England 2023 - Post 6N and beyond - Prep for WC

by Sgt_Pooly Fri 30 Jun 2023, 12:38 pm

First topic message reminder :

Continued.....

by formerly known as Sam Wed 19 Jul 2023, 2:59 pm

Geordie wrote:SA fluked it last time when Sinckler knocked himself out.

He might have helped England around the park a bit but wouldn't have done much to help the scrum bar there being a fresh option on around 60 mins.

SA controlled that game from start to finish. Starting Marler and Kruis and then using Mako and Lawes as impact might have helped.

by king_carlos Wed 19 Jul 2023, 3:08 pm

It was England's unforced error count that ruined them not the scrum. I've posted the below about a billion times but still:

SA had 11 scrum feeds to England's 3 feeds
Both sides had 10% retention on their own ball
SA won 4 pens (basically one for every 3 put ins)
England won 1 pen (1 in 3 put ins)

International teams winning penalties on the opposition put in is very rare now. The final followed that trend exactly. England just handed the Boks 11 put ins.

I've never really seen how Sinckler not getting a head knock so early reverses that gigantic error count in open play. It's worth noting that Lood and Mbonambi went off after 20 minutes as well but it's seemingly forgotten as the Boks won.

Two sides of similar quality going in with one playing incomparably better on the day. It happens. The England vs NZ final was a similarly good matchup going in but England had the far better performance on the day for instance.

by Geordie Wed 19 Jul 2023, 3:22 pm

Guys i was being a bit tongue in cheek is everyone losing their sense of humour....jeez!

by **Rugby Fan** Wed 19 Jul 2023, 3:27 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:...The 07 England team was Pretty rank and could have won it so you'd accept its feasible...

I suppose my point is, whatever flukey scenario we might imagine occurring beforehand - and you outlined an example earlier - a champion team is almost always regarded as a deserving team. The very act of winning changes the narrative. Looking back at a tournament, and imagining how a different winner would have seemed flukey, doesn't really work, We already know who did win.

If you can somehow forget South Africa won in 2007, then it's not hard to imagine how a victorious England would have been seen as a great comeback from adversity, rather than a fluke. To win in 2007, an England team on the ropes had to beat the odds three times. As it is, we could only manage it twice.

by Poorfour Wed 19 Jul 2023, 4:28 pm

The loss of Sinckler was significanrt for two reasons. Firstly, it meant Cole had to play 78 minutes (and SA ran up the winning margin at the end, when the England pack was visibly tiring), and secondly, Engand had run a number of plays here and there over the previous year where Sinckler had operated at first receiver - which poses interesting problems for a defence, because if they don't double up on him there's a high chance of a line break, and if they do - or they hesitate in case of a run - he has the skills to move it wide rapidly, with another playmaker likely to be in the line.

It had been very effective but it was clear that Eddie was trying it and then keeping it in reserve for the final. England never got a chance to try it. They may not have won against the Boks, but it's likely that it would have made for a very different final.

As for 07, I disagree that the England team were rank - but I also disagree that they would have won. The talent was definitely there. The XXIII had 8 members of the 2003 XXIII in it, plus the likes of Sheridan, Shaw and Cueto.

But it always felt that the Boks had the edge in too many areas, and England would need a bit of luck to prevail. They didn't get it - Cueto's foot bounced down on the touchline (his knee was OK - it was right in front of me), and in the second half the injuries mounted up - losing Robinson and Catt, and then Moody and Worsley (leaving Peter Richards at 7) were the final nails in the coffin.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 19 Jul 2023, 4:28 pm

That's a bit like the argument about whether luck exists. A fluke can occur at this moment but the second it happens its no longer a fluke.

by **Rugby Fan** Wed 19 Jul 2023, 5:04 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:That's a bit like the argument about whether luck exists. A fluke can occur at this moment but the second it happens its no longer a fluke.

Not really. The reason I specified team sports when I asked you earlier, is that it's much easier to imagine flukey wins in individual events. This is still a fluke after the event:

There are plenty of unexpected championship wins in team sports (e.g for football: Greece European Champions in 2004, Leicester Premiership Champions in 2015/6). However, we generally don't see them as flukes, because they require sustained performance, by several individuals, over a number of matches.

by carpet baboon Wed 19 Jul 2023, 5:30 pm

It always upsets me to see England fans argue.

Just try and remember the rest of the rugby playing world can't stand to see you be successful, and almost hate it as much when your a bit poopie as beating you isn't as much fun.

Now if you could all get back to talking about the 03 world cup and Phil Vickery's impending retirement (god forbid), then the rest of us can get on with calling you arrogant

Thanks chaps

by Yoda Wed 19 Jul 2023, 9:53 pm

Wales' GrandSlam a couple of years back could be argued as a little streaky. I think they played against 14 men in four of their five matches as one player was sent off?

England 2007 were a pretty lucky team as we basically won through arm wrestling teams instead of actually playing rugby. Didn't win though but had cueto scored it could have been a different story.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 20 Jul 2023, 8:06 am

carpet baboon wrote:It always upsets me to see England fans argue.

Just try and remember the rest of the rugby playing world can't stand to see you be successful, and almost hate it as much when your a bit poopie as beating you isn't as much fun.

Now if you could all get back to talking about the 03 world cup and Phil Vickery's impending retirement (god forbid), then the rest of us can get on with calling you arrogant

Thanks chaps

Can't see Ireland and England playing tbf, so you'll get your wish!

by No 7&1/2 Thu 20 Jul 2023, 8:14 am

Yoda wrote:Wales' GrandSlam a couple of years back could be argued as a little streaky. I think they played against 14 men in four of their five matches as one player was sent off?

England 2007 were a pretty lucky team as we basically won through arm wrestling teams instead of actually playing rugby. Didn't win though but had cueto scored it could have been a different story.

It's that kind of thing I was thinking tbf. The 6Ns is a bit of an oddity in terms of comps given the to and fro of the fixtures. Sometimes you get periods of a few years where it falls nicely i.e. the best teams are at home for you and then obvs the following year can be tricky. The way things fall for England at the moment means to me that a GS is extremely challenging in either odds or even years given we have to go away to France or Ireland. From my point above whether you disagree with the use of the word fluke, a win doesn't make a team or a coach amazing. Pivac even with that win was doubted and it didn't improve from that point.

Re the teams and the fluke point as well, if England had a world cup lined up to play in Irelands and NZs group, then potentially SA and then France...and we won...well even I'd be thinking that's some turnaround. I'd be thinking we'd do it by winning 9:6 in each game but there you go! As it is we should finish top of the group, you would think we'd still win about 7 or 8 out of 10 games against Argentina, Wales, well we should beat them the state they are in. And then I think comes France, for me the best team in the world...but we've seen teams bottle these games. And then a WC final. Even with that run of games I think this England team need a huge slice of luck.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 20 Jul 2023, 8:30 am

Smith has signed a new contract with Harlequins so that takes the RFU playing abroad question away from him thankfully. Can you imagine if Arundell runs amok in the WC though and the RFU not dropping the rule in the upcoming renegotiation?

by mountain man Thu 20 Jul 2023, 8:42 am

I can't believe Arundell be excluded, especially if he has a blinder at RWC. Given turmoil for clubs etc I reckon there will be rule changes to allow players in foreign clubs to be eligible for England. Surely even the antiquated RFU aren't that daft.

by Poorfour Thu 20 Jul 2023, 9:50 am

mountain man wrote:I can't believe Arundell be excluded, especially if he has a blinder at RWC. Given turmoil for clubs etc I reckon there will be rule changes to allow players in foreign clubs to be eligible for England. Surely even the antiquated RFU aren't that daft.

The question is how general the rule change is. I can see an allowance being needed for former Wasps, Worcester and LI players who need to find a contract. But how general would the rule be? Would it also be available to players from other clubs? Would it cover just a single contract or in perpetuity? How would the EQP and player access deal with the PRL have to change?

by Geordie Thu 20 Jul 2023, 11:27 am

Surely its better to have players abroad. Developing as players and as inviduals.

Then you have others developing in the prem....Win Win...

by formerly known as Sam Thu 20 Jul 2023, 3:01 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Smith has signed a new contract with Harlequins so that takes the RFU playing abroad question away from him thankfully. Can you imagine if Arundell runs amok in the WC though and the RFU not dropping the rule in the upcoming renegotiation?

They don't need to drop the rule. They just need to offer the LI players the same one year exemption that they offered the Wasps and Wuss guys. Arundell has one year with the option of a second, if he's a mainstay of the national side I'm sure he'll be heading back to the Prem.

by Geordie Thu 20 Jul 2023, 4:02 pm

Sam

Do you prefer players at home...or players away learning a new culture, playing with different nationalities..."hopefully" improving their skills...and whilst they are away...you have home based players coming through aswell...

Surely it increases the scope...

by No 7&1/2 Thu 20 Jul 2023, 4:28 pm

It's the knock on affect though too Sam, of those getting places at say Bath, may impact others re the cap. I would be surprised at this point were there not some changes to the set PRL RFU agreement.

by formerly known as Sam Thu 20 Jul 2023, 4:44 pm

Geordie wrote:Sam

Do you prefer players at home...or players away learning a new culture, playing with different nationalities..."hopefully" improving their skills...and whilst they are away...you have home based players coming through aswell...

Surely it increases the scope...

I've got no problem with players moving abroad to grow and improve but whilst the Prem operates on a precarious financial position there is a real risk of the top English talent being picked off by the high spending French teams leaving a lesser domestic product. Makes it harder to compete in Europe (and it's hard enough already) and then to attract sponsors and supporters.

There's also the release issue. The national side won't get players based in France the week before tests start. It's why Jack Willis missed out on the first 6N game for instance. You've also got the issue that any rest weekends that are protected as part of the EPS agreement aren't the same for foreign based players.

So by all means go abroad grow and improve but you aren't getting international recognition until you come back. The exemption for those that have been made redundant aside as those players can't help that.

by formerly known as Sam Thu 20 Jul 2023, 4:49 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's the knock on affect though too Sam, of those getting places at say Bath, may impact others re the cap. I would be surprised at this point were there not some changes to the set PRL RFU agreement.

McConnochie is past his best and barely plays having signed a whopping four year deal way back. He's now opted for Scotland so he'd be an obvious casualty as Arundell would provide more value for club and country.

by lostinwales Thu 20 Jul 2023, 4:51 pm

All things being equal and the gods of injury willing Arundell should be a superstar. We really need to find a way to keep him playing for England.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 20 Jul 2023, 6:36 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:It's the knock on affect though too Sam, of those getting places at say Bath, may impact others re the cap. I would be surprised at this point were there not some changes to the set PRL RFU agreement.

McConnochie is past his best and barely plays having signed a whopping four year deal way back. He's now opted for Scotland so he'd be an obvious casualty as Arundell would provide more value for club and country.

Wasn't thinking of a particular player...but he's still a mile better than Malins.

by formerly known as Sam Thu 20 Jul 2023, 8:20 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:It's the knock on affect though too Sam, of those getting places at say Bath, may impact others re the cap. I would be surprised at this point were there not some changes to the set PRL RFU agreement.

McConnochie is past his best and barely plays having signed a whopping four year deal way back. He's now opted for Scotland so he'd be an obvious casualty as Arundell would provide more value for club and country.

Wasn't thinking of a particular player...but he's still a mile better than Malins.

I'm not sure what Malins has to do with Bath or a sick note back three player who's declared for Scotland.

by doctor_grey Thu 20 Jul 2023, 10:43 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:It's the knock on affect though too Sam, of those getting places at say Bath, may impact others re the cap. I would be surprised at this point were there not some changes to the set PRL RFU agreement.

McConnochie is past his best and barely plays having signed a whopping four year deal way back. He's now opted for Scotland so he'd be an obvious casualty as Arundell would provide more value for club and country.

Wasn't thinking of a particular player...but he's still a mile better than Malins.

I'm not sure what Malins has to do with Bath or a sick note back three player who's declared for Scotland.

I'm not sure what Malins has to do with the England squad.

by **Rugby Fan** Fri 21 Jul 2023, 12:58 am

Telegraph reports Watson has signed an RFU training contract, while he is out of contrct with Leicester. The Premiership has always resisted having players under contract with England in any way, although the reports suggest Te'o was also under consideration for thiis format four years ago.

Alex Corbisiero says he once asked Lancaster if there was any chance of being contracted to the RFU, as he didn't think his knees could cope with a full commitment to club rugby and internationals. Lancaster thought it was doable but the RFU told him no. Maybe that kind of hybrid deal is on the table now.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/07/20/rfu-anthony-watson-rejoin-leicester-training-contract/

Anthony Watson has become the first male England player to sign a training contract with the Rugby Football Union, paving the way for the wing to stay in the Premiership with Leicester Tigers after the World Cup.

Watson is listed as “unattached” in the latest England squad update issued on Monday but Telegraph Sport understands the 29-year-old will be paid directly by the RFU through to the end of the World Cup after his previous contract with Leicester expired. Tigers are in pole position to re-sign Watson following the tournament.

French clubs, including Castres, had been circling Watson and it is thought the RFU was encouraged to make its move at the behest of England head coach Steve Borthwick, who wanted to keep him in the Premiership – and thus available for selection – after the World Cup. Watson was one of the few shining lights for England in a Six Nations campaign in which they finished fourth.

RFU insiders are at pains to emphasise this is not the same as a central contract like in Ireland, where the Irish Rugby Union directly pays the wages of its leading players. Instead it was an act of short-term expediency after Watson’s deal with Leicester came to an end. As Telegraph Sport previously reported, Watson struggled to find his market value in the Premiership as a result of the minimal salary-cap compensation clubs would receive during his lengthy absences in a World Cup season.

The move is not completely without precedent. Centre Ben Te’o was also offered a training contract before the 2019 World Cup, although that was rescinded when he was cut from Eddie Jones’s squad following his brawl with Mike Brown at a training camp in Treviso.
RFU and Leicester remain tight-lipped over deal

Yet the RFU is still playing with fire by signing Watson. Other Premiership clubs could perceive that the RFU is handing Leicester a unique advantage by paying for Watson’s absence during the World Cup. Such is the sensitivity of the subject that neither the RFU nor Leicester were prepared to comment upon the deal.

At the end of last season, Leicester were unable to re-sign Watson due to salary-cap restraints, but the training contract and Harry Potter’s departure to Western Force have opened up the fund for Watson to remain at Welford Road. Leicester have already bolstered their back-three options with the signings of Ollie Hassell-Collins and Josh Bassett from London Irish and Harlequins, while veteran full-back Mike Brown will remain at the club as cover during the World Cup.

Telegraph Sport also understands the RFU is proposing establishing a ‘hybrid contract’ for England’s leading players. This would give Borthwick and the RFU more control and input into the playing and training load of his main players in return for greater compensation. At present all clubs are paid £40,000 for every player provided to England’s Elite Player Squad, regardless if they are an established starter or unused player.
Information sharing may be key to entente cordiale

Premiership Rugby certainly recognises there should be greater recompense for providing England’s leading players but many clubs are resistant to the idea of losing autonomy over a player’s schedule. There is an increased sense of collaboration with England and the clubs agreeing to employ the same GPS units so they can monitor data on each other’s watch.

A sign of the more cordial relationship is underscored by the fact they have rebranded the Professional Game Agreement, which determines relations between the RFU and Premiership Rugby, as the Professional Game Partnership. However, while there are many areas of alignment, there is still a considerable difference of opinion on the cost of the PGP, which is due to begin in 2024.

Under the previous PGA, which was signed in 2016, the RFU paid the clubs £112 million for the first four years, with the second four-year period being linked to the RFU’s financial performance. After losing three Premiership clubs last season, the league is pushing for greater revenue. The RFU, however, is adamant it will not imperil the funding of the community game to prop up the Premiership. If it was to match or increase its backing, it would want greater input, whether in the form of hybrid contracts or a direct running of the academy system.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 21 Jul 2023, 8:08 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:It's the knock on affect though too Sam, of those getting places at say Bath, may impact others re the cap. I would be surprised at this point were there not some changes to the set PRL RFU agreement.

McConnochie is past his best and barely plays having signed a whopping four year deal way back. He's now opted for Scotland so he'd be an obvious casualty as Arundell would provide more value for club and country.

Wasn't thinking of a particular player...but he's still a mile better than Malins.

I'm not sure what Malins has to do with Bath or a sick note back three player who's declared for Scotland.

Jees, just offering up a point that losing 3 teams will impact players valuations and thus their choices from more than those 3. The point with Malins is that even a sick note player is better than him, especially when you consider the attack will be who can chase fastest and catch the ball best.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 21 Jul 2023, 8:10 am

So , step 1 with Watson to start testing the water.

by formerly known as Sam Fri 21 Jul 2023, 8:48 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:It's the knock on affect though too Sam, of those getting places at say Bath, may impact others re the cap. I would be surprised at this point were there not some changes to the set PRL RFU agreement.

McConnochie is past his best and barely plays having signed a whopping four year deal way back. He's now opted for Scotland so he'd be an obvious casualty as Arundell would provide more value for club and country.

Wasn't thinking of a particular player...but he's still a mile better than Malins.

I'm not sure what Malins has to do with Bath or a sick note back three player who's declared for Scotland.

Jees, just offering up a point that losing 3 teams will impact players valuations and thus their choices from more than those 3. The point with Malins is that even a sick note player is better than him, especially when you consider the attack will be who can chase fastest and catch the ball best.

Oh I agree with the impact of the three teams being lost but it's a chance for the league to improve its overall quality at a time of financial challenges. The one year exemption rule is entirely fair for me, Arundell should be available for next season just as Jack Willis was for this. Season after then it's be back in the Prem or sit out internationally.

Malins is in the side because he's a try machine for Sarries where kick chase is a factor. He'd not make my final side but then again I can see why he's picked.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 21 Jul 2023, 9:10 am

Well the agreement is up for negotiation isn't it, and I think there will be quite a bit of change in regards to contracts, playing outside the league and with the pay.

I'm all for looking at players doing well and giving them chances. I think Malins has had that chance, makes too many defensive errors, doesn't show his pace as an area of particular strength the level above, doesn't finish particularly well, makes poor choices and rarely ever tries to go outside his man, doesn't win many balls in the air, hasn't showed any play making abilities for England. Soooo, I get why he got the chance but don't see why he's still there now. Probably as king points out; his kicking. Which to bang the drum again, England are too preoccupied with.

by mountain man Fri 21 Jul 2023, 9:15 am

Has Malins kicked your dog? Seriously.

There are better wings around but he absolutely deserves to be in squad.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 21 Jul 2023, 9:17 am

My princess is fine thanks!

I've merely seen enough of him to think he isn't quite there for this level. Pretty much the same as Slade.

by lostinwales Fri 21 Jul 2023, 10:30 am

mountain man wrote:Has Malins kicked your dog? Seriously.

There are better wings around but he absolutely deserves to be in squad.

This just gives us all a chance to repeat our same arguments again. Mine is that he's very effective in the club game and against weaker international opposition, but just doesn't have the right skill set to be a force against the best opposition, where he often resembles a speed bump. We have been there before with Alex Goode, (who to be fair did have a couple of good performances for England but in general was a weak link). Malins has some value because of his versatility, but he's really not who you want lining up on the wing in the final of the RWC

by carpet baboon Fri 21 Jul 2023, 12:19 pm

Alex goode should have been a 10. He and England, would have been better for it.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 21 Jul 2023, 12:28 pm

Maybe if we hadn't had Ford and Farrell.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 21 Jul 2023, 12:28 pm

And Cipriani tbf.

by doctor_grey Fri 21 Jul 2023, 12:33 pm

lostinwales wrote:
mountain man wrote:Has Malins kicked your dog? Seriously.

There are better wings around but he absolutely deserves to be in squad.

This just gives us all a chance to repeat our same arguments again. Mine is that he's very effective in the club game and against weaker international opposition, but just doesn't have the right skill set to be a force against the best opposition, where he often resembles a speed bump. We have been there before with Alex Goode, (who to be fair did have a couple of good performances for England but in general was a weak link). Malins has some value because of his versatility, but he's really not who you want lining up on the wing in the final of the RWC

Thank goodness I can re-hash my old arguments. Yesterday was a long day, had some unanticipated emergencies to deal with on the work front, and I'm far too lazy on a Friday morn to come up with new arguments.

That said, I agree about Malins. He has the attacking skills, but doesn't show it much, or maybe just not when something is on (judgement). And defensively, well, no. I thought one of the justifications for Malins to be included is that he can function as an additional playmaker. But if Farrell is at 12, what's the point?

To take that to an extreme but not impossible scenario, if the backs include Ford/Smith at 10, Farrell at 12, Slade at 13, and Malins at 11/15 then England would potentially have 4 playmakers with only one or maybe two backs who can run at a defense and actually attack. I know this is low probability, but given England, not impossible.

by mountain man Fri 21 Jul 2023, 12:49 pm

Well to be honest if England play Farrell at 12 and Slade at 13 we're doomed anyway, regardless of whether Malins in team or not.
I'm not saying Malins should be starting wing but given his form for Saracens, his inclusion in 6N etc then I'd be amazed if he's not in RWC squad.

Issue for Eng isn't Malins, it's who is 9, who is 10, who is 12 and who is 13. Sort THOSE positions out first then worry about which wings to pick.

by Poorfour Fri 21 Jul 2023, 12:51 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Maybe if we hadn't had Ford and Farrell.

Well, more specifically if Saracens hadn't had Goode and Farrell at the same time. I can remember Goode facing off against Greenwood in the original Help for Heroes game, and it was clear that they were the biggest rugby brains on the pitch. But Farrell was very much the right sort of flyhalf for Sarries power-and-structure gameplan, in which Goode then added the vision when the field broke up.

You could probably say the same for Malins. He was a U20 flyhalf, IIRC, but has been in teams where he's not had the chance to develop that position at senior level. He's got a good all round skillset and reading of the game for a wing/fullback, but doesn't seem to have the killer instinct that the best international wings do, and there are better fullbacks around.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 21 Jul 2023, 1:02 pm

I do think Malins would have been a better fly half than full back or winger. Again though probably not better than others already there.

by lostinwales Fri 21 Jul 2023, 1:28 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I do think Malins would have been a better fly half than full back or winger. Again though probably not better than others already there.

No actual idea but I think there was some concern about his speed of response at 10 (trying to think of a nice way to put it which doesn't imply he's slow of thinking, which I don't think he is). Hasn't stopped Farrell of course....

He did look like a decent 15 at U20.

It was great to see how fit Cokanasiga looked in the last England video (unless appearing in one of the England videos is a kiss of death). I would not be at all surprised to see him make the cut.

by **Rugby Fan** Fri 21 Jul 2023, 1:40 pm

Poorfour wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Maybe if we hadn't had Ford and Farrell.

Well, more specifically if Saracens hadn't had Goode and Farrell at the same time.

Charlie Hodgson retired from Test rugby in 2012 but kept playing for Saracens until 2016, so there wasnt much scope for Goode to play fly-half in that period. It was Hodgson's injury which meant Farrell got thrown in at the deep end at club level earlier than might have been scheduled. He was out on loan for the 2010/11 season but was brought back. (I've always thought that was partly a factor behind Ford leaving Leicester the first time. He wasn't getting enough starts compared with his U20 teamate, as Leicester had Toby Flood).

Saracens also had Alex Lozowski who, at the start of his career, was regarded, like Farrell, as a fly-half and inside centre. At one stage, thinking about potential competition for the England fly-half spot in a post-Wilkinson world, you'd see Cipriani, Farrell, Ford, Lozowski, Twelvetrees and Mallinder all mentioned before Alex Goode. In retrospect, we can see Goode as an accomplished club 10, who might done a job at Test level. However, it was never really a consideration at the time. Oddly enough, Eddie Jones started to use Furbank in the sort of role which Goode could have managed.

by formerly known as Sam Fri 21 Jul 2023, 4:31 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Maybe if we hadn't had Ford and Farrell.

Well, more specifically if Saracens hadn't had Goode and Farrell at the same time.

Charlie Hodgson retired from Test rugby in 2012 but kept playing for Saracens until 2016, so there wasnt much scope for Goode to play fly-half in that period. It was Hodgson's injury which meant Farrell got thrown in at the deep end at club level earlier than might have been scheduled. He was out on loan for the 2010/11 season but was brought back. (I've always thought that was partly a factor behind Ford leaving Leicester the first time. He wasn't getting enough starts compared with his U20 teamate, as Leicester had Toby Flood).

Farrell won a Prem trophy starting at 10 before Hodgson joined Sarries. Derrick Hougaard was the flyhalf brought in after Jackson retired but he busted his knee and Farrell ended up playing more than intended.

Ford left Tigers where he was a back up for Flood because his dad got the job at Bath and wanted a starting flyhalf. More starts were definitely part of it though he played a lot for a young player, he is two years younger than Farrell.

by doctor_grey Fri 21 Jul 2023, 7:31 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Maybe if we hadn't had Ford and Farrell.

Well, more specifically if Saracens hadn't had Goode and Farrell at the same time.

Charlie Hodgson retired from Test rugby in 2012 but kept playing for Saracens until 2016, so there wasnt much scope for Goode to play fly-half in that period. It was Hodgson's injury which meant Farrell got thrown in at the deep end at club level earlier than might have been scheduled. He was out on loan for the 2010/11 season but was brought back. (I've always thought that was partly a factor behind Ford leaving Leicester the first time. He wasn't getting enough starts compared with his U20 teamate, as Leicester had Toby Flood).

Farrell won a Prem trophy starting at 10 before Hodgson joined Sarries. Derrick Hougaard was the flyhalf brought in after Jackson retired but he busted his knee and Farrell ended up playing more than intended.

Ford left Tigers where he was a back up for Flood because his dad got the job at Bath and wanted a starting flyhalf. More starts were definitely part of it though he played a lot for a young player, he is two years younger than Farrell.

Derrick Hougaard? Name from the past.
Every time I hear that name, I automatically think of Brian Lima:
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2096754377299960

by king_carlos Fri 21 Jul 2023, 7:39 pm

Houggard has been in wars recently, sadly. Discovered unconscious, taken to hospital with respiratory pneumonia and in a coma for time. Thankfully he's now woken from the coma and isn't displaying signs of brain damage. So hopefully he can make a full recovery.

Samoa had a good side and several memorable moments in 2003. Lima, Sititi, Fa'atua, So'oialo, a young Tagicakibau. Fun watching.

by formerly known as Sam Fri 21 Jul 2023, 9:10 pm

king_carlos wrote:Houggard has been in wars recently, sadly. Discovered unconscious, taken to hospital with respiratory pneumonia and in a coma for time. Thankfully he's now woken from the coma and isn't displaying signs of brain damage. So hopefully he can make a full recovery.

Yeah was a bit of a shock, not any real age. Was glad to hear he was on the mend. Didn't have much luck with injuries and despite helping the Bulls to the title he probably is most well known for being cut in half by Lima.

by **Rugby Fan** Sat 22 Jul 2023, 1:53 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:...Farrell won a Prem trophy starting at 10 before Hodgson joined Sarries. Derrick Hougaard was the flyhalf brought in after Jackson retired but he busted his knee and Farrell ended up playing more than intended...

Oh, Yes! Clearly, I made up my own version of history. Maybe that girl at schoold didn't like me as much as I tell myself today.

by doctor_grey Sat 22 Jul 2023, 8:16 am

I hadn't seen any news about Hougaard. Sounds sad.

In addition to remembering him as the guy Brian Lima cut in half, I also remember him as the 10 in the Bulls mauling a bad Reds team 92-3 back in 2007. I remember they had to win by a ridiculous amount (60? 70?) in order to gain a home playoff game.

by hugehandoff Sat 22 Jul 2023, 8:45 am

[quote="mountain man"

Issue for Eng isn't Malins, it's who is 9, who is 10, who is 12 and who is 13. Sort THOSE positions out first then worry about which wings to pick.[/quote]

Exactement Monsieur. Our lack of a world class 12 has hampered us for years. Farrell is clearly a much better 10 than 12, but he ends up at 12 as still a decent option compared to the other choices. If they are all nicely fit after the summer then the old combo of Manu and Slade could work but equally so Lawrence plus Slade. I think Slade is our best defender in the wider channels plus his left boot is handy. Until this area is resolved we will remain a team with little potency and be eminently beatable.

by Geordie Sat 22 Jul 2023, 9:27 am

Im starting to think Arundell will start on one if the wings

by formerly known as Sam Sat 22 Jul 2023, 10:07 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:...Farrell won a Prem trophy starting at 10 before Hodgson joined Sarries. Derrick Hougaard was the flyhalf brought in after Jackson retired but he busted his knee and Farrell ended up playing more than intended...

Oh, Yes! Clearly, I made up my own version of history. Maybe that girl at schoold didn't like me as much as I tell myself today.

To be fair I probably have an advantage in remembering that as I was at the final he won. Now my memory isn't going to be 100% but I'm pretty sure Farrell kicked three times for every time he passed in that game.

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