England 2023 - Post 6N and beyond - Prep for WC

First topic message reminder :

Continued.....

Geordie wrote:Im starting to think Arundell will start on one if the wings  

There's probably a lack of flair and individual magic elsewhere.

Geordie wrote:Im starting to think Arundell will start on one if the wings  

pourquoi?

doctor_grey wrote:

Geordie wrote:Im starting to think Arundell will start on one if the wings  

pourquoi?

because there is little actual action from England currently and therefore we are left thinking too much about RWC permutations....dangerous stuff...e need some games and actual squad selection to end this endless thinking and debate

hugehandoff wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Geordie wrote:Im starting to think Arundell will start on one if the wings  

pourquoi?

because there is little actual action from England currently and therefore we are left thinking too much about RWC permutations....dangerous stuff...e need some games and actual squad selection to end this endless thinking and debate

Understand: In my experience, that 'thinking' stuff will only get one in trouble.

Because he's looking incredbily fast AND powerful together...something England lack in the backs

Lawrence and vunipola into the full squad...as is Rodd. Rapava-Ruskin dropped. Murley dropped. Sounds like Mako is touch and go as he's gone back to saracens.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Lawrence and vunipola into the full squad...as is Rodd. Rapava-Ruskin dropped. Murley dropped. Sounds like Mako is touch and go as he's gone back to saracens.

Disappointed to see VRR dropped, particularly for Mako. We've got experienced props on the squad already, VRR could have been a really good impact player.

Curious to see Rodd come back having been left out of the previous squad. I'll be interested to see if that's an injury to VRR as I wasn't expecting to see those guys recalled if not as injury cover.

I'd be very surprised to see Underhill return unless a flanker gets a knock for instance.

Good to see Lawrence and Billy available to fully train though.

This is very much the part of RWC build up where there is basically nothing to base discussion on though! 

So the cast of characters just got a wee bit smaller.  Borthwick must have seen something in Murley he didn't like (maybe being on the south side of 28 or 30?).

With the first RWC warm-up match on August 5, that will be the only warm-up match before the last cut-down to the final squad.  So we should be seeing the players on the bubble selected for this one.

doctor_grey wrote:So the cast of characters just got a wee bit smaller.  Borthwick must have seen something in Murley he didn't like (maybe being on the south side of 28 or 30?).

With the first RWC warm-up match on August 5, that will be the only warm-up match before the last cut-down to the final squad.  So we should be seeing the players on the bubble selected for this one.

JVP, Smith, Arundell, Lawrence, Marchant, Cokanasiga, Steward

We can still get an under 28 backline together and with Porter and Malins to spare.

I'd guess Borthwick was working on Murley's basics re kicking, kick chase and work under the high ball and there were stronger options in the squad. Shame because he's physical for his size, scores tries and is a reliable defender.

We could feasibly be lining up with almost the same team as the 2019 final come this world cup. Daly is dropped for Steward and no Underhill in the squad. What's not to love. Bench will be more than decimated though, with 5 from that game missing.

Who knows what's happening in training though. Seems like Borthwicks a real stats man, hard to see that being the reason for see sawing choices at loosehead though. Perhaps they always envisaged Mako coming through as the (diminishing these days) ball playing prop to balance out when Sinckler is off the pitch? Certainly Rodd is no slouch there, though R-R shows some beautiful touches at times. Cokanasiga offers something very different and if he can replicate that early England form, great. Watson and May were top quality talents, both on the way down now, and then Arundell definitely on the way up, but also off to France. And Malins, who offers encouragement that anyone can make it.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Lawrence and vunipola into the full squad...as is Rodd. Rapava-Ruskin dropped. Murley dropped. Sounds like Mako is touch and go as he's gone back to saracens.

Disappointed to see VRR dropped, particularly for Mako. We've got experienced props on the squad already, VRR could have been a really good impact player.

Not being there to see how training went etc we'll never know but I agree that is very disappointing.
Does Borthwick really think Mako is a better scrummager these days?

I thought Mako had gone back to Sarries for rehab? It's Billy who's in the squad now.

The interesting thing about this for me is the swap of Rodd for VRR, given there's no suggestion of injury - it suggests that players who are out for a given week aren't necessarily out permanently.

I guess we will see with next week's squad, but it may mean that the coaches are trying more specific tactics and combinations and rotating the edge cases through so that they can look at them in a bit more depth.

I guess the problem for Borthwick is that he has to name his final squad almost immediately after the first warm up game, so for players with limited or no international experience (or coming back from injury) he gets at most one chance to see them in action. It could be that that's driving more conservatism as the date approaches.

For players like VRR and Murley, if they aren't in the XXIII for that warm up game, then I would only expect them to make the squad in case of injury. For players returning from injury like Billy or Lawrence, it might mean something similar - though Billy probably has enough credit in the bank that they won't rush his recovery if he's expected to be fully fit sometime during the warm up run. It would be a big risk to take anyone to France without at least a run-out, though.

According to Charlie Morgan R-R isn't injured and is down to selection. Lack of Mako making it, in my mind Rodd is the most like for like replacement, so more to do with Mako not making a recovery target and thus stepping back to Saracens rather than just wanting a look at players?

Doesn't sound as if Mercer is on the standby list. Bet he's starting to wish he stayed in France where they appreciated him!

If Mako is called into the squad I am seriously considering supporting someone else!

He is a shadow of his former self.

Mr Bounce wrote:If Mako is called into the squad I am seriously considering supporting someone else!

He is a shadow of his former self.

Dnt be silly, no your not.

Clearly a system is in place. There's alot of chat to suggest the players are regularly told about what is needed, which makes it as fair as possible. If he's set some performance parameters then great, however what are these parameters and what are the drivers of them. Fitness and athletic prowess will only take you so far as a team. If he's true to form he's probably picking his best set piece forwards with backs who can play to a strict game plan and run the furthest and jump the highest. Ah well at least we can watch Fiji chuck the ball around a bit.

New England camp video. Wigglesworth says they were focusing on unstructured play, and now are layering on more structured training. Youngs and Care talk about their long-standing rivalry.

Rugby Fan wrote:New England camp video. Wigglesworth says they were focusing on unstructured play, and now are layering on more structured training. Youngs and Care talk about their long-standing rivalry.

The problem is for Wigglesworth 3-4 phases before a box kick is considered unstructured.

doctor_grey wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:New England camp video. Wigglesworth says they were focusing on unstructured play, and now are layering on more structured training. Youngs and Care talk about their long-standing rivalry.

The problem is for Wigglesworth 3-4 phases before a box kick is considered unstructured.

Even I think that's unfair. There'll be some charge downs. to play off.

Think those England Inside Line videos can be dismissed a bit of fluff, media exposure for team that's it.
I've watched a few but same old thing most of time.

Have barely watched any....

Heres a stat for you ive just plucked from elsewhere....

Since Ben Youngs’ Test debut in 2010, he and Danny Care have had 75% of minutes at scrum-half

In the same 13-year period, Jack Van Poortvliet is *already* third for Test starts

Shocking, but not surprising. And it's that sort of thing that may have steered Borthwicks hand here. However what strikes me about the choice to pick those 3 and the conversation from the v blog above (bored having my first cuppa, they are a bit dull) is that it is all focused on these last 10 years and not what's round the corner or on the doorstep now.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Shocking, but not surprising. And it's that sort of thing that may have steered Borthwicks hand here. However what strikes me about the choice to pick those 3 and the conversation from the v blog above (bored having my first cuppa, they are a bit dull) is that it is all focused on these last 10 years and not what's round the corner or on the doorstep now.

Yeah...i just wonder if hes going to go with more inexperience in the pack (George Martin, Tom Pearson, Blamire, Chessum (if fit) etc etc) and go with the old guard in the backs...as the style wont be blistering.

The young future forwards then get huge experience and then post world cup we can look at changing the back and throwing the old guard out for sday Kelly, Atkinson, Murley etc.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Shocking, but not surprising. And it's that sort of thing that may have steered Borthwicks hand here. However what strikes me about the choice to pick those 3 and the conversation from the v blog above (bored having my first cuppa, they are a bit dull) is that it is all focused on these last 10 years and not what's round the corner or on the doorstep now.

If Eddie had stayed in role, we might have expected him to bring through more of the younger players he was trying to develop... but I'll give Borthwick a bit of a pass on this. He inherited a squad with 9 matches to go before the RWC with a half-implemented tactical system and a clear lack of cohesion between the players. Under the circumstances, it's pretty reasonable for him to look at current form rather than potential over the next few years, because like it or not he will be expected to get to a semi final.

Wigglesworth has spoken about wanting to be the fastest learning team in the tournament, and in that context having a few players who have a lot of experience can be a bit of a shortcut to that when there are also going to be some very inexperienced players in the squad. Having players who've turned around bad games on the international stage gives you an additional resource.

What that needs to be tempered with is where players are in themselves. Recalling players like Care, Cole and Marler is fairly easy to justify given that they're in form and have the additional motivation of a last crack at the RWC. The second half of that applies to Youngs, the Vunipolas, May and Daly - but when they are either out of form or recovering from injuries you have to hope that they are really showing it in camp.

Since Ben Youngs debut

Youngs - 93 Caps
Care - 29
JVP - 9
Dickson - 8
Randall - 5
Wigglesworth - 5
Heinz - 4

Just reading Jo Simpson's comments on it. He's banging the people who criticise Youngs is merely not very knowledgeable of the game drum. It's too risky to play from your own half...you're likely to be stung.

He then goes on to say that box kicking isn't high on peopel's lists of good things to watch but that these 2 things basically mean the laws should be changed. Make it harder to turn over the ball along with some other ideas like enforce the laws around SHs playing the ball once it's secured.

And then onto the false idea that exciting risk taking doesn't win you tournaments, only kicking the life out of it does. So backwards.

It takes me back to those Wigglesworth comments on England cricket's approach. We obviously had the horrendous form prior to Bazball then an uptake. In this series we've failed to win the ashes back, but is that because of attacking cricket on in spite? Would a more negative approach have meant that Bairstow was a better keeper, or stopped the slightly dubious throwing at the stumps to get people out not attempting to run? Why is that considered a reason to play by the numbers but they way England played and lost in the 6Ns not a reason to encourage some ambition?

Youngs has developed into a very risk averse style, pretty much the opposite of Care who still holds true to playing what he sees even when it's high risk. They have both done well for their clubs but looked past their best on their last international outing so I'm hoping Borthwick has managed to find some fuel in their tanks for one last hurrah.

It's always easier to play attacking rugby when you've got strong fundamentals. You look at Ireland, France and the resurgent Kiwis and they all play great attacking rugby but at the same time they have good defensive shape, a coherent kicking game, a lineout and a scrum that work. Borthwick at least sorted some of those issues during the 6N but in most rebuilds a flowing attack tends to be added last.

Well it's always easier to defend well than to attack well, so normally that comes first, though not always. France have always been a dangerous side to play when they cut free even when their defence has been porous. Northampton are obviously the go to side for looking glorious in attack and shaky at the back. I do think a great attack is out of reach for a lot of coaches, some don't even try, leaning back on traditional rugby strengths etc.

As for Care and Youngs, the likelihood is that the former makes up minutes in the 'smaller' games, only a question of whether you have vP opening up the game late on. I think either way vP is better, I'd normally think Youngs to start but he has really got the gas to last the majority of the game. Experience to close out games may be the idea Borthwick has. I think we look like we're setting up a team that needs to strangle and be in the lead, so a lot rests on Farrell nailing his kicks. If we fall behind I'm not sure we're going to have enough spark to get back. In that respect Arundell from the bench may be the best option too.

Whichever you look at it Youngs isn't anywhere near best 9 available to Eng but he'll be in team. This much we know from Jones era and now seemingly with Borthwick. JvP looked the answer to the problem when he broke into team during Aus tour but since then gone backwards. Care great 9 but Eng missed his best years when Jones wouldn't pick him for whatever reason(spite?).

Personally as an Eng fan I find it a bit depressing we're stuck in same era of Youngs, Mako, Cole, Manu, May etc.
My hope is it's Borthwick sticking with mostly same old squad for this RWC but will fairly radically alter for 6N onwards. I'm not super optimistic though!
I've always stated that winning is everything especially Int rugby but unfortunately the same old players haven't been winning so unless SB has magically transformed the team I can see some attitritional, pretty dull matches coming up which result in Eng not going very far.

mountain man wrote:Whichever you look at it Youngs isn't anywhere near best 9 available to Eng but he'll be in team. This much we know from Jones era and now seemingly with Borthwick. JvP looked the answer to the problem when he broke into team during Aus tour but since then gone backwards. Care great 9 but Eng missed his best years when Jones wouldn't pick him for whatever reason(spite?).

Personally as an Eng fan I find it a bit depressing we're stuck in same era of Youngs, Mako, Cole, Manu, May etc.
My hope is it's Borthwick sticking with mostly same old squad for this RWC but will fairly radically alter for 6N onwards. I'm not super optimistic though!
I've always stated that winning is everything especially Int rugby but unfortunately the same old players haven't been winning so unless SB has magically transformed the team I can see some attitritional, pretty dull matches coming up which result in Eng not going very far.

This is what i think he will do.

Soooo, Billy Vunipola had some minor surgery on his knee last Friday. Still preferred over Mercer.

mountain man wrote:
My hope is it's Borthwick sticking with mostly same old squad for this RWC but will fairly radically alter for 6N onwards. I'm not super optimistic though!

My worry is that England do well at the RWC and the coaches will be pleased with them. Then we'll be stuck with the same group that are in a steady decline with no fresh players given a look in...

Mr Bounce wrote:

mountain man wrote:
My hope is it's Borthwick sticking with mostly same old squad for this RWC but will fairly radically alter for 6N onwards. I'm not super optimistic though!

My worry is that England do well at the RWC and the coaches will be pleased with them. Then we'll be stuck with the same group that are in a steady decline with no fresh players given a look in...

So if they do well theres no issue and you can rebuild slowly bringing the kids in when they are ready...whilst developing the style.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Soooo, Billy Vunipola had some minor surgery on his knee last Friday. Still preferred over Mercer.

Clearly Mercer didnt impress when he was in the squad....goes some way to what was said on here early that playing in France made him look better than he is.

Mercer has had his chance to impress and he obviously didn't. I don't see the issue with bringing a 60+ cap no 8 back into the fold who can still make the WC squad.

Geordie wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:

mountain man wrote:
My hope is it's Borthwick sticking with mostly same old squad for this RWC but will fairly radically alter for 6N onwards. I'm not super optimistic though!

My worry is that England do well at the RWC and the coaches will be pleased with them. Then we'll be stuck with the same group that are in a steady decline with no fresh players given a look in...

So if they do well theres no issue and you can rebuild slowly bringing the kids in when they are ready...whilst developing the style.

Depends what do well looks like. Superficially a semi against the home team where we get well outplayed may be fine.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Soooo, Billy Vunipola had some minor surgery on his knee last Friday. Still preferred over Mercer.

Clearly Mercer didnt impress when he was in the squad....goes some way to what was said on here early that playing in France made him look better than he is.

Yeah, but a good deal of other conversations were also about general fitness worries from players playing in the prem, so you know swings and roundabouts!

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Mercer has had his chance to impress and he obviously didn't. I don't see the issue with bringing a 60+ cap no 8 back into the fold who can still make the WC squad.

Depends if he's carrying injuries and having to have operations late into July for me. We all know that traditionally Vunipola rips up trees straight after injuries as well of course!

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:

mountain man wrote:
My hope is it's Borthwick sticking with mostly same old squad for this RWC but will fairly radically alter for 6N onwards. I'm not super optimistic though!

My worry is that England do well at the RWC and the coaches will be pleased with them. Then we'll be stuck with the same group that are in a steady decline with no fresh players given a look in...

So if they do well theres no issue and you can rebuild slowly bringing the kids in when they are ready...whilst developing the style.

Depends what do well looks like. Superficially a semi against the home team where we get well outplayed may be fine.

A semi final is what everyone expects due to our side of the draw so thats fine.

Also whos to say he wont bring new players in to the world cup. Id be amazed if Pearson and George Martin dont play prominent roles through the world cup, Chessum will if he gets fit. You'll definately have one of Theo Dan or Jamie Blamire maybe both if Walker isnt there....both explosive hookers in slightly different ways.

Dombrandts timing will surely have been fixed...and if he can suddenly hit his lines for England like he does for QUins...it'll be like having a new player and it adds another dimension to England's attack. If not...we have Tom Willis there.

Plus Lawrence should be there to continue his push for the centre spots....and hopefully an intense camp will have Cokasaniga in prime shape to cause damage all over the pitch.

Lots of old guard i agree...i wouldnt have there Youngs the obvious one...but Mako etc aswell...but the squad isnt totally old guard. Theres fresh roots and also hope that former hopefuls who have stalled might get back on the right path again.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Soooo, Billy Vunipola had some minor surgery on his knee last Friday. Still preferred over Mercer.

Clearly Mercer didnt impress when he was in the squad....goes some way to what was said on here early that playing in France made him look better than he is.

Yeah, but a good deal of other conversations were also about general fitness worries from players playing in the prem, so you know swings and roundabouts!

But most of the fitness worries seems to be falling away now. Only a couple left in that bracket.

Fair enough. I'd rather have Mercer especially when Billy is having to have ops less than a week ago.

For all the optimism that some of the combos could bring, I reckon we could be well set to see Lawes Curry Vunipola Youngs Watson Ford Farrell Slade May. So that's where I am.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fair enough. I'd rather have Mercer especially when Billy is having to have ops less than a week ago.

For all the optimism that some of the combos could bring, I reckon we could be well set to see Lawes Curry Vunipola Youngs Watson Ford Farrell Slade May. So that's where I am.

I cant see Slade, Lawes or May starting...

I'm really hoping we've seen the last of the Farrell, Slade centre combination. It really was horrendous watching George Ford just get smashed behind the gain line whilst desperately looking to run a line for him and those two just stood there both wanting to be the option in behind the other.

Lawes I can see being used as an impact sub. Maybe in the 19 shirt. Emergency lock cover but more like to come into the backrow and just hit things.

I think we will see 10.Ford 12.Farrell in the warmups at least. It seemed very odd to build a structure in the Six Nations that requires two playmakers if we aren't going to use two playmakers. After the Scotland game Smith-Farrell was clearly discarded but I don't think Ford-Farrell is quite done. I rate that partnership unlike many though so trying it again doesn't bother me massively.

I don't think Slade at 13 or May on the wing are nailed on at all. After the Scotland game the big change in the back line was having a carrier in midfield be it Lawrence or Manu with the centres.

In the back three I'd guess May is a reserve for Watson who performed a role of covering a lot of ground in the Six Nations. I actually found the minutiae of how England arranged their back three for receiving kicks interesting amongst some poor performances. The modern kicking game is all about manipulating the opposition back three to isolate someone who is a poor kicker or poor under the high ball. By regularly dropping one of their half backs into the back field for kicking battles England assured they had three strong tactical kickers available at most points. To counter the halfbacks not being as strong under the high ball they then used a mixture of their own kick chase and positioning to get Steward under as many contestable high balls as possible. Which in turn meant whichever wing was back, more often Watson but also Malins at times to his credit, covering a lot of turf even if they would get fewer contestable high balls.

It's one area that worked relatively well. Against Scotland the kicking game definitely worked but the defence had woeful lapses. It worked against Wales and Italy. Whilst it didn't fall apart against Ireland after Steward's red card. Against France we didn't learn anything much from the backs realistically.

Before getting injured I suspect Daly was the first choice for the role Malins filled of being able to cover a lot of ground if Watson was unavailable but also being a stronger kicker than most wingers if a halfback wasn't there. Early in the season Daly looked back to his very best which was great to see.

It was a small but clever shift in defensive structure that I thought showed promise when it came to improving the quality of the tactical kicking game.

Back row I'm honestly not sure what to expect yet. Pearson being retained after Underhill was released means he clearly rated and offers something the others don't as a 7 who's explosive carrying. Ludlam was the most consistent of a poor back row in the Six Nations whilst Willis has upsides but hasn't shown them consistently at the highest level. He has been impressive in the Top 14 though. Lawes, at full fitness, is stronger than all those three in the tackle, better than Ludlam or Willis carrying, and of course adds to the lineout. Many scoff at the last part but having a genuine third jumper adds hugely to lineout defence, which isn't sexy, but is important. I'd say only Curry is nailed on from all the back row option. Be that at 6 or 7 depending on the balance they go for.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:

mountain man wrote:
My hope is it's Borthwick sticking with mostly same old squad for this RWC but will fairly radically alter for 6N onwards. I'm not super optimistic though!

My worry is that England do well at the RWC and the coaches will be pleased with them. Then we'll be stuck with the same group that are in a steady decline with no fresh players given a look in...

So if they do well theres no issue and you can rebuild slowly bringing the kids in when they are ready...whilst developing the style.

Depends what do well looks like. Superficially a semi against the home team where we get well outplayed may be fine.

A semi final is what everyone expects due to our side of the draw so thats fine.

Also whos to say he wont bring new players in to the world cup. Id be amazed if Pearson and George Martin dont play prominent roles through the world cup, Chessum will if he gets fit. You'll definately have one of Theo Dan or Jamie Blamire maybe both if Walker isnt there....both explosive hookers in slightly different ways.

Dombrandts timing will surely have been fixed...and if he can suddenly hit his lines for England like he does for QUins...it'll be like having a new player and it adds another dimension to England's attack. If not...we have Tom Willis there.

Plus Lawrence should be there to continue his push for the centre spots....and hopefully an intense camp will have Cokasaniga in prime shape to cause damage all over the pitch.

Lots of old guard i agree...i wouldnt have there Youngs the obvious one...but Mako etc aswell...but the squad isnt totally old guard. Theres fresh roots and also hope that former hopefuls who have stalled might get back on the right path again.

So, is a semi-final (even if England get bitchslapped) is the expectation?
So anything more exceeds expectations. But anythng less is falling short? Just want to be clear.

I'd say that's the case given the run of games I'd expect.

I think getting to SF even given "easy" draw is not expectation for me but realistic best result. If Eng get to SF that would exceed expectation to be honest given how poor they were in 6N.

It's both for me. Even with Argentina beating us last game you'd expect us to win more than we lose. The rest of the group should be beaten. Likely Wales....who are brave enough to go with youth. If we go out to them then Borthwick really has got things drastically wrong. Then lose to France.