England - the build-up and winning the World Cup at a canter

First topic message reminder :

Here we go again.....

Geordie wrote:We do have to remember of course that the Ireland United Nations are a team at their peak...through the cycle...as opposed to where England are....

A bit of a cheep shot there Geordie.

Poorfour wrote:I thought at a team level England and Ireland weren’t too far apart on tackles made and tackles missed? Sinfield’s system is still vulnerable if teams can get wide fast (and the the first Irish try came from engineering a 3 on 2 close to a ruck, England failing to number off effectively), but it seems to be working better now.

We also need to be careful about whether individual missed tackles are down to the person or the system. England are running a spearhead type defence with the middle of the line pressing up fast to block off the outside channels. The player leading the spear is likely to miss some tackles because their job is primarily to disrupt, with the tackles being closed off by the rest of the line.

There was some good analysis around Tigers defence under Sinfield in that regard. It often looked like wingers such as Nadolo and Ashton were woefully out of place but when broken down it was a defensive system designed at preventing the ball getting wide. As such, if the ball does get wide players get isolated and are easy to point to as the culprit. Whereas it's actually the phases prior and system inside that failed.

The issue with that sort of defensive system is that you have to make a lot of dominant tackles. That's the only realistic way to stop a team outflanking a narrow defence. Prevent them getting momentum. That's a lot easier to do in a poor Premiership than it is against Ireland. The worst ball carrier in Ireland's XV on Saturday was probably Ryan or POM. Fantastic players. It's almost a different sport compared to many Prem fixtures now with Championship level players and undercooked, albeit talented, academy prospects filling space purely to save costs.

If an interantional quality team gets a bit of momentum then getting outside of a defence won't trouble them much. As seen with Ireland using Hansen as a second five-eighth to put a cross field kick in to circumnavigate where the defence is designed to be strong.

I keep coming back to my same concern during the dire latter years of Eddie's tenure. Whilst areas of coaching and selection can certainly be criticised, I just don't see the Prem as a high enough standard week in, week out now for it to be a good gauge of international quality in selection or a good tool for preparing the best talents to make the jump up. Dombrandt stood out in the Prem over a long period. Billy V in his Prem performances across the last two seasons has been very good. Both have looked utter mince at interantional level. That's my biggest concern and one I don't see an easy fix for.

carpet baboon wrote:

Geordie wrote:We do have to remember of course that the Ireland United Nations are a team at their peak...through the cycle...as opposed to where England are....

A bit of a cheep shot there Geordie.

Thats true it was.

Geordie wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

Geordie wrote:We do have to remember of course that the Ireland United Nations are a team at their peak...through the cycle...as opposed to where England are....

A bit of a cheep shot there Geordie.

Thats true it was.

I forgive you. England are punishing you enough

carpet baboon wrote:

Geordie wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

Geordie wrote:We do have to remember of course that the Ireland United Nations are a team at their peak...through the cycle...as opposed to where England are....

A bit of a cheep shot there Geordie.

Thats true it was.

I forgive you. England are punishing you enough

They are. Im a very positive person normally, but its running out...i still think Borthwick can fix it...but its all a mess at the moment.

Grup stage exit this year...but hopefully a few future stars and the future spine of the team can be blooded this WC...

king_carlos wrote:

Poorfour wrote:I thought at a team level England and Ireland weren’t too far apart on tackles made and tackles missed? Sinfield’s system is still vulnerable if teams can get wide fast (and the the first Irish try came from engineering a 3 on 2 close to a ruck, England failing to number off effectively), but it seems to be working better now.

We also need to be careful about whether individual missed tackles are down to the person or the system. England are running a spearhead type defence with the middle of the line pressing up fast to block off the outside channels. The player leading the spear is likely to miss some tackles because their job is primarily to disrupt, with the tackles being closed off by the rest of the line.

I keep coming back to my same concern I just don't see the Prem as a high enough standard week in, week out now for it to be a good gauge of international quality in selection or a good tool for preparing the best talents to make the jump up. That's my biggest concern and one I don't see an easy fix for.

So how is it fixed?

Bring back relegation?

They dont have it in Ireland, Scotland, (Southern Hempisphere but thats a little different due to the standards)

Stewards issue is his lack of pace - everything happens quicker in an international game and he is being found out. good skills and positioning cannot compensate enough for his simple lack of pace. How many times has he been outpaced to the line ?

TJ wrote:Stewards issue is his lack of pace - everything happens quicker in an international game and he is being found out.  good skills and positioning cannot compensate enough for his simple lack of pace.  How many times has he been outpaced to the line ?

I dont think its his top end pace per say...its his sprint start. Its none existant. So he has to catch up and his top end isnt quite good enough to catch the fastest wigners etc.

But this is where we need an defensive pattern to cover it...wingers etc...or next season Arundell (ifs he full back in france) Josh Hodge, Malins (if hes Full Back at Bristol) and Carpenter may be challenging him.

I disagree Eng will be out at group stage, even if beaten by Argentina they should be able to beat Japan, Samoa and Chile.

I don't have much optimism at all for them this RWC but even I think they'll get out of group.

Even if we go out early doors it'll be OK as it's because of the players that Borthwick has been forced into picking. Come the 6Ns or possibly 2025 I reckon we'll be ruling the world.

TJ wrote:Stewards issue is his lack of pace - everything happens quicker in an international game and he is being found out.  good skills and positioning cannot compensate enough for his simple lack of pace.  How many times has he been outpaced to the line ?

I don't think he's lacking pace over a distance, but (partly because he is a very tall man) he lacks the acceleration over the first 5 to 10 strides that makes the big difference to these defensive situations. Actually the opposite of me as a player - I was quick over the first few strides (small, nimble and strong legs) but had deceptive top end pace: I was slower than I looked.

Oh, and on a more general point, can we all agree that at the moment this is a relatively poor England team, and so expectations for the RWC should be low?
Getting out of the group should be a reasonable target, and maybe winning one knock-out game if we have a good day and our opponent's under-perform (or there's a sending off), but the chances of going deep are very limited.

dummy_half wrote:

TJ wrote:Stewards issue is his lack of pace - everything happens quicker in an international game and he is being found out.  good skills and positioning cannot compensate enough for his simple lack of pace.  How many times has he been outpaced to the line ?

I don't think he's lacking pace over a distance, but (partly because he is a very tall man) he lacks the acceleration over the first 5 to 10 strides that makes the big difference to these defensive situations. Actually the opposite of me as a player - I was quick over the first few strides (small, nimble and strong legs) but had deceptive top end pace: I was slower than I looked.

Jason Robinson...was like that. Scintillating over 40m....then struggled over the 100m.

dummy_half wrote:

TJ wrote:Stewards issue is his lack of pace - everything happens quicker in an international game and he is being found out.  good skills and positioning cannot compensate enough for his simple lack of pace.  How many times has he been outpaced to the line ?

I don't think he's lacking pace over a distance, but (partly because he is a very tall man) he lacks the acceleration over the first 5 to 10 strides that makes the big difference to these defensive situations. Actually the opposite of me as a player - I was quick over the first few strides (small, nimble and strong legs) but had deceptive top end pace: I was slower than I looked.

I think it's worth remembering that for the two tries he was 'outpaced' for on Saturday most on here would be demanding the player be dropped if it was an England player not scoring from that position.

dummy_half wrote:Oh, and on a more general point, can we all agree that at the moment this is a relatively poor England team, and so expectations for the RWC should be low?
Getting out of the group should be a reasonable target, and maybe winning one knock-out game if we have a good day and our opponent's under-perform (or there's a sending off), but the chances of going deep are very limited.

Expectations should be relatively low, which could actually help the English team by easing the pressure. Plus they're not playing any of the heavyweights early on, so there shouldn't be an early thumping which would tank morale.

With the way the draw is set a semi-final would be a par result, I reckon, which is odd to type because there's no way England are currently one of the best four teams in the world! Argentina, on a good day, might beat England in the group stage, but England should still get through even if that happens. Then it's a QF against either Australia or Wales, most probably, both of those also being in the doldrums and are beatable.

I noticed also that England's potential QF v Australia will be played in Marseille, which was where England recorded an unlikely win over Australia in 2007. Good omen, perhaps.

Geordie wrote:

dummy_half wrote:

TJ wrote:Stewards issue is his lack of pace - everything happens quicker in an international game and he is being found out.  good skills and positioning cannot compensate enough for his simple lack of pace.  How many times has he been outpaced to the line ?

I don't think he's lacking pace over a distance, but (partly because he is a very tall man) he lacks the acceleration over the first 5 to 10 strides that makes the big difference to these defensive situations. Actually the opposite of me as a player - I was quick over the first few strides (small, nimble and strong legs) but had deceptive top end pace: I was slower than I looked.

Jason Robinson...was like that. Scintillating over 40m....then struggled over the 100m.

Not sure he really struggled over the length of the pitch exactly, but certainly there were others had more top end. It was said that while at Wigan Rl, he could match Offiah over the first 30-40m but then Chariots just left him (and everyone else) in his wake.

What we need is a Brian habana who was quick off the mark and had top end speed, could Arundel be that player?

NZ have George bridge who they've played at fullback btw who is a top line speedster and finisher.

As for our chances-meh as long as we play some blooming rugby I'll be moderately happy. It goes to show continuity and the RFU are mutually exclusive. Going from contenders to also rans has to be their fault as they are ultimately incharge of the national team. The u20s have seen a decline as well so the primary directive has been lost probably due to them concentrating on filling the coffers again after COVID. Eddie Jones going lala didn't help as did the implosion of the premiership.

Geordie wrote:

dummy_half wrote:

TJ wrote:Stewards issue is his lack of pace - everything happens quicker in an international game and he is being found out.  good skills and positioning cannot compensate enough for his simple lack of pace.  How many times has he been outpaced to the line ?

I don't think he's lacking pace over a distance, but (partly because he is a very tall man) he lacks the acceleration over the first 5 to 10 strides that makes the big difference to these defensive situations. Actually the opposite of me as a player - I was quick over the first few strides (small, nimble and strong legs) but had deceptive top end pace: I was slower than I looked.

Jason Robinson...was like that. Scintillating over 40m....then struggled over the 100m.

Duhan van der merve - big man, fast accelerating, good top end

Steward just looks slow and ponderous to me.

Blair Kinghorn is also very tall 6'6 and fast and can turn on a dime. I think English teams have always prioritised size over agility, which is what a lot of England players over the years have been fairly tubby.

dummy_half wrote:

Geordie wrote:

dummy_half wrote:

TJ wrote:Stewards issue is his lack of pace - everything happens quicker in an international game and he is being found out.  good skills and positioning cannot compensate enough for his simple lack of pace.  How many times has he been outpaced to the line ?

I don't think he's lacking pace over a distance, but (partly because he is a very tall man) he lacks the acceleration over the first 5 to 10 strides that makes the big difference to these defensive situations. Actually the opposite of me as a player - I was quick over the first few strides (small, nimble and strong legs) but had deceptive top end pace: I was slower than I looked.

Jason Robinson...was like that. Scintillating over 40m....then struggled over the 100m.

Not sure he really struggled over the length of the pitch exactly, but certainly there were others had more top end. It was said that while at Wigan Rl, he could match Offiah over the first 30-40m but then Chariots just left him (and everyone else) in his wake.

Thats pretty much what i said?

Players rarely score length of field tries, certainly in Int matches so having speed from 0-40metres is what is needed more than flat out 100metre time.

Out of current squad probably Arundell most fits the bill.

And as luck would have can also play fullback.....

Just for fun.
Does anyone else think Manu is not very good at defending at 12?
And is in the team due to what he was rather than what his abilities are now?

carpet baboon wrote:Just for fun.
Does anyone else think Manu is not very good at defending at 12?
And is in the team due to what he was rather than what his abilities are now?

Yes..

Manu literally years past his best.

His weight loss which was done to help prevent injury has made him less effective in carry. Years ago he was a power phenomenon, he could smash through tackles at speed and continue. He would repeatedly do it as well.
Now he makes a couple of busts a game after which he needs time to recover.
As with most other players as they age he's also lost a bit of speed.

Regards defending, he never was picked for that anyway. If he hits a player they'll know about it but that's about it.

I think Manu is a player you could say was a good tackler but not necessarily a good defender - if an attacker runs at him, he'll knock them down, but if it comes to positioning and reading the play he's not anywhere near as good.

There was an interesting podcast with Tindall and Greenwood talking about how HRH would read the position and know whether Greenwood was OK with making the tackle that was coming his way, or if he was going to need some defensive help - Greenwood was an OK tackler, but never the strength of his game, yet as a pair they were amongst the very best defensive centre pairings in history (probably helped by having both a terrific back row and a 10 that didn't actively avoid tackling.

Geordie wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Poorfour wrote:I thought at a team level England and Ireland weren’t too far apart on tackles made and tackles missed? Sinfield’s system is still vulnerable if teams can get wide fast (and the the first Irish try came from engineering a 3 on 2 close to a ruck, England failing to number off effectively), but it seems to be working better now.

We also need to be careful about whether individual missed tackles are down to the person or the system. England are running a spearhead type defence with the middle of the line pressing up fast to block off the outside channels. The player leading the spear is likely to miss some tackles because their job is primarily to disrupt, with the tackles being closed off by the rest of the line.

I keep coming back to my same concern I just don't see the Prem as a high enough standard week in, week out now for it to be a good gauge of international quality in selection or a good tool for preparing the best talents to make the jump up. That's my biggest concern and one I don't see an easy fix for.

So how is it fixed?

Bring back relegation?

They dont have it in Ireland, Scotland, (Southern Hempisphere but thats a little different due to the standards)

Fixing it quickly? I'm not sure it can be, sadly.

When the Premiership was strong we should have invested in the Championship and a proper A-league with age restrictions (a limit on players over 23-years-old for instance). They half a**ed making the Championship professional, declared it not good enough, then ringfenced to avoid P-share clubs bouncing up and down. As things stand we have a weak ringfenced Prem, a broken and cut adrift Championship below that, then no form of development league to bridge the gap between age grade and senior rugby. It really is a fuster cluck of epic proportions even for the RFU and PRL.

Trying to push the England players into a few clubs is often raised as a solution but I don't think it would work in England. The Irish system works because it makes sense in Ireland. They had three clear rugby heart beds centred around Dublin (Leinster), Belfast (Ulster), Cork and Limerick (Munster). To my knowledge rugby wasn't as big in Galway (Connacht) but they've committed successfully to developing it there too. It therefore made sense to have a small number of teams concentrated around those areas. The playing talent and fans are too spread out to do similar in England though. I think we'd just lose too much. Trying to take a system that works for Ireland because it made sense in Ireland, then force a completely different system into that framework even though it doesn't make sense is just silly to me. I know you haven't suggested that yourself, Geordie, but it is often suggested.

Let's take a doomsday hypothetical where the Prem fails and say 4 clubs join some sort Frankenstein's monster URC-Prem disaster with the English talent concentrated in those sides. At very best I could foresee a brief bounce for England before another dive as we'd be losing so much talent from around the country that would just slip through to gaps to other sports. I think it would be the death knell longer term. 

Having a pathway of an academy system with as big a reach as possible (U18s), into a bridge into top tier senior rugby (be that Championship and/or A-league), into an actually good standard Premiership, into Prem clubs actually competing in the Champions Cup, into internationals is the aim. At the moment I think the academies are producing talent but the Premiership is trying to be the bridge and a top tier competition simultaneously, all on a budget. Which doesn't work. It's trying to do both and achieving neither. We then don't really have Prem clubs competing well in Europe. So selection and preparation for internationals comes from a substandard Premiership that's also stuck in limbo trying to be the Championship for young players.

Ending ringfencing would be a start. That would hopefully lead to a reduction in the number of meaningless, low quality games if there was genuine jeopardy of getting relegated. For it to really work we also need a properly funded Championship though. Ideally an actual A-league too. Then there can be a genuine pathway.

It would take time to reap the rewards in the same way it has taken time for the true extent of how poor the league and system now is to be laid bare though.

As things stand, we are watching players try to get up to speed on the job. Which is ugly. The development we are currently seeing for some should be done in a higher quality Premiership and Champions Cup. Not for England. The same as the development we are seeing some players do in a rubbish Premiership should be done in the Championship or an A-league.

Once again, I go away for the weekend and leave you all in charge of the England squad.  And once again England have screwed the pooch.  What are you all doing????  I have not watched the game yet.  Will do so tonight.  

Didn't get home until ~8:00pm last evening after playing in a Rugby tournament over the weekend and are still getting over my bumps and bruises.  We played 4 x 40 minute games just a 10 minute walk from the beach (was a 20 minute hobble for me).  The only incident of import was getting kicked in the head as I was diving for a ball on the ground by a lazy plonker on the other team who tried to hack it on at the same time.  My son, the inestimable Dave, evened the score a few minutes later by tackling him in a way the plonker won't procreate in the next few decades.  Proud Dad moment there.

The point of the story is where is that emotion, energy, desire, and yes, a few dirty tricks from this England group?  We haven't seen much from this group for quite a while now, not just the RWC de-preparation (is that a word?).  In a vast over-generalisation, who gives a damn?  Almost seems as if this group over the last 3 1/2 years have becomed accustomed to mediocrity.

I did sneak a peek at the Billy V. red card.  Should be dropped if for no other reason is it is an example to the rest of the team.  Along with the fly-half who shall not be named who recently received a red, no a yellow, maybe orange?  Mistakes get coached up.  Stupid gets a one way trip, long walk, short pier.

Rugby Analyst also favours trying Steward at 12. Thinks we should choose a pacy team, using the Quins game plan.

KC,

I agree on what you say...the loss of the A league irrirated me and the fact it hasn't been reinstated also irritates me.

I do think relegation really needs to come back into play despite my team being permanently in the hunt. I believe next season it will be back in play.

The championship is an interesting one. How to make the best use of it. Many prem teams do use it as a development league....the falcons have strong links with Rotherham and Doncaster and loan many of the kids there. Likewise Tigers and Nottingham.

Rugby Fan wrote:Rugby Analyst also favours trying Steward at 12. Thinks we should choose a pacy team, using the Quins game plan.

See Steward at 12. I'm not crazy

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Bring back Mike brown

Steward makes makes Mike Brown look like Christian Cullen. The problem with Steward is if he's not taking catches, he doesn't offer anything and his glaring weaknesses get highlighted. I honestly don't think he's good enough to be an international fullback.

This is a bit OTT Sgt, and you seem to get like this about a player after every few games.

Brown got his first caps for Eng and then got dropped for a long period of time before getting picked again. He was an experienced pro by then and a very good all round fullback. He still wasn't quick though and was constantly lambasted for it (maybe even by you). Brown also missed key try saving tackles at times, and was ripped into for defensive errors like Steward is now.

Being a fb is like being a goalie, easy for the fans to single out for the teams defensive mistakes.

Brown got dropped partly because of competition from Foden and Goode but mostly because in his early caps his stride pattern was too long and he lacked agility and acceleration.

His return to international rugby was less about being a seasoned pro (his positional and aerial play at fullback was exceptional right from his first games) than about having addressed his acceleration issues. He paid for Margot Wells to coach him out of his own pocket, and developed a much better running style for acceleration and agility. People say he was slow, but he picked up a lot of caps on the wing during the Lancaster era, and there was an England promo video (which, ironically enough, aired just after Eddie dropped him) which featured lots of other backs scoring tries (O! Those halcyon days) and Brown was on their shoulder in every single shot. Some of that is down to reading of the game, but you don’t end up in that position that frequently without being fast enough to keep up.

When Steward made his debut I recognised the same long stride pattern, and I’ve been saying ever since that he needs to address it. I hope Brown has given him Wells’s number, but if he has it hasn’t made enough of a difference yet.

carpet baboon wrote:Just for fun.
Does anyone else think Manu is not very good at defending at 12?
And is in the team due to what he was rather than what his abilities are now?

He ain't the only one.

yappysnap wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Bring back Mike brown

Steward makes makes Mike Brown look like Christian Cullen. The problem with Steward is if he's not taking catches, he doesn't offer anything and his glaring weaknesses get highlighted. I honestly don't think he's good enough to be an international fullback.

This is a bit OTT Sgt, and you seem to get like this about a player after every few games.

Brown got his first caps for Eng and then got dropped for a long period of time before getting picked again. He was an experienced pro by then and a very good all round fullback. He still wasn't quick though and was constantly lambasted for it (maybe even by you). Brown also missed key try saving tackles at times, and was ripped into for defensive errors like Steward is now.

Being a fb is like being a goalie, easy for the fans to single out for the teams defensive mistakes.

I feel like I've pointed that out with a lot of fullbacks now. Not just England ones either. I used to argue in Hogg's defence for many errors. Not all. Hoggy's front on tackling could be really poor at times for instance. But he was criticised for not stopping tries no fullback would stop on occasion due to reputation rather than actually being at fault.

It's a position that always comes in for flack when a team is performing badly as they will inevitably end up in isolated situations where the opposition score.

Even being a Tigers fan I've pointed out issues for Steward defensively. From when he debuted at Tigers when defending as the last man close to line he had a tendency to get flat footed in 2 v 1s. He wouldn't rush up to make a hit and force them to execute the pass or drift and try to push to the touchline. I'd never argue he's got a perfectly rounded game at 22-years-old.

The two tries he's supposedly at fault for on Saturday are chances all England fans would expect an English outside back to finish though. Ringrose has acres of space from a well executed move and cross field kick. It's a very easy finish. Likewise for Hansen's try. Ireland get round the outside of England's defence, Steward can't drift early because Keenan is running a support line on Byrne's shoulder, Byrne then throws a good pass giving Hansen tons of time to finish. If Daly doesn't finish either he would get eviscerated. Yet if Steward doesn't stop either the same happens. Which really makes no sense.

Just finished watching the first half.  England did indeed show they can play somewhat aggressively with ball in hand.  But they also showed they could be pish poor  The first Ireland try was on Stuart and or Genge, likely both. And the second on Steward.  But, at least with the second try there were also a few others who should have stopped the move before the kick.  What was Tuilagi thinking when he didn't off load to Lawes in the first half?  Not sure if Lawes was going to score or not, but at the minimum Lawes would have had another 10-20 yards.

There were at least (two come to mind) where England actually worked the ball to the midfield line then choose then to hoist another kick.
 If that is tactics, then I am Napoleon.

This was the better of the two halves?

Finished the match.  No words.

doctor_grey wrote:Finished the match.  No words.

I know. The first watch is always the best. Second is still really fun tho so don't be too downhearted.

D day for Billy and Owen then.

ON Owen Farrell two things:
1) on his disciplinary farce - you have to feel a bit sorry for the man at the centre of this - by all accounts a model pro off the field and this farrago must be very stressful
2) creativity - I have often slated him for his lack of creativity.  However Smith created no more and he is supposed to be able to unlock defenses.  this says to me it the system as much as Farrell at fault for the lack of creativity he shows.

Farrell and whoever ultimately makes decision on an overturned overturned overturned red card is in a crap position as all will be criticised whatever happens.
Hugely unsettling for player and England.

Add in Billy red card and it gets even messier.

All we can hope for is panel take an unbiased cool look at each instance seperately and makes decision based on what they see not what they read and hear from media circus surrounding all this.

As if England didn't have enough problems without all this anyway.

Roll on RWC...........2027

mountain man wrote:Farrell and whoever ultimately makes decision on an overturned overturned overturned red card is in a crap position as all will be criticised whatever happens.
Hugely unsettling for player and England.

Add in Billy red card and it gets even messier.

All we can hope for is panel take an unbiased cool look at each instance seperately and makes decision based on what they see not what they read and hear from media circus surrounding all this.

As if England didn't have enough problems without all this anyway.

Roll on RWC...........2027

Yeah not ideal however a ban is the correct decision. Hope those Aussies are kept away from decisions now. It was the statement they made about not wishing any criticism of the original red that got me!

Both stone wall reds, only a question of what level. Both mid I'd say but Vunipola will have the shorter ban (for a worse tackle).

Just before Vunapolas tackle, Peter OMahoney was carrying the ball and hit an England player in the face with his forearm in the tackle. Thought that was what they were going to review. I was worried it might have been an Ireland red, though his arm may have been tucked.

Collapse2005 wrote:Just before Vunapolas tackle, Peter OMahoney was carrying the ball and hit an England player in the face with his forearm in the tackle. Thought that was what they were going to review. I was worried it might have been an Ireland red, though his arm may have been tucked.

It wasn't tucked. Called it at the time. Issue with the citing process is its only any good if the media pick up on it. God knows what they do in the actual review.

Hopefully Farrell gets 6 match ban...Binny gets 3...

Both get sacked from the squad, bring back Mercer or Tom Willis and a replacement for farrell and end this circus.

Cannot see Farrell getting 6 match ban, 3-4 at most I'd say but whom knows.

Billy 2 matches I'm going for.

mountain man wrote:Cannot see Farrell getting 6 match ban, 3-4 at most I'd say but whom knows.

Billy 2 matches I'm going for.

Farrell will get 5 Id say Vunapola 2-3.

40000 tickets sold for the final big game at Twickenham before the world cup. Tremendous effort that and shows the public are well behind the lads before they go off to France.

Collapse2005 wrote:Just before Vunapolas tackle, Peter OMahoney was carrying the ball and hit an England player in the face with his forearm in the tackle. Thought that was what they were going to review. I was worried it might have been an Ireland red, though his arm may have been tucked.

His arm was clearly tucked on contact then he pushed the player away - perfectly legal. I saw the incident the time.

mountain man wrote:Cannot see Farrell getting 6 match ban, 3-4 at most I'd say but whom knows.

Billy 2 matches I'm going for.

Should be 6 according to the rules IMO

TJ wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Just before Vunapolas tackle, Peter OMahoney was carrying the ball and hit an England player in the face with his forearm in the tackle. Thought that was what they were going to review. I was worried it might have been an Ireland red, though his arm may have been tucked.

His arm was clearly tucked on contact then he pushed the player away - perfectly legal.  I saw the incident the time.

You are not an objective observer

TJ wrote:

mountain man wrote:Cannot see Farrell getting 6 match ban, 3-4 at most I'd say but whom knows.

Billy 2 matches I'm going for.

Should be 6 according to the rules IMO

But then again no-one saw his red being overturned by panel.

I'm just saying what I think will happen given the ongoing situation.