinch and nor should they as they have lead the way in world rugby for the last 18 months.

I might be very wrong as the Boks have been playing very well but I dont think they will win the world cup this year, they have the oldest squad in the RWC, they have already built up a sizable injury list and this will be their toughest ever fixture list in the RWC. Their physical game plan will really be tested by the run of really tough sides like never before.

Im predicting an Ireland win on Saturday albeit I accept anything could really happen in a game between two fairly evenly matched but very different sides.

I really can't call Saturday's game. The Boks injuries and Sheehan returning for Ireland maybe edge Ireland a smidge ahead. I think it will be extremely tight though.

It's so frustrating we wont see Marx vs Sheehan. Brilliant players.

The Boks have been naming their sides early for a while now I think. The players generally hear the team news on the Tuesday. Then it doesn't get announced officially until Thursday. But the 23 so often leaks out by then anyway. It seems that Rassie and Nienaber are getting around that by just announcing it themselves. I quite like it.

I didn't really do predictions before the tournament started, missed the tipping comp as I was busy in the build up. Just about my only prediction was that I felt the two sides who progress from Pool B might lose in the QFs though. I just have a feeling that this group will knock ten shades out of each other and that will have an impact come the QFs. Whereas France and NZ had their big game first up then can basically prep for a KO game from there.

Its a fair call, you could be right. Injuries and suspensions will be key.

Collapse2005 wrote:

I might be very wrong as the Boks have been playing very well but I dont think they will win the world cup this year, they have the oldest squad in the RWC, they have already built up a sizable injury list and this will be their toughest ever fixture list in the RWC. Their physical game plan will really be tested by the run of really tough sides like never before.

Source ??
In the upcoming game the Bok squad(picked for Ireland game) is on average younger than the Irish(Based it on the squad vs Tonga)

So are you saying the Irish squad is old or what ?

Irish squad is the 3rd oldest after Samoa but only has one injury, Cian Healy. I also think the Ireland squad is fitter and game plan less attritional. Boks missing Am, De Jager, Marx, Koch. At age 38 Sexton brings the average age up a bit, Vermuelen (37) and Le Roux (34)missing for the Boks brings their average down too.

https://twitter.com/T2Rugby/status/1698719841929015512?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1698719841929015512%7Ctwgr%5Ee50c5b7048dcdecba144325957e647c1b308f767%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sarugbymag.co.za%2Fveteran-boks-get-last-world-cup-shot%2F

Average age for Boks is 30 which is old and I think it might mean more injuries as the tournament progresses.

I also think SAs defensive set up does make them a risk for a red card, hopefully not on Saturday but I can see them copping one at some stage.

There's a decent chance that Koch misses out to Nyakane in their full strength 23 even if fit these days to be fair. Which is absurd.

Marx, Lood and Am are massive losses. All three are world class. Marx is the biggest injury there though. He's one of the best players in the world in any position.

Looking at each squad, it does feel like Ireland have more positions where they are one injury from trouble. Porter, Sheehan and Furlong all feel a big step above their replacements. Likewise with that very settled back three. Earl is reliable but doesn't offer what Hansen and Lowe do. Whilst Keenan's backup is a utility back with 3 starts at 15.

Doris and JvdF are fantastic but the lock depth allowing Bierne to shift to blindside, then shuffling the back row around is very good cover for an injury. Bierne has quietly been one of the players of the tournament so far.

Then, of course, Sexton now seems he's held together by his hatred of refs and the emotional support of 4 physios cuddling him after each tackle.

An injury to Mbonambi would be brutal for the Boks with Marx out. Even with their second row depth losing Etzebeth would also be tough as he's been the best lock in the world for a couple of years now IMO. Outside of that they have really good depth though. Especially with Pollard back in the squad behind Libbok.

If being really pedantic then PSdT going down would likely require Mostert switching to blindside, Snyman starting. With Lood already injured that then puts a big hole in their bench impact.

There's a ton of depth in that Boks squad IMO.

Like all sides Ireland do have gaps in depth but hooker isnt one of them, Kelleher, Sheehan or Herring would all slot in seemlessly. Better depth than SA in that position for sure which is a possible weakness for them.. Also lets not forger the Boks dont have a great kicker at 10 and Libbok isnt exactly experienced, they have some gaps in depth themselves.

When SAs team sheet was announced the one guy I was hoping wasnt going to be on it was Willemse at full back. He is a better player and defender than Le Roux who I thought might have been a bit of a weakness for SA. Willemse is more of a threat in fielding the chip kicks, we might use to keep the Bok defense honest. Think that was a smart selection from Nienabar.

Pollard's a fantastic kicker and very experienced though now he's back in the squad.

With Marx injured you can argue that they are light below Mbonambi. With Marx and Mbonambi fit I'd say their hookers are as strong as any in the world though. Equal to Marchand and Mauvaka. I wouldn't say any other nations come close to those teams for their first and second choice hookers. Mbonambi is certainly a better player than Kelleher or Herring IMO. Joseph Dweba is another physical freak they could look at it if they did get an injury too. It feels a touch harsh to say they lack depth there having lost the best hooker in the world and being able to start Mbonambi instead.

I'd agree that Willemse has looked very good. le Roux has been fantastic for a long time but the defensive aspects of his game have slid a bit with age. I'd say Willemse is as good in attack but much better in defence these days. Having electric wingers that can cover fullback certainly helps when deciding on the makeup of a back three though.

In conversation with Jim Hamilton, ROG said he would try to counter the South African rush by going through it, rather than around it.

He argues for aiming at weak shoulders or flailing arms. If the defender tries to adjust, then he runs the risk of a high shot wwich could draw a card. It depends on the attacking side having an accurate first couple of passes, giving the new ball carrier an opportunity to aim where he wants, and the option for a pass or tip-on to a player who ought to have a bit more space.

king_carlos wrote:Pollard's a fantastic kicker and very experienced though now he's back in the squad.

With Marx injured you can argue that they are light below Mbonambi. With Marx and Mbonambi fit I'd say their hookers are as strong as any in the world though. Equal to Marchand and Mauvaka. I wouldn't say any other nations come close to those teams for their first and second choice hookers. Mbonambi is certainly a better player than Kelleher or Herring IMO. Joseph Dweba is another physical freak they could look at it if they did get an injury too. It feels a touch harsh to say they lack depth there having lost the best hooker in the world and being able to start Mbonambi instead.

I'd agree that Willemse has looked very good. le Roux has been fantastic for a long time but the defensive aspects of his game have slid a bit with age. I'd say Willemse is as good in attack but much better in defence these days. Having electric wingers that can cover fullback certainly helps when deciding on the makeup of a back three though.

Ha there is no chance I agree with you on that. Marx is a great player but there are many people myself included that would rate Sheehan as the best hooker in the world now. Marx is injured though and the Boks have Mbonambi who is very good and a 36 year old flanker with 7 caps only one at hooker covering hooker. I’d rate Kelleher and Sheehan ahead of Mombonambi and Herring not far off. As for Fourie I doubt the Boks will want him to get too much game time v Ireland. 20 minutes max to target the breakdown at the end of the game.

Rugby Fan wrote:In conversation with Jim Hamilton, ROG said he would try to counter the South African rush by going through it, rather than around it.

He argues for aiming at weak shoulders or flailing arms. If the defender tries to adjust, then he runs the risk of a high shot wwich could draw a card. It depends on the attacking side having an accurate first couple of passes, giving the new ball carrier an opportunity to aim where he wants, and the option for a pass or tip-on to a player who ought to have a bit more space.

Rog loves a podcast and a bit of a chin wag. Loves the media. I do agree with him though I think the Boks defensive set up makes then a red card risk, You saw Kriel get lucky against Scotland.

Rugby Fan wrote:In conversation with Jim Hamilton, ROG said he would try to counter the South African rush by going through it, rather than around it.

He argues for aiming at weak shoulders or flailing arms. If the defender tries to adjust, then he runs the risk of a high shot wwich could draw a card. It depends on the attacking side having an accurate first couple of passes, giving the new ball carrier an opportunity to aim where he wants, and the option for a pass or tip-on to a player who ought to have a bit more space.

Enjoyed thatinterview, O'Gara strikes met as a very intelctual guy, thewayhe talks about how he manages players. Also enjoyed his analysis of the game.

It seems the Boks need to avoid Cards through high tackles, and not haave any injuries and they have a strong chance to win.

king_carlos wrote:
Then, of course, Sexton now seems he's held together by his hatred of refs and the emotional support of 4 physios cuddling him after each tackle.

  that line deserves more recognition.

https://www.sarugbymag.co.za/ireland-back-heavy-hitters-boks/

15 Hugo Keenan; 14 Mack Hansen, 13 Garry Ringrose, 12 Bundee Aki, 11 James Lowe; 10 Johnny Sexton (c), 9 Jamison Gibson-Park; 8 Caelan Doris, 7 Josh van der Flier, 6 Peter O’Mahony; 5 James Ryan, 4 Tadhg Beirne; 3 Tadhg Furlong, 2 Ronan Kelleher, 1 Andrew Porter.
Subs: 16 Dan Sheehan, 17 David Kilcoyne, 18 Finlay Bealham, 19 Iain Henderson, 20 Ryan Baird, 21 Conor Murray, 22 Jack Crowley, 23 Robbie Henshaw.

Pretty much what was expected. Not bothered by SA 7/1 play our game and let's see what happens.
Glad Crowley is on the bench.
And Henderson and Baird can have some impact

Good luck to the Irish supporters, may the game live up to the hype, and we have no injuries orcards.

My goodness what are you doing, you take the points there all day long Ireland especially when you lost the first lineout and got it back by a stroke of luck. That's a really poor decision

Ireland need to sort out gheir lineout!

Should’ve been the scrum pen promised for SA there. Loose dropped.

Is Rory Best throwing the lineouts? Bit shakey.

Going to have to stop kicking to the corner lads, lineout isn't working, haven't won one yet

RiscaGame wrote:Should’ve been the scrum pen promised for SA there. Loose dropped.

Yep. Porter under a lot of pressure from Malherbe. He's the best scrummaging TH in the world by a margin.

RiscaGame wrote:Is Rory Best throwing the lineouts? Bit shakey.

You leave our Rory out of this, man's a saint and a tremendous line out thrower

We could see a very early sub of Sheehan for Kelleher here? Ireland build so much of their game from that usually exceptional lineout.

The Boks counter rucking is absurdly physical. They just smash every breakdown relentlessly.

What's gone wrong with Ireland's lineout at this World Cup? They had problems in their last two games, but the ease of victory glossed over the issue.

And another chance shelled from Ireland.

Ireland aren't going to win if they don't sort out their set piece

Try saver from Kriel there. Keenan looked away after beating Willemse.

Duty281 wrote:What's gone wrong with Ireland's lineout at this World Cup? They had problems in their last two games, but the ease of victory glossed over the issue.

And another chance shelled from Ireland.

Sheehan being injured definitely a big part. Kelleher is a good play but Sheehan's world class.

Crikey. This game is already brutal. Some shots flying about and the contact area looks very keenly contested.

God this Boks team are incredible in contact. Every collision, every breakdown. It's nonstop.