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England 2023 - Post 6N and beyond - Prep for WC

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Fri Jun 30, 2023 1:38 pm

First topic message reminder :

Continued.....

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Post by Mr Bounce Sat Aug 05, 2023 8:34 pm

I have NEVER been more disappointed with an England performance.

No attack at ALL.

May be two or 3 players came out of that with credit. Ludlum was ok, George Martin was good but not outstanding and Joe Marchant was his usual self, i.e. quick with half decent hands. Everyone else including the coaching team can get in the bin.

Utterly woeful.

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Post by king_carlos Sat Aug 05, 2023 8:36 pm

Well, that was abysmal. Most of the first choice team are missing but even so it's been a truly rubbish performance from England. The number of handling errors was startling.

Ludlam the pick with Pearson also good. Smith leaves in credit. As do Genge and Ribbans for me. Marchant was the best of the outside backs I'd say. That's about it though.

Dan, Rodd, Hill, Porter and Cokanasiga should all have played themselves off the plane. Tom Willis probably in the camp of not doing much wrong but not enough right to demand selection either.

Jac Morgan a very deserving MOM though. He's a world class 7 in the making. A player I can see myself enjoying watch for years to come. Just constantly making positive contributions in attack and defence.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat Aug 05, 2023 8:36 pm

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:Dirty from Pearson. Naughty boy.

Didn't make contact with the head and Bigger was holding the ball on the floor. Should have been an England penalty.

England second half was woeful at best. Wales seemed to gel as the game went on but England looked progressively worse.

Care and Smith played well in the first half but neither bothered to come out after half time. Pearson faded spectacularly.

Hill and Dan were a waste of space off the bench. Porter will also be back at Tigers next week.

On the positive side Ludlam played well, Genge captained well and no England player made more carries or tackles than George Martin. Marchant showed up well and Steward looked half decent.

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Post by mountain man Sat Aug 05, 2023 8:38 pm

Diabolical.
Steward Ludlum and Marchant were only positives perhaps.
With so many handling errors it's hard to single out worst ones!

This improved scrum I read about about, where's that gone?
A decent side will slaughter this lot.
Truly awful.
I'd say Joe C, Porter, Malins won't be in RWC squad or shouldn't be on that showing.
Sinckler awful when he came in
Stuart good in first half.
Smith first half was ok.
Care far too slow.
FFS get Mitchell in!

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat Aug 05, 2023 8:39 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:.

No attack at ALL.

There was a lot of attack in the first half. Quite frankly we battered them in the first half. We turned over the ball 23 times though. You can't do that and win a test match, particularly away from home. That was a pretty strong Welsh team.

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Post by mountain man Sat Aug 05, 2023 8:42 pm

I thought that was a pretty average Welsh team to be honest, just England second half made them look like prime NZ.

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Post by Mr Bounce Sat Aug 05, 2023 8:46 pm

Can somebody call Stuart Lancaster? I think his country might need him back...

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Post by TJ Sat Aug 05, 2023 8:53 pm

mountain man wrote:I thought that was a pretty average Welsh team to be honest, just England second half made them look like prime NZ.

IMO? Poor welsh team that grew into confidence late on. England were very poor indeed. No pace, no guile, no leadership

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat Aug 05, 2023 8:56 pm

Woah...Lancaster did plenty of good. He trusted youth and left Jones with a class set of player to take off from.

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Post by TAFKA The Oracle Sat Aug 05, 2023 8:58 pm

mountain man wrote:I thought that was a pretty average Welsh team to be honest, just England second half made them look like prime NZ.

Yeah, not sure I’d call it a strong Wales team either. Loads of unknowns and players with questions marks over them, more than anything. New props with zero international experience. Probably 2nd and 3rd choice hookers. New look back line. A number of debutants. A young lock with little experience. A 10 with constant question marks over his defence (but decent in attack for club). Brand new combos in various places, e.g. back row. I think we also played a lot of the 2nd half with a back in the forwards as we brought on Grady I think for a forward (hence George North playing flanker in the scrums).

Not reading too much into it though. Just a World Cup warm up game. England will come good for the WC.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat Aug 05, 2023 8:59 pm

OK, based on the cut day is tomorrow, here are my thoughts who I would drop and how the rest played.  

Please note:  No analytics have been used in this analysis, and no analysts were injured processing this information.  

15 Freddie Steward locked in
14 Max Malins drop
13 Joe Marchant keep
12 Guy Porter drop
11 Joe Cokanasiga drop
10 Marcus Smith  meh
9 Danny Care meh
8 Alex Dombrandt sub-meh
7 Tom Pearson keep
6 Lewis Ludlam locked in
5 George Martin keep
4 David Ribbans keep
3 Will Stuart bye
2 Jamie Blamire meh 
1 Ellis Genge  locked in
16 Theo Dan hasta la   vista
17 Bevan Rodd meh
18 Kyle Sinckler meh
19 Jonny Hill why???
20 Tom Willis  keep
21 Jack van Poortvliet meh
22 George Ford n/a
23 Henry Slade. n/a

Who do I think actually played well?
Steward, Marchant, Pearson, Ludlum

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Post by mountain man Sat Aug 05, 2023 8:59 pm

TJ wrote:
mountain man wrote:I thought that was a pretty average Welsh team to be honest, just England second half made them look like prime NZ.

IMO?  Poor welsh team that grew into confidence late on.  England were very poor indeed.  No pace, no guile, no leadership

It was my reply to Sam who said that was a pretty strong Welsh side. I thought pretty average just made to look good in second half by an awful team wearing England shirts

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Post by mountain man Sat Aug 05, 2023 9:04 pm

I thought Stuart was Ok first half as was Smith. Willis not enough time to know really.
Rest probably agree with above table

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Post by Heaf Sat Aug 05, 2023 9:04 pm

If England had converted even just a few of the chances they created in the 1st half it probably would have been a very different game, but the handling errors were atrocious - I heard someone on commentary (may have been Warbs) saying with the roof closed the ball got slippy, but Wales didn't seem to have a problem holding on to it - even though admittedly they had less of it to drop in the 1st half.

Either way though, the complete fading away in the 2nd half was inexcusable ...

And on the subject of commentary am I the only one that finds Andy Goode a bit irritating? Much rather listen to Warbs ...

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Post by mikey_dragon Sat Aug 05, 2023 9:04 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well looking for positives. Please can someone tell me what they are? Possibly moves the exit of Borthick on a touch but apart from that?

Probably be 15 or 16 changes for England next week, positive? The knock-ons killed them off but they’ll improve in time. Wales not great but much better defence than in the 6N.

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Post by Geordie Sat Aug 05, 2023 9:05 pm

I didn't see most of the first half...but if Coka and Malins were as bad as the first half I fear if they go to the WC

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat Aug 05, 2023 9:05 pm

Still think that Borthwick knows who he wants. 1 or 2 decisions to be made before Monday as he said. I'm going to flip it, I'm being too negative. There was a clear pattern of play from England and that's what you need ahead of a world cup. The players next week will be better set to enact the plan.

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Post by Heaf Sat Aug 05, 2023 9:06 pm

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:
mountain man wrote:I thought that was a pretty average Welsh team to be honest, just England second half made them look like prime NZ.

Yeah, not sure I’d call it a strong Wales team either. Loads of unknowns and players with questions marks over them, more than anything. New props with zero international experience. Probably 2nd and 3rd choice hookers. New look back line. A number of debutants. A young lock with little experience. A 10 with constant question marks over his defence (but decent in attack for club). Brand new combos in various places, e.g. back row. I think we also played a lot of the 2nd half with a back in the forwards as we brought on Grady I think for a forward (hence George North playing flanker in the scrums).

Not reading too much into it though. Just a World Cup warm up game. England will come good for the WC.

Thanks for trying to make us feel better, but I don't buy it ....

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Post by TJ Sat Aug 05, 2023 9:06 pm

Steward?  Played well?  He is too slow to be an international fullback.  LRZ is proper quick but he took about 5 m out of steward in 15m

yes he can catch a ball but an international FB needs to be able to do more than that

Just my opinion.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat Aug 05, 2023 9:09 pm

TJ wrote:Steward?  Played well?  He is too slow to be an international fullback.  LRZ is proper quick but he took about 5 m out of steward in 15m

yes he can catch a ball but an international FB needs to be able to do more than that

Just my opinion.

It's just that some opinions are wrong.

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Post by Geordie Sat Aug 05, 2023 9:10 pm

TJ wrote:Steward?  Played well?  He is too slow to be an international fullback.  LRZ is proper quick but he took about 5 m out of steward in 15m

yes he can catch a ball but an international FB needs to be able to do more than that

Just my opinion.

Well next season he will have some competition from Arundell (if he can stay fit) and Carpenter, if he continues his performances.

But for the moment...he's our starting 15 at the world Cup.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat Aug 05, 2023 9:17 pm

Presumably we see a fair few changes next week. Think it will probably be

Marler George sinckler
Itoje Hill
Lawes Willis
Vunipola (if fit dombrandt if not)
Youngs Ford may farrell tuilagi Watson Steward.

He may start farrell at 10 and go tuilagi Lawrence.

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Post by mountain man Sat Aug 05, 2023 9:19 pm

Steward stays, think how worse Eng would be if no-one could catch a ball!
Joe C bad but then again half the team were dropping balls, losing possession etc. Grim.

Only positive is it can only get better .....surely?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat Aug 05, 2023 9:29 pm

mountain man wrote:Steward stays, think how worse Eng would be if no-one could catch a ball!
Joe C bad but then again half the team were dropping balls, losing possession etc. Grim.

Only positive is it can only get better .....surely?

Yeah the only back 3 player to consistently perform at a high standard. Shame being that if you have someone that safe and obviously massively young and still developing you can afford (or it shoud really demand) playing attacking out and out wings with him. Clearly the top 2 come in next week (although both not what they were) but the WC back ups today didn't really show anything. A real maverick move would be to admit the mistake and call up the likes of h-c and radwan but sadly what we got today was what the coaches want to see.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat Aug 05, 2023 9:31 pm

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:
mountain man wrote:I thought that was a pretty average Welsh team to be honest, just England second half made them look like prime NZ.

Yeah, not sure I’d call it a strong Wales team either. Loads of unknowns and players with questions marks over them, more than anything. New props with zero international experience. Probably 2nd and 3rd choice hookers. New look back line. A number of debutants. A young lock with little experience. A 10 with constant question marks over his defence (but decent in attack for club). Brand new combos in various places, e.g. back row. I think we also played a lot of the 2nd half with a back in the forwards as we brought on Grady I think for a forward (hence George North playing flanker in the scrums).

Not reading too much into it though. Just a World Cup warm up game. England will come good for the WC.

The 10 is the same 10 who's been talked about as a future international since he was starting for the Welsh under 20s at 18. Bigger is getting on and both Biggar and Anscombe pick up knocks like a prop picks up pies. He's been a stand out for the stuttering regions made sense to give him a try and against a substantial midfield which contained one of Wales most capped players. His club mate at 9 who's himself very experienced. Back three were in the 6N squad with LRZ a certain starter and a centurion at fullback. Ideal stuff for a young 10.

Props were experimental. Rowlands has been a consistent pick since he switched allegiances and Jenkins is another fas tracked player. Christ and Morgan also regular selections and quite clearly the future for Wales. The 8 has had plenty of international exposure.

There will definitely be some stronger players to come in for Wales but most of not all of the starting team will be on the plane to France.

England should have done much better in the first half with Wales on the ropes but Wales grew into that game well and they deserve some credit for their showing in the second half. Second try was a touch fortunate with the way the ball bounced from the wild swing of the LRZ boot but the grubber through was nice. First Welsh try was a very clever switch move from Costelow showing exactly the type of rugby brain that's been hyped for years. Incidentally on his senior debut he made a try saving tackle so doubts over his defence was probably mainly due to his size and comparison to bigger contemporaries.

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Post by king_carlos Sat Aug 05, 2023 9:32 pm

1.Genge, Marler, Mako
2.George, Walker, Blamire
3.Sinckler, Stuart, Cole
4.Itoje, Martin
5.Chessum, Ribbans
6.Lawes, J Willis
7.Curry, Pearson
8.Vunipola, Ludlam

9.JvP, Youngs, Care
10.Ford, Smith

11.Arundell, Daly
12.Farrell, Tuilagi
13.Lawrence, Slade
14.Watson, Marchant
15.Steward

That would be my 33-man squad from the remaining players.

I can't see Malins missing out though. I've picked 19 forwards and 14 backs there. 18-15 seems a more likely split. So the extra back would presumably be at the expense of a flanker or a second row with Lawes able to cover lock.

I thought Martin had a solid game but at this stage isn't really a primary lineout option at interantional level. He's a third jumper currently against strong counter jumpers. That would necessitate Lawes at 6 to get Martin in the row with Itoje. As such I'd probably leave Martin out from those forwards if I was fitting an extra back into that squad at the expense of a forward.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat Aug 05, 2023 9:32 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Presumably we see a fair few changes next week. Think it will probably be

Marler George sinckler
Itoje Hill
Lawes Willis
Vunipola (if fit dombrandt if not)
Youngs Ford may farrell tuilagi Watson Steward.

He may start farrell at 10 and go tuilagi Lawrence.

I'd hope Hill will be released from the squad by next week's game.

To much to hope we get Ford/Manu/Lawrence isn't it.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat Aug 05, 2023 9:35 pm

king_carlos wrote:1.Genge, Marler, Mako
2.George, Walker, Blamire
3.Sinckler, Stuart, Cole
4.Itoje, Martin
5.Chessum, Ribbans
6.Lawes, J Willis
7.Curry, Pearson
8.Vunipola, Ludlam

9.JvP, Youngs, Care
10.Ford, Smith

11.Arundell, Daly
12.Farrell, Tuilagi
13.Lawrence, Slade
14.Watson, Marchant
15.Steward

That would be my 33-man squad from the remaining players.

I can't see Malins missing out though. I've picked 19 forwards and 14 backs there. 18-15 seems a more likely split. So the extra back would presumably be at the expense of a flanker or a second row with Lawes able to cover lock.

I thought Martin had a solid game but at this stage isn't really a primary lineout option at interantional level. He's a third jumper currently against strong counter jumpers. That would necessitate Lawes at 6 to get Martin in the row with Itoje. As such I'd probably leave Martin out from those forwards if I was fitting an extra back into that squad at the expense of a forward.

Vunipola being released back to Saracens suggest he's not expected to be back for in time I'd say.

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Post by mountain man Sat Aug 05, 2023 9:35 pm

Well I've wanted Radwan in but probably never happen.
What is disappointing is pack first 30 mins looked ok but then disintegrated, like really bad. Scrum and line out went down toilet so if Eng can't compete with Wales there then against likes of SA Argentina Ireland France etc they will get slaughtered.
I know changes will or should make a difference but can't say my optimism is increasing.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat Aug 05, 2023 9:37 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Presumably we see a fair few changes next week. Think it will probably be

Marler George sinckler
Itoje Hill
Lawes Willis
Vunipola (if fit dombrandt if not)
Youngs Ford may farrell tuilagi Watson Steward.

He may start farrell at 10 and go tuilagi Lawrence.

I'd hope Hill will be released from the squad by next week's game.

To much to hope we get Ford/Manu/Lawrence isn't it.

Oh there's plenty of changes I'd want. This is just the prediction. Thought today showed that Martin isn't quick an international lock as yet. Would have been nice to see him at 6 for a while. Ford really showed nothing when he came on but I don't think I'd expect to see him in the team without farell in the team. If we go with Tuialgi Lawrence it will be with Farrell at 10.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat Aug 05, 2023 9:38 pm

[quote="king_carlos]
I thought Martin had a solid game but at this stage isn't really a primary lineout option at interantional level. He's a third jumper currently against strong counter jumpers. That would necessitate Lawes at 6 to get Martin in the row with Itoje. As such I'd probably leave Martin out from those forwards if I was fitting an extra back into that squad at the expense of a forward.[/quote]

I think he'd be fine as a second jumper, being the main jumper was probably to big an ask though he did a solid job there. Solid being the best way to describe him today. He was industrious, (knock on aside) didn't make much in the way of errors, led the team in number of carries and number of tackles (joint with Pearson). He will have wanted to make some bigger impacts today.

Given Chessum's only just back from injury, Hill looks set to be dropped and Lawes doesn't really play lock anymore I suspect he'll go.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat Aug 05, 2023 9:42 pm

mountain man wrote:Well I've wanted Radwan in but probably never happen.
What is disappointing is pack first 30 mins looked ok but then disintegrated, like really bad. Scrum and line out went down toilet so if Eng can't compete with Wales there then against likes of SA Argentina Ireland France etc they will get slaughtered.
I know changes will or should make a difference but can't say my optimism is increasing.

Was sat watching the France Scotland game and their wingers create chances and score tries thinking they'd never get a game for England.

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Post by Mr Bounce Sat Aug 05, 2023 9:55 pm

It's the x factor that this team is sorely lacking. The scrum halves we have are simply too slow.
Malins is a talented rugby player but he isn't a winger. Big Joe can't catch and is a one trick pony. Where are the guys with massive pace? The game changers? It's so prescribed and dull.

I wouldn't mind so much if we were winning, but, no disrespect to Wales, this wasn't a strong side, yet they outscored us 3 tries* to 0 with ease. We only looked like scoring what once? We barely threatened.

The English game plan does not work. Too much kicking, too many "meh" players. 4 more years of this? I hope not.

But who are the alternatives?

*I thought Rees Zammit's was good

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Post by lostinwales Sat Aug 05, 2023 10:00 pm

Joe C - the fumbles in catching were very public. Running the ball back he was fine, but didn't get much out of the Welsh defense. I think it is partially down to the way he was used, which was pretty dumb. I'd put him in the 'meh' category to be honest.

Care and Smith were OK 1st half, but Care was terrible after the break and Smith seemed to go missing altogether up to the point I decided to tear myself away for some very important potato peeling.

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Post by mountain man Sat Aug 05, 2023 10:01 pm

Yep said it all along.
Need X factor wings like a Radwan or Arundell.
Care was far too slow and JvP not much better. On the bright side got Young's to come back next week. Jesus.

Wales pretty average but England were diabolical.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat Aug 05, 2023 10:15 pm

I thought the England lineout varied between poor and mediocre.  Most of that is on the lineout throws which is a problem given George can't go a full 80 any more.  But England were not great defending the Welsh lineouts either.   

In the second row Martin did well cleaning up a few messes with some tough carries, but really did nothing in attack.  This must have been the strategy because Ribbans had fewer carries but did the same garbage cleanup.     

I still don't understand why Jonny Hill is near the squad.  A nice game cheque for not much.

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Post by mountain man Sat Aug 05, 2023 10:24 pm

Don't think any played themselves into squad but several played themselves out.

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Post by TJ Sat Aug 05, 2023 10:34 pm

Ok guys - this is not a troll - its a serious question:

What is going on with Marcus smith? I haven't seen any club games he plays in but in the internationals particularly today I just do not see this creativity he is supposed to have. I thought the idea of playing Care was ( at kleast partly) that they are used to playing together an thus would be easier for Smith. YOu guys probably remember that I don't rate Farrell particularly ( but I am not blind to his qualities) but he would have done everything Smith did today with ease and with his warrier spirit and decent defense.

Is it the tactics? Poor ball so he is living off scraps? Is he still struggling with the step up to internationals? Is he just overhyped in the press? I expect a ten to be bossing the game - Farrell does. I hope for a "creative" ten to make space for others like Russell does

Any clues to help me understand?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat Aug 05, 2023 10:34 pm

Looks like Woodward is the first guy who initially backed Borthwick to jump out of the line then. Daily Heil

'We must remember that this was only a World Cup warm-up. But it must also be said that in Cardiff on Saturday night, England were really poor.


Defeat by Wales at Principality Stadium was worse than a poor training run for Steve Borthwick. It was that bad.


There can be no doubt that this was one of the poorest games I’ve ever seen England play.
I thought England would win comfortably looking at the two sides but they were second best by a long way. Wales fully deserved to win and were impressive in the second half.

Borthwick will finalise his 33 players for the World Cup in France on Sunday and after watching his second string in the Welsh capital, I think he can draw a line through many of the names he was considering. The sight of Joe Cokanasiga with his shirt ripped summed up England’s performance.

It was ragged, disjointed, lacking accuracy and on the whole, well below par. There were errors everywhere.

Ahead of this game, I spoke about Ellis Genge and Freddie Steward being the only two World Cup certainties of the team which started in Cardiff.

Of the other 13 – and even the players on the bench – not a single player put their hand up to be in Borthwick’s starting XV. That must be a huge concern to Borthwick as head coach.

The biggest disappointment from an English perspective was the set-piece. For all the team’s recent struggles across the board, England’s scrum and line-out are normally very good.

But in Cardiff, they were nowhere near the standard required to win international matches. In Test rugby, the set-piece is everything and England weren’t at the races.

I’m sure many will say this was England’s second team and that is all well and good.

But this performance comes on the back of a disappointing Six Nations and sets out a poor stall for the World Cup.

The doubts over whether the team can succeed in France will now magnify and grow significantly.

England now have no choice other than to pick their best team for the reverse fixture with Wales at Twickenham on Saturday. They have to turn up for that game.

The Cardiff clash showed that there are serious doubts over the ability of England’s back-up players to succeed in Test rugby.


I talked before the game about the desire to see a coherent style of play from Borthwick’s side.

While the fact this was a first England game in a long time meant there were always going to be teething problems and the performance was never going to be perfect, this was so disappointing. In the first minute of the game, Danny Care slowed the ball down. This is not a personal attack on Care, but why is that the team approach?

Particularly in a warm-up match.

England did OK in the first half, but they kicked three penalties through Marcus Smith.

Where was the ambition to go for a try?

I’d have liked to have seen that adventurous approach, particularly when the performance was more important than the result. In the end, England produced a poor display and didn’t win either. It must not be forgotten they failed to score in the second half and fell away badly.

Borthwick must be gutted. England need to put things right immediately.

Owen Farrell should be back at No 10 for the second game with Wales and the matches to come with Ireland and Fiji. England need to get their ducks in a row and quickly.'

I await Stephen Jones write up. I honestly wasn't expecting his backers to fall quite so quickly.


Last edited by No 7&1/2 on Sat Aug 05, 2023 10:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat Aug 05, 2023 10:36 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:
The English game plan does not work. Too much kicking, too many "meh" players. 4 more years of this? I hope not.

Wales kicked more than we did, quite a bit more. Both their tries and their disallowed try came from kicking.

The concept of "to much kicking" is just not a factor in why we lost. Inability to hold onto the ball was what did for us, turning the ball over 23 times, which was 12 more times than Wales, is suicide in an international game. Losing a third of our lineouts. You can't be that error strewn and expect to win games.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat Aug 05, 2023 10:39 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Looks like Woodward is the first guy who initially backed Borthwick to jump out of the line then. Daily Heil

I await Stephen Jones write up. I honestly wasn't expecting his backers to fall quick so quickly.

Woodward believes the only good England head coach is Sir Clive Woodward.

Stephen Jones believes any England loss is a travesty. His opinions are only balanced because he has a chip on both shoulders.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat Aug 05, 2023 10:40 pm

TJ wrote:Ok guys - this is not a troll - its a serious question:

What is going on with Marcus smith?  I haven't seen any club games he plays in but in the internationals particularly today I just do not see this creativity he is supposed to have. I thought the idea of playing Care was ( at kleast partly) that they are used to playing together an thus would be easier for Smith.  YOu guys probably remember that I don't rate Farrell  particularly ( but I am not blind to his qualities) but he would have done everything Smith did today with ease and with his warrier spirit and decent defense.

Is it the tactics?  Poor ball so he is living off scraps?  Is he still struggling with the step up to internationals?  Is he just overhyped in the press? I expect a ten to be bossing the game - Farrell does.  I hope for a "creative" ten to make space for others like Russell does

Any clues to help me understand?

I'm intrigued. Where do you feel he played badly?thought he played the tactics pretty well though it looked early doors in the second half that both he and Care were told tp kick more. Where do you think Ford improved things when he came on?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat Aug 05, 2023 10:43 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Looks like Woodward is the first guy who initially backed Borthwick to jump out of the line then. Daily Heil

I await Stephen Jones write up. I honestly wasn't expecting his backers to fall quick so quickly.

Woodward believes the only good England head coach is Sir Clive Woodward.

Stephen Jones believes any England loss is a travesty. His opinions are only balanced because he has a chip on both shoulders.

Think he backed Steve and he likes to be right too which is why I'm slightly surprised he's gone this way at this time.

I do think both are idiots like! Been looking at the bottom of the Internet too in the comments. Very very critical after that performance.

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Post by TJ Sat Aug 05, 2023 10:45 pm

I don't think Ford did much either. I just didn't see Smith put anyone into space and do nothing but simple short passes. NO committing defenders, no offloads, no trickery no runarounds and he didn't actually get much ball

What i am saying is he did nothing that in attack that Farrell would not / could not have done. where is the much talked about creativity? am I just spoiled by Russell?

Are you saying he is constrained by the tactics?

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Post by mountain man Sat Aug 05, 2023 10:47 pm

I'd say Woodward's assessment of match pretty spot on though.
Nothing there I disagree with to be honest.
England were dreadful.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat Aug 05, 2023 10:49 pm

TJ wrote:I don't think Ford did much either.  I just didn't see Smith put anyone into space and do nothing but simple short passes.  NO committing defenders, no offloads, no trickery no runarounds and he didn't actually get much ball

What i am  saying is he did nothing that in attack that Farrell would not / could not have done.  where is the much talked about creativity?  am I just spoiled by Russell?

Are you saying he is constrained by the tactics?

No. I'm just asking how you felt he didn't produce in terms of the tactics. If Rusell was among in this team I'd expect him to play to the same tactics wouldn't you? So to review his game what did he do badly in terms of the game plan rather than why he didn't play a different way. The discussion of whether another fly half is more suited to that game an is of course valid but don't see particularly what he did wrong today.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat Aug 05, 2023 10:54 pm

mountain man wrote:I'd say Woodward's assessment of match pretty spot on though.
Nothing there I disagree with to be honest.
England were dreadful.

Yup. I do agree in part with Sam's assessment though in terms of what he says is pretty much all about him. While I am surprised he's going in on Borthwick quite so hard so quickly I think it is probably setting up a coming list of articles saying again that the rfu need a rugby person at the top who the coach answers to and is challenged by. And that person should be.....

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Post by TJ Sat Aug 05, 2023 10:55 pm

Fair enough. So I didn't see the creativity because he was constrained by the tactics?

I didn't say he did anything wrong - what I am saying is I didn't see this creativity he is supposed to have.


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Post by mountain man Sat Aug 05, 2023 10:58 pm

Woodward does of course think he's the best but ignoring that he in this case is correct about match.

As for Smith, I thought he was ok first half. No complaints.
Second half was a shower of Poopie from all bar Steward Ludlum Marchant. Smith no worse than rest of team
Still makes RWC squad I'd say.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat Aug 05, 2023 11:00 pm

TJ wrote:Fair enough.  So I didn't see the creativity because he was constrained by the tactics?  

I didn't say he did anything wrong - what I am saying is I didn't see this creativity he is supposed to have.


Well there were 2 instances where he did get hands on the ball in the first half which were pretty nice and ended in the hands of our wingers...so in those cases I guess you chose not to see.

But again what are you expecting to see from him if he's playing to a set of tactics which are quite prescriptive? Can I ask why in the Scotland game that Russell didn't kick the ball more deep and to the corners more? I understand that wasn't the tactics that Townsend set but I'm wondering now why Russell wasn't doing just that consistently though the game?

That's clearly an exaggerated point but can you see the logic.

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