Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[ralphjohn69]

First topic message reminder :

It's not logic. Most pot 4 teams are no worse than Rangers. If Rangers were the worst ever pot 4 team last year, what makes them any better now?

Because instead of playing another Pot 3 team they will be playing a Pot 4 team, who will probably be worse than a Pot 3 team so they have a better chance of getting 3rd, although it's obviously not guaranteed. You really don't help yourself when you post about football....

[JAS]

I suppose it was inevitable Cruella went. The Change candidate going ‘back to the future’ was a bit more of a surprise though.

[navyblueshorts]

I suppose it was inevitable Cruella went. The Change candidate going ‘back to the future’ was a bit more of a surprise though.

All 'Deckchairs on the Titanic'. Dead Party walking...

[super_realist]

...You're in danger of sounding like that lunatic ex Labour MP Chris Williamson, you can't rationalise Hamas attacks on innocent civilians as payback for "75 years".

Same old, same old. I'll say again for the hard of hearing/understanding - you cannot isolate the Hamas brutality from the wider situation in Israel/Palestine. You can exactly rationalise what Hamas did on that basis. Justify? No, but ignoring/failing to understand the background is just putting your head in the sand. The situation won't change unless that's fixed and the Palestinian grievances are properly addressed.

You cannot rationalise the direct attack on innocent civilians on either side. Sorry you think that is what constitutes proportional response.
Remember there was a ceasefire in place, which Hamas broke. They didn't have to target civilians and if they want to stop being pounded in retaliation then they can return the hostages.
Ps, the main aim of Hamas is the destruction of the Israeli state and expulsion of all residents, so good luck finding any accord with that "grievance"

[super_realist]

I suppose it was inevitable Cruella went. The Change candidate going ‘back to the future’ was a bit more of a surprise though.

All 'Deckchairs on the Titanic'. Dead Party walking...

Dead party incoming too. Really not very optimistic for the next 10 years of the UK.
Currently it's like two flies fighting over ownership of a steaming dog turd.

To the credit of Starmer, at least he's rid of Corbyn, Abbot and the absolutely disgusting Chris Williamson.

[navyblueshorts]

...You're in danger of sounding like that lunatic ex Labour MP Chris Williamson, you can't rationalise Hamas attacks on innocent civilians as payback for "75 years".

Same old, same old. I'll say again for the hard of hearing/understanding - you cannot isolate the Hamas brutality from the wider situation in Israel/Palestine. You can exactly rationalise what Hamas did on that basis. Justify? No, but ignoring/failing to understand the background is just putting your head in the sand. The situation won't change unless that's fixed and the Palestinian grievances are properly addressed.

You cannot rationalise the direct attack on innocent civilians on either side. Sorry you think that is what constitutes proportional response.
Remember there was a ceasefire in place, which Hamas broke. They didn't have to target civilians and if they want to stop being pounded in retaliation then they can return the hostages.
Ps, the main aim of Hamas is the destruction of the Israeli state and expulsion of all residents, so good luck finding any accord with that "grievance"

*sigh* I did not state that I thought the massacre by Hamas was a "proportional response". At all. What I was/am trying to ask you to understand is where that behaviour might just have come from.

Ceasefire? You mean the one that allows the IDF, police and Israeli settlers more or less complete impunity to imprison, evict, murder Palestinians? That one? You mean the one that ghettoises (pretty ironic, that one) the Palestinians? That one? You mean the one that allows Israel to practice apartheid with impunity? That one? You mean the one whose conditions/parameters are set entirely by Israel and the USA? That one? Yeah, right.

Hamas's position re. Israel won't/can't stand. However, it's come about because of Israel's historic mistreatment of the Palestinians (thousand and thousands, I might add, who became Israeli citizens on May 15th, 1948) and the perception/reality that no-one, at all, is looking out for them, which is pretty much the case.

[navyblueshorts]

I suppose it was inevitable Cruella went. The Change candidate going ‘back to the future’ was a bit more of a surprise though.

All 'Deckchairs on the Titanic'. Dead Party walking...

Dead party incoming too. Really not very optimistic for the next 10 years of the UK.
Currently it's like two flies fighting over ownership of a steaming dog turd.

To the credit of Starmer, at least he's rid of Corbyn, Abbot and the absolutely disgusting Chris Williamson.

I'm not sure I think the likely incomers are dead in the same way, but I think this country is ripe for a change away from the usual suspects. Would help if Starmer made a manifesto promise that we'd bin the FPTP electoral system used in GEs etc.

[McLaren]

Navy

I often wonder if the most damaging referendum we had was the PR one. The way I remember it even PR supporters voted against it because it wasn't the ideal form. Imagine that our main constitutional issue in 2023 was fixing an imperfect PR system?

[McLaren]

Super

What point are you trying to make? Because your posts read like you are hairs breadth away from saying you think Israel are giving the Palestinians what they deserve.

[JAS]

…to help you out with Macs question Supes…If the SNP started a campaign of bombing England, you’d be seen as fair game in any English retaliation.

…does that help??

[ralphjohn69]

…to help you out with Macs question Supes…If the SNP started a campaign of bombing England, you’d be seen as fair game in any English retaliation.

…does that help??

Why would the English bomb Norway in retaliation?

[Galted]

…to help you out with Macs question Supes…If the SNP started a campaign of bombing England, you’d be seen as fair game in any English retaliation.

…does that help??

Why would the English bomb Norway in retaliation?  

Because the MoD contract's more than likely been handed to a company set up last week by Tory donor with previous experience in breeding horses and selling antiques.

[navyblueshorts]

Navy

I often wonder if the most damaging referendum we had was the PR one. The way I remember it even PR supporters voted against it because it wasn't the ideal form. Imagine that our main constitutional issue in 2023 was fixing an imperfect PR system?

The Tories, who were, lets not forget it, in coalition w/ the LibDems at the time!) allowed the LibDems the sop of the PR referendum, and then spent the entire time actively campaigning against/torpedoing it.

Personally, I think the voting system is a major issue, and right at the top of the list. Too many feel, justifiably, disenfranchised and political engagement is cratering. Hence, we get s**t politicians/Governments where those on a tiny voting share of the population get to screw us all over.

[Duty281]

There wasn't a PR referendum in 2011. It was a referendum on switching to AV, not PR, and not even STV (they sound like television companies when I list them like that).

AV is a terrible system, no better than the current system of FPTP. Arguably it's worse than FPTP.

The Electoral Reform Society showed that an AV system in the 2015 GE would have actually increased the Tories majority, as they would have won 337 seats instead of the 331 they did win under FPTP, thereby making it less proportional than FPTP. And AV would have increased the seats gained by the grossly underrepresented trio of LD/UKIP/Green by one. One measly seat.

STV would be a better system, but PR would be the fairest of them all.

But we're very unlikely to get change. Why would the Tories and Labour, who owe their very powerful existence to the FPTP system, sign up for a referendum on PR, or even STV, that could possibly eradicate them as parties? It would be madness, from their perspective.

Labour in 1997 lied in their manifesto (shock!) when they wrote: "We are committed to a referendum on the voting system for the House of Commons. An independent commission on voting systems will be appointed early to recommend a proportional alternative to the first-past-the-post system." Then nothing happened. Labour supported AV in the 2010 manifesto, but didn't actually adopt a party position on it when the 2011 referendum came around. The LDs, of course, dropped their PR pledge, along with lots of other things, during the 2010 negotiations.

This is a good read on how NZ got PR - https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/how-did-new-zealand-get-proportional-representation/

[navyblueshorts]

There wasn't a PR referendum in 2011. It was a referendum on switching to AV, not PR, and not even STV (they sound like television companies when I list them like that).

AV is a terrible system, no better than the current system of FPTP. Arguably it's worse than FPTP.

The Electoral Reform Society showed that an AV system in the 2015 GE would have actually increased the Tories majority, as they would have won 337 seats instead of the 331 they did win under FPTP, thereby making it less proportional than FPTP. And AV would have increased the seats gained by the grossly underrepresented trio of LD/UKIP/Green by one. One measly seat.

STV would be a better system, but PR would be the fairest of them all.

But we're very unlikely to get change. Why would the Tories and Labour, who owe their very powerful existence to the FPTP system, sign up for a referendum on PR, or even STV, that could possibly eradicate them as parties? It would be madness, from their perspective.

Labour in 1997 lied in their manifesto (shock!) when they wrote: "We are committed to a referendum on the voting system for the House of Commons. An independent commission on voting systems will be appointed early to recommend a proportional alternative to the first-past-the-post system." Then nothing happened. Labour supported AV in the 2010 manifesto, but didn't actually adopt a party position on it when the 2011 referendum came around. The LDs, of course, dropped their PR pledge, along with lots of other things, during the 2010 negotiations.

This is a good read on how NZ got PR - https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/how-did-new-zealand-get-proportional-representation/

Ta for this.

It's funny, isn't it? We're expected to use manifestos etc as part of our decision making on whom represents us, but, shock horror, it's all lies. No wonder we're in such deep doo-doo. No wonder people aren't interested. How does one know a politician is lying? His/her mouth is open...

[Duty281]

Very true, unfortunately.

[JAS]

Good article re NZ Duty.

As an electorate we are pretty poor and basically deserve what get. Yes there are manifestos created that are supposed to guide us. Let’s be honest, on an electorate of 40 odd million, what proportion of those will actually open any manifesto, never mind read one? I’d guess less than 1% and how many of those would read any parts of more than one??

Anyway why do we need manifestos when we have fantastic newspapers that give us such balanced content that saves us the inconvenience of trawling through dull documents?? :-p

[navyblueshorts]

Good article re NZ Duty.

As an electorate we are pretty poor and basically deserve what get. Yes there are manifestos created that are supposed to guide us. Let’s be honest, on an electorate of 40 odd million, what proportion of those will actually open any manifesto, never mind read one? I’d guess less than 1% and how many of those would read any parts of more than one??

Anyway why do we need manifestos when we have fantastic newspapers that give us such balanced content that saves us the inconvenience of trawling through dull documents?? :-p

Yeah, and parents/grandparents who've always voted one way or t'other, so therefore we do just the same. And, of course, we lap up the narratives of 'Tory scum' and 'Labour commies' and vote accordingly. And our friends who tell us what's what, having got their info from really authoritative, balanced sources such as FaceBook etc....

Didn't the Jam's 'Going Underground' once say it so well? An early verse saying "the public gets what the public wants", before a later, scathing, reprise turns it around to "the public wants what the public gets"...

[McLaren]

Said it for years, England is a right wing nation. I think they do get the governments they want. Certainly Brexit went their way.

[Duty281]

Said it for years, England is a right wing nation. I think they do get the governments they want. Certainly Brexit went their way.

We haven't had a right-wing government for decades, so I don't think we do get the governments we want.

[JAS]

Said it for years, England is a right wing nation. I think they do get the governments they want. Certainly Brexit went their way.

We haven't had a right-wing government for decades, so I don't think we do get the governments we want.

Yeah, left wing wokery just oozes out of all the current government mouthpieces.

I would also suggest the vast majority of ordinary people wouldn’t stand for anything further right than this current shower.

To be fair I’m struggling to determine exactly if it’s right ideology, incompetence or the perfect storm of both together that’s got us into this mess.

[Duty281]

Said it for years, England is a right wing nation. I think they do get the governments they want. Certainly Brexit went their way.

We haven't had a right-wing government for decades, so I don't think we do get the governments we want.

Yeah, left wing wokery just oozes out of all the current government mouthpieces.

I would also suggest the vast majority of ordinary people wouldn’t stand for anything further right than this current shower.

To be fair I’m struggling to determine exactly if it’s right ideology, incompetence or the perfect storm of both together that’s got us into this mess.

Didn't say they were left-wing either. They're just a centrist government, an extension of Blairism, epitomised perfectly by the return of Cameron. Interventionist, big government, high tax, mass immigration, socially liberal.

If you think this is right-wing ideology, that's astonishing. It's so far removed from anything representing right-wing government, that you may as well term them left-wing Corbynites (because that would be just as inaccurate).

I'd also add there's about 15 million voters out there who definitely want something more right-wing than this current shower.

[JAS]

Said it for years, England is a right wing nation. I think they do get the governments they want. Certainly Brexit went their way.

We haven't had a right-wing government for decades, so I don't think we do get the governments we want.

Yeah, left wing wokery just oozes out of all the current government mouthpieces.

I would also suggest the vast majority of ordinary people wouldn’t stand for anything further right than this current shower.

To be fair I’m struggling to determine exactly if it’s right ideology, incompetence or the perfect storm of both together that’s got us into this mess.

Didn't say they were left-wing either. They're just a centrist government, an extension of Blairism, epitomised perfectly by the return of Cameron. Interventionist, big government, high tax, mass immigration, socially liberal.

If you think this is right-wing ideology, that's astonishing. It's so far removed from anything representing right-wing government, that you may as well term them left-wing Corbynites (because that would be just as inaccurate).

I'd also add there's about 15 million voters out there who definitely want something more right-wing than this current shower.

Tax cutting for the well off to point where it causes economic meltdown is NOT centrist,
squeezing public sector pay whilst being laissez-faire about executive pay is NOT centrist
Letting the market help utility companies empty the wallets of most householders is NOT centrist
Starving key public services of essential funds is NOT centrist
and demonising collective bargaining in trying to resolve the inevitable disputes from aforementioned pay squeezes is NOT centrist.
Promoting racist and minority bashing responses to various cultural issues is NOT centrist.
Interested to understand where you figure of 15 million comes from?? 7 years on is that the 17.2 minus those that have popped it plus those that might have changed their minds? If you are I’d advance the view that you may have underestimated the latter. Just because some minorities are particularly loud and shouty, it doesn’t naturally follow that they are the majority.

[Duty281]

Said it for years, England is a right wing nation. I think they do get the governments they want. Certainly Brexit went their way.

We haven't had a right-wing government for decades, so I don't think we do get the governments we want.

Yeah, left wing wokery just oozes out of all the current government mouthpieces.

I would also suggest the vast majority of ordinary people wouldn’t stand for anything further right than this current shower.

To be fair I’m struggling to determine exactly if it’s right ideology, incompetence or the perfect storm of both together that’s got us into this mess.

Didn't say they were left-wing either. They're just a centrist government, an extension of Blairism, epitomised perfectly by the return of Cameron. Interventionist, big government, high tax, mass immigration, socially liberal.

If you think this is right-wing ideology, that's astonishing. It's so far removed from anything representing right-wing government, that you may as well term them left-wing Corbynites (because that would be just as inaccurate).

I'd also add there's about 15 million voters out there who definitely want something more right-wing than this current shower.

Tax cutting for the well off to point where it causes economic meltdown is NOT centrist,
squeezing public sector pay whilst being laissez-faire about executive pay is NOT centrist
Letting the market help utility companies empty the wallets of most householders is NOT centrist
Starving key public services of essential funds is NOT centrist
and demonising collective bargaining  in trying to resolve the inevitable disputes from aforementioned pay squeezes is NOT centrist.
Promoting racist and minority bashing responses to various cultural issues is NOT centrist.
Interested to understand where you figure of 15 million comes from?? 7 years on is that the 17.2 minus those that have popped it plus those that might have changed their minds? If you are I’d advance the view that you may have underestimated the latter. Just because some minorities are particularly loud and shouty, it doesn’t naturally follow that they are the majority.

I mean, I could go largely the same way.

Increasing the tax burden to the highest since WW2 is NOT right-wing.
Increasing corporation tax is NOT right-wing.
Running net migration at the highest in the country's history is NOT right-wing.
Celebrating Pride Month is NOT right-wing.
Putting faith in renewable energy and backing Net Zero is NOT right-wing.
Replacing Braverman with Cameron is NOT right-wing.
Cutting the police force is NOT right-wing.
Expanding the Civil Service is NOT right-wing. etc. etc.

I agree that tax cutting is not centrist, which is why the centrist Tory Party turfed out Truss, who was only backed by about 1/3 of Tory MPs.
Median public sector earnings are 12% higher than those in the private sector.
The Tories put over £30bn into energy support.
One of the first things Johnson did after getting elected in 2019 was putting an extra £34bn into the NHS. Other public services are suffering, true enough, because we're paying for the disaster of lockdown (up to £400bn!).

15 million is roughly the figure that voted for the Tories and the (as it was then known) Brexit Party in 2019. Those people, in the main, don't want Net Zero, high immigration, high taxes or a big government. They want something right-wing, and certainly something that is to the right of the current offering.

[dynamark]

Evening all long time no see,
Same posters having similar discussions by the look,My golfing days are over until our NHS fits me another new hip hopefully this winter, could pay but essentially have paid over last 50 years.I was only saying recently that Starmer has got his party to keep their views quiet and had some party discipline and then they revert back to type over Gaza. Fact is we can say what we like but the only ones with influence are UN US and some of the middle east neighbours.
Best wishes to all

[JAS]

Evening all long time no see,
Same posters having similar discussions by the look,My golfing days are over until our NHS fits me another new hip hopefully this winter, could pay but essentially have paid over last 50 years.I was only saying recently that Starmer has got his party to keep their views quiet and had some party discipline and then they revert back to type over Gaza. Fact is we can say what we like but the only ones with influence are  UN US and some of the middle east neighbours.
Best wishes to all

Ah good to hear from you Dyna, sorry to hear you're struggling with your hip. When you say 'another' was it yourself that got one done a couple of years ago?

[JAS]

Said it for years, England is a right wing nation. I think they do get the governments they want. Certainly Brexit went their way.

We haven't had a right-wing government for decades, so I don't think we do get the governments we want.

Yeah, left wing wokery just oozes out of all the current government mouthpieces.

I would also suggest the vast majority of ordinary people wouldn’t stand for anything further right than this current shower.

To be fair I’m struggling to determine exactly if it’s right ideology, incompetence or the perfect storm of both together that’s got us into this mess.

Didn't say they were left-wing either. They're just a centrist government, an extension of Blairism, epitomised perfectly by the return of Cameron. Interventionist, big government, high tax, mass immigration, socially liberal.

If you think this is right-wing ideology, that's astonishing. It's so far removed from anything representing right-wing government, that you may as well term them left-wing Corbynites (because that would be just as inaccurate).

I'd also add there's about 15 million voters out there who definitely want something more right-wing than this current shower.

Tax cutting for the well off to point where it causes economic meltdown is NOT centrist,
squeezing public sector pay whilst being laissez-faire about executive pay is NOT centrist
Letting the market help utility companies empty the wallets of most householders is NOT centrist
Starving key public services of essential funds is NOT centrist
and demonising collective bargaining  in trying to resolve the inevitable disputes from aforementioned pay squeezes is NOT centrist.
Promoting racist and minority bashing responses to various cultural issues is NOT centrist.
Interested to understand where you figure of 15 million comes from?? 7 years on is that the 17.2 minus those that have popped it plus those that might have changed their minds? If you are I’d advance the view that you may have underestimated the latter. Just because some minorities are particularly loud and shouty, it doesn’t naturally follow that they are the majority.

I mean, I could go largely the same way.

Increasing the tax burden to the highest since WW2 is NOT right-wing.
Increasing corporation tax is NOT right-wing.
Running net migration at the highest in the country's history is NOT right-wing.
Celebrating Pride Month is NOT right-wing.
Putting faith in renewable energy and backing Net Zero is NOT right-wing.
Replacing Braverman with Cameron is NOT right-wing.
Cutting the police force is NOT right-wing.
Expanding the Civil Service is NOT right-wing. etc. etc.

I agree that tax cutting is not centrist, which is why the centrist Tory Party turfed out Truss, who was only backed by about 1/3 of Tory MPs.
Median public sector earnings are 12% higher than those in the private sector.
The Tories put over £30bn into energy support.
One of the first things Johnson did after getting elected in 2019 was putting an extra £34bn into the NHS. Other public services are suffering, true enough, because we're paying for the disaster of lockdown (up to £400bn!).

15 million is roughly the figure that voted for the Tories and the (as it was then known) Brexit Party in 2019. Those people, in the main, don't want Net Zero, high immigration, high taxes or a big government. They want something right-wing, and certainly something that is to the right of the current offering.

Interesting and honest take, in the same spirit I might be digging a bit of hole in my argument here but increasing the tax burden when public services are shredded IS a logical sensible move in theory (not sure why it's not showing in practice - other than Baroness Moan fretting over the colour scheme of her new yacht)
They don't "run" net migration, they have very little actual practical control over it, no country does (...and pretending that shipping a couple of hundred off to Rwanda will solve the problem is divisive right wing distractionary lunacy at it's best)
Points 4 & 5?? Dearie me!! I don't celebrate Pride week to be fair but to call it out as something the right should not be doing? Same with Net zero, I'm not convinced the whole climate issue is as bad as many make out but a sensible steer in a greener direction IS the way forward. Big oil will quite happily sacrifice the planet at the altar of their profit margins, it needs someone to say actually humankind needs to start changing course
Replacing Braverman? I don't think it matters what wing of the party she associates with, she was a disruptive gobby sociopath undermining her leader...and as for David lets have 10 years of austerity Cameron, more right than centrist
The police thing is a bit of a puzzler and where they've been exposed as talking contradictory Love sacks, yes they cut 20000, now they're saying they've replaced them (obviously lowered costs by forcing out experienced officers then recruiting greenhorns). As 2 of my partners sons can confirm (as they are police officers in 2 different forces) - new officers being recruited now are NOT being trained properly and I've been regaled of examples of new officers clutching a comfort blanket while their experienced colleague deals with an aggressive suspect on their own. Again, that harks back to my earlier quote about whether its right wing or incompetence, that example exposes the incompetence of the way the Home office has been led. The headline seeking sociopath and her small boat obsession was completely blind to the utter mess police forces are in.
What part of the civil service has expanded?

[Soul Requiem]

Said it for years, England is a right wing nation. I think they do get the governments they want. Certainly Brexit went their way.

We haven't had a right-wing government for decades, so I don't think we do get the governments we want.

Yeah, left wing wokery just oozes out of all the current government mouthpieces.

I would also suggest the vast majority of ordinary people wouldn’t stand for anything further right than this current shower.

To be fair I’m struggling to determine exactly if it’s right ideology, incompetence or the perfect storm of both together that’s got us into this mess.

Didn't say they were left-wing either. They're just a centrist government, an extension of Blairism, epitomised perfectly by the return of Cameron. Interventionist, big government, high tax, mass immigration, socially liberal.

If you think this is right-wing ideology, that's astonishing. It's so far removed from anything representing right-wing government, that you may as well term them left-wing Corbynites (because that would be just as inaccurate).

I'd also add there's about 15 million voters out there who definitely want something more right-wing than this current shower.

If we were in the 70's then you may have a point but we aren't. The centre and right have shifted to the left since then.

[Duty281]

Said it for years, England is a right wing nation. I think they do get the governments they want. Certainly Brexit went their way.

We haven't had a right-wing government for decades, so I don't think we do get the governments we want.

Yeah, left wing wokery just oozes out of all the current government mouthpieces.

I would also suggest the vast majority of ordinary people wouldn’t stand for anything further right than this current shower.

To be fair I’m struggling to determine exactly if it’s right ideology, incompetence or the perfect storm of both together that’s got us into this mess.

Didn't say they were left-wing either. They're just a centrist government, an extension of Blairism, epitomised perfectly by the return of Cameron. Interventionist, big government, high tax, mass immigration, socially liberal.

If you think this is right-wing ideology, that's astonishing. It's so far removed from anything representing right-wing government, that you may as well term them left-wing Corbynites (because that would be just as inaccurate).

I'd also add there's about 15 million voters out there who definitely want something more right-wing than this current shower.

Tax cutting for the well off to point where it causes economic meltdown is NOT centrist,
squeezing public sector pay whilst being laissez-faire about executive pay is NOT centrist
Letting the market help utility companies empty the wallets of most householders is NOT centrist
Starving key public services of essential funds is NOT centrist
and demonising collective bargaining  in trying to resolve the inevitable disputes from aforementioned pay squeezes is NOT centrist.
Promoting racist and minority bashing responses to various cultural issues is NOT centrist.
Interested to understand where you figure of 15 million comes from?? 7 years on is that the 17.2 minus those that have popped it plus those that might have changed their minds? If you are I’d advance the view that you may have underestimated the latter. Just because some minorities are particularly loud and shouty, it doesn’t naturally follow that they are the majority.

I mean, I could go largely the same way.

Increasing the tax burden to the highest since WW2 is NOT right-wing.
Increasing corporation tax is NOT right-wing.
Running net migration at the highest in the country's history is NOT right-wing.
Celebrating Pride Month is NOT right-wing.
Putting faith in renewable energy and backing Net Zero is NOT right-wing.
Replacing Braverman with Cameron is NOT right-wing.
Cutting the police force is NOT right-wing.
Expanding the Civil Service is NOT right-wing. etc. etc.

I agree that tax cutting is not centrist, which is why the centrist Tory Party turfed out Truss, who was only backed by about 1/3 of Tory MPs.
Median public sector earnings are 12% higher than those in the private sector.
The Tories put over £30bn into energy support.
One of the first things Johnson did after getting elected in 2019 was putting an extra £34bn into the NHS. Other public services are suffering, true enough, because we're paying for the disaster of lockdown (up to £400bn!).

15 million is roughly the figure that voted for the Tories and the (as it was then known) Brexit Party in 2019. Those people, in the main, don't want Net Zero, high immigration, high taxes or a big government. They want something right-wing, and certainly something that is to the right of the current offering.

Interesting and honest take, in the same spirit I might be digging a bit of hole in my argument here but increasing the tax burden when public services are shredded IS a logical sensible move in theory (not sure why it's not showing in practice - other than Baroness Moan fretting over the colour scheme of her new yacht)
They don't "run" net migration, they have very little actual practical control over it, no country does (...and pretending that shipping a couple of hundred off to Rwanda will solve the problem is divisive right wing distractionary lunacy at it's best)
Points 4 & 5?? Dearie me!! I don't celebrate Pride week to be fair but to call it out as something the right should not be doing? Same with Net zero, I'm not convinced the whole climate issue is as bad as many make out but a sensible steer in a greener direction IS the way forward. Big oil will quite happily sacrifice the planet at the altar of their profit margins, it needs someone to say actually humankind needs to start changing course
Replacing Braverman? I don't think it matters what wing of the party she associates with, she was a disruptive gobby sociopath undermining her leader...and as for David lets have 10 years of austerity Cameron, more right than centrist
The police thing is a bit of a puzzler and where they've been exposed as talking contradictory Love sacks, yes they cut 20000, now they're saying they've replaced them (obviously lowered costs by forcing out experienced officers then recruiting greenhorns). As 2 of my partners sons can confirm (as they are police officers in 2 different forces) - new officers being recruited now are NOT being trained properly and I've been regaled of examples of new officers clutching a comfort blanket while their experienced colleague deals with an aggressive suspect on their own. Again, that harks back to my earlier quote about whether its right wing or incompetence, that example exposes the incompetence of the way the Home office has been led. The headline seeking sociopath and her small boat obsession was completely blind to the utter mess police forces are in.
What part of the civil service has expanded?

Because increasing the tax burden generally harms the tax yield, as well as having other unpleasant effects on the economy.
Our country does have control over immigration. Complete control now. It's quite easy considering the island status of Britain, and the only land border being with Eire. It's just the Tories choose to run a policy of net migration into the hundreds of thousands.
The point is that right-wing government wouldn't celebrate Pride, whether they should or shouldn't is academic. Same with energy. Whether it is or isn't the right thing to do is academic, but a right-wing government would pursue traditional forms of energy and, perhaps, nuclear, not put it all on wind and solar.
Cameron is the very definition of the centre-ground.
I agree with your point about police officers. For whatever reason, and they may have dropped it now, but a few years back they were insisting that new recruits to the police service needed to have a degree, or if they didn't have one then they needed to study for one alongside their training, which seems a bit bizarre.
I'm not sure specifically which part of the civil service has expanded, but civil service numbers are now higher than they were when Cameron first went into no.10, after an initial dip.

[dynamark]

JAS I am close to bionic man put down to a very long paper round too much footy running golf chasing ladies etc.
Should get it done this winter and then back on the bike to resume my enjoyment of golf.Just about to go collect my daughter from the golf course where she works on the range all video etc.
Very hard to explain to non golfers about the challenge and enjoyment of the game

[McLaren]

Duty

As a right winger yourself would you like to see the conservatives move further right than they are are the moment?

And is it social or fiscal issues that particularly drive yours right wing philosophy?

[super_realist]

Duty

As a right winger yourself would you like to see the conservatives move further right than they are are the moment?

And is it social or fiscal issues that particularly drive yours right wing philosophy?

Mac, in the same way a further left Labour is completely unelectable ( ask the woeful Corbyn), the same can be said of moving further right for the Tories.
Britain, despite it being in a mess, does at least work on politics in and around the centre ground.
Even Starmer, has finally realised this and got rid of racists like Corbyn, Abbot and Williamson from the party.

[super_realist]

Yet another critical BBC error. Who's editing this outdated waste of space?

[McLaren]

Yet another critical  BBC error. Who's editing this outdated waste of space?

Care to elaborate?

[McLaren]

Super

What point are you trying to make? Because your posts read like you are hairs breadth away from saying you think Israel are giving the Palestinians what they deserve.

Don't think you responded to this.

[super_realist]

Yet another critical  BBC error. Who's editing this outdated waste of space?

Care to elaborate?

Instead of saying that Israel were employing medics and Arab speakers to go the hospital in Gaza the BBC said the IDF was targeting and attacking medics and Arab speakers.
It then lied and said it was referring to a Reuters statement who have since said they didn't make that claim.
It's funny how BBC mistakes only ever go one way isn't it?

[McLaren]

Where are you seeing that story super? Isn't on any of the major news sites.

[super_realist]

Where are you seeing that story super? Isn't on any of the major news sites.

The BBC apologised for it on the news Mac. Do you think that level of mistake should be allowed to go out without being fact checked? Not surprising when their chief fact checker was found to have lied on her CV.

[McLaren]

I can't find a news article on the incident so I will refrain from responding until I find out what happened. Hopefully an honest mistake at worst.

[McLaren]

Super

What point are you trying to make? Because your posts read like you are hairs breadth away from saying you think Israel are giving the Palestinians what they deserve.

Super, are you just ignoring this?

[navyblueshorts]

I can't find a news article on the incident so I will refrain from responding until I find out what happened. Hopefully an honest mistake at worst.

Same here. TBH, I wouldn't believe the IDF or Hamas if they said the sun was coming up tomorrow...

[I'm never wrong]

I found this, but I don't know if this verifies it. https://www.politico.eu/article/bbc-says-sorry-to-israel-after-reporting-it-targeted-medical-staff/

[super_realist]

Super

What point are you trying to make? Because your posts read like you are hairs breadth away from saying you think Israel are giving the Palestinians what they deserve.

Super, are you just ignoring this?

Not at all Mac, I'm referring to the dreadful coverage of this entire conflict by the supposedly "impartial" BBC Mac. I've yet to see any evidence of the BBC making any similar dreadful journalism mistakes against the Palestine side, funny that.

As to your question, why aren't Palestine giving up the Hamas terrorists?

[super_realist]

I found this, but I don't know if this verifies it. https://www.politico.eu/article/bbc-says-sorry-to-israel-after-reporting-it-targeted-medical-staff/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/helpandfeedback/corrections_clarifications

[McLaren]

Super

What point are you trying to make? Because your posts read like you are hairs breadth away from saying you think Israel are giving the Palestinians what they deserve.

Super, are you just ignoring this?

Not at all Mac, I'm referring to the dreadful coverage of this entire conflict by the supposedly "impartial" BBC Mac. I've yet to see any evidence of the BBC making any similar dreadful journalism mistakes against the Palestine side, funny that.

Go back through the thread. I was referring to comments you made last week.

[McLaren]

I found this, but I don't know if this verifies it. https://www.politico.eu/article/bbc-says-sorry-to-israel-after-reporting-it-targeted-medical-staff/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/helpandfeedback/corrections_clarifications

"The correct version of events was broadcast minutes later and we apologised for the mistake on air later in the morning."

[super_realist]

Super

What point are you trying to make? Because your posts read like you are hairs breadth away from saying you think Israel are giving the Palestinians what they deserve.

Super, are you just ignoring this?

Not at all Mac, I'm referring to the dreadful coverage of this entire conflict by the supposedly "impartial" BBC Mac. I've yet to see any evidence of the BBC making any similar dreadful journalism mistakes against the Palestine side, funny that.

Go back through the thread. I was referring to comments you made last week.

Be specific Mac, I didn't say anything at all about Palestinians being fair game, nor did I even I ply it.
I said Israel are perfectly within their rights to retaliate against Hamas, as a terrorist group and for their terrorist attacks . Do you disagree with that stance?

[McLaren]

Super

What point are you trying to make? Because your posts read like you are hairs breadth away from saying you think Israel are giving the Palestinians what they deserve.

Super, are you just ignoring this?

Not at all Mac, I'm referring to the dreadful coverage of this entire conflict by the supposedly "impartial" BBC Mac. I've yet to see any evidence of the BBC making any similar dreadful journalism mistakes against the Palestine side, funny that.

Go back through the thread. I was referring to comments you made last week.

Be specific Mac, I didn't say anything at all about Palestinians being fair game, nor did I even I ply it.
I said Israel are perfectly within their rights to retaliate against Hamas, as a terrorist group and for their terrorist attacks . Do you disagree with that stance?

Yes, I disagree with that Stance. Israel has demonstrated for years it is unable to treat Palestinians humanely. Therefore they have lost the right to respond with military power. You don't get carte blanche to commit genocide just because you suffer a terrorist attack.

[super_realist]

I found this, but I don't know if this verifies it. https://www.politico.eu/article/bbc-says-sorry-to-israel-after-reporting-it-targeted-medical-staff/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/helpandfeedback/corrections_clarifications

"The correct version of events was broadcast minutes later and we apologised for the mistake on air later in the morning."

How about actually fact checking before they publish? They are one of, if not the biggest media Broadcaster in the world.
You think that in the whole BBC office, there isn't an editor casting a sceptical eye over such a sensational claim?
If you were in the news room, wouldn't you think twice about broadcasting a second hand story with an accusation like that?

Would you not consider the potential damage this could incur, much like when they accused Israel of bombing a hospital that turned out to be Hamas?

[super_realist]

Super

What point are you trying to make? Because your posts read like you are hairs breadth away from saying you think Israel are giving the Palestinians what they deserve.

Super, are you just ignoring this?

Not at all Mac, I'm referring to the dreadful coverage of this entire conflict by the supposedly "impartial" BBC Mac. I've yet to see any evidence of the BBC making any similar dreadful journalism mistakes against the Palestine side, funny that.

Go back through the thread. I was referring to comments you made last week.

Be specific Mac, I didn't say anything at all about Palestinians being fair game, nor did I even I ply it.
I said Israel are perfectly within their rights to retaliate against Hamas, as a terrorist group and for their terrorist attacks . Do you disagree with that stance?

Yes, I disagree with that Stance. Israel has demonstrated for years it is unable to treat Palestinians humanely. Therefore they have lost the right to respond with military power. You don't get carte blanche to commit genocide just because you suffer a terrorist attack.

You think Israel should not retaliate against Hamas ( not the Palestinians) for a terrorist attack?

[McLaren]

Super

In an alternative reality where Israel behaved responsibility towards Palestinian people they would have the right to launch a military operation in Palestine against hamas. We don't live in that universe. Israel should be kept away from Palestine.

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