England 2023 - Post 6N and beyond - Prep for WC

First topic message reminder :

Continued.....

mountain man wrote:Woodward does of course think he's the best but ignoring that he in this case is correct about match.

As for Smith, I thought he was ok first half. No complaints.
Second half was a shower of Poopie from all bar Steward Ludlum Marchant. Smith no worse than rest of team
Still makes RWC squad I'd say.

I think there's literally no change in the squad based on this game. Thought the only one was of blamire played worse than Dan, it didn't happen and he still goes as 3rd choice hooker.

Ok - you gave me an explanation. Ta chaps. Its a prescriptive set of tactics that led to the way he played. Better off with Farrell then if England are going to play that way.

TJ wrote:Ok - you gave me an explanation.  Ta chaps.  Its a prescriptive set of tactics that led to the way he played.  Better off with Farrell then if England are going to play that way.

Why in your opinion? Do you feel that Smith played the tactics poorly today?

Would you be looking to play Farrell with Porter and Marchant? Same wingers?

I didn't say that! I said I did not see the creativity that is much heralded in the press and I was looking for an explanation. You gave me that explanation - that the tactics were such that he could not. He didn't play badly.

Farrell could have done everything that Smith did today - with the added bonus of his defense and his warrier mentality.

TJ wrote:I didn't say that!  I said I did not see the creativity that is much heralded in the press and I was looking for an explanation.  You gave me that explanation - that the tactics were such that he could not.  He didn't play badly.

Farrell could have done everything that Smith did today - with the added bonus of his defense and his warrier mentality.

Thought you'd been critical of Farrells defence previously? Again didn't think I'd seen any lapses in Smiths defence today, maybe I missed them. But fair enough if its just that others may suit the game plan better and you've come round to Farrell being a great player fair enough.

Ps I was right about the Scotland knock on being before any pen.

TJ wrote:Ok guys - this is not a troll - its a serious question:

What is going on with Marcus smith?  I haven't seen any club games he plays in but in the internationals particularly today I just do not see this creativity he is supposed to have. I thought the idea of playing Care was ( at kleast partly) that they are used to playing together an thus would be easier for Smith.  YOu guys probably remember that I don't rate Farrell  particularly ( but I am not blind to his qualities) but he would have done everything Smith did today with ease and with his warrier spirit and decent defense.

Is it the tactics?  Poor ball so he is living off scraps?  Is he still struggling with the step up to internationals?  Is he just overhyped in the press? I expect a ten to be bossing the game - Farrell does.  I hope for a "creative" ten to make space for others like Russell does

Any clues to help me understand?

Well maybe you should watch at least some highlights Ns see his creativity. Then you'll wonder whats going on that he can't replicate it at this level...or is it the England teams issue

No 7&1/2 wrote:

TJ wrote:Fair enough.  So I didn't see the creativity because he was constrained by the tactics?  

I didn't say he did anything wrong - what I am saying is I didn't see this creativity he is supposed to have.

Well there were 2 instances where he did get hands on the ball in the first half which were pretty nice and ended in the hands of our wingers...so in those cases I guess you chose not to see.

But again what are you expecting to see from him if he's playing to a set of tactics which are quite prescriptive? Can I ask why in the Scotland game that Russell didn't kick the ball more deep and to the corners more? I understand that wasn't the tactics that Townsend set but I'm wondering now why Russell wasn't doing just that consistently though the game?

That's clearly an exaggerated point but can you see the logic.

Yes, there were at least two successful Smith moves. I think one instance was Big Joe (and he actually held on to the ball), and the other was Dombrandt (I think), A couple of other times there was a gap but Porter, as the 12, needed to be moving towards it. Instead he wasn't there and Smith got hit. But to your point, Smith was hoisting garryowens all game long, and I can promise you that was not by choice, which was very frustrating to watch (as it must have been for Smith to have to do).

king_carlos wrote:I like Rio Dyer. There's something very likable about sportsman than just run like someone being chased by a Lion. Pure energy.

I love him obviously, as he’s a dragon. But he was pretty poor today. Josh Adams is in pole position now, as he was probably anyway.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:.

No attack at ALL.

There was a lot of attack in the first half. Quite frankly we battered them in the first half. We turned over the ball 23 times though. You can't do that and win a test match, particularly away from home. That was a pretty strong Welsh team.

It wasn’t really a strong Welsh team. Just as much experimental. New props, for a start. There aren’t many players we had out today, that are first choice more than England did.

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:

mountain man wrote:I thought that was a pretty average Welsh team to be honest, just England second half made them look like prime NZ.

Yeah, not sure I’d call it a strong Wales team either. Loads of unknowns and players with questions marks over them, more than anything. New props with zero international experience. Probably 2nd and 3rd choice hookers. New look back line. A number of debutants. A young lock with little experience. A 10 with constant question marks over his defence (but decent in attack for club). Brand new combos in various places, e.g. back row. I think we also played a lot of the 2nd half with a back in the forwards as we brought on Grady I think for a forward (hence George North playing flanker in the scrums).

Not reading too much into it though. Just a World Cup warm up game. England will come good for the WC.

Bingo.

England will win next week. Thought wales did okay for four entries into the 22, or so it seemed. Wales in theory will have a better pair of props too and then have players like Reffell who have to prove a point over Morgan etc.

Wales were very ponderous at the base of the rucks. Need to speed up when things are on.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Presumably we see a fair few changes next week. Think it will probably be

Marler George sinckler
Itoje Hill
Lawes Willis
Vunipola (if fit dombrandt if not)
Youngs Ford may farrell tuilagi Watson Steward.

He may start farrell at 10 and go tuilagi Lawrence.

I'd hope Hill will be released from the squad by next week's game.

To much to hope we get Ford/Manu/Lawrence isn't it.

I was buzzing when Hill came on today. He’s garbage internationally. Just in a steady Exeter pack and built a reputation from there. Weak as pee really. Sure he’ll look good next week at HQ mind, but really you must have better locks than him.

Phew. Feel a bit better now I've Borthwicks comments. Every one of these experiences is a positive for the world cup.
Bbc.
'The positive is how many entries we got into the opposition 22 and into their scoring zone
I thought in the first half we created a lot of opportunities but turned over too much ball in the opposition 22.
You can't do that in Test rugby, so immediately there are some areas for improvement.'

Refreshing to see he can see the problems we had but that the kicking and slow driving off the forwards worked to plan. I have missed this tkind of straight talking no big media lines from a coach. Reminds me of a captain we had all those years ago after a game in Italy.

The only thing missing tbf is that captains win ratio of 45% looks a little put off reach as we wallow on 33% at the moment. Can't wait to next week now, excited to see team focus a bit more structure and slowing the ball down a little. Then Ireland away, always looks very green and nice the grass there. A huge chance to see history made vs Fiji as well. All set for the WC.

What are peoples thoughts on the rest of the coaching team? Defence, scrum, fitness all where we need it to be for the WC?

Having calmed down a bit and watched the first half...ah.

I think SB will already have known his squad..bar one or two and yesterday will have confirmed it.

A few positions really concern me.
Wing stands out....we're really inn trouble there.

Hooker...i rate Blamire but at this level he seems to just plod about. Theo Dan has that urgency and dynamism but a not ready yet. But I'd probably take him anyway give him the experience and he'll learn so much.

Can you take him after the set piece performance? Would seem to go against 2 of the things Horthwick is looking for ie experience and set piece domination.1

Despite his line out woes I'd still stick with Dan for now. Certainly give him more time in warm ups.

Hill should have gone long ago.
Porter gone.
Joe C gone.
Malins gone.
Sinckler gone.

Seeing as he's taking 3 9s looks like Care and JvP and Youngs be in squad but on that showing Care/JvP shouldn't be. We know how "good" Youngs is.

Smith was OK first half, he gets a lot of stick but don't think Eng lost due to him. By time Ford came on things had started to go rapidly downhill. Assume Farrell back next week so Ford bench again.

Ribbans was good enough, not sure Martin did enough to keep.
Pearson, again OKish but didn't shine. Got smashed back by Morgan so that didn't help his cause.
Dombrandt not a disaster a la France game but not great. Didn't see enough of Willis to know.

What will happen is Eng will probably change 6/8 players for next week and win but I don't think it papers over massive cracks now.

mountain man wrote:Despite his line out woes I'd still stick with Dan for now. Certainly give him more time in warm ups.

Hill should have gone long ago.
Porter gone.
Joe C gone.
Malins gone.
Sinckler gone.

Seeing as he's taking 3 9s looks like Care and JvP and Youngs be in squad but on that showing Care/JvP shouldn't be. We know how "good" Youngs is.

Smith was OK first half, he gets a lot of stick but don't think Eng lost due to him. By time Ford came on things had started to go rapidly downhill. Assume Farrell back next week so Ford bench again.

Ribbans was good enough, not sure Martin did enough to keep.
Pearson, again OKish but didn't shine. Got smashed back by Morgan so that didn't help his cause.
Dombrandt not a disaster a la France game but not great. Didn't see enough of Willis to know.

What will happen is Eng will probably change 6/8 players for next week and win but I don't think it papers over massive cracks now.

Squad is announced tomorrow so you would have Dan? What if George picks up a slight injury and can't play vs argentina? Happy to have Dan as back up?

Well it's Dan or Blamire as back up isn't it. Blamire OK but that's it. I'm saying give him more time in warm up game. I think Blamire/George be in squad tomorrow but I'd have Dan as injury back up hence game time pre WC.
The pack first 35 mins were fine, not great but good enough. After that it was a total shambles. Like REALLY bad.
Not sure many forwards yesterday played themselves in, do you?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can you take him after the set piece performance? Would seem to go against 2 of the things Horthwick is looking for ie experience and set piece domination.1

Well it's one of Blamire or Theo....you take the young future as the 3rd choice. Or you call up someone who's not been in the camp at all.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:Despite his line out woes I'd still stick with Dan for now. Certainly give him more time in warm ups.

Hill should have gone long ago.
Porter gone.
Joe C gone.
Malins gone.
Sinckler gone.

Seeing as he's taking 3 9s looks like Care and JvP and Youngs be in squad but on that showing Care/JvP shouldn't be. We know how "good" Youngs is.

Smith was OK first half, he gets a lot of stick but don't think Eng lost due to him. By time Ford came on things had started to go rapidly downhill. Assume Farrell back next week so Ford bench again.

Ribbans was good enough, not sure Martin did enough to keep.
Pearson, again OKish but didn't shine. Got smashed back by Morgan so that didn't help his cause.
Dombrandt not a disaster a la France game but not great. Didn't see enough of Willis to know.

What will happen is Eng will probably change 6/8 players for next week and win but I don't think it papers over massive cracks now.

Squad is announced tomorrow so you would have Dan? What if George picks up a slight injury and can't play vs argentina? Happy to have Dan as back up?

As you've said Walker is now 2nd choice...

Dombrandt won't go ...he's fluffed his chance.
And Pearson got thumped back but it happens to everyone at some stage. He'll learn form that and it won't happen again.

Yeah Blamire for me easily.

Don't think yesterday will have much bearing on the coaches minds tbh. They made a few tweaks at half time to ensure we were kicking more and Borthwick has indicated he's happy with how the game went. Presumably they'll be pleased with how the second choice guys implemented their vision. So can't see anyone from outside the squad getting a look in.
I certainly can't see them taking guys to develop at the WC.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:Despite his line out woes I'd still stick with Dan for now. Certainly give him more time in warm ups.

Hill should have gone long ago.
Porter gone.
Joe C gone.
Malins gone.
Sinckler gone.

Seeing as he's taking 3 9s looks like Care and JvP and Youngs be in squad but on that showing Care/JvP shouldn't be. We know how "good" Youngs is.

Smith was OK first half, he gets a lot of stick but don't think Eng lost due to him. By time Ford came on things had started to go rapidly downhill. Assume Farrell back next week so Ford bench again.

Ribbans was good enough, not sure Martin did enough to keep.
Pearson, again OKish but didn't shine. Got smashed back by Morgan so that didn't help his cause.
Dombrandt not a disaster a la France game but not great. Didn't see enough of Willis to know.

What will happen is Eng will probably change 6/8 players for next week and win but I don't think it papers over massive cracks now.

Squad is announced tomorrow so you would have Dan? What if George picks up a slight injury and can't play vs argentina? Happy to have Dan as back up?

As you've said Walker is now 2nd choice...

Yeah walker is second choice. Always has been. But would people be happy tp have Dan as backup vs argentina? I don't think his setpiece was Aby where near good enough.

Geordie wrote:Dombrandt won't go ...he's fluffed his chance.
And Pearson got thumped back but it happens to everyone at some stage. He'll learn form that and it won't happen again.

Dombrandt is on the plane for definite. Showed a couple of nice touches which will have got him told off at half time but we need an out and out 8 if Vunipola gets injured and Willis is too callow. Maybe in a couple of years when his game is polished off by mccall.

Well if Borthwick genuinely was happy with that then Eng are well and truly doomed. Can only hope it's brave face, putting a positive spin on it for media as otherwise that is incredible.

I mean i've seen quite a few over the years but yesterday was about as bad as it gets. Eng have been beaten by bigger margins but the nature of it against a frankly pretty average Wales was shocking.

As I said before, anyone who didn't play yesterday their stock has soared. Steward, Ludlum and Marchant exceptions.

By the way 7.5, as you know I've always said winning is everything and I stick by that.
However, after about 65mins even I was thinking even if somehow England turn it around and win it would still have been an awful showing.

To lose though and play that badly is the bottom rung.

Bar the score why would he be unhappy to be fair. Thought they players played to the approach he wanted pretty well. Some a bit keen in their carrying but you can definitely see the style he wants. I think it reinforces though that he'll want a big 6 be that Lawes or Martin who i think will be used there.

Too many of our players are not dynamic...they look like they're in mud. Malins and Dombrandt the stand outs.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:Dombrandt won't go ...he's fluffed his chance.
And Pearson got thumped back but it happens to everyone at some stage. He'll learn form that and it won't happen again.

Dombrandt is on the plane for definite. Showed a couple of nice touches which will have got him told off at half time but we need an out and out 8 if Vunipola gets injured and Willis is too callow. Maybe in a couple of years when his game is polished off by mccall.

Dombrant made 9 tackles but missed 3. 14m made from 5 carries with all of those metres coming from his solitary clean break where he over ran the ball and the ref missed the forward pass. Unlike the other Quins boys he didn't show up well and really should be heading back to his club. Considering how much we were dominating in that first half his lack of impact was really disappointing.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:Despite his line out woes I'd still stick with Dan for now. Certainly give him more time in warm ups.

Hill should have gone long ago.
Porter gone.
Joe C gone.
Malins gone.
Sinckler gone.

Seeing as he's taking 3 9s looks like Care and JvP and Youngs be in squad but on that showing Care/JvP shouldn't be. We know how "good" Youngs is.

Smith was OK first half, he gets a lot of stick but don't think Eng lost due to him. By time Ford came on things had started to go rapidly downhill. Assume Farrell back next week so Ford bench again.

Ribbans was good enough, not sure Martin did enough to keep.
Pearson, again OKish but didn't shine. Got smashed back by Morgan so that didn't help his cause.
Dombrandt not a disaster a la France game but not great. Didn't see enough of Willis to know.

What will happen is Eng will probably change 6/8 players for next week and win but I don't think it papers over massive cracks now.

Squad is announced tomorrow so you would have Dan? What if George picks up a slight injury and can't play vs argentina? Happy to have Dan as back up?

As you've said Walker is now 2nd choice...

Yeah walker is second choice. Always has been. But would people be happy tp have Dan as backup vs argentina?  I don't think his setpiece was Aby where near good enough.

Dan's lack of experience was glaringly obvious. Blamire didn't have a good game but the step down to Dan was telling.

Is it to late to recall Nic Dolly? He at least can be relied upon to throw the ball to his jumper.

Bar the score why would he be unhappy to be fair.

Because it was awful. Really bad. Basic errors, no urgency, no cohesion and no attempt at variation when the tactic of running straight into contact didn't work first 25 times.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:Dombrandt won't go ...he's fluffed his chance.
And Pearson got thumped back but it happens to everyone at some stage. He'll learn form that and it won't happen again.

Dombrandt is on the plane for definite. Showed a couple of nice touches which will have got him told off at half time but we need an out and out 8 if Vunipola gets injured and Willis is too callow. Maybe in a couple of years when his game is polished off by mccall.

Dombrant made 9 tackles but missed 3. 14m made from 5 carries with all of those metres coming from his solitary clean break where he over ran the ball and the ref missed the forward pass. Unlike the other Quins boys he didn't show up well and really should be heading back to his club. Considering how much we were dominating in that first half his lack of impact was really disappointing.

And yet he's still on the plane. I'm sure the coaches will be in his ear though reminding him not to get isolated by making a break.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:Despite his line out woes I'd still stick with Dan for now. Certainly give him more time in warm ups.

Hill should have gone long ago.
Porter gone.
Joe C gone.
Malins gone.
Sinckler gone.

Seeing as he's taking 3 9s looks like Care and JvP and Youngs be in squad but on that showing Care/JvP shouldn't be. We know how "good" Youngs is.

Smith was OK first half, he gets a lot of stick but don't think Eng lost due to him. By time Ford came on things had started to go rapidly downhill. Assume Farrell back next week so Ford bench again.

Ribbans was good enough, not sure Martin did enough to keep.
Pearson, again OKish but didn't shine. Got smashed back by Morgan so that didn't help his cause.
Dombrandt not a disaster a la France game but not great. Didn't see enough of Willis to know.

What will happen is Eng will probably change 6/8 players for next week and win but I don't think it papers over massive cracks now.

Squad is announced tomorrow so you would have Dan? What if George picks up a slight injury and can't play vs argentina? Happy to have Dan as back up?

As you've said Walker is now 2nd choice...

Yeah walker is second choice. Always has been. But would people be happy tp have Dan as backup vs argentina?  I don't think his setpiece was Aby where near good enough.

Dan's lack of experience was glaringly obvious. Blamire didn't have a good game but the step down to Dan was telling.

Is it to late to recall Nic Dolly? He at least can be relied upon to throw the ball to his jumper.

If he's fit it would help having more Leicester players available who know these coaches plans.

mountain man wrote:

Bar the score why would he be unhappy to be fair.

Because it was awful. Really bad. Basic errors, no urgency, no cohesion and no attempt at variation when the tactic of running straight into contact didn't work first 25 times.

Come off it mm. You could see for the first time in ages that we had a really clear plan of attack. Simplified yes but as Borthwick said it got us into the 22 consistently.

What so you are happy with yesterday(bar the score)?

Seriously?

mountain man wrote:What so you are happy with yesterday(bar the score)?

Seriously?

Well I'm ignoring the score, yes it could have been worse , but the style of play is there now which when you consider when Borthwick came in is admirable surely? Some coaches never get the buy in or things fall by the wayside but in what 6 games, he's managed to get us that defined look. He's can now concentrate on polishing the guys for the WC, and let's face it most won't need that polish. These are very experienced players who have played under him at England and some for Leicester so he'll know how to get the best out of them and I'm sure they'll love playing under him knowing what to expect.

Think the hard part in regards to the gruelling training and fitness regimes to get them to speed is out the way (doubt they'll get as injured in training as happened with Jones!) and you'll start to see more and more the players just enjoying themselves. You could see that yesterday in how they kept going until the end.

Think there'll be some pretty smug rfu officials right now knowing we've tied Borthwick up for 5 years. When you consider how inexperienced the vast majority of his coaches are as well its pretty exciting to think where we could be going. Let's just hope those guys aren't poached.

I'm not sure it could have been worse, that was dreadful. Several players by the end looking as if they'd given up.

This much improved scrum some on here have mentioned in past didn't make an appearance. If a new Welsh pack can get upper hand on Eng as game wears on then it doesn't bode well for RWC.

I thought yesterday was an unmitigated disaster by the end.

The players definitely didn't give up. You could still see them going with the plan until the last minute. Think you're being a bit unfair there. Scrum I'm sure was hindered by the pitch, Harrison helped Leicester get a renowned scrum across Europe, he'll get us renowned round the world.

Please tell me you are being sarcastic.

On those points absolutely not. There was no panic in the approach of the players at all either. I'd be worried if they had just tried chucking it around but you saw the steadying hand of Ford come which will have helped the newer guys. Did exactly what he needed to do. These are just warm-ups so it's about tinkering at this stage, making sure the players know their jobs and I think we saw from yesterday they did.

It's going to be iterative as well. The more the players play this the more that they'll trust that the system works.

Know their jobs? At times some looked like they'd never been passed a rugby ball!

I thought for you it was all about entertainment. So chucking it around might actually have worked as whatever plan they were playing to plainly didn't.

Maybe I need to watch match again if I can bear to but my over riding memory is it was a total shambles in 2nd half. First half OK at times although so many opportnites missed but 2nd half diabolical.

Surely 1 thing you can't accuse us of is not knowing what we were doing. The approach was consistent for the majority of the match. Maybe a bit guilty in the first half of over playing in the wrong areas but that improved. When you see the ideas translated to the pitch sometimes you just have to hold your hands up and say I got it wrong.

So you say players knew their jobs and the plan and they carried it out. Right?

But majority of that team yesterday won't or shouldn't be in RWC squad, also right?

So how exactly is that helping England as a team?

mountain man wrote:So you say players knew their jobs and the plan and they carried it out. Right?

But majority of that team yesterday won't or shouldn't be in RWC squad, also right?

So how exactly is that helping England as a team?

Not in the first team bar 2 but clearly having the depth and knowing the back ups can implement the same system can only be a benefit. You'd certainly expect that the guys next week are going to replicate that style of play and performance. I think we're going to see something very similar from now on, rather than adapting to players the players adapt. If the rfu are smart they will be trying to get each of our year groups playing exactly the same way too, make it seemless through all the teams.

OK, I'm convinced. You are taking the p*ss.

You don't think having an identity can help us? For years I've heard how difficult it is for players to have to adapt (why yesterday was so good seeing players play to the game plan so steictly) so having the same direct approach is only going to help the development path.

Another thing I'd say yesterday the clear approach to how we wanted to play and take the game to the Welsh. 3 points on offer, just take it consistently. We've some almighty man sausage ups when there's confused thinking on the pitch, think we've seen the last of that.

Identity is one thing but clueless play is another. If a limited Welsh team can stop England scoring just think how likes of Ire, Fra, SA, NZ will do.
Carrying into contact endlessly? That's THE plan?

Taking the game to the Welsh, hmm how did that pan out? Pretty awful I'd say.

No doubt RWC squad will have likes of Farrell, Itoje, George so I'd expect a better performance next week. Maybe even a win.

But if yesterday was the blueprint for RWC then might as well tear up plans right now. Take 3 points? That's not going to win many games and certainly not against better teams and there are plenty of those around.

That's what's worked consistently for Borthwick though. Sometimes the ball doesn't bounce your way. Another day we win comfortably but just because it doesn't happen in 1 match doesn't mean you move away. This is a system that brings results, come the world cup I'm sure it'll put us in a great place. But as others have said the 6 nations is where it'll really start to take off. He's had his hands tied with the limitation of bringing in players outside the existing squad in the 6 nations and here he's having to go with experience.

The 3 points thing was smart. You saw how a few lienouts went when he had to bring on Dan, no risk keep the scoreboard ticking.

I think the clock is ticking on a number of players who have just failed to step up....

Hill - He really struggles at this level.
Dombrandt - what exactly does he offer?
Care - How is Mitchell not in ahead of him I'll never know....
Smith - Look at him post WC as he's just not up to it currently, he's had way too many chances
Cokanasinga - Just hasn't got the skill set outside of being a big guy
Porter - Seriously, he's not International class

Blamire, Stewart and Martin perhaps live to fight another day due to the lack of depth in their positions.

So Sgt what's your assessment of yesterday? If you've read this page you know where I stand. Unmitigatedly awful.
7.5 is convinced it's the way to go somewhat surprisingly for one who touts entertainment over all else.

Any thoughts?