England 2023 - Post 6N and beyond - Prep for WC

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Continued.....

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nope. Our wingers are there for kick chases and kicking rather than finishing chances.

We did plenty of that before the world cup as well.

May was the best at doing both anyway. I don't see finishing as very high up the list of requirements though for our wingers at the moment, perhaps more nice to have as long as they fit the system?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nope. Our wingers are there for kick chases and kicking rather than finishing chances.

We did plenty of that before the world cup as well.

May was the best at doing both anyway. I don't see finishing as very high up the list of requirements though for our wingers at the moment, perhaps more nice to have as long as they fit the system?

Watson is a more than handy finisher. As is Malins at club level. May is back in the squad, presumably with the hope he can refind his previous form. Murley has been in and training with them to see if he's got the all round game as well as the finishing skills.

It's something Borthwick wants but needs to be combined with basics. If we use club selection as a guide work rate and solid basics were expected. Finishing ability was important but only if combined with the expected elements.

Think we're both pretty much saying the same thing?

mountain man wrote:

Hes not a try scorer at prem level yet....Murley is...

I almost get impression you are being awkward on purpose, maybe I got it wrong.

I'm not arguing FOR Malins, in fact several times I have said I'd take Arundell over him or May.
Malins however, can and does score tries. He got 9 Prem tries to Murley 15. Not sure on stats in other comps.

And yet Malins has scored 2 in 15 for England...sp clearly issues.

Arundell is a talent but as of yet bar a few highlight reel moments hes done very little. And seems to be another injury prone player.
Murley has proven himself in the prem at a young age and whilst not flashy is efficient and effective on the wing.  Hence why he'd be my choice for the squad

Geordie wrote:

mountain man wrote:

Hes not a try scorer at prem level yet....Murley is...

I almost get impression you are being awkward on purpose, maybe I got it wrong.

I'm not arguing FOR Malins, in fact several times I have said I'd take Arundell over him or May.
Malins however, can and does score tries. He got 9 Prem tries to Murley 15. Not sure on stats in other comps.

And yet Malins has scored 2 in 15 for England...sp clearly issues.

Arundell is a talent but as of yet bar a few highlight reel moments hes done very little. And seems to be another injury prone player.
Murley has proven himself in the prem at a young age and whilst not flashy is efficient and effective on the wing.  Hence why he'd be my choice for the squad

The best ability is availability!

Correct Dr....

Murley’s more than just a finisher. Rugbypass did an article comparing the England wingers last week. They focused on Arundell, Malins and Cokanasiga (‘cos they were the ones in the squad at the time), but the final couple of graphs compared them to their Premiership peers.

One thing they looked at was where players scored their tries from. Most wingers score most of their tries from inside the 22, with some variation in how far out they start - Cokanasiga starting just inside the 22 compared to most of his peers. There are a few - Carreras and Radwan in particular, who score mostly from much longer range. Murley was the player who best balanced both - almost as many long range tries as Carreras, and more close range ones than anyone. He also (unsurprisingly) topped the tries per game table, but also (a bit more surprisingly) was one of the highest in the tries per carry stakes.

I can understand why Borthwick might not take him - his size counts against him in a kicking-based strategy - but that combination of versatility and efficiency would be a big differentiator if it translates to the international game.

Has it been confirmed Arundell is in fact injured and out of contention, anyone know? Also Curry?

Unfortunately even if everyone is 100% fit going into these warms up games there are bound to be injuries and hence replacements called up.

I don't think we can know for sure exact squad until RWC starts, even though supposedly it's announced on Monday. There are going to be changes.

Headline and article which is simply remarkable. Surgery for a dilated aorta then playing soon after. I called a friend who is a cardiologist and she said Nick is extremely fortunate.

"Nick Isiekwe had open-heart surgery and then played four months later"

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/08/04/nick-isiekwe-reveals-he-had-open-heart-surgery-last-season/

doctor_grey wrote:Headline and article which is simply remarkable.  Surgery for a dilated aorta then playing soon after.  I called a friend who is a cardiologist and she said Nick is extremely fortunate.    

"Nick Isiekwe had open-heart surgery and then played four months later"

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/08/04/nick-isiekwe-reveals-he-had-open-heart-surgery-last-season/

Incredible story. To return to playing inside four months is remarkable.

mountain man wrote:Has it been confirmed Arundell is in fact injured and out of contention, anyone know? Also Curry?

Borthwick doesn't like discussing injuries, don't hold your breath waiting for an update.

Japan comfortably beaten by Fiji. 12 35

doctor_grey wrote:Headline and article which is simply remarkable.  Surgery for a dilated aorta then playing soon after.  I called a friend who is a cardiologist and she said Nick is extremely fortunate.    

"Nick Isiekwe had open-heart surgery and then played four months later"

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/08/04/nick-isiekwe-reveals-he-had-open-heart-surgery-last-season/

Flip me. That's quite quite incredible.

That’s nothing. Things were tough when I were a lad… When Jason Leonard was playing, he had major spinal surgery on his neck and returned to playing without missing a single Test.

That is remarkable, though, and I’m very relieved for Isiekwe. That could have been a life ended, let alone a career ender.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Japan comfortably beaten by Fiji. 12 35

A red card for Japan in the first 10 minutes and both sides looking fairly different from what I'd expect at a RWC it's worth noting here.

It looks like Yato and Ratuniyarawa will miss the RWC to ensure good deals in France. Which is really sad. Yato is a fantastic player whilst the evergreen Api should be in the second row with Mayanavanua which would represent their best lock pairing for a fair while.

Even so Fiji were missing the likes of Radrada, Ravouvou, Tuisova, Botia and Mata as well. From scanning Fiji's team it looks a lot like a fair few of the lower profile players based in France, Drua standouts and a smattering of experience such as Nayacalevu and Tuisue.

Fiji have a real logjam in the centres with Nayacalevu and Tuisova having moved there at club level. Radrada and Ravouvou would presumably be their most dangerous pairing if fit though. But Botitu is a very good player. Even Maqala is a 13 for Bayonne, and a very good one, but is being used by them at 15. I suspect they may try to fit Maqala, Nayacalevu (skipper) and Tuisova into the back three.

As always there is plenty of firepower in the Fiji squad though. Whilst their tight five should be better. Mawi and Matavesi from the Prem and Tagi from Provence. Their scrum should be better. In a way that just adds to it being such a shame that Api won't be there to strengthen the lineout as well though.

Whilst Japan of course had Leitch suspended, didn't start Nakamura, were missing Yamanaki at fullback (which would allow Matsushima to play wing), etc. Looking at their their sides across the PNC there's been significant changes game to game with only the standouts in key positions such as Himeno, Inagaki and Dylan Riley (a really good 13 to watch out for at the RWC) being picked in all games. Very much Joseph checking out his squad.

There are some previous standouts for Japan that have been out of favour though. Yutuka Nagare is a brilliant 9 but has barely been starting in the Top League. Whilst powerful number 8 Tevita Tatafu made one bench app in the PNC. Lomano Lemeki often looked a good outside back when I saw him too but hasn't been capped since 2022 - he's back in the training squad.

Well 2 decent games I've managed to catch so far in the nz aus and Scot France game. Hattrick to come.

Is anyone having trouble viewing the game on prime? I can't find any rugby?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mountain man wrote:Has it been confirmed Arundell is in fact injured and out of contention, anyone know? Also Curry?

Borthwick doesn't like discussing injuries, don't hold your breath waiting for an update.

I suspect he'll have to waver on that a bit with England. Tigers kept a remarkably tight ship rumours wise under Borthwick but that's much easier at a club where sources of leaks can be realistically found and reprimanded. With England there are just too many players, and therefore clubs, plus back room staff involved though. Journalists have far more access as there's more interest too. So things will leak out.

We are already seeing the Torygraph and Daily Heil reporting 'rumours' on matchday selection and squads that are absolutely bang on as they were under Jones.

Geordie wrote:Is anyone having trouble viewing the game on prime? I can't find any rugby?

No. Just dropped down into sport on the subsection on home. Then it's front and centre

Prime's working grand for me.

I've got off work slightly early so will get to watch the match, which I wasn't expecting. I've honestly unplugged from the England side of rugby almost completely for a while. I haven't done that for a long time. I logged into the Tigers unoffy forum for the first time in ages to catch up on the academy promotions and saw that they hadn't been announced for instance.

Outside of spotting the odd bit of news such as Underhill being released when checking the Ashes score on the Beeb I've had a nice decompression from it all. I've not even watched the RFU YouTube stuff from the camps which actually think they do a really good job with to be fair.

Anything could have changed. We might be world beaters. Marrying breath taking attack with suffocating defence. Silky hands with dominant hits. Sinckler might be at his best. Dombrandt might be a professional athlete. I'm rather excited.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:Is anyone having trouble viewing the game on prime? I can't find any rugby?

No. Just dropped down into sport on the subsection on home. Then it's front and centre

Hhmm I've got nothing. Not even giving me the option and I have prime

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/video/detail/B0C7DQXLRG/ref=atv_dp_amz_c_tIaIhm_2_2?jic=8%7CEgNhbGw%3D

Try that link, Geordie?

Pitch is crap then. Evens up an area where we should be good.

Nice from Steward that run.

Ella's injured already.

A couple of attacks looking good early then thwarted by a knock on from either lock.

They seem to be running two forward carriers off 9 with one support player behind to complete the pod. Rather than one carrier and two support players. It gives 9 two options that he can hit late but also offers that one forward behind to pull the ball back to, who then shifts it to a playmaker as they did occasionally in the AIs and Six Nations.

Pearson is very powerful and Jac Morgan is very good at the breakdown.

Well the scrum against an already depleted Wales is eeking out a lead.

Marcus Smith’s bouncy hair really annoys me.

king_carlos wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mountain man wrote:Has it been confirmed Arundell is in fact injured and out of contention, anyone know? Also Curry?

Borthwick doesn't like discussing injuries, don't hold your breath waiting for an update.

I suspect he'll have to waver on that a bit with England. Tigers kept a remarkably tight ship rumours wise under Borthwick but that's much easier at a club where sources of leaks can be realistically found and reprimanded. With England there are just too many players, and therefore clubs, plus back room staff involved though. Journalists have far more access as there's more interest too. So things will leak out.

We are already seeing the Torygraph and Daily Heil reporting 'rumours' on matchday selection and squads that are absolutely bang on as they were under Jones.

England have confirmed that Turry rolled his ankle but they are confident he'll play this month, i.e. the warmups. Arundell had a hammy tweak but returned to full training on Thursday.

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:Marcus Smith’s bouncy hair really annoys me.

You more a Dan Cole man?

Amazon are such a bad broadcaster. Terrible sound quality now.

Sound's the same as the start on mine. Is it out of sync or just poor quality for you, 7.5? Might be a internet issue.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Amazon are such a bad broadcaster. Terrible sound quality now.

Mine’s been fine on both matches so far. Sky Stream over fibre.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:Marcus Smith’s bouncy hair really annoys me.

You more a Dan Cole man?

I s’pose I am!

king_carlos wrote:Sound's the same as the start on mine. Is it out of sync or just poor quality for you, 7.5? Might be a internet issue.

Echoing on commentary but not on ref mic or crowd noise.

Cokanasiga having a nightmare with every kick. Looks like a looming daly.

Two drops of kicks by big Joe. So far the game is rather pedestrian, at least from an England perspective. One could replace pedestrian with boring.

That's the issue with Cokanasiga. He has weaknesses in positioning, under the high ball and in the tackle compared to most international wingers. Plus he has little kicking game. Hiding one of those is possible. Hiding all of them, not so easy.

Costelow seems quite good so far in getting Wales moving in attack. Opposite to Biggar in terms of positioning and attacking shape.

Damn, Rees-Zammit nearly through but for tripping himself up!

Ludlam has been impressive so far. He's turned into a really consistent all-rounder.

king_carlos wrote:That's the issue with Cokanasiga. He has weaknesses in positioning, under the high ball and in the tackle compared to most international wingers. Plus he has little kicking game. Hiding one of those is possible. Hiding all of them, not so easy.

I dunno. The ball hit him in the hands both times.

So remind me again, why is Malins out there?

Nice couple of passages of play. It's gets to either winger and I'm not confident they're finishing things.

king_carlos wrote:Ludlam has been impressive so far. He's turned into a really consistent all-rounder.

Pearson has been everywhere as well. Really nice combination on the flanks.

England just a bit inaccurate at key times.

Decent start but a little flat from us after that. Cockanasiga playing his way out of contention it would seem....somewhat similar with Blamire who's making little errors a lot. Marchant playing well in off and def.

The commentary team are bloody awful I might add....

Finally....33 mins I'm on.

What have I missed.

Geordie wrote:Finally....33 mins I'm on.

What have I missed.

BorthwickBall.

Geordie wrote:Finally....33 mins I'm on.

What have I missed.

6 points by each side.

Pearson is a physical bugger

Plenty of chances but a lack of precision at the key moments from England. Frustrating to watch.

Genge has been very good so far.

Ribbans and Martin seem a well balanced lock pairing. Ribbans carrying more but Martin making the hits.

Blamire has been fairly quiet but saved Cokanasiga from a try costing mistake with his tap tackle on LRZ as he came through on that inside ball early on.

Stuart and Porter not having great games so far. A second knock on from Porter as I type that.

Ludlam is definitely the pick so far for England. Probably Genge and Smith after that. Steward solid as ever.