England - the build-up and winning the World Cup at a canter

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Here we go again.....

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fair enough. Just seemed odd that as you see the defence and attack improve someone coming in may disrupt that.

England's attack hasn't improved yet though...

Oh, wait a minute. You silly goose, you. I see what you've done. Given me a jolly good, leg slapping, bamboozle right there. Imagine it. Wait till I tell the others. "He took the forcibly positive media spin that coaches and players offer after a poor performance and presented it from a fans perspective", I'll say. They won't believe it. Never been seen before, you know. Some creatives just aren't appreciated in their time, sadly. Van Gogh never sold a painting I'll tell 'em.

Re Dombrant. I'm in the Sam camp there I'm afraid Doc. I really don't think he'd shine for the ABs. I reckon he'd just be walking around the pitch in a different colour shirt. Black would be a more flattering colour for him though!

mountain man wrote:

king_carlos wrote:mm - 7.5 has clearly been on the wind up for several days now mate.

Yes I'm aware of that but there are wind ups and there is insanity....

Ah mate, this ain't insanity - this is quality.

king_carlos wrote:Re Dombrant. I'm in the Sam camp there I'm afraid Doc. I really don't think he'd shine for the ABs. I reckon he'd just be walking around the pitch in a different colour shirt. Black would be a more flattering colour for him though!

I think he could fit right in and keep a dynamic attack going.  Not saying he would beat out Savea, nor that he would (could?) even make the squad, but he plays a game more similar to theirs and would, to me, be in the mix.  I think he fits the mold with his ball handling and eye for the gap, and I think would do fine.  Ultimately, my point is the way he plays is so far from the Boks, he wouldn't come close to their squad.  Maybe a season in their Super Rugby like Marchant would help...

Just saw that Jonny Hill will be in the team on Saturday despite not being in the England RWC squad. The injury bug is hitting early this year. Why does this seem a metaphor for England Rugby in general?

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fair enough. Just seemed odd that as you see the defence and attack improve someone coming in may disrupt that.

England's attack hasn't improved yet though...

Oh, wait a minute. You silly goose, you. I see what you've done. Given me a jolly good, leg slapping, bamboozle right there. Imagine it. Wait till I tell the others. "He took the forcibly positive media spin that coaches and players offer after a poor performance and presented it from a fans perspective", I'll say. They won't believe it. Never been seen before, you know. Some creatives just aren't appreciated in their time, sadly. Van Gogh never sold a painting I'll tell 'em.

If you want to merely equate attack as tries perhaps but that's just being clever. Final pass was still letting us down yes but we should have come away with 3 or 4.

Think the team announcement and match this weekend should bring some cheer anyway. It'll be a considerably stronger team we're putting out (though to me Wales look stronger too) and I think again we'll hold them to less than 4 tries, and I reckon we'll see a much better kicking game. Reckon Ford and Farrell with start with Youngs so should be able to pin them back most of the game.

If Hill is in starting XV then that definitely doesn't make it considerably stronger especially as he'll probably get carded for doing something stupid.
Sorry if I'm coming over as all 7.5 like with Malins but Hill just doesn't do it for me. I can't be bothered to check how many caps he's had now but I reckon out of all he's had 1 properly good game for England. The rest average to mediocre.

Oh and holding Wales to less than 4 tries. Very good but more effort needed.

Hey Malins showed up really well last week. Claimed most of the high balls he went for. He spoke really well on the podcast as well highlighting that that's the area he's in for along with coming off his wing to support the 10 with calling the plays.
Hill is OK, he's literally there to save exacerbating injuries and he'll be a little step up from Martin if anything.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hey Malins showed up really well last week. Claimed most of the high balls he went for. He spoke really well on the podcast as well highlighting that that's the area he's in for along with coming off his wing to support the 10 with calling the plays.
Hill is OK, he's literally there to save exacerbating injuries and he'll be a little step up from Martin if anything.

Well thats a great skill to unleash when they're getting their a$$ handed to them by Argentina....

Hill has two yellows in 21 games for England. If he could bring his club form to international level there would be one hell of a player there. He's big, how work rate is good, strong at the set piece but pulls on the Rose and he just looks off the pace. Martin is 7 years younger and looked the more useful or the two last weekend. Martin needs some big impacts on the game though, lots of good work and kept on the right side of sir but team topping stats for carries and tackles won't be enough to get him cemented into a starting spot.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hey Malins showed up really well last week. Claimed most of the high balls he went for. He spoke really well on the podcast as well highlighting that that's the area he's in for along with coming off his wing to support the 10 with calling the plays.
Hill is OK, he's literally there to save exacerbating injuries and he'll be a little step up from Martin if anything.

Malins

formerly known as Sam wrote:Hill has two yellows in 21 games for England. If he could bring his club form to international level there would be one hell of a player there. He's big, how work rate is good, strong at the set piece but pulls on the Rose and he just looks off the pace. Martin is 7 years younger and looked the more useful or the two last weekend. Martin needs some big impacts on the game though, lots of good work and kept on the right side of sir but team topping stats for carries and tackles won't be enough to get him cemented into a starting spot.

Hill also been penalised a few times for utterly silly, petulant acts. Agree his club form was brilliant especially for Exeter which is how he got into Eng team on back of that but he has never convinced for Eng.
Hopefully he'll prove me wrong and have MoM winning performance on Saturday.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Hill has two yellows in 21 games for England. If he could bring his club form to international level there would be one hell of a player there. He's big, how work rate is good, strong at the set piece but pulls on the Rose and he just looks off the pace. Martin is 7 years younger and looked the more useful or the two last weekend. Martin needs some big impacts on the game though, lots of good work and kept on the right side of sir but team topping stats for carries and tackles won't be enough to get him cemented into a starting spot.

Hes definitely going to be more use going forward. Just the conditions probably did for him and getting used to the pace. Just a few handling issues and falling off the Rowlands tackle.

Thought the team would be out by now. 10 last week and it kicks off the same time doesn't it? Maybe waiting on a few fitness tests.

Martin, Chessum, Chessum Jr...the three that will lead the way over the next few years...

I thought one of England's better players against Wales was David Ribbans. He seems to be a good all-rounder and is a big man. I would be worried about coming up against him and Itoje. Back-row, I'd be interested in seeing a combination of Curry, Earl and Willis!

Geordie wrote:Martin, Chessum, Chessum Jr...the three that will lead the way over the next few years...

I'd like to see the Chessums put a bit more bulk on, I'm sure they will next year or so. Excellent prospects.
I'd add in Cunningham-South as well, assuming he doesn't go to NZ.

Ribbans really impressed me last week and against Ireland. I've been a bit agnostic on him previously but he's proving me wrong. Which is great as England need more locks.

He failed a HIA last weekend though so won't feature in the return fixture. Chessum also isn't quite ready apparently, though back in contact training. Hence Hill in the squad.

I'm hoping to see 4.Itoje 5.Martin 6.Lawes for this weekend. I think that could balance well.

I could see CCS pushing Dombrandt for the Quins shirt. He's the best athlete England have had come through at 8 since Billy was first tearing it up with Wasps. Being athletic isn't everything of course. But it is a large part of the battle when international 8s need to be able to make yards when running into guys like Ollivon, PSdT and Savea.

Barbeary is of course the other talent we just have to hope can get through his injuries. His raw ability to make yards against set defences and after contact is rare.

king_carlos wrote:I could see CCS pushing Dombrandt for the Quins shirt. He's the best athlete England have had come through at 8 since Billy was first tearing it up with Wasps. Being athletic isn't everything of course. But it is a large part of the battle when international 8s need to be able to make yards when running into guys like Ollivon, PSdT and Savea.

Barbeary is of course the other talent we just have to hope can get through his injuries. His raw ability to make yards against set defences and after contact is rare.

KC, i agree about CCS. I think hes more than just athletic...hes aggressive, strong...and also a bit reckless. A rough diamond that really could be a gem. 6 or 8 thought...hopefully 8.

England team for weekend announced at 12? Anyone know?

mountain man wrote:England team for weekend announced at 12? Anyone know?

yup out now

15. Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 23 caps)

14. Henry Arundell (Racing 92, 7 caps)

13. Joe Marchant (Stade Francais, 16 caps)

12. Ollie Lawrence (Bath Rugby, 11 caps)

11. Elliot Daly (Saracens, 57 caps)

10. Owen Farrell (C) (Saracens, 106 caps)

9. Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers, 13 caps)

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 79 caps)

2. Jamie George (Saracens, 77 caps)

3. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 26 caps)

4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 67 caps)

5. George Martin (Leicester Tigers, 2 caps)

6. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 97 caps)

7. Ben Earl (Saracens, 15 caps)

8. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 68 caps)

Replacements
16. Theo Dan (Saracens, 1 cap)

17. Ellis Genge (Bristol Bears, 49 caps)

18. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 100 caps)

19. Jonny Hill (Sale Sharks, 20 caps)

20. Jack Willis (Toulouse, 10 caps)

21. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 122 caps)

22. George Ford (Sale Sharks, 82 caps)

23. Max Malins (Bristol Bears, 19 caps)

BORTHWICK ON HIS MATCH DAY SQUAD
“We are very much looking forward to our return to Twickenham Stadium on Saturday, and the opportunity to play in front of our supporters again,” said Borthwick. “England versus Wales is always a special fixture, and we are pleased to be playing the visitors again so soon.

“We’re delighted for Ellis who will win his 50th cap from the bench. He’s a brilliant professional, both on and off the field, and I’m sure Saturday will be a very proud moment for him and his family.”

On Jonny Hill’s involvement, Borthwick added: “Jonny has trained with us throughout the week, and I am pleased to be able to name him in the match day 23. I have no doubt he will provide a big impact for us off the bench.”.

Now THATS a team i can get behind!!!

Now THAT is a better team. Loving the backline - Lawrence, Marchant, Arundell. Some pace and power.
Interesting to see how Billy goes. Earl in, I'm happy with that.

Geordie wrote:Now THATS a team i can get behind!!!

Snap! Almost.

Yep, that looks much better, it is still just a warm up game but this looks like they are selecting to have a proper go at it.

Told you the positivity would come flooding back with the team! If Arundell and Daly pick up where Malins and Watson left out we should get loads of time in the 22 again.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hey Malins showed up really well last week. Claimed most of the high balls he went for. He spoke really well on the podcast as well highlighting that that's the area he's in for along with coming off his wing to support the 10 with calling the plays.
Hill is OK, he's literally there to save exacerbating injuries and he'll be a little step up from Martin if anything.

That wasn't the impression of Malins that I came away with - I remember him mostly failing to contest high balls, dropping a couple of passes and getting closed down easily for the one shot at the try line he was given. He wasn't as underwhelming as Cokanasiga, but I wasn't impressed.

Are there reliable stats available anywhere? It's interesting that we have such differing opinions and it would be useful to know if there's an objective source to form a better view.

Speaking of stats, there were 24 passes from England forwards during the match last week. No wonder ball handling went as badly as it did when you're playing that loose.

From Chrlie Morgan btw :That figure of 24 includes transfers at line-outs and four passes from acting scrum-halves. So in phase shape, England's forwards passed 11 times. They had 110 rucks in possession. Had to be deliberate IMO. Same with the kicking - one attacking grubber, no kicks from the edge

Quite concerning our tactics in the last two games versus England, the tactic seemed to be kick to Steward but don't put him under any pressure... I think this team will be better at utilising their possession and territory.

mikey_dragon wrote:Quite concerning our tactics in the last two games versus England, the tactic seemed to be kick to Steward but don't put him under any pressure... I think this team will be better at utilising their possession and territory.

There was a nice bit on twitter can't remember who who picked out fake box kicks to Steward and then picking out Cokanasiga by spinning the ball to fly half. Should work even better with Daly.

I quite like that team.

I was nearly there with my predictions in the forwards. Just Earl for Willis in the starting XV. Then Cole on the bench instead of Sinckler. Fairly close.

Further off in the backs as I expected we'd see the Ford-Farrell axis. Marchant for Ford basically compared to my predictions. I'd guess Watson might have a niggle given May was training with the squad again but Arundell and Marchant are playing.

It feels like there's a few things there that England need to click though. Marler, Billy and Daly back in international rugby. They desperately need George to be at his best and remain fit. Stuart kicking on would be a massive boost.

Arundell will presumably be taking on that role Watson did in the Six Nations where he was covering a lot of ground in the back field. If Arundell can nail that I think he could be brilliant on the right wing, in partnership with Daly.

The Itoje/Martin/Lawes combination looks like they should complement one another well to me. That needs to be translated onto the pitch.

That looks like a second row and back row that Earl should fit into perfectly. Lots of grunt to allow him to run the exceptional support lines he can with Sarries. Again, that needs to be translated onto the pitch at the next level though.

I see that as a selection that makes sense. There are lots of talented players and round pegs in round holes. Whether it translates into performance is a different question.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Quite concerning our tactics in the last two games versus England, the tactic seemed to be kick to Steward but don't put him under any pressure... I think this team will be better at utilising their possession and territory.

There was a nice bit on twitter can't remember who who picked out fake box kicks to Steward and then picking out Cokanasiga by spinning the ball to fly half. Should work even better with Daly.

First half Wales seemed to pick out Steward a lot before switching up as you say. Even competing with Steward in the air he's such a big guy and gets so high unless you chaser is able to get up early an own the space it's virtually impossible to compete legally.

Knowing that Steward covers the kicks and shifts the other players in the backfield to take on the responsibility does open up potential opportunities to target England. Arundell and Daly can both play at 15 and counter attack so will be interesting to see what Wales try.

You say Daly can play 15....any evidence for this?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Quite concerning our tactics in the last two games versus England, the tactic seemed to be kick to Steward but don't put him under any pressure... I think this team will be better at utilising their possession and territory.

There was a nice bit on twitter can't remember who who picked out fake box kicks to Steward and then picking out Cokanasiga by spinning the ball to fly half. Should work even better with Daly.

First half Wales seemed to pick out Steward a lot before switching up as you say. Even competing with Steward in the air he's such a big guy and gets so high unless you chaser is able to get up early an own the space it's virtually impossible to compete legally.

Knowing that Steward covers the kicks and shifts the other players in the backfield to take on the responsibility does open up potential opportunities to target England. Arundell and Daly can both play at 15 and counter attack so will be interesting to see what Wales try.

Interestingly, it seemed like the chat before the game from Costellow (I think it was him chatting about it, on the Gwlad Gwlad video released by Wales showing training etc) was that they weren't going to kick to Steward, because he is great in the air. The plan seemed to be find grass ha.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Quite concerning our tactics in the last two games versus England, the tactic seemed to be kick to Steward but don't put him under any pressure... I think this team will be better at utilising their possession and territory.

There was a nice bit on twitter can't remember who who picked out fake box kicks to Steward and then picking out Cokanasiga by spinning the ball to fly half. Should work even better with Daly.

First half Wales seemed to pick out Steward a lot before switching up as you say. Even competing with Steward in the air he's such a big guy and gets so high unless you chaser is able to get up early an own the space it's virtually impossible to compete legally.

Knowing that Steward covers the kicks and shifts the other players in the backfield to take on the responsibility does open up potential opportunities to target England. Arundell and Daly can both play at 15 and counter attack so will be interesting to see what Wales try.

Arundell is just barely out of nappies, Wales should kick to him relentlessly. And then we will see if Arundell is the goods fielding kicks or not. Daly will probably be OK, though he has seemed in the past to get a case of the wobblies when catching a kick in traffic.

The England lineup is better than last Saturday on paper. But I have no idea if this Wales squad will be batter than last week or not. I thought I read that Gatland changed the whole XV and some of the entire 23? Just want to set expectations before the game.

Eliott Daly Fullback extrordinaire.  Can play across the back three, but he ain't no Malins....

After last weeks scrum issues it will be interesting to see how a frontrow of Marler, George and Stuart go. They are on paper at least our 3 strongest scrummagers in their position. With a sizeable back 5 behind them, I can see England doing a lot of holding the ball in and going for penalties. A nice diversion from the endless box kicking.

I wouldn't be upset with that being the starting front row for the RWC with Genge and Sinckler used off the bench. Stuart has improved a lot in the last year to 18 months. I didn't rate him for a while in an England shirt but he has pushed on well.

I'm looking forward to seeing how Dan does in the scrum alongside Genge or Marler rather than Rodd as well. I rate Rodd, have been mentioning him for a while as his breakdown work is something our other props can't do. He's really talented but also weak in the scrum currently. That's not a surprise at 22-years-old. It was a bit unavoidable that Rodd and Dan next to each other looked tiny compared to Sinckler and their opposite numbers though.

RiscaGame wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Quite concerning our tactics in the last two games versus England, the tactic seemed to be kick to Steward but don't put him under any pressure... I think this team will be better at utilising their possession and territory.

There was a nice bit on twitter can't remember who who picked out fake box kicks to Steward and then picking out Cokanasiga by spinning the ball to fly half. Should work even better with Daly.

First half Wales seemed to pick out Steward a lot before switching up as you say. Even competing with Steward in the air he's such a big guy and gets so high unless you chaser is able to get up early an own the space it's virtually impossible to compete legally.

Knowing that Steward covers the kicks and shifts the other players in the backfield to take on the responsibility does open up potential opportunities to target England. Arundell and Daly can both play at 15 and counter attack so will be interesting to see what Wales try.

Interestingly, it seemed like the chat before the game from Costellow (I think it was him chatting about it, on the Gwlad Gwlad video released by Wales showing training etc) was that they weren't going to kick to Steward, because he is great in the air. The plan seemed to be find grass ha.

Costelow should know how good Steward's positioning is they were in the same academy and development team for at least four years. Was a good development year that one in the Tigers academy Martin, JVP, Steward and Costelow all featured last weekend from that side.

Sharkey06 wrote:After last weeks scrum issues it will be interesting to see how a frontrow of Marler, George and Stuart go.  They are on paper at least our 3 strongest scrummagers in their position.  With a sizeable back 5 behind them, I can see England doing a lot of holding the ball in and going for penalties.  A nice diversion from the endless box kicking.

Scrum only became an issue in the second half though. England dominated in the first and probably deserved more reward then they got.

If Sinckler's form was better and LCD was fit I'd have really been hoping for the England answer to the bomb squad. Start with Marler/George/Stuart and then shortly after half time or at half time bring on Genge/LCD/Sinckler. I suppose we could still do it with the props though Sinckler really needs to find some form. Not sure the move to Bristol has been particularly good for his or Genge's development.

I really, really want this team to go well!

There are a lot of players there who need a big game, but they definitely have the talent to put a score on Wales if they do.

Conversely a bad game and I don't think we'll see some of these players again except for covering other players.

Also very impressive for Lawes, he's within touching distance of the 100 caps club.

yappysnap wrote:I really, really want this team to go well!

There are a lot of players there who need a big game, but they definitely have the talent to put a score on Wales if they do.

Conversely a bad game and I don't think we'll see some of these players again except for covering other players.

Except the squad's picked and Borthwick has now come right out and said that he's focused on getting the players in the best possible shape for the Argentina game and they hadn't really tapered their training last week.

We really can't read too much into these warmup performances on that basis. Borthwick is clearly prepared to sacrifice the performance now for fitness when it the games actually matter.

I'm inclined to focus on what is working for England and what they're trying to do rather than worry too much about what doesn't come off. And I suspect that what we're seeing in these games is squad rotation, and we're more likely to see something like the XXIII for Argentina against Ireland.

Yea perhaps what I more meant was we seem to see a lot of players come into the side and be average. I would love to see the team play and just click and put in a performance. Can't remember the last time that happened.

yappysnap wrote:Yea perhaps what I more meant was we seem to see a lot of players come into the side and be average. I would love to see the team play and just click and put in a performance. Can't remember the last time that happened.

Dream dream dream.......it is the hope that kills you!

hugehandoff wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Yea perhaps what I more meant was we seem to see a lot of players come into the side and be average. I would love to see the team play and just click and put in a performance. Can't remember the last time that happened.

Dream dream dream.......it is the hope that kills you!

Dreams are all we have now!

yappysnap wrote:

hugehandoff wrote:
Dream dream dream.......it is the hope that kills you!

Dreams are all we have now!

Now you know what its like being a Scotland fan :-)

doctor_grey wrote:Eliott Daly Fullback extrordinaire.  Can play across the back three, but he ain't no Malins....

I remember with fondness how safe I felt everything the ball went up in the air for him to contest. I have no idea why we moved away from him?