England - The Next Episode

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The next stage of development....progression or failure....who can tell.

Mitchell has been excellent since his recall. His improvement in a short space of time has been remarkable. His box kicking has come on massively, whilst he's gone from a Care level defensive non-entity to very adept member of the back field which allows the wingers to play up in the line more. It's a big loss.

Bit late to the party but I've just seen the A team selection, always nice to see a youthful squad with potential like that. There was an obvious gap for many players between graduating from U20 to then making the Senior squad and this should help fix that. Apparently in future they're looking at three, perhaps even four fixtures a season and not necessarily all during the Six Nations window. Scotland have also brought back their second string so they'd be a potential opponent.

Anyway the 'A' team are meeting up at Loughborough University tomorrow.

Poorfour wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I shouldn't be overly surprised that there's no Mercer after his comments but I am quite sad for him to going from being voted the best player in France to ignored by Borthwick.

Conor O'Shea made a clarifying comment on the selection that the A squad is very much a development squad with a few older heads to provide experience, but that there are a number of players who would get the call up to the senior squad ahead of the A players. The way it was reported was as if it was in response to a question about Mercer, so the assumption is that he is one of them.

It was indeed regards Mercer, just watched the clip on the Twitter account of Ed Slater - fair to say he doesn't agree.  

Poorfour wrote:I'm looking forward to see how Fin Baxter goes at this level. He's looking ready to take over from Marler at club level, and I think he'd be the obvious candidate to do so at International level too. Though they might need to find someone else to give the press their pantomime villain. Baxter seems a pretty serious lad on the pitch, and is apparently pretty quiet off it.

According to Chris Foy in the (17 January) Daily Mail, Baxter was on the stand-by list covering in case Marler, Genge or Obano got injured.

Geordie wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Poorfour wrote:I'm looking forward to see how Fin Baxter goes at this level. He's looking ready to take over from Marler at club level, and I think he'd be the obvious candidate to do so at International level too. Though they might need to find someone else to give the press their pantomime villain. Baxter seems a pretty serious lad on the pitch, and is apparently pretty quiet off it.

Baxter and Brantingham look the best LH talents to me.

I'm not sure Obano will get to where it once looked like he could. Injuries seem to have taken their toll, sadly. His scrummaging is still very up and down, whilst his tackling isn't as dynamic as it once was.

Brantingham developing at Sarries will be interesting to watch.

I agree so why is Tarek Haffar in over Brantingham.

Well Haffar is quite highly rated as well Geordie. And Borthwick has mentioned Brantingham:

Borthwick wrote:Baxter for Harlequins is playing well. Joe speaks highly. The players, the really good players, know who is another potential player to come through. Chat to Joe, he speaks really positively about Fin Baxter and what potential he has.

You see Tarek [Haffar] at Northampton having been injured and come back to play well. Some good young props, [Phil] Brantingham up at Newcastle, he’s a good young prop. Clearly, there are players who are less experienced and younger, but there are guys playing well.

Appreciate you don't rate Iosefa-Scott but alternative tightheads are a bit thin on the ground. Fraser Balmain, Trevor Davison & Nick Schonert are almost as old as Dan Cole! Will Collier is off to Castres apparently.

mountain man wrote:Glad to see likes of Sleightholme, Murley and especially Ma'asi-White getting a look in. Btw Cumbrian, Josh Hodge is there.

Rekeiti Ma’asi-White has barely played for Sale, believe he's recently been playing in the Championship, however Borthwick has said he has "enormous potential" which must be based on pathway knowledge of U20 performance.

That Ma'asi-White & Olly Hartley have been chosen maybe points towards the kind of 12 Borthwick is looking for rather than the likes of Dan Kelly or Seb Atkinson? I'd assume Skivington would've been pushing for the latter.

Flintoff05 wrote:
Rekeiti Ma’asi-White has barely played for Sale, believe he's recently been playing in the Championship, however Borthwick has said he has "enormous potential" which must be based on pathway knowledge of U20 performance.

That Ma'asi-White & Olly Hartley have been chosen maybe points towards the kind of 12 Borthwick is looking for rather than the likes of Dan Kelly or Seb Atkinson? I'd assume Skivington would've been pushing for the latter.

I know what you're saying about Borthwick wanting larger centres but Connor O'Shea will have had input on this as well. Olly Hartley has been in good form for Sarries so makes a lot of sense and he's more than just a big lad, he played some fullback for Wasps. He's quick with half decent footballing skills.

Ma'asi-White though, that does seem like we want another Manu and this is the closest we have currently.

Dan Kelly, is 6ft1 and a shade under 16 stone so isn't exactly small. He's just out of form. Seb Atkinson is small by international centre standards and was fantastic at the start of the season but his form did hit a blip in December.

Ma'asi-White was superb for U20s and has all attributes to make it in senior game, seeing as he is a centre which to some of us is a continuing problem position the sooner he makes it the better.

I watched bits of the Under-18s Academy League Final with Bath and Saints yesterday, one to watch Ben Agbenu, plays 13, serous speed, great feet and an eye for the opening. Ripped Bath apart when he came on. You heard it here first.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I watched bits of the Under-18s Academy League Final with Bath and Saints yesterday, one to watch Ben Agbenu, plays 13, serous speed, great feet and an eye for the opening. Ripped Bath apart when he came on. You heard it here first.

The problem is that we have many more good 13s than we have 12s. Quins alone have Beard, Northmore, Joseph and Anyanwu in their senior squad (and only lost Marchant over the summer). Anyanwu might be able to convert to 12, Northmore looks like he ought to be able to play 12 but hasn't really excelled there on the few occasions he's filled that role. I think a lot of clubs are in the same boat, and most of the preferred starting 12s in the Prem are not EQPs.

No idea how we fix that or why it's taken so long.

Tigers have the opposite problem. We've got three young 12s but form has been an issue for two and the third is currently learning his trade on loan in the Championship.

Kelly's form is at least back to consistently solid now and at 22 he's still got years ahead of him. Phil Cokanasiga had his first good game for Tigers at the weekend. Not sure his future is at 12 but we'll see. Joe Woodward is on loan at Notts and is a classy option, not the hard running centre that England seem to want to find though. Woodward was significantly more effective at under 20 level than Ma'asi-White who was shocking in his first season at that level but more impressive in the second season.

The only centre we have is young Ben Redshaw who is a fabulous talent, but is floating between centres and full back at the moment.

Ma'asi-White's hands are a bit like shovels when I've seen him.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ma'asi-White's hands are a bit like shovels when I've seen him.

It's a bit like Jason Robinson making us believe every RL import is going to be special. Tuilagi makes us think that every home grown PI heritage center will run through opposition backlines for fun. Ma'asi-White might turn into a really good player, there was good and bad at U20, but yes the handling thing very much comes to mind.

Yep best to stick with hoping Manu stays fit and and pick him and Slade for eternity. Then again Farrell could come back in another couple years so that's the 12 position sorted.

Lol. Just saying!

It'll be interesting when this new contract thing comes out to see what exactly is agreed between the RFU and clubs. Presumably the RFU will get a bit more say on things so its quite feasible that some suggestions at positioning is made to clubs. We're already got the really good young tight head we're crying out for being suggested that he move back to loose by our top scrum coach.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Lol. Just saying!

It'll be interesting when this new contract thing comes out to see what exactly is agreed between the RFU and clubs. Presumably the RFU will get a bit more say on things so its quite feasible that some suggestions at positioning is made to clubs. We're already got the really good young tight head we're crying out for being suggested that he move back to loose by our top scrum coach.

Catt or Harrison?

From what I've heard on the central contracts the clubs will retain final selection calls. Apparently it was a hard line that the P-share clubs wouldn't yield on. So what position players are picked in will remain with the club coaches.

I'm expecting the new PGA when released to have an increase in enforced rest periods in the build up to internationals as well as after them. Maybe the England setup getting some level of control on when the EPS players are rested as well. I've not seen any suggestion that they will get any say on where players are picked at club level.

Harrison Sam, think it was an interview on TNT.

Just pondering it King. If you were the RFU surely you'd float that idea if it means the difference between a club basically getting a 'free' player?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Lol. Just saying!

It'll be interesting when this new contract thing comes out to see what exactly is agreed between the RFU and clubs. Presumably the RFU will get a bit more say on things so its quite feasible that some suggestions at positioning is made to clubs. We're already got the really good young tight head we're crying out for being suggested that he move back to loose by our top scrum coach.

Catt or Harrison?

It wasn't even a Harrison quote. Sanderson mentioned in passing that Harrison checked in with him at Sale to discuss their front rows. Apparently Harrison feels that AOF might end up being a better LH, Sanderson likes him at TH.

To most that was a very unsurprising thing to read given he's a very talented 19-year-old who has played his age grade rugby at LH, then broke through at TH from bench apps due to an injury crisis at club level. Prop who plays both sides has coaches who thinks he's better at one. Breaking news.

There used to be a time when props that could play both sides well were considered to be worth their weight in gold (that was usually a lot of gold).

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just pondering it King. If you were the RFU surely you'd float that idea if it means the difference between a club basically getting a 'free' player?

From what I've heard, they did float the idea. The P-share clubs rejected it though. They were open to more enforced rest periods given the shorter season with 10 clubs.

My concern is that we will see rules around non-EQP numbers tightened though. Which I think makes the league worse and therefore player development worse, but I could see the RFU demanding that instead of more control over selection. Whilst the Prem clubs may well go for it as England players having to be in the Prem keeps their wages down.

Even with the reduced size of the league, 10 teams should be plenty for the best talents to get exposure though. The key is having the necessary standard of exposure every week. Otherwise players stall. That's the issue with the Prem being viewed as the countries premier competition and a nursery for academy grads. Only the absolute freaks should get significant exposure whilst teenagers. Most should be developing in stronger Championship and Nat leagues. Then come into the Prem when they are good enough. Not come into the Prem because they are English enough with the hope they might be good enough. That drags quality down, which hampers development, drags quality down, etc. Which is the cycle the Prem is in IMO.

A big issue with premiership is number of overseas players in sides which then prevent EQ players getting gametime. The old argument of fans want to see best players so getting in a boatload of SA players wears a bit thin for me.
Hard for players to develop if not getting exposure in first team.

mountain man wrote:A big issue with premiership is number of overseas players in sides which then prevent EQ players getting gametime. The old argument of fans want to see best players so getting in a boatload of SA players wears a bit thin for me.
Hard for players to develop if not getting exposure in first team.

Depends what the quality of the first team is though. Which is what KC is saying. There's a balance between fighting for your place and then having to work hard to make the grade at senior level once you get a chance to being played early because there's no choice and then dominating against average players.

You have to find a balance.

formerly known as Sam wrote:There used to be a time when props that could play both sides well were considered to be worth their weight in gold (that was usually a lot of gold).

Versatility was always a massive part of rugby. FBs playing wing and vice versa. FHs covering 12 or fullback. 13s playing wing. Second rows covering blindside. Flankers covering across the back row.

From the England '03 side alone. Lewsey and Robinson played everywhere from 11-15 at international level. Same for Hill, Lol and Worsley across the back row. Corry played lock, 6 and 8. Moody played 6 and 7. Catt played everywhere. Abbott was the only centre in the squad that didn't play 12 and 13 a lot.

Versatility just became a dirty word in the sport more recently. I wonder if the polarised social media world where a loud proportion of fans repeat when they're right ad nauseum but ignore when they are wrong is part of that. The echo chamber. Players who are used outside the position where they initially played club rugby and succeed get quietly ignored. Whereas if anyone struggles even fleetingly it is evidence of all predictions being correct. BBC HYS has some of the lowest quality sports discussion in that regard. "pICk oN cLUb fOrM", is a good one. When Dombrandt is picked and looks like an 18 stone Mr Bean impersonator searching for his keys it just gets ignored. To some fans everyone's guaranteed to succeed at international level until they don't.

Interestingly, both the RWC finalists extensively made use of players who cover many positions.

Whether that will extend back to prop again is an intriguing question. Ireland in switching Porter to LH very late, then listing Healy as able to cover LH/hooker/TH are certainly an example of it. I believe that Beetham and Porter are still listed on official team sheets as able to play LH and TH too.

Not seen anyone calling for Dombrandt to be picked on any forum to be honest.
And if a player isn't picked on basis of form for his/her club side then how are Int coaches supposed to select? On past reputation? Social media influence? He's best mate with captain?

Yes I'm being facetious but its also pretty true.

king_carlos wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Lol. Just saying!

It'll be interesting when this new contract thing comes out to see what exactly is agreed between the RFU and clubs. Presumably the RFU will get a bit more say on things so its quite feasible that some suggestions at positioning is made to clubs. We're already got the really good young tight head we're crying out for being suggested that he move back to loose by our top scrum coach.

Catt or Harrison?

It wasn't even a Harrison quote. Sanderson mentioned in passing that Harrison checked in with him at Sale to discuss their front rows. Apparently Harrison feels that AOF might end up being a better LH, Sanderson likes him at TH.

To most that was a very unsurprising thing to read given he's a very talented 19-year-old who has played his age grade rugby at LH, then broke through at TH from bench apps due to an injury crisis at club level. Prop who plays both sides has coaches who thinks he's better at one. Breaking news.

Inexperienced coach picked up from an old club seemingly due to desperation ignores club form and the lack of tighthead options to offer his 'expert' opinion. No wonder they ignored it!

king_carlos wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:There used to be a time when props that could play both sides well were considered to be worth their weight in gold (that was usually a lot of gold).

Versatility was always a massive part of rugby. FBs playing wing and vice versa. FHs covering 12 or fullback. 13s playing wing. Second rows covering blindside. Flankers covering across the back row.

From the England '03 side alone. Lewsey and Robinson played everywhere from 11-15 at international level. Same for Hill, Lol and Worsley across the back row. Corry played lock, 6 and 8. Moody played 6 and 7. Catt played everywhere. Abbott was the only centre in the squad that didn't play 12 and 13 a lot.

Versatility just became a dirty word in the sport more recently. I wonder if the polarised social media world where a loud proportion of fans repeat when they're right ad nauseum but ignore when they are wrong is part of that. The echo chamber. Players who are used outside the position where they initially played club rugby and succeed get quietly ignored. Whereas if anyone struggles even fleetingly it is evidence of all predictions being correct. BBC HYS has some of the lowest quality sports discussion in that regard. "pICk oN cLUb fOrM", is a good one. When Dombrandt is picked and looks like an 18 stone Mr Bean impersonator searching for his keys it just gets ignored. To some fans everyone's guaranteed to succeed at international level until they don't.

Interestingly, both the RWC finalists extensively made use of players who cover many positions.

Whether that will extend back to prop again is an intriguing question. Ireland in switching Porter to LH very late, then listing Healy as able to cover LH/hooker/TH are certainly an example of it. I believe that Beetham and Porter are still listed on official team sheets as able to play LH and TH too.

It's a great point. Versatility in a squad game is incredibly useful.

Thomas du Toit got called up by the Boks having played both sides for them previously and has played both sides for Bath this season. How many opensides were covering hooker for the Boks?

Why a young prop needs to "pick a side of the scrum" at 19/20 is pretty pointless. Being able to play both will make him more selectable and somewhat more useful at club level as he's found by getting into the team due to an injury crisis at TH.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mountain man wrote:A big issue with premiership is number of overseas players in sides which then prevent EQ players getting gametime. The old argument of fans want to see best players so getting in a boatload of SA players wears a bit thin for me.
Hard for players to develop if not getting exposure in first team.

Depends what the quality of the first team is though. Which is what KC is saying. There's a balance between fighting for your place and then having to work hard to make the grade at senior level once you get a chance to being played early because there's no choice and then dominating against average players.

You have to find a balance.

Yep. The key is developing England quality players not England qualified players. Getting guys who wouldn't be ready for a stronger Prem exposure at Prem level by having a lower quality Premiership isn't how you develop the academy talent long term. That's how you stall it.

The academies produce lots of talent at U18s, those EQP kids need exposure but it should be in well managed leagues below Prem level. Then the Prem is the final proving ground where competition should be brutal every week.

Currently the Prem is expected to be cosy nursery for the kids and prepare the likes of Maro Itoje to stand up to the Ireland or France packs in the Six Nations. Those two things don't really work together though.

Players should primarily be in the Premiership because they are good enough, not because they are English enough.

Prem is proving to be about level with the others leagues at the moment of course. Personally exposure and opportunity is great for me for the youngsters. During the years of a stronger prem we still saw positions struggle for depth as players were taken up in teams by less than stellar players. And I get that view from clubs and managers in that why risk a youngster when you have a solid journeyman available.

mountain man wrote:Not seen anyone calling for Dombrandt to be picked on any forum to be honest.
And if a player isn't picked on basis of form for his/her club side then how are Int coaches supposed to select? On past reputation? Social media influence? He's best mate with captain?

Yes I'm being facetious but its also pretty true.

Many were prior to him being dogs**t at that level though is the point. If players such as that are ignored then, "Coaches haven't a clue", but if they are then rubbish fans just quietly move onto the next player that MUST be picked on CLUB FORM. Selection is always easy from the armchair being my point. Fans tend to remember when they were right and forget when they were wrong, but, remember when a coach gets in wrong and ignore when they get it right. Hence the echo chamber.

Many international coaches rely heavily on looking at how prospects profile compared to players currently succeeding in a position across international level. To keep up the with the pace at international level, back rows need to be make a sky high number of 'interventions' in a match. Whilst wingers that last almost all have strong kicking games. For established players who have performed at international level coaches should absolutely look at their prior performances, yes. If it's a player who came into camp, had clear weaknesses and was told to work on them, then obviously you look at whether they've improved. A player may go back to club level and perform excellently without that area changing at all.

Then within all those things, you consider recent and long term club form. It's a part of a larger equation though. Rather than selection based 90% who's been good in the last fortnight.

Whereas some fans tend to think, "Who's looked good on the highlights in last few weeks? Well obviously that's the XV." Even though I can't think of any successful international coach who has operated that way.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Prem is proving to be about level with the others leagues at the moment of course. Personally exposure and opportunity is great for me for the youngsters. During the years of a stronger prem we still saw positions struggle for depth as players were taken up in teams by less than stellar players. And I get that view from clubs and managers in that why risk a youngster when you have a solid journeyman available.

Presumably that's based on qualifying from a ERCC group stage where you can get to the KOs with one win.

Since Chiefs won in 2019/20 the Prem has had:

'22/23 - 3 quarter finalists with Tigers and Sarries easily beaten. One semi-finalist with Chiefs easily beaten.
'21/22 - 2 quarter finalists with Tigers and Sale easily beaten.
'20/21 - 2 quarter finalists with Sale and Chiefs easily beaten.

So one SF contender who didn't do well in 3 years.

Prem teams won the title in 4 of the preceding years prior to that from '15/16 to '19/20. England won 3 Six Nations, made a RWC final and had a record equalling win run in that time. Maybe it's a coincidence though...

Pretty sure selection made on club form for longer than last 2 weeks. And yes established Int players will have credit in bank as coaches know those players have/can perform at highest level. So an experienced Int player coming back from injury likely to have as much if not more chance of being selected as a high flying rookie. However, this has to be taken carefully as likes of Billy V for example picked when he was in dreadful form. Same has happened with Farrell in past and then there's always bringing Manu back in after yet another injury only to last 20 minutes and go off crooked again.

As for being an armchair selector, well unless you are a professional or top level amateur coach then join the club.

Regards Dombrandt, I was one back prior to him playing for England who was calling for him to be picked by England. The way he was playing for Quins definitely merited it and he deservedly got picked.
Unfortunately it has turned out he doesn't have required physicality for an Int 8. He along with most other Eng players got badly found out against France although he was particularly exposed.
However, until a player is tried it's a bit difficult to see if he will make it or not. He was tried, given a fair chance and currently not required. He might well make sufficient progress next 12 months or so and force his way back into reckoning.

Well it coincides with some teams managing to hold a number of top quality internationals at 1 club without the spread across others. Take away Saracens who were cheating and spread the same players across more clubs and you potentially don't have the top level wins semis etc. But would that mean the quality of player was different?
I do take the point of the 6 nations though. Thanks Eddie!

mountain man wrote:As for being an armchair selector, well unless you are a professional or top level amateur coach then join the club.

That's why I try to look at coaches bad decisions with perspective of their good ones though.

For instance, Jones was lambasted for selections such as Curry at 8. Yet a his success with England was littered with similar experiments that worked. Farrell at 12. Going with Haskell at 7 when most fans were crying out for a "fetcher". Lawes shifting to 6 prolonged his career and led to him being a Lions starter there. Tuilagi was at 12 for one of the best performances I've ever seen from an England team in the 2019 SF. Even backing LCD soon after he'd shifted to hooker, when his lineout was genuinely diabolical.

In this wonderful social media age though, it feels there are small but loud group of fans who like to fixate on errors and ignore successes from coaches. Which frequently makes discussion nearly pointless and incredibly tedious.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well it coincides with some teams managing to hold a number of top quality internationals at 1 club without the spread across others. Take away Saracens who were cheating and spread the same players across more clubs and you potentially don't have the top level wins semis etc. But would that mean the quality of player was different?

4 different Prem teams made the SFs on 7 occasions across those seasons though. Sarries, Chiefs, Tigers and Wasps. Only Chiefs have made the SFs since ringfencing. They've done it once. That's a clear downturn across the board rather than at one club.

Randall shipped off to the a team.

https://twitter.com/EnglandRugby/status/1760009595660141028?t=KJngJe_ILHVQXiSCQWPD2w&s=19

No 7&1/2 wrote:Randall shipped off to the a team.

https://twitter.com/EnglandRugby/status/1760009595660141028?t=KJngJe_ILHVQXiSCQWPD2w&s=19

Technically returning to. He was named in that A team squad before Mitchell's injury.

Heyes considerably strengthens the TH options.

Ojomoh added. I'd presume he's likely to start at 13.

Muir dropping down from the main squad, must be in a good position to start that considering.

Ewels as well. That gives folk something to whine about until Daly is in the XV for Saturday at least.

Is Jack Walker injured or just completely out of favour do our Quins contingent know?

There's a decent looking side in that squad:

1.Baxter 2.Blamire 3.Heyes 4.Tuima 5.Isiekwe 6.Fisilau 7.Pearson 8.Barbeary
9.Randall 10.Atkinson 11.Muir 12.RMW/Hartley 13.Ojomoh 14.Murley 15.Hodge

16.Riley 17.Haffar 18.Harper 19.Bamber 20.Pepper 21.Englefield 22.Shillcock 23.OHC

I really hope Muir doesn't make that squad tbh. I really think he's just a good club player. When you have H-C and Sleightholme it just seems a waste.

Lawrence and Manu both fit for Scotland game

George Martin too. Prior to the Mitchell news things were looking good in that regard. Frustrating.

I'd start Cole at TH up against Schoeman. I think having Marle on the bench could work well too. Toonie tends to try to keep Fagerson on until 60 minutes at minimum. I'd quite fancy bringing Marler on early in the second half to try to pressure Fagerson with a fresh LH, maybe prompt an earlier substitution. Nel is still solid at the scrum but even less prominent than Genge around the park.

1.Genge 2.George 3.Cole 4.Itoje 5.Chessum 6.Roots 7.Underhill 8.Earl
9.Spencer 10.Ford 11.Daly 12.Lawrence 13.Slade 14.Freeman 15.Steward

16.Dan 17.Marler 18.Stuart 19.Martin 20.CCS 21.Care 22.F Smith 23.Manu

Something like that for me. Largely back some continuity from the XV in R1 and 2 but add the impact of Martin and Manu on the bench. With CCS and Dan being bright sparks already, that is 4 physical carriers to bring on. Whilst Martin and CCS are also brutal tacklers.

I tend to feel a specialist centre is a better bench option than a specialist winger. Worst case (from one injury not multiple injuries...) with that 23 would be a winger getting injured, Slade probably dropping into the back three. Whereas, if you put IFW on the bench for Manu, then Lawrence gets injured, you're looking at a Slade/Daly centre partnership. Given halfbacks are now so adept at dropping back for kick tennis, I prefer the extra cover in the midfield.

George Martin too. Prior to the Mitchell news things were looking good in that regard. Frustrating.

I'd start Cole at TH up against Schoeman. I think having Marle on the bench could work well too. Toonie tends to try to keep Fagerson on until 60 minutes at minimum. I'd quite fancy bringing Marler on early in the second half to try to pressure Fagerson with a fresh LH, maybe prompt an earlier substitution. Nel is still solid at the scrum but even less prominent than Genge around the park.

1.Genge 2.George 3.Cole 4.Itoje 5.Chessum 6.Roots 7.Underhill 8.Earl
9.Spencer 10.Ford 11.Daly 12.Lawrence 13.Slade 14.Freeman 15.Steward

16.Dan 17.Marler 18.Stuart 19.Martin 20.CCS 21.Care 22.F Smith 23.Manu

Something like that for me. Largely back some continuity from the XV in R1 and 2 but add the impact of Martin and Manu on the bench. With CCS and Dan being bright sparks already, that is 4 physical carriers to bring on. Whilst Martin and CCS are also brutal tacklers.

I tend to feel a specialist centre is a better bench option than a specialist winger. Worst case (from one injury not multiple injuries...) with that 23 would be a winger getting injured, Slade probably dropping into the back three. Whereas, if you put IFW on the bench for Manu, then Lawrence gets injured, you're looking at a Slade/Daly centre partnership. Given halfbacks are now so adept at dropping back for kick tennis, I prefer the extra cover in the midfield.

king_carlos wrote:

Is Jack Walker injured or just completely out of favour do our Quins contingent know?

There's a decent looking side in that squad:

1.Baxter 2.Blamire 3.Heyes 4.Tuima 5.Isiekwe 6.Fisilau 7.Pearson 8.Barbeary
9.Randall 10.Atkinson 11.Muir 12.RMW/Hartley 13.Ojomoh 14.Murley 15.Hodge

16.Riley 17.Haffar 18.Harper 19.Bamber 20.Pepper 21.Englefield 22.Shillcock 23.OHC

Walker is fit, I think, but the A squad is very much about the future and in that respect Quins can offer Riley (who is vying for the starting shirt this season), Musk, Head and Jibulu (who's looked at home in the senior side and could well be the best long term option out of all of them if he stays fit). I'd expect Walker to get the call up if to the Senior squad if, say, LCD and Dan picked up injuries, but they won't learn much putting him in the As.

Is Jibulu the front rower PF? Hes caught the eye everytime ive seen quins actually ...

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I watched bits of the Under-18s Academy League Final with Bath and Saints yesterday, one to watch Ben Agbenu, plays 13, serious speed, great feet and an eye for the opening. Ripped Bath apart when he came on. You heard it here first.

Wonder why the lad didn't start.  Bath fly half was good as well.

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Randall shipped off to the a team.

https://twitter.com/EnglandRugby/status/1760009595660141028?t=KJngJe_ILHVQXiSCQWPD2w&s=19

Technically returning to. He was named in that A team squad before Mitchell's injury.

Heyes considerably strengthens the TH options.

Ojomoh added. I'd presume he's likely to start at 13.

Muir dropping down from the main squad, must be in a good position to start that considering.

Ewels as well. That gives folk something to whine about until Daly is in the XV for Saturday at least.

Is Jack Walker injured or just completely out of favour do our Quins contingent know?

There's a decent looking side in that squad:

1.Baxter 2.Blamire 3.Heyes 4.Tuima 5.Isiekwe 6.Fisilau 7.Pearson 8.Barbeary
9.Randall 10.Atkinson 11.Muir 12.RMW/Hartley 13.Ojomoh 14.Murley 15.Hodge

16.Riley 17.Haffar 18.Harper 19.Bamber 20.Pepper 21.Englefield 22.Shillcock 23.OHC

Ewels is not a bad player but I'd have thought the likes of Bamber & Tuima would get more out of this match than a guy who already has 30 caps.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I really hope Muir doesn't make that squad tbh. I really think he's just a good club player. When you have H-C and Sleightholme it just seems a waste.

Muir isn't that young either, especially for a winger. Given his birthplace I assumed they'd be keen for Roebuck to feature against Portugal but not to be.

It's unclear whether this match will actually tie players. It's been variously announced as England A vs Portugal and England A vs Portugal A. Carlos Amada da Silva, president of the FPR, has now clarified that it is an A side. It sounds pretty ad hoc.

The meeting with England A is ‘a fantastic opportunity’ for the players, but the team that will take to the field on Sunday in Leicester is ‘not the Portuguese national rugby team’, clarified the president of the Federation on Monday.

‘It’s an ‘A’ selection, just like England’s, it’s not the main selection. Because it’s not an official match, the World Rugby rules for the call-up do not apply. Even if we wanted to, we couldn’t invoke the regulations to call professional players’, Carlos Amado da Silva told Lusa.
The call-up for the Portugal A team, announced by the Portuguese Rugby Federation (FPR) today includes only four players who started in Saturday’s victory over Romania (49-24) and it is ‘an expanded base that will undergo several changes’.

If it is Portugal A, then Portugal haven't registered a next senior representative team for 2024 though.

https://resources.worldrugby-rims.pulselive.com/worldrugby/document/2024/02/08/d3e35ce6-9340-4f92-8cfe-f9805a5924c2/NSNRT-2024-31-Jan-.pdf

That's published well after the game was announced.

It's always been a bit of an odd fixture. It was announced a long time ago, then went quiet for a long while, hasn't been pushed that much. The Portugal squad announcement has come late and is notably weak. It feels like this was planned by the RFU on the back of Portugal's RWC performance with the hope they could organise a useful Baabas style game during the massive fallow period for Prem clubs and maybe tie some players in the mean time. The actual logistics don't seem to he have been followed through too well though. I wouldn't be surprised if this match doesn't tie players after all.

Ewells gets bad press...but hes always a solid set piece lock and his captaincy always gets mentioned...maybe similar to Borthwick?

For an inexperienced squad maybe they just think hes a solid player and a good leader for the team and the younger members of the team.

Do we know if/where the A game is going to appear on TV?

Looks like it's online. Saw it mentioned that TNT had rights but can't see it listed. If it's not a game that ties players either it's starting to look a bit pointless.

Geordie wrote:Is Jibulu the front rower PF? Hes caught the eye everytime ive seen quins actually ...

That's the one. Shone in the JRWC and has carried that form into the senior side when given the chance

England A squad

1 Baxter
2 Blamire
3 Hayes
4 Tuima
5 Ewells (C)
6 Pearson
7 Pepper
8 Babeary

9 Randall
10 Atkinson
11 Muir
12 Ojomoh
13 Beard
14 Murley
15 Hodge

16 Rley
17 Haffar
18 Iosefa Scott
19 Bamber
20 Fisilau
21 Englfield
22 Shilcock
23 Hartley

That back row looks superb.

Mr Bounce wrote:That back row looks superb.

It does!

There alot to like about this side actually...hopefully a few of these can go on and have a long international career.

Ben Bamber is just sneaking in now aswell...regular starter for Sale now...21 year old i think...6'9 and 20+ stone.

The back row midfield and back 3 are all up there or possibly better than the full team.