England - The Next Episode

First topic message reminder :

The next stage of development....progression or failure....who can tell.

Is the A game televised?

Ive read its on the England youtube channel....

Geordie wrote:Ive read its on the England youtube channel....

Thanks Geordie

Geordie wrote:Ive read its on the England youtube channel....

Seen the same

No 7&1/2 wrote:The back row midfield and back 3 are all up there or possibly better than the full team.

In a couple of years' time you could imagine swapping Itoje and Chessum in at lock and Mitchell or JVP and a Smith in at 10 and not being disappointed seeing that as the senior side. There's some very decent talent coming through if England can develop it properly

No 7&1/2 wrote:The back row midfield and back 3 are all up there or possibly better than the full team.

Hold on midfield? I'll have what you've been drinking please. Atkinson is several leagues off Ford. Ojomoh and Beard aren't first choice at their respective clubs yet.

Back three is pretty tidy though I have doubts over Hodge at 15 at international level, think he might have to settle on the wing unless he can bulk up a touch, he's 6ft2 but less than 14 stone. Furbank is shorter but heavier. Hodge for his amazing running skills has had issues in contact before now.

That backrow has some serious potential, give it a year or two and they could easily be in the senior side as a unit.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The back row midfield and back 3 are all up there or possibly better than the full team.

Hold on midfield? I'll have what you've been drinking please. Atkinson is several leagues off Ford. Ojomoh and Beard aren't first choice at their respective clubs yet.

Back three is pretty tidy though I have doubts over Hodge at 15 at international level, think he might have to settle on the wing unless he can bulk up a touch, he's 6ft2 but less than 14 stone. Furbank is shorter but heavier. Hodge for his amazing running skills has had issues in contact before now.

That backrow has some serious potential, give it a year or two and they could easily be in the senior side as a unit.

Just seen this sorry. Was literally just looking at 12 13 yes personally I've never quite seen Atkinspn as anything more that an OK fly half. Think Hodge is going to be miles better than Furbank. Honestly wouldn't have changed that comment before today's game.

Some big choices coming up. Realistically the 6Ns is gone but does Borthwick go with some youngsters now?

Other than Carlos does anyone think Daly should be in team? I mean IFW might not have best kicking game but blimey he at least looks like he can make difference.

mountain man wrote:Other than Carlos does anyone think Daly should be in team? I mean IFW might not have best kicking game but blimey he at least looks like he can make difference.

Borthwick did load the bench for impact intentionally. IFW does fulfill that role which might count against him.

And yet might be even better with more time

Possibly but sometimes it's easier to make an impact off the bench when the opposition are tired. See the majority of Care's international career.

Daly had a good game, relatively speaking.

Another 2 tries for the team again. Cooking on gas.

lostinwales wrote:Daly had a good game, relatively speaking.

But is that enough? If England want to progress then I think need to look for more.

I do dislike the dislikes. Put names to them. Half my likes are just to show I ain't disliking things. And some of them I think are stupid.

Sack him now

https://twitter.com/RugbyPass/status/1761478770198786155?t=OviR4kNnlr4K1VJi7Jkqbw&s=19

Fair comments. Think it's fair to say that picking inexperienced coaches also hit hard.

Surely it's time to twist and go for it. Select young hungry players and get some handling drills into them. Feyi waboso was blooming exciting when he came on. We are in a low point for sure with so many work ons and compounded by a coach who is still a newbie when it comes to international experience. I fear he is out of his depth.

In time I can see the blitz defence working really well for this group of players. There are plenty of forwards who should suit that quick line speed and are strong tacklers. Especially across lock and back row.

The first try showed what I've been hoping they would add across this tournament. Smart and slickly run first phase moves. The individual handling errors, often compiled by panicked decisions after them prevented good attacking platforms going anywhere though. It was extremely frustrating. Even more so than the same fixture last 6N. There they dominated the kicking game but weren't producing much platform with the territory. Here they had the platform in the first half but squandered it.

The forwards weren't making yards carrying off 9 often enough. Not helped by an awful performance by both SHs. Still, too many one out carries were knocked back. Scotland's dominant tackle stats were noticeably high due to that. That's what I'd prioritise in the forwards for next week. Try to get ball carriers in.

Martin will surely start next week to aid that. I'd bring CCS in too. I do have concerns about his fitness as a starter at international level currently. By bringing someone such as Barbeary or Pearson onto the bench you could have the option of replacing him with another carrier early in the second half if he fades though. If all three of Itoje, Chessum and Martin start then they can get away without a lock sub. So having Underhill and Barbeary for instance on the same bench is feasible.

IFW was really promising. I'd start him opposite Lowe and see how he copes with the baptism of fire. I'd expect Steward to return as well given Ireland kick to contest far more frequently than Scotland.

king_carlos wrote:In time I can see the blitz defence working really well for this group of players. There are plenty of forwards who should suit that quick line speed and are strong tacklers. Especially across lock and back row.

The first try showed what I've been hoping they would add across this tournament. Smart and slickly run first phase moves. The individual handling errors, often compiled by panicked decisions after them prevented good attacking platforms going anywhere though. It was extremely frustrating. Even more so than the same fixture last 6N. There they dominated the kicking game but weren't producing much platform with the territory. Here they had the platform in the first half but squandered it.

The forwards weren't making yards carrying off 9 often enough. Not helped by an awful performance by both SHs. Still, too many one out carries were knocked back. Scotland's dominant tackle stats were noticeably high due to that. That's what I'd prioritise in the forwards for next week. Try to get ball carriers in.

Martin will surely start next week to aid that. I'd bring CCS in too. I do have concerns about his fitness as a starter at international level currently. By bringing someone such as Barbeary or Pearson onto the bench you could have the option of replacing him with another carrier early in the second half if he fades though. If all three of Itoje, Chessum and Martin start then they can get away without a lock sub. So having Underhill and Barbeary for instance on the same bench is feasible.

IFW was really promising. I'd start him opposite Lowe and see how he copes with the baptism of fire. I'd expect Steward to return as well given Ireland kick to contest far more frequently than Scotland.

I agree the crash ball carriers weren't consistently getting over the line and were knocked back quite a bit. And Care/Spencer were very slow digging the ball out and starting the next phase. Given the middling success why did England keep at it when it was clear Scotland knew exactly what was coming at them? And to try to play fast with Care/Spencer was never going to work. For me Care is the bigger disappointment because I thought he could still play with some pace.

The RFU need to be coming up with a plan now for who succeeds Borthwick and who is available.

Having seen the highlights or lowlights...Monye is correct.  Why are good players coming in to the squad and making basic errors.  

Is this Wigglesworth or The skills coach...or something else that's not clicking.

Lawrence was a disappointment in number of handling errors but he wasn't only one. Some good examples of poor passes and even worse catching from a number of players. Too hyped up?

Well another fallow week ahead(why?) so time to work on stuff but that was a game that England lost more than Scotland won although credit to Scotland they played well.

England need to stop the basic mistakes to give themselves even a hope in two weeks.

England A to look forward to today first.

Geordie wrote:England need to stop the basic mistakes to give themselves even a hope in two weeks.

Yep, even then a massive task but if they keep gifting opposition chances then it could get ugly. My wife who hates rugby so never watches was wondering what all the shouting was about as I screamed in frustration at tv.

No 7&1/2 wrote:England A to look forward to today first.

Hopefully Randall has a stormer so Borthwick considers him for senior side.

Ha. You don't pick a player like Randall to play the tactics we want.

True. Spencer gets on and immediately box kicks. FFS.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The RFU need to be coming up with a plan now for who succeeds Borthwick and who is available.

I'm not sure borthwick is the biggest problem. We just aren't producing test match animals anymore. Is the premiership too soft where players don't have to look after the ball as much as the rucks are generally less contested due to prem refs being a bit lenient to attacking teams? Does our academy system promote size above skill. Should we get really skillful players upto size rather than trying to get big lumps to be skillful?

If we look at the game yesterday, we huffed and puffed and as alluded too got rewards in the stats we just had a terrible day at the office where we were inaccurate in everything that we did. Perhaps the players should take that directly on the chin and accept they played poorly. They need a big performance full of aggression and pride in the shirt against ireland. We won't win against Ireland or France but we have to play better. 5th place is on the cards.

Hmm dunno. I think players are good enough but they are just not producing when it matters. Is it coaching? Probably a lot of it, but then again cannot do much if basic passing and catching is as bad as it was yesterday.
I hope the review is brutal for team, it needs to be.

If players simply aren't up to it then we're wasting time worrying about it. I think they are good enoug but whether it's mindset or gameplan(yep) something needs to change and soon.

I think there's enough quality knocking around. But say it's true,may as well entertain rather than this drabness.

I think we are obsessed with putting the best 15 players or 23 players on the field, your 15 best players do not necessarily make you best team.

Playing platers out of position in order to get them on the field has been tried many times, it usually fails.

Lawrence had a nightmare at 12, when he swapped with Slade, we had the same thing, neither is a 12. We would have been better playing Dingwall at 12 and Lawrence at 13, Dingwall can at least pass the ball. How many passes did Freeman or Daly receive when on the wing, I can remember Freeman only getting one, and that was man and ball. Daly might have got 2.

We desperately missed Mitchell, someone with the same type of speed and pass is desperately required, who I don't know, but not Care or Spencer. The nearest I have seen is Tom James who plays the same sort of game (the Saints way) but not quite at Mitchell's level. How is Warr playing, I see he is not in the A team 23?

What happened to the days when we had a 12 that could not only take it up but whistle a pass 25m out to the wing, fast and accurate. I cannot remember Ford looping around Lawrence or Slade once during the game, that says a lot as it is something he used to do all the time. We had to wait until Smith came on to see it happen and then Slade butchered it.

The forwards were, I thought okay, but just. Underhill produced 3 or 4 penalties, Earl tried hard but was ineffective, Roots was invisible for much of the match, the front 5 just average. The replacements not much better.

Ireland are so successful because they are based around one side and therefore have massive cohesion and have been together a long time.

France because they just produce fantastic players, always have.

Scotland have a few class players but again have played together under the same management for donkeys years.

We swap managers on a whim, listen to the press and basically do not have a system that allows us to become cohesive, to many clubs and styles. We need to get the clubs on board, a successful England team usually means more people through the gate, pick from just two or three clubs with odd exceptions for the super talented and get the clubs playing the way England play or vice versa. Cohesion is nearly everything.

Wales see England

Italy, need more players.

Rant over

Pepper straight away with a brain dead shoulder. Should have been a pen at least.

Lineout looks decent. Good throw and try from the back of the maul by Blamire.

2nd try. Pearson finds himself on the wing and getting more chance than Freeman was given in 80 mins yesterday.

Cracking try from Pearson.

This is going to be painful for Portugal.

Portugal handling is lovely

Oof. That scrum power.

lostinwales wrote:Portugal handling is lovely

It needs to be as they won't want to knock on after that scrum!

2 lovely touches by Ojomoh. Some.nice passesnout of tackles. Nice.

Heyes throwing someone's boot. Ultimate sh t housery

So I know it's at a level much lower than the first team but we're producing some excellent off loads and good handling skills with it. Some really nice fast passing and looking to get width. How long have these lads had together?

Pearson for winger

They're enjoying themselves out there.

And with that yellow for silly play against Randall it could be a rout of running rugby

No 7&1/2 wrote:So I know it's at a level much lower than the first team but we're producing some excellent off loads and good handling skills with it. Some really nice fast passing and looking to get width. How long have these lads had together?

A week. It's all about attitude

Where is it on tv?

Ouch. Not a sympathetic pass from Muir.

mountain man wrote:Where is it on tv?

Youtube. Rfu channel.