England's Summer of Cricket 2023, Featuring The Ashes

First topic message reminder :

If Pope can't play I'd probably prefer Foakes coming in, taking the gloves, myself. Maybe:

1.Crawley 2.Duckett 3.Brook 4.Root 5.Bairstow 6.Stokes (c) 7.Foakes (wk)

It means a rejigging of the order but gets better players in the XI than Lawrence at 3 IMO. Particularly when I'm not that convinced by Lawrence against higher pace. Given the 15 man squad that isn't on the cards though.

If Wood is genuinely fit I'd like his pace in the attack but would probably ere towards the seam heavy attack again if the 4  below are good to go:

8.Woakes 9.Broad 10.Wood 11.Tongue

If Wood isn't fit then:

8.Moeen 9.Woakes 10.Broad 11.Tongue

Which does have a lot of batting depth on the upside.

eirebilly_01 wrote:It would really shock me if Moeen is selected. He was out bowled by Root and does not look like a threat at all. Just hoping that one of the Aussies miss-time a tonk and he gets a wicket? That is not really a front line spin bowling threat to me.
As for his batting... I have no words to describe just how poor he is in that department.

Simply do not understand his selection and I am a huge fan.

It's a jobs for the boys selection, like with Crawley's continual inclusions. I also have little doubt that if Bairstow were struggling with the bat that his inclusion wouldn't be under threat.

Duty281 wrote:

eirebilly_01 wrote:It would really shock me if Moeen is selected. He was out bowled by Root and does not look like a threat at all. Just hoping that one of the Aussies miss-time a tonk and he gets a wicket? That is not really a front line spin bowling threat to me.
As for his batting... I have no words to describe just how poor he is in that department.

Simply do not understand his selection and I am a huge fan.

It's a jobs for the boys selection, like with Crawley's continual inclusions. I also have little doubt that if Bairstow were struggling with the bat that his inclusion wouldn't be under threat.

In fairness to Crawley , he hasn't been awful in these games - though I wouldn't have picked him myself. I don't think "jobs for the boys " is quite fair either : reckon they have adopted a policy of giving players a good opportunity to settle in and claim their place - rather than the kneejerk chopping and changing that often used to prevail.

Do agree this can sometimes morph into stubbornness though. Kind of "Just keep going until we are proved correct..."

Mind you , we could probably apply that label to some posters' repeated assertions

The leaked team is correct so everyone prepare for round 3 of MoennGate

Would rather have retained Tongue than Robinson honestly

VTR wrote:Agreed not that exciting, but I will caveat that we should be playing Windies and Sri Lanka regularly in Tests. We seem to have played India, Australia and New Zealand almost endlessly in the last 3 years!

Was going to post this - nice to see some other nations coming over and being given 3 match series. Would like to see Bangladesh over at some point soon too.

As for the selection chat...

"Jobs for boys" stuff always makes me chuckle. Nonsense.

I do think if they were rejigging the order with Pope out, they should have brought Foakes back in to 7 and moved Bairstow to 5 without the gloves. Moving Bairstow to 5, with the gloves, and hoping he refinds 2022 form with the bat...that is a lot to ask and a bit stupid for me. A bit muddled that thinking.

Fine with Wood in for Tongue. Need to rest and rotate those two through these final two test matches...it should be noted Tongue has a long injury history too. I'd expect they will each play one of the final two tests.

Woakes in for Jimmy and Robinson keeps his spot is fair enough. Think it was a straight choice between Jimmy/Robinson as to who missed out, and potentially would rather give Jimmy a go at his home ground (plus he has been worse than Robinson so far, even if Robinson's stats flatter a bit).

Any word on the Aussie team? Murphy to come in for Lyon...but are Hazlewood/Starc going to pull up ok?

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

VTR wrote:Agreed not that exciting, but I will caveat that we should be playing Windies and Sri Lanka regularly in Tests. We seem to have played India, Australia and New Zealand almost endlessly in the last 3 years!

Was going to post this - nice to see some other nations coming over and being given 3 match series. Would like to see Bangladesh over at some point soon too.

As for the selection chat...

"Jobs for boys" stuff always makes me chuckle. Nonsense.

I do think if they were rejigging the order with Pope out, they should have brought Foakes back in to 7 and moved Bairstow to 5 without the gloves. Moving Bairstow to 5, with the gloves, and hoping he refinds 2022 form with the bat...that is a lot to ask and a bit stupid for me. A bit muddled that thinking.

Fine with Wood in for Tongue. Need to rest and rotate those two through these final two test matches...it should be noted Tongue has a long injury history too. I'd expect they will each play one of the final two tests.

Woakes in for Jimmy and Robinson keeps his spot is fair enough. Think it was a straight choice between Jimmy/Robinson as to who missed out, and potentially would rather give Jimmy a go at his home ground (plus he has been worse than Robinson so far, even if Robinson's stats flatter a bit).

Any word on the Aussie team? Murphy to come in for Lyon...but are Hazlewood/Starc going to pull up ok?

I believe it's more between Hazlewood and Boland, Starc remains and Murphy in... according to an article I saw today.

Quick glance at the forecast suggests it might be dicey after the first two days (thankfully as I'm there Friday ), particularly Saturday and Monday. So might need the extra bowler

Yep, Moeen Ali in the team along with Woakes and Woods. Out go Pope, Jimmy and Tongue.

Tough on Tongue for me, thought he bowled pretty well last test.

Yeah, had a look at the forecast and it suggests a draw might be possible. Goodness! But with these weather forecasts it could easily clear up and be fine. Besides, not too much play is needed for a result!

The team is an absolute shocker, as expected. Personnel and balance all wrong.

Duckett - having a good series so far, but not a great one. Two fifties, no tons. Conversion has been an issue that has plagued him. Aussies like to target him with that cut shot.

Crawley - the epitome of jobs for the boys. Averaging under 30 on pristine batting surfaces, just one fifty so far. Why hasn't he been dropped? Will he ever be dropped?

Brook - frustrating. Loads of starts, but never a big innings. Continually gets out in stupid, T20 ways, when he's better than that. Now being asked to reconfigure entirely with a very real chance of facing the new ball.

Root - has only had one innings of note so far. When Australia came back from 0-2 to win 3-2 in 36/37, Bradman was very angry, and scored 270, 212 and 169 in the final three tests. Root needs the same if England are to have any chance.

Stokes - Can be bowl after quite a workout in the second test? His stupendous 155 can hopefully reignite England's cause.

Bairstow - I said before the series that if England were going to win they'd likely need Bairstow to reproduce 2022. A tough ask, so far he hasn't. One innings of 78 and three of 20 or fewer, plus his keeping is under scrutiny, which can't be aiding his batting.

Moeen - Yeah, we all know what a catastrophe this is. Even if England want to mess up the balance of the side like this, why not go for Dawson or Rehan Ahmed, both superior batsman and bowlers to Moeen? Madness.

Woakes - Thank goodness he's back with a point to prove.

Broad - Probably England's best overall bowler this series, but I'm concerned over his fitness levels as he's got through 92 overs in the series.

Wood - Nice to see him back, but must be remembered he averages over 40 with the ball in England. On these wickets, however, his pace can be a valuable asset and a point of difference. Concerned about him getting through the test as he hasn't played long-form cricket this year.

Robinson - Very concerned over his fitness levels. He looked knackered at Lord's, has bowled 92 overs this series, has very flattering figures, and is now being asked to go again with little rest? Concerning. If Tongue can't play, fine, but that doesn't mean Robinson has to.

So, my overall feeling is concerned. I'm concerned about the balance which means Moeen comes in at 5 down. I'm concerned about the form of many of England's top order. I'm concerned about how many of England's bowling attack are close to breaking down.  I'm concerned about the form of the Australian team, particularly Cummins and Starc. I'm concerned about another flat pitch. And I'm concerned that England are overdue for their sub-150 innings shocker.

Echo you there Duty.

This is a very poor selection for me. I would certainly have had Tongue in ahead of Robinson (not that Robinson has been particularly bad but feel Tongue is better right now).

Ali, well we knew this was going to happen from the start of the series and i suspect that he will add very little to nothing again. This really annoys me as I am such a big fan of Moeen that seeing him selected like this on a hiding to nothing is sad.

Its just a nonsensical unbalanced selection for me.

That is a horrendous team; the main weakness has been the batting so the logical thing to do is weaken it further.

Seems like a team you pick when you don’t believe 4 or even all 5 of your bowlers are 100% fit or can be trusted to play a Test at full intensity without breaking down.

Kinda? Suspect workloads are going have to be managed regardless. I guess it was Robinson or Jimmy and Tongue was in at Lord's because Wood couldn't play.

Not sure I can really say the main weakness has been the batting. Bowling really hasn't been better, even if on par. At 2-0 and draws off the table, gonna have to take 20 wickets in each game and we haven't looked particularly likely to roll Australia for low totals, even in optimal conditions or late game pitches. Not sure Mo adds a lot is probably my main gripe, particularly if he doesn't last a full game again

OK loaded up with bowlers. But Woakes can really bat , as (allegedly) can Moeen

In fact they have Test Century Makers down to 9 !

Hope they can do the business with the ball.

JDizzle wrote:Seems like a team you pick when you don’t believe 4 or even all 5 of your bowlers are 100% fit or can be trusted to play a Test at full intensity without breaking down.

Does seem to be the case. Stokes got through a lot of overs, relatively speaking, in the last test. Broad + Robinson have bowled two full days worth of overs between them in this series already; Broad no spring chicken and Robinson with infamous fitness issues. And Wood, no long-form cricket since December, not even a county game to test his durability. Even Woakes hasn't played a test in over a year.

Of course part of this depth problem is down to England's notorious injury problems, but it's also partially because of Australia applying the grind of test cricket and wearing England's bowlers down. Something England, with Bazball, don't do in return.

I mean , I get the doubts over this selection. But honestly who could they pick instead with any sort of guarantee of success ?

Tongue could have stayed in place of Robinson maybe. Lawrence could have kept the batting order essentially the same. Or they could have gone outside the squad - picked Foakes of Ahmed or Livingstone... but who's to say any such move would actually improve things ?

Lots of errors and misjudgements over these two matches. And yes , 2 down. But each game turned on a few fine points and could easily have gone the other way so I don't think we need despair. Tall order to come back from here but can only address what is in front of them and hopefully they can make a start tomorrow.

England supporter hat on of course : but I think the neutrals would quite like this to go to 2-1 to keep the excitement flowing...

alfie wrote:I mean , I get the doubts over this selection. But honestly who could they pick instead with any sort of guarantee of success ?

Tongue could have stayed in place of Robinson maybe. Lawrence could have kept the batting order essentially the same. Or they could have gone outside the squad - picked Foakes of Ahmed or Livingstone... but who's to say any such move would actually improve things ?

Lots of errors and misjudgements over these two matches. And yes , 2 down. But each game turned on a few fine points and could easily have gone the other way so I don't think we need despair.   Tall order to come back from here but can only address what is in front of them and hopefully they can make a start tomorrow.

England supporter hat on of course : but I think the neutrals would quite like this to go to 2-1 to keep the excitement flowing...

Well there are no guarantees in sport, but safe to say picking Crawley and Moeen, both continual failures, is not the most likely route to success. Removing a specialist batsman when the batting totals have been consistently below par is not aiding things either. Persisting with Bairstow with the gloves also isn't fantastic. England's selection through the Ashes has been a mess and it's continuing here.

Would love to see an England win, but I'd be amazed if it happens. They've already spurned two decent chances, at Edgbaston and at Lord's with Lyon's injury, and I don't think England will get better opportunities than that. We're overdue for an Aussie hammering and Headingley might just be where it happens.

alfie, I would actually argue that at 0-2 down, this is the worst side England have picked so far.

For me.

Wood in, fine but for Jimmy
Woakes in, fine but for Robinson
Moeen in, not fine. If England needed a spinner then it was easily a selection between Raheen and Dawson.
If they thought that a spinner was not required and that Root could do the job (as he has already out bowled Moeen) then either Lawrence as a direct replacement for Pope or bring in Foakes (not sure what he has done wrong) and keep Bairstow as a specialist batter.

Duty281 wrote:England's fixtures for the 2024 summer have been released:
(...)
Not the most exciting summer. More cricket shoved into September because of the Hundred nonsense. Pointless games against Australia scheduled for the cash registers.

Half the Tests in London, with both series going to Lord's. Although I also wouldn't be surprised if the officials from the visiting board push for a few days of MCC hospitality.
No womens Test seems slightly surprising, given the narrative the last couple of years.
Seems like a lot of May and September dates in general, would it not be an idea to start scheduling white ball games around Tests with the current squads?

The simplest answer to the 'why Robinson instead of Tongue' question would seem to be that Wood is in for Tongue in the 'change of pace slot' and Woakes isn't in line for the 'new ball slot'. Might also think there's a chance this will be Wood's only test, and they don't want to risk losing Tongue too, or that the Aussies will have figured out Tongue now they've had a look (but neither would seem consistent with how they've managed the bowlers so far).

Lowlandbrit wrote:The simplest answer to the 'why Robinson instead of Tongue' question would seem to be.

...that Robinson is a much better bowler. Surely that's the simplest answer.

Tongue had a nice test match, he isn't suddenly some combination of Brett Lee/Glenn McGrath we're leaving out

Re Wood and Tongue. I'd guess they are hoping to get one of them in, vitally get them in whilst able to bowl near their top pace, for the remaining Tests.

Lords - Tongue
Headingley - Wood
Old Trafford - Tongue
Oval - Wood

Which does make some sense to me after how pedestrian the medium-fast battery looked at Lords.

I've thought for a long while now that this England group really struggle without 4 seamers. Stokes can barely bowl. Yes, he got through that 12 over spell of 80mph bumpers but the knee will be even more cooked as a result. Plus, we need his batting.

Successful three man seam attacks generally either need an exceptional spinner or they need seamers who can perform a variety of roles. Cummins for instance is a brilliant new ball bowler, second best change bowler in Test history after Joel Garner and a genuine quick that bowl short on flat decks. Rabada is similar albeit slightly less consistent. Bumrah is excellent with new ball and old.

England have a battery of skilled bowlers. They aren't bowlers who can perform as wide a variety of roles though. Especially now Jimmy and Broad have aged. Lots of very skilled medium-fast seamers but if it goes flat they are bowling dry at best. Even most the injured quicks have more pace but again they have less variety of skills than those named above. The exception there of course is Archer who has the natural skills to bowl hostile short spells in the high 90s, then pare it back and bowl incredible seam in the mid 80s. Sadly, we may never see Jof again in Tests though.

All that is before the England spin issues too.

I think I'd have stuck with a 4 man seam attack but would've ideally brought Foakes in for Pope. Or from the squad selected I'd have trusted Lawrence.

Duty281 wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Seems like a team you pick when you don’t believe 4 or even all 5 of your bowlers are 100% fit or can be trusted to play a Test at full intensity without breaking down.

Does seem to be the case. Stokes got through a lot of overs, relatively speaking, in the last test. Broad + Robinson have bowled two full days worth of overs between them in this series already; Broad no spring chicken and Robinson with infamous fitness issues. And Wood, no long-form cricket since December, not even a county game to test his durability. Even Woakes hasn't played a test in over a year.

Of course part of this depth problem is down to England's notorious injury problems, but it's also partially because of Australia applying the grind of test cricket and wearing England's bowlers down. Something England, with Bazball, don't do in return.

Yep and you didn't even mention Moeen's finger there!

As Alfie says, you can never have any guarantees and there aren't that many others screaming out to be picked but we do seem close to a ''sicknote'' attack. Similar to a few others here, I would have liked to have kept Tongue and dialled up the heat by playing both him and Wood.

I'm happy enough for Woakes to be given an opportunity. After all, he's a proper number 8. However, I don't think we should expect wonders from him in his main job with the ball. I watched him online earlier in the season in Warks' home Championship match against Surrey. He was tidy enough but lacked penetration and went wicketless. Hopefully, he'll improve on that over the next few days.

As to the track for the third Test, I noticed these words from David 'Bumble' Lloyd yesterday which reflect a financial factor I've been banging on about since before the series started:

''On to Headingley and England need a pitch more conducive to their bowlers because the first two have not been kind. I'm not sure they'll get that because Yorkshire need the money and could do with a five-day Test!''

When resisting the urge to play the clown, Lloyd is normally a sound judge of all things cricket.

Australia expected to go with Boland in for Hazlewood and Murphy in for Lyon, according to Cricinfo. The other 9 to retain their place. Warner's threatening a big score, I reckon. Labuschagne is battling hard to rediscover his form. It will be Smith's 100th test and he looked in superb touch at Lord's. Starc and Cummins in excellent form in the bowling.

Aussies have a strange record at Headingley. They've won four and lost four of the previous eight Ashes tests at this ground, dating back to 1981. But in three of the four losses, Australia were dominating the contest, only to get mugged by Botham, Bob Willis, Butcher and Ben Stokes on various occasions. The four tests Australia have won without getting mugged (89, 93, 97 and 09) have all been trouncings - three by an innings and one by 210 runs.

So history tells us that either Australia will win by a lot, or will be denied by some act of heroism with someone who has a 'B' to kick off either name - Ben Duckett, Brook, Bairstow, Ben Stokes, Stuart Broad, all in contention.

Don't forget about your favourite Boeen Bali there Duty!

Apparently extra security has been organised for Headingley following Lords being woken from it's usual slumber. Basically, it's expected to be fiery.

Reports on pitches are that it's green today but England's team suggests they are expecting it to flatten out. That certainly happened a Headingley last time out against NZ where Leach got 10 wickets and England chased down nearly 300 in 54.2 overs.

Cracking journalist and avid net watcher Bharat Sundaresen noted at training the Green hasn't been seen as much but Marsh was getting a good workout. It may not be that Green is due to miss out here but there certainly seem to be concerns around workload management for him.

Not a Marsh brother, double hundred for Australia incoming!

As for B's at Headingley. Don't ever forget Ravi Bopara holding off the Australian attack in 2009 for scores of 1 and 0. A truly great performance!

VTR wrote:Not a Marsh brother, double hundred for Australia incoming!

Rut oh, Marsh brother hundred PTSD kicking in. This is not good

king_carlos wrote:Don't forget about your favourite Boeen Bali there Duty!

Apparently extra security has been organised for Headingley following Lords being woken from it's usual slumber. Basically, it's expected to be fiery.

Reports on pitches are that it's green today but England's team suggests they are expecting it to flatten out. That certainly happened a Headingley last time out against NZ where Leach got 10 wickets and England chased down nearly 300 in 54.2 overs.

Cracking journalist and avid net watcher Bharat Sundaresen noted at training the Green hasn't been seen as much but Marsh was getting a good workout. It may not be that Green is due to miss out here but there certainly seem to be concerns around workload management for him.

Apparently Marsh has been seen marking out his run-up, while Green is standing around doing nothing, so quite possibly Marsh is in for this test. Mind you, we heard something similar for the first test!

VTR wrote:As for B's at Headingley. Don't ever forget Ravi Bopara holding off the Australian attack in 2009 for scores of 1 and 0. A truly great performance!

I'd take prime Ravi Bopara in this team over Zak Crawley...

Good piece from Glenn McGrath here, especially his views on The Bairstow Incident:

'The Bairstow dismissal, the Yorkshireman walking out of his crease like he owned the game, was the culmination of everything we have seen from this current team.

'I have read a lot about the 'spirit of cricket' this week. Well, you have to respect Test cricket with your attitude as well. You cannot just go wandering out of your crease.'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/66107771

England win the toss, third time in a row I believe, and will field first. Don't think it's as clear-cut a decision as the first two. Aussies would have bowled as well. Murphy, Boland and Marsh all in. Marsh's first test for nearly four years. Green apparently struggling with a hamstring issue. No Hazlewood, as anticipated.

Dharmasena and Menon the umpires for this one.

Mitch Marsh, the Ghost who refuses to be dead and buried, resurrects
I was surprised to see he is only 31 and has a both test & FC bowling records quite better than Mr. Potential Green.

Marsh only needs 3 wickets and a 50 to seal this spot in his name

The team that has won the toss has lost the test so far in this Ashes

Eng have gone to the template that I thought they will starting from T1....bowl first and set themselves to chase whatever they get in 4th inning

Duty281 wrote:England win the toss, third time in a row I believe, and will field first. Don't think it's as clear-cut a decision as the first two. Aussies would have bowled as well. Murphy, Boland and Marsh all in. Marsh's first test for nearly four years. Green apparently struggling with a hamstring issue. No Hazlewood, as anticipated.

Dharmasena and Menon the umpires for this one.

Yeah interesting both wanted to bowl first, considering the turnaround between tests and bowlers workloads. Doesn't seem to be massively overcast conditions either.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

Duty281 wrote:England win the toss, third time in a row I believe, and will field first. Don't think it's as clear-cut a decision as the first two. Aussies would have bowled as well. Murphy, Boland and Marsh all in. Marsh's first test for nearly four years. Green apparently struggling with a hamstring issue. No Hazlewood, as anticipated.

Dharmasena and Menon the umpires for this one.

Yeah interesting both wanted to bowl first, considering the turnaround between tests and bowlers workloads. Doesn't seem to be massively overcast conditions either.

Get through the first hour and I think it'll be good for batting, but we'll see.

Lightning outfield as Warner pushes one for four!

I'm at work, what's the pitch like?

Broad gets Warner again... 16 times now

And Warner doesn't get through the first hour! Or, indeed, the first over. Good catch from Crawley.

Broady!

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I'm at work, what's the pitch like?

Some green, seems plenty of bounce and pace in it.

would like to see wood given a early spell while the ball is hard, even if its just quick one

Re: decision to bat first, should be noted that at Headingley the team bowling first has won the last 5 tests at the venue, three of which included 4th innings chases (the other two were won by an innings).

This year in county stuff, Leicestershire chased 392, and Yorkshire made 412/9 in a 4th innings too.

Looks a much more competitive pitch already. Pace and bounce for the seamers but plenty of value for good shots so far

I know they've lost that early wicket, but it looks a good batting day to me. The Australians will like this amount of bounce and carry, and the quick outfield will add further runs.

got my request

Quite a bit of pace in that over. Think I heard Labuschagne say 'sheesh' as he defended the last one.

Looks a good batting day but might be the better bowling conditions in the first innings. Toughie

Wood is seriously revved up but not quite finding the right area yet

Yeah, lot of 'wows' over his pace, but his radar was a bit off. Some great swing, though.

Time for Woakes to return.