England - The Next Episode

First topic message reminder :

The next stage of development....progression or failure....who can tell.

Zach Mercer giving two fingers to SB? Playing great so far...

Of the A team players....Englefield looks decent.

Tuima showing his raw power...but Painter looks like a tanker....he's so old school he can barely run. Looks like he's in mud every time he moves. He won't be considered I I wouldn't have thought.

Painter has looked less mobile as the season has gone on. It's odd. He was playing well in the loose early in the season. It makes me wonder if he has some sort of injury that flares up when he plays, hampers his mobility. Being over 130kg and able to move is rare. That weight will put such a strain on the joints when you run, let alone running into people. Hence why guys like Antonio who can keep going week after week at that size are invaluable to their sides.

I think Atkinson has had quietly effective game for Gloucester, Hodge obviously didn't send him a birthday card or something...

And is not worth putting one of the young tightheads from the U20 efc in the A team rhan Joesefa Scott....

They've said it's a bridging tool for the u20s to the seniors...so why on earth pick Scott!!

And Jsh Hodge...meh

Geordie wrote:And is not worth putting one of the young tightheads from the U20 efc in the A team rhan Joesefa Scott....

They've said it's a bridging tool for the u20s to the seniors...so why on earth pick Scott!!

Why does your hatred of imports not extend to Cunningham-South?

It's interesting when you hear all the ex pros and current players seemingly puzzled how Mercer Is not in the England squad.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:And is not worth putting one of the young tightheads from the U20 efc in the A team rhan Joesefa Scott....

They've said it's a bridging tool for the u20s to the seniors...so why on earth pick Scott!!

Why does your hatred of imports not extend to Cunningham-South?

Technically he's a reimport

Geordie wrote:It's interesting when you hear all the ex pros and current players seemingly puzzled how Mercer Is not in the England squad.

They hadn't read what he said? Also he has been a bit hot and cold. He definitely should have been in. RWC instead of Billy but think he's blown chance now.

lostinwales wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:And is not worth putting one of the young tightheads from the U20 efc in the A team rhan Joesefa Scott....

They've said it's a bridging tool for the u20s to the seniors...so why on earth pick Scott!!

Why does your hatred of imports not extend to Cunningham-South?

Technically he's a reimport

CCS born in England to English parents who emigrated. 20 and an Immense talent.

Scott - woeful NZ prop 27 year old...who is second to Painter in the Exeter team which says something.

Oh and have I said i hate Tuima?

mountain man wrote:

Geordie wrote:It's interesting when you hear all the ex pros and current players seemingly puzzled how Mercer Is not in the England squad.

They hadn't read what he said? Also he has been a bit hot and cold. He definitely should have been in. RWC instead of Billy but think he's blown chance now.

Did he say anything wrong?

I'd have to find article but from what I remember he was critical of being left out. At time I thought wasn't a good look

This is basically it from quote from one site but most had it:

.I just don’t feel like he values what I can offer as a player, and that’s me being honest, I don’t think he values what I can bring."

But is he saying anything wrong. He probably shpuld be I'm the England squad....I suspect he'll be away back to France before his contract is finished woth Gloucester.

One of the top French sides will snap him up

My thoughts was it didn't read well. It was a bad look and read like sour grapes.

What we don't know about the Mercer situation is if he was promised anything to come back to England. Or just intimated at, or what not. If there was something even hinted at, I rather doubt it will come out. At the earliest, not until he moves back to France.

Geordie wrote:And is not worth putting one of the young tightheads from the U20 efc in the A team rhan Joesefa Scott....

They've said it's a bridging tool for the u20s to the seniors...so why on earth pick Scott!!

The under 20s have a game then don't they?

Heyes might still drop down to play for England A and Scott isn't used. If Heyes is required by England seniors the day before then they need a body to make up the numbers and given they've gone for two young looseheads and two of the three hookers are fairly inexperienced having a very sizeable tighthead who's in his prime years makes sense.

mountain man wrote:My thoughts was it didn't read well. It was a bad look and read like sour grapes.

The whole thing sounded like Mercer had a take it or leave it attitude. Borthwick has said that every player was given work ons. If Mercer wanted inclusion then he knew what he had to do because Borthwick will have told him.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:And is not worth putting one of the young tightheads from the U20 efc in the A team rhan Joesefa Scott....

They've said it's a bridging tool for the u20s to the seniors...so why on earth pick Scott!!

The under 20s have a game then don't they?

Heyes might still drop down to play for England A and Scott isn't used. If Heyes is required by England seniors the day before then they need a body to make up the numbers and given they've gone for two young looseheads and two of the three hookers are fairly inexperienced having a very sizeable tighthead who's in his prime years makes sense.

The U20s may have a game Sam I'm not sure..and I agree with what your saying..having a big heavy duty tighthead in there...However...Scott isn't a particularly good tighthead. If you want a scrum man pick Painter..but the rest ofnthe team has to make up for his zero mobility.

I hope Hayes is the starter and Scott is nowhere near. He's a poor pick. I'd FAR FAR rather have big Trev Daivson in there...

doctor_grey wrote:What we don't know about the Mercer situation is if he was promised anything to come back to England.  Or just intimated at, or what not.  If there was something even hinted at, I rather doubt it will come out.  At the earliest, not until he moves back to France.

Same with anything in press or media, we'll never know full story. All I know is when orginal story came out my immediate thoughts were Borthwick not going to be happy reading those comments. Whether Mercer meant them as they appear we don't know but I think quite a few fans/pundits etc had similar view as me.

Here's article from BBC ;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68023982

Geordie wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:And is not worth putting one of the young tightheads from the U20 efc in the A team rhan Joesefa Scott....

They've said it's a bridging tool for the u20s to the seniors...so why on earth pick Scott!!

The under 20s have a game then don't they?

Heyes might still drop down to play for England A and Scott isn't used. If Heyes is required by England seniors the day before then they need a body to make up the numbers and given they've gone for two young looseheads and two of the three hookers are fairly inexperienced having a very sizeable tighthead who's in his prime years makes sense.

The U20s may have a game Sam I'm not sure..and I agree with what your saying..having a big heavy duty tighthead in there...However...Scott isn't a particularly good tighthead. If you want a scrum man pick Painter..but the rest ofnthe team has to make up for his zero mobility.

I hope Hayes is the starter and Scott is nowhere near. He's a poor pick. I'd FAR FAR rather have big Trev Daivson in there...

Davison has been pretty meh for Saints. Their scrum is easily the weakest part of their game and Davison has done little to stabilise it nor add much around the park. He's also 31 so four years older and there's no hope he'll make the next world cup.

Ioseffa-Scott is a pretty uninspiring pick but he's bloody massive and gets around the pitch to a passable level for a man of his size. It'll be a Nick Schonert style selection. Used once and then never seen again. I'd have preferred to see Painter in there though he has similar issues to his game.

Hopefully we see Heyes start and Harper come off the bench. Given Portugal are apparently lacking their French based players for the game this shouldn't be particularly taxing.

Yes Hayes and Harper would be the ideal scenario....

Anyone read anything on this Portugal game?know Borthwick chose the players and that he sees it as these are the guys who will be taking the next step up to the full team in time. But will the tactics follow the full team.

Mitchell out with a knee injury. Randall called up

Well, that would be more bad news. Though glad Randall gets a shot.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Anyone read anything on this Portugal game?know Borthwick chose the players and that he sees it as these are the guys who will be taking the next step up to the full team in time. But will the tactics follow the full team.

I thought Connor O'Shea had a substantial input. Player pathway development is literally part of his job. I thought he'd said the A team was something he'd been pushing to bring back.

lostinwales wrote:Mitchell out with a knee injury.  Randall called up

Eurgh. Not good news that.

Still no sign of JvP, I was hoping he'd be playing today in the PRC but sadly not.

Randell a good replacement though. Plays with tempo and is a real handful when on the front foot.

Yoda wrote:Randell a good replacement though. Plays with tempo and is a real handful when on the front foot.

His kicking and game management in general are not particularly good though. Against Scotland we might get front foot ball and he can play with momentum but against Ireland and France? Not much chance at which point he's a weakness. Spencer could jump into the starting shirt though he blows hot and cold. He'd have 50 caps if he consistently played as well as he's able.

We're crying out for Ben Youngs steadying hand to come on and kick aimlessly when winning.

No 7&1/2 wrote:We're crying out for Ben Youngs steadying hand to come on and kick aimlessly when winning.

He certainly was consistent...

Shame about Mitchell.
Be interesting to see who starts, Care possibly/probably. Spencer bench. Randall? Doubt he'll be in 23 but who knows.

As for tinkering with back 3, well something needs doing.
Lawrence and/or Manu are likely to be back in centres I think to give more punch in middle.

Why does something need doing back 3 wise though? The decision making between Slade and Daly has been slightly iffy on defence but that can only improve with time. They should all be ok dealing with kicks.

Surely Care comes in and then Spencer moves up. It would be odd to just ignore the latter when he's been in the squad the entire time. I really like Randall and he'd excel for Scotland but his strengths aren't really what we're looking for, more surprised the replacement wasn't Warr.

mountain man wrote:Shame about Mitchell.
Be interesting to see who starts, Care possibly/probably. Spencer bench. Randall? Doubt he'll be in 23 but who knows.

As for tinkering with back 3, well something needs doing.
Lawrence and/or Manu are likely to be back in centres I think to give more punch in middle.

id like to see Lawrence and maybe Slade moving between 12 and 13 depending on attack and defence etc...

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why does something need doing back 3 wise though? The decision making between Slade and Daly has been slightly iffy on defence but that can only improve with time. They should all be ok dealing with kicks.

Surely Care comes in and then Spencer moves up. It would be odd to just ignore the latter when he's been in the squad the entire time. I really like Randall and he'd excel for Scotland but his strengths aren't really what we're looking for, more surprised the replacement wasn't Warr.

From what I have seen Slade has been getting ahead of the defensive rush leaving a gap on either side between Dingwall and Daly/Freeman. He seemed to be getting it better in the second half vs Wales. Slade is an excellent defender and has been praised for his marshalling of the defence for a long time, but this super blitz defence has caused him a few problems, especially with someone he has never played with before on his inside. What England are playing is very similar to what Saints play, super fast line speed up into their faces and stop the ball before it get over the gain line. It takes a lot of training together to get it right and understand what you team mates are going to do. If you get it wrong, it is a disaster, you just leave big holes for people to run through, hence Saints abysmal defensive record in past seasons ( not that much better this), but at Least Saints attack can make up for it; England's can't.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why does something need doing back 3 wise though? The decision making between Slade and Daly has been slightly iffy on defence but that can only improve with time. They should all be ok dealing with kicks.

Surely Care comes in and then Spencer moves up. It would be odd to just ignore the latter when he's been in the squad the entire time. I really like Randall and he'd excel for Scotland but his strengths aren't really what we're looking for, more surprised the replacement wasn't Warr.

Seeing as you have been very critical of Daly(has he overtaken Malins in your affection?) then I'd have thought been first on your wishlist.
Even if starting team nigh on same barring injury changes I'd hope to see more time given to subs. Why wasn't IFW bought on for Daly against Wales for example.

mountain man wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why does something need doing back 3 wise though? The decision making between Slade and Daly has been slightly iffy on defence but that can only improve with time. They should all be ok dealing with kicks.

Surely Care comes in and then Spencer moves up. It would be odd to just ignore the latter when he's been in the squad the entire time. I really like Randall and he'd excel for Scotland but his strengths aren't really what we're looking for, more surprised the replacement wasn't Warr.

Seeing as you have been very critical of Daly(has he overtaken Malins in your affection?) then I'd have thought been first on your wishlist.
Even if starting team nigh on same barring injury changes I'd hope to see more time given to subs. Why wasn't IFW bought on for Daly against Wales for example.

I read somewhere that Borthwick was doing a bit of counselling with IFW, mainly about him playing against the country he was born and bred in. Maybe the signs on the bench were not to positive during the match.

Scotland 9 10 12 13 really playing well and know each other and gameplan to a tee. If England get blitz wrong Russell will cut them open and likes of VDM coming inside could be painful again.

From what I've seen first two games, England got a bit to work on.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

mountain man wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why does something need doing back 3 wise though? The decision making between Slade and Daly has been slightly iffy on defence but that can only improve with time. They should all be ok dealing with kicks.

Surely Care comes in and then Spencer moves up. It would be odd to just ignore the latter when he's been in the squad the entire time. I really like Randall and he'd excel for Scotland but his strengths aren't really what we're looking for, more surprised the replacement wasn't Warr.

Seeing as you have been very critical of Daly(has he overtaken Malins in your affection?) then I'd have thought been first on your wishlist.
Even if starting team nigh on same barring injury changes I'd hope to see more time given to subs. Why wasn't IFW bought on for Daly against Wales for example.

I read somewhere that Borthwick was doing a bit of counselling with IFW, mainly about him playing against the country he was born and bred in. Maybe the signs on the bench were not to positive during the match.

I think though that was perfect opportunity to play him. He made his choice, will be fullly aware of implications of it so should embrace it.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why does something need doing back 3 wise though? The decision making between Slade and Daly has been slightly iffy on defence but that can only improve with time. They should all be ok dealing with kicks.

Surely Care comes in and then Spencer moves up. It would be odd to just ignore the latter when he's been in the squad the entire time. I really like Randall and he'd excel for Scotland but his strengths aren't really what we're looking for, more surprised the replacement wasn't Warr.

From what I have seen Slade has been getting ahead of the defensive rush leaving a gap on either side between Dingwall and Daly/Freeman. He seemed to be getting it better in the second half vs Wales. Slade is an excellent defender and has been praised for his marshalling of the defence for a long time, but this super blitz defence has caused him a few problems, especially with someone he has never played with before on his inside. What England are playing is very similar to what Saints play, super fast line speed up into their faces and stop the ball before it get over the gain line. It takes a lot of training together to get it right and understand what you team mates are going to do. If you get it wrong, it is a disaster, you just leave big holes for people to run through, hence Saints abysmal defensive record in past seasons ( not that much better this), but at Least Saints attack can make up for it; England's can't.

Its the same defence that Exeter are using.....

mountain man wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why does something need doing back 3 wise though? The decision making between Slade and Daly has been slightly iffy on defence but that can only improve with time. They should all be ok dealing with kicks.

Surely Care comes in and then Spencer moves up. It would be odd to just ignore the latter when he's been in the squad the entire time. I really like Randall and he'd excel for Scotland but his strengths aren't really what we're looking for, more surprised the replacement wasn't Warr.

Seeing as you have been very critical of Daly(has he overtaken Malins in your affection?) then I'd have thought been first on your wishlist.
Even if starting team nigh on same barring injury changes I'd hope to see more time given to subs. Why wasn't IFW bought on for Daly against Wales for example.

It's the awkward what I would like to see vs what brings the best from the system. I don't want either Malins or Daly in the team for a personal perspective, I'd much rather go with guys who are more natural finishers.

I've said for a while that Borthwick doesn't like to take risks. That Wales game was in the balance and he trusts Daly. Saw a comment from George that him and Slade and the leaders in the backline.

I'd rather tacklers than leaders to be honest....

Mitchell confirmed out for rest of 6N. 'Grade 2 ACL injury'

lostinwales wrote:Mitchell confirmed out for rest of 6N. 'Grade 2 ACL injury'

Was confirmed as Grade 2?  For an ACL, Grade 2 is not common for the ACL.

He's avoided a tear. Best case is he's back in 6 weeks.

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's avoided a tear. Best case is he's back in 6 weeks.

Just in time for the Premiership playoffs.  Going to be a big mountain for Saints to climb in the meantime.  And even slower ball for England now....

For grade 2s, the six week is kind of a standard time frame. The reality for grade 2s can be all over the map. Really glad not worse.

doctor_grey wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Mitchell confirmed out for rest of 6N. 'Grade 2 ACL injury'

Was confirmed as Grade 2?  For an ACL, Grade 2 is not common for the ACL.

Heard it on tw@tter so must be true...

lostinwales wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Mitchell confirmed out for rest of 6N. 'Grade 2 ACL injury'

Was confirmed as Grade 2?  For an ACL, Grade 2 is not common for the ACL.

Heard it on tw@tter so must be true...

Of course. Silly of me.

Isnt it funny how things work...Mitchell got in and became first choice through injury...and now Randall or Spencer "could get the same"...unless Care starts...

I don't think he's necessarily the long term option but Mitchell has been fundamental to how we play since the RWC, so losing him isn't great