England - the build-up and winning the World Cup at a canter

First topic message reminder :

Here we go again.....

TJ wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Just before Vunapolas tackle, Peter OMahoney was carrying the ball and hit an England player in the face with his forearm in the tackle. Thought that was what they were going to review. I was worried it might have been an Ireland red, though his arm may have been tucked.

His arm was clearly tucked on contact then he pushed the player away - perfectly legal.  I saw the incident the time.

Gap between his arm and body. Straight to face.

mountain man wrote:

TJ wrote:

mountain man wrote:Cannot see Farrell getting 6 match ban, 3-4 at most I'd say but whom knows.

Billy 2 matches I'm going for.

Should be 6 according to the rules IMO

But then again no-one saw his red being overturned by panel.

I'm just saying what I think will happen given the ongoing situation.

Hard to see how it would be deemed low level to me.

TJ wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Just before Vunapolas tackle, Peter OMahoney was carrying the ball and hit an England player in the face with his forearm in the tackle. Thought that was what they were going to review. I was worried it might have been an Ireland red, though his arm may have been tucked.

His arm was clearly tucked on contact then he pushed the player away - perfectly legal.  I saw the incident the time.

Youre probably right. His arm was probably close enough to his body for it to be deemed ok. Im sure they reviewed in during the game and deemed it ok. POM should be more careful though.

I'd have thought 2 for Vunipola (assuming he's going to do the course). Vunipola has a great record, is a lovely guy who will be apologetic and there's no real reason not to get full mitigation. No one is reasonably going to argue with that.

Farrell - I give up even trying to guess. Sensible outcome is 6 weeks. Lucky outcome is that the appeal isn't quite worded right and he gets off on technicalities. Worst outcome is that they decide to make an example given the bad press, and he gets fed to ill tempered sea bass.

Collapse2005 wrote:

TJ wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Just before Vunapolas tackle, Peter OMahoney was carrying the ball and hit an England player in the face with his forearm in the tackle. Thought that was what they were going to review. I was worried it might have been an Ireland red, though his arm may have been tucked.

His arm was clearly tucked on contact then he pushed the player away - perfectly legal.  I saw the incident the time.

Youre probably right. His arm was probably close enough to his body for it to be deemed ok. Im sure they reviewed in during the game and deemed it ok. POM should be more careful though.

Haven't seen it so can't comment on the incident itself but I don't share your confidence that it was reviewed as the TMO must have spent a lot of time in the toilet, how else was there no challenge to the clearly forward pass for the last try?

Two words :

Ben Whitehouse

Ah that would explain a lot ...

Heaf wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

TJ wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Just before Vunapolas tackle, Peter OMahoney was carrying the ball and hit an England player in the face with his forearm in the tackle. Thought that was what they were going to review. I was worried it might have been an Ireland red, though his arm may have been tucked.

His arm was clearly tucked on contact then he pushed the player away - perfectly legal.  I saw the incident the time.

Youre probably right. His arm was probably close enough to his body for it to be deemed ok. Im sure they reviewed in during the game and deemed it ok. POM should be more careful though.

Haven't seen it so can't comment on the incident itself but I don't share your confidence that it was reviewed as the TMO must have spent a lot of time in the toilet, how else was there no challenge to the clearly forward pass for the last try?

If England were in the game at all they may have reviewed it but its one of those things, home crowd, Keith Earls 100 cap, biggest cheer of the match after Ben Earl celebrating himself and Irelands botched lineout, refs probably didnt want to spoil the party.

I am genuinely close to not caring what punishments they get.

Fed up with Borthwick and his boring BS, as well as the total lack of gameplan.

I'm going to Twickenham at the weekend. Not really sure why. Oh yeah, that's it. To be entertained. Have Fiji ever beaten us? Don't think so. First time for everything I guess. Will we even score a try through the backs??

So depressing.

I agree Mr Bounce
I've always said winning is priority but even I am fed up with this dire rugby. Winning when playing badly is one thing but losing and being terrible is hard to take.

FYI Fiji never beaten Eng in 15 a side.
Going by respective performances this weekend could change that

mountain man wrote:Two words :

Ben Whitehouse

He's not very good at spotting neck rolls either. Those rucks were a mess and both sides were forced to pull players out of the way using nefarious methods. In the good old days it was self regulated, fair play if you want to lying on the floor with your hands on the ball but prepare to have no skin on your back by the end of the match. Oh those were the days, could also throw a few punches and still stay on the pitch.

mountain man wrote:I agree Mr Bounce
I've always said winning is priority but even I am fed up with this dire rugby. Winning when playing badly is one thing but losing and being terrible is hard to take.

FYI Fiji never beaten Eng in 15 a side.
Going by respective performances this weekend could change that

The beauty about rugby is there are loads of different ways to do it. If we all try to play the same way it soon wouldn’t be entertaining. We want to be tactically flexible. Does the word ‘entertainment’ come into my thinking when I am planning? No. It is the best way to play. The best way to play and attack will end up being entertaining.

Re forward passes, are they not using the tech in the 'smart ball' to advise the ref / TMO if the pass is legal or otherwise? It seems to be all about momentum and initial movement now, not the direction the ball ends up travelling in?

demosthenes wrote:Re forward passes, are they not using the tech in the 'smart ball' to advise the ref / TMO if the pass is legal or otherwise?  It seems to be all about momentum and initial movement now, not the direction the ball ends up travelling in?

Not yet at the top level, as I understand it. It was trialled at the U20 RWC this year and I think worked well, but I'd be surprised if they adopted it for the full RWC this time around.

Fiji are 3 places below England and 3 pts in the rankings - a far from unbreachable gulf

TJ wrote:Fiji are 3 places below England and 3 pts in the rankings - a far from unbreachable gulf

They must really be fancying this. I am expecting us to lose; in fact be torn apart with no real answer to it.

As Andy Goode said on the recent Rugby Pod, the entire England squad look down, disinterested, downhearted and downright miserable. Must be a really happy place in camp.

TJ wrote:ON Owen Farrell two things:
1) on his disciplinary farce - you have to feel a bit sorry for the man at the centre of this - by all accounts a model pro off the field and this farrago must be very stressful
2) creativity - I have often slated him for his lack of creativity.  However Smith created no more and he is supposed to be able to unlock defenses.  this says to me it the system as much as Farrell at fault for the lack of creativity he shows.

I'm afraid I don't understand this line of thinking at all. His actions are the root cause of all this, take them away and there's no first hearing never mind a second.  And saying he's a model professional off the field is like defending someone's conduct in the office by saying they're really good on team-building courses.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

TJ wrote:ON Owen Farrell two things:
1) on his disciplinary farce - you have to feel a bit sorry for the man at the centre of this - by all accounts a model pro off the field and this farrago must be very stressful
2) creativity - I have often slated him for his lack of creativity.  However Smith created no more and he is supposed to be able to unlock defenses.  this says to me it the system as much as Farrell at fault for the lack of creativity he shows.

I'm afraid I don't understand this line of thinking at all. His actions are the root cause of all this, it starts and ends with him.  And saying he's a model professional off the field is like defending someone's conduct in the office by saying they're really good on team-building courses.

My point is not about the offense. Its about the utter mess that the rugby authorities have made of this and the stress that must have caused him. If the initial disciplinary had not made a perverse judgement and cleared him obviously incorrectly he could have just served his ban without too much fuss. Instead its become a social media circus, he has to go thru the appeal as well - he still does not know if he will be going to the world cup or not. I just feel a bit sorry for the man that he has been affected by the mess rugby authorities have made of this

If this was a first offence, I'd have some sympathy for him.

Reading Care's article on the BBC, it says this...

"The decision to send Farrell off was then overturned by an Independent Judicial Committee (IJC), which led to scrutiny of the new system, but Care says it will be a success for the sport."

Which is interesting because the only thing I'm seeing people scrutinise is the IJC system... I don't think I've seen a single negative comment about the bunker system, or the individual that reviewed Farrell's tackle.

I see that Paolo Odogwu has been included in Italy's World Cup squad. An exciting player whilst at Wasps who was overlooked by England and Eddie whilst in camp a couple of years ago.

We get Malins, a 15 playing on the wing. Hmmmm.

https://www.planetrugby.com/news/rugby-world-cup-pool-stage-referees-confirmed-jaco-peyper-officiates-opener

The referees have been confirmed for the pool stage. Raynal taking charge of England's opener, with Jonker re-refereeing from the TMO box.

Duty281 wrote:https://www.planetrugby.com/news/rugby-world-cup-pool-stage-referees-confirmed-jaco-peyper-officiates-opener

The referees have been confirmed for the pool stage. Raynal taking charge of England's opener, with Jonker re-refereeing from the TMO box.

We're doomed. I've lost count of the number of times Jonker has intervened in a way that a) costs England points or games and b) is at best TMO overreach (Lawes' foot [1], George's "knock on" against his own leg in the semi final) and at worst wrong (Steward's red against Ireland). I don't think he's biased, but he's too keen to get involved and calls things as "clear and obvious" when they are anything but.


[1] His foot was clearly in front of those of the other players - but what should have been checked and wasn't (as far as I could tell) was whether it was behind the back foot of the ruck.

Poorfour wrote:
We're doomed. I've lost count of the number of times Jonker has intervened in a way that a) costs England points or games and b) is at best TMO overreach (Lawes' foot [1], George's "knock on" against his own leg in the semi final) and at worst wrong (Steward's red against Ireland). I don't think he's biased, but he's too keen to get involved and calls things as "clear and obvious" when they are anything but.

As if the last two weeks weren't enough of a reason to be as clean as a whistle and give the refs nothing to grumble about, now there is that to add in. Agree that he seems a little more keen that most to get involved, and there's no excuses for the English lads not knowing this - it really ought to be left to the Argentinians to get his attention.

Big wrote:Reading Care's article on the BBC, it says this...

"The decision to send Farrell off was then overturned by an Independent Judicial Committee (IJC), which led to scrutiny of the new system, but Care says it will be a success for the sport."

Which is interesting because the only thing I'm seeing people scrutinise is the IJC system...    I don't think I've seen a single negative comment about the bunker system, or the individual that reviewed Farrell's tackle.

I quite agree, I don't think the current Farrell issue has anything to do with the use or not of the bunker system. It has everything to do with the very odd decision by the appeal panel.

Why on why do we bother with french refs, has there ever been a good one?

As for tmos there doesn't seem to be any decent ones out there that give you confidence that the laws are going to be enforced fairly and consistently.

Jonker is the nightmare scenario. Sorry but he's crap and biased against England. Far too many incidents demonstrate that over the years.
Often little things which are never picked up for opposition but he'll stop play and alert ref to anything an Eng player has done.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Heaf wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

TJ wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Just before Vunapolas tackle, Peter OMahoney was carrying the ball and hit an England player in the face with his forearm in the tackle. Thought that was what they were going to review. I was worried it might have been an Ireland red, though his arm may have been tucked.

His arm was clearly tucked on contact then he pushed the player away - perfectly legal.  I saw the incident the time.

Youre probably right. His arm was probably close enough to his body for it to be deemed ok. Im sure they reviewed in during the game and deemed it ok. POM should be more careful though.

Haven't seen it so can't comment on the incident itself but I don't share your confidence that it was reviewed as the TMO must have spent a lot of time in the toilet, how else was there no challenge to the clearly forward pass for the last try?

If England were in the game at all they may have reviewed it but its one of those things, home crowd, Keith Earls 100 cap, biggest cheer of the match after Ben Earl celebrating himself and Irelands botched lineout, refs probably didnt want to spoil the party.

You could be right - but either way it's a poor show, incompetence or ignoring the laws when you feel like it - not the best look for a TMO ... think he must have learned from Jonker ...

mountain man wrote:Jonker is the nightmare scenario. Sorry but he's crap and biased against England. Far too many incidents demonstrate that over the years.
Often little things which are never picked up for opposition but he'll stop play and alert ref to anything an Eng player has done.

It is almost unbelievable that they'd let him loose on England again - then I remember it's World Rugby ...

Poorfour wrote:

Duty281 wrote:https://www.planetrugby.com/news/rugby-world-cup-pool-stage-referees-confirmed-jaco-peyper-officiates-opener

The referees have been confirmed for the pool stage. Raynal taking charge of England's opener, with Jonker re-refereeing from the TMO box.

We're doomed. I've lost count of the number of times Jonker has intervened in a way that a) costs England points or games and b) is at best TMO overreach (Lawes' foot [1], George's "knock on" against his own leg in the semi final) and at worst wrong (Steward's red against Ireland). I don't think he's biased, but he's too keen to get involved and calls things as "clear and obvious" when they are anything but.


[1] His foot was clearly in front of those of the other players - but what should have been checked and wasn't (as far as I could tell) was whether it was behind the back foot of the ruck.

Think he was also the one that told the ref that an Aussie try was fine when the last pass was 100% obviously forwards - you could hear the disbelief in the ref's voice when he saw it onscreen and then overruled Jonker ...  that alone should have rung alarm bells in WR

Just so I understand England fans, world rugby is actively against you???
(Irish, Welsh and Scottish fans buy as much tinfoil as you can I think I have found some buyers)

4 weeks for Farrell. Includes the Ireland game

4 matches. Reduced after he admitted it, remorse and good character....

Wtf. 1 he appealed. 2 its a repeat offence so shouldn't have impacted the ban. 3 so what?

And the Ireland game was somehow counted so its a 3 game ban. Completely bonkers.

Ah Wigglesworth has said there's no tackle indiscipline in the side and it's just been blown up because it's Farrell. He going to be amazed when he watches the game vs Ireland while wondering where Billy was in the 2nd half. Those queues for half time pints are murder.

carpet baboon wrote:4 weeks for Farrell. Includes the Ireland game

Probably fair enough really

should be 6. Its a farce to give him any reduction

As I thought 4 games.

Whether it's fair or right is another matter but it's what I expected.
Any word on Billy?

Ridiculous. I agree with TJ. I think taking a KC into a disciplinary hearing should also be banned. It's not a legal case.

Any news on Billy yet?

Collapse2005 wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:4 weeks for Farrell. Includes the Ireland game

Probably fair enough really

I’m okay with that. Hopefully it stops some non-stop talking about him now.

OK, so the new appeals panel clearly received the message most of the Rugby world were sending. It's a shame because most of the noise would have settled down by now if that first appeals panel had maintained the ban. I guess the punishment is OK, but doesn't feel satisfactory given the past week. Glad it is out of the way.

What about Billy V.?

carpet baboon wrote:Just so I understand England fans, world rugby is actively against you???
(Irish, Welsh and Scottish fans buy as much tinfoil as you can I think I have found some buyers)

Just coz we're paranoid don't mean they ain't out to get us

Mr Bounce wrote:I am genuinely close to not caring what punishments they get.

Fed up with Borthwick and his boring BS, as well as the total lack of gameplan.

I'm going to Twickenham at the weekend. Not really sure why. Oh yeah, that's it. To be entertained. Have Fiji ever beaten us? Don't think so. First time for everything I guess. Will we even score a try through the backs??

So depressing.

I will be home over the weekend and we were thinking about going to the Fiji match as well. Can you imagine in any other RWC year that the last pre-RWC match is not nearly a full house at Twickenham? Maybe some of the crowd are being cannibalised by the match the day before?

doctor_grey wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:I am genuinely close to not caring what punishments they get.

Fed up with Borthwick and his boring BS, as well as the total lack of gameplan.

I'm going to Twickenham at the weekend. Not really sure why. Oh yeah, that's it. To be entertained. Have Fiji ever beaten us? Don't think so. First time for everything I guess. Will we even score a try through the backs??

So depressing.

I will be home over the weekend and we were thinking about going to the Fiji match as well.  Can you imagine in any other RWC year that the last pre-RWC match is not nearly a full house at Twickenham?  Maybe some of the crowd are being cannibalised by the match the day before?

From memory, the crowds in 2007 were pretty sparse as well.

doctor_grey wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:I am genuinely close to not caring what punishments they get.

Fed up with Borthwick and his boring BS, as well as the total lack of gameplan.

I'm going to Twickenham at the weekend. Not really sure why. Oh yeah, that's it. To be entertained. Have Fiji ever beaten us? Don't think so. First time for everything I guess. Will we even score a try through the backs??

So depressing.

I will be home over the weekend and we were thinking about going to the Fiji match as well.  Can you imagine in any other RWC year that the last pre-RWC match is not nearly a full house at Twickenham?  Maybe some of the crowd are being cannibalised by the match the day before?

Maybe some think being cannibalised is preferable to watching England at the moment .... annoyingly it's not on Prime either.

Train strikes to be fair or there'd be even more people at Fiji. Its one of those times where we all want to say we were there. Like when 70000 Boro fans were at the match in Hartlepool before liquidation.

Feel very sorry for England fans - not the build up that you want.

I fully expect that England will better for Faz sitting out though. They will have to get the ball through the hands as Smith can't do the 'kick the @arse off the ball' thing that Borthwick seems to want. England's kick chase has not been good enough anyway and that's the root of a number of problems. So I honestly think that this will turn out better for you.

Losing Billy would be dreadful, though.

Heaf wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:I am genuinely close to not caring what punishments they get.

Fed up with Borthwick and his boring BS, as well as the total lack of gameplan.

I'm going to Twickenham at the weekend. Not really sure why. Oh yeah, that's it. To be entertained. Have Fiji ever beaten us? Don't think so. First time for everything I guess. Will we even score a try through the backs??

So depressing.

I will be home over the weekend and we were thinking about going to the Fiji match as well.  Can you imagine in any other RWC year that the last pre-RWC match is not nearly a full house at Twickenham?  Maybe some of the crowd are being cannibalised by the match the day before?

Maybe some think being cannibalised is preferable to watching England at the moment ....  annoyingly it's not on Prime either.

England v Fiji is on Amazon Prime. Coverage starts at 14:55 for the 15:15 kick off.

Whether you'll want to watch it is another matter!

The South Africa nz game is on sky.

3 games for Billy.

Reduced to 2 if he goes to tackle school.