England - The Next Episode

First topic message reminder :

The next stage of development....progression or failure....who can tell.

Geordie wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:The problem KC is at the moment...we dont have a Manu, Danty or Aki coming through...:

Ma'asi-White? Bit raw at the minute but could develop into that style of centre.

Do we need to copy the other teams....why dont we be leaders for a change and develop a different style?

Because like it or not rugby is still a power game. Without it teams may get odd win, eg Japan over SA in RWC but ultimately size and power to get over gainline especially in centre still key ingredient to a successful team. Also a bigger, stronger player usually has advantage in defence all other things being equal.

Ben Youngs/Dan Cole podcast is good again this week. Cole is in the camp, while Youngs knows the current coaches and squad well enough to have a good sense of what's going on.

After the Scotland game, Youngs said he suspected the players weren't getting enough attacking reps. This was picked up and amplified by a number of media outlets, who used it as a stick to beat Borthwick. Cole mentioned he caught some grief in camp for his mate's comments.

Cole said England did indeed give more time to the attack before the Ireland game, which Youngs took as vindication for what he'd said. However, Cole seemed to suggest that, with all the handling errors, it was blindingly obvious what needed more work, so it wasn't a case of coaches needing a Ben Youngs insight.

Sounds a bit like England knew they had given priority to defence but had confidence attack could still click. When it didn't, it got more attention.

I'll have to check out that pod.
I do like the BBC rugby union daily/weekly ones. The nations pod ones are always really good. Tom English hilarious when he has to eat humble pie and in fairness it takes it well. This weeks is another cracker.

mountain man wrote:I'll have to check out that pod.
I do like the BBC rugby union daily/weekly ones. The nations pod ones are always really good. Tom English hilarious when he has to eat humble pie and in fairness it takes it well. This weeks is another cracker.

The effective lifespan in media for ex-players has become much shorter. Before social media, a player had enough old stories to spin out for years. You could use the same speech at dozens of rugby dinners, safe in the knowledge the audience was hearing your stories for the first time.

Now, everyone knows your best stories and anecdotes within two years. After that, ex players can only expect to get extended work in media if they are good analysts of the game (Austin Healey was an early example), engaging personalities (e.g. David Flatman and Jim Hamilton), or become media professionals (Tommy Bowe is a prominent example).

Ben Youngs and Dan Cole both have fresh stories and insights, so they will probably still be worth a listen up to next years Lions tour. After that, it depends on on whether they can, or want to, develop their schtick.

mountain man wrote:

Geordie wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:The problem KC is at the moment...we dont have a Manu, Danty or Aki coming through...:

Ma'asi-White? Bit raw at the minute but could develop into that style of centre.

Do we need to copy the other teams....why dont we be leaders for a change and develop a different style?

Because like it or not rugby is still a power game. Without it teams may get odd win, eg Japan over SA in RWC but ultimately size and power to get over gainline especially in centre still key ingredient to a successful team. Also a bigger, stronger player usually has advantage in defence all other things being equal.

Im the man who gets slated for wanting bigger and more powerful players in.... lol

Lawrence is powerful...if you need hard yakka carrying we find it elsewhere...ie the new props coming in, or CCS, or the locks coming through.

Rugby Fan wrote:
Ben Youngs and Dan Cole both have fresh stories and insights, so they will probably still be worth a listen up to next years Lions tour. After that, it depends on on whether they can, or want to, develop their schtick.

It'll be interesting to see what the current generation do once they retire. Several of them would make good coaches, I think. Farrell could in time be a very good coach, maybe Ford as well. Marler is already a media brand in his own right and I can see him roping in Cole for some of that. Not sure what Manu is equipped to do.

The interesting question will be what longevity people have as pundits. Kay and Healey have done a good job of staying current, a lot of the others less so. Add to that the influx of former Red Roses into the mix and the changing shape of competitions and the media picture is likely to change quite a bit in the next few years.

I know it has be brought up and is a moot point, but the more I see him the more I think that Earl could have been a fantastic inside centre for us. He is powerful, quick and explosive. He also seems to have decent enough hands, I mean I don't see him spiralling 20 yard passes, but his offloading is fine.

I wonder if we need to look earlier in the pathways and identify big but athletic back-rowers who have transferable attributes to fill this role. We have decent openside stocks but our potential 12s seem to lack the punch of someone like André Esterhuizen (who I really wish had an English grannie..)

Poorfour wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:
Ben Youngs and Dan Cole both have fresh stories and insights, so they will probably still be worth a listen up to next years Lions tour. After that, it depends on on whether they can, or want to, develop their schtick.

It'll be interesting to see what the current generation do once they retire. Several of them would make good coaches, I think. Farrell could in time be a very good coach, maybe Ford as well. Marler is already a media brand in his own right and I can see him roping in Cole for some of that. Not sure what Manu is equipped to do.

The interesting question will be what longevity people have as pundits. Kay and Healey have done a good job of staying current, a lot of the others less so. Add to that the influx of former Red Roses into the mix and the changing shape of competitions and the media picture is likely to change quite a bit in the next few years.

There was an interesting moment in the Saracens game. When Hugh Tizzard carried and made a mess of it...and Farrell berated him.  

Now Dallaglio and Healy had different opinions.  Dallaglio thought it was great leadership and showed how much he drives his team for the very best...but whilst Healy acknowledged that he also said it was a dangerous way to go on as it could drive ill feelings etc and if Farrell made a mistake Heally would punch him...

I tended to agree with Healy.  Being as driven as Farrell is great but can have negatives...maybe why he was so close with Eddie Jones...

But it did make me wonder how he would go in management....

Geordie wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:
Ben Youngs and Dan Cole both have fresh stories and insights, so they will probably still be worth a listen up to next years Lions tour. After that, it depends on on whether they can, or want to, develop their schtick.

It'll be interesting to see what the current generation do once they retire. Several of them would make good coaches, I think. Farrell could in time be a very good coach, maybe Ford as well. Marler is already a media brand in his own right and I can see him roping in Cole for some of that. Not sure what Manu is equipped to do.

The interesting question will be what longevity people have as pundits. Kay and Healey have done a good job of staying current, a lot of the others less so. Add to that the influx of former Red Roses into the mix and the changing shape of competitions and the media picture is likely to change quite a bit in the next few years.

There was an interesting moment in the Saracens game. When Hugh Tizzard carried and made a mess of it...and Farrell berated him.  

Now Dallaglio and Healy had different opinions.  Dallaglio thought it was great leadership and showed how much he drives his team for the very best...but whilst Healy acknowledged that he also said it was a dangerous way to go on as it could drive ill feelings etc and if Farrell made a mistake Heally would punch him...

I tended to agree with Healy.  Being as driven as Farrell is great but can have negatives...maybe why he was so close with Eddie Jones...

But it did make me wonder how he would go in management....

It's hard to gauge as you don't know what's said away form the pitch. If Farrell's put an arm around his shoulders and said some sort of consolatory words in the changing room then it might all be good.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:There was an interesting moment in the Saracens game. When Hugh Tizzard carried and made a mess of it...and Farrell berated him.  

Now Dallaglio and Healy had different opinions.  Dallaglio thought it was great leadership and showed how much he drives his team for the very best...but whilst Healy acknowledged that he also said it was a dangerous way to go on as it could drive ill feelings etc and if Farrell made a mistake Heally would punch him...

I tended to agree with Healy.  Being as driven as Farrell is great but can have negatives...maybe why he was so close with Eddie Jones...

But it did make me wonder how he would go in management....

It's hard to gauge as you don't know what's said away form the pitch. If Farrell's put an arm around his shoulders and said some sort of consolatory words in the changing room then it might all be good.

By some accounts, Farrell cuts a more relaxed figure off the the pitch these days. He seems that way in the post-match interview.



There is definitely a line. Dan Biggar copped a lot of flack when he berated Rio Dyer during the match against Scotland during last year's Six Nations. The move to France will be a test of Farrell's ability to build relationships. Generally speaking, though, he made a good impression on other players and coaches when he toured with the Lions, which are the other occasions he was out of his Saracens and England comfort zone.

Farrell just doing what a captain should. That is what all coaches and players of all nationalities have said about him, he drives standards. If I were a player with him I'd have no issue with a few harsh words if I messed up. Less snowflakes more winners is what is required on occassion.

Farrell been around long enough to know which players need a quiet word and which ones need a boot up the backside.

Yep, how Farrell gets spoken about by fans and how he's viewed by players and coaches has always been a world apart. From POC consistently bringing up how impressed he was during Faz's first Lions series. To Shaun Edwards naming Farrell as the one player he wishes he'd got to coach more. I've heard bad things about Farrell from very few actually in the game. The animosity and resultant vitriol came almost entirely from a particular sect of fans, was occasionally egged on by the lowest levels of punditry.

So Danny Care confirms his retirement...Manu definitely away....

Curious if Dan Cole does the tour in the summer...

I wonder if Dingwall will be retained...

Geordie wrote:So Danny Care confirms his retirement...Manu definitely away....

Curious if Dan Cole does the tour in the summer...

Dan has said he won't make himself unavailable but understands he might not be selected. Listening to his pod with Ben Youngs you can tell he still loves it but knows that at his age his last England game could have already been played.

The summer could be a good chance to trial some of the alternative prop options at a high level. Winning away in NZ is expected to be tough. Losing at home at Twickenham is more likely to see negative press. We've got some good props to test as well (though mainly on the LH side);

Genge, Obano, Rodd/Baxter/Brantingham/Haffar
Stuart, Heyes, Ioseffa-Scott/Painter/erm maybe Cole has got a good chance of making the tour

king_carlos wrote:Yep, how Farrell gets spoken about by fans and how he's viewed by players and coaches has always been a world apart. From POC consistently bringing up how impressed he was during Faz's first Lions series. To Shaun Edwards naming Farrell as the one player he wishes he'd got to coach more. I've heard bad things about Farrell from very few actually in the game. The animosity and resultant vitriol came almost entirely from a particular sect of fans, was occasionally egged on by the lowest levels of punditry.

Farrell being aggressive and conservative on the field, heavily PR coached off the field has made him difficult for some to like. Some elements of the media and fans are constantly obsessed with "running rugby' and quick to criticise those who aren't seen to be contributing to it.

It's unfair on a player who's been consistent for such a length of time. Certainly those off the pitch have been big fans and he's been a go to selection for a number of England managers and a club side that's not been shy about buying top end players it needs to win silverware.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:So Danny Care confirms his retirement...Manu definitely away....

Curious if Dan Cole does the tour in the summer...

Dan has said he won't make himself unavailable but understands he might not be selected

Yeah I think he'll be on the plane in that case. Not sure many of the kids would be ready for a trip to NZ...though he might want to see what Hayes can offer. The main group ofTight heads coming through are probably a year or 2 away just yet.

LH however is more imminent. Obano was excellent on Sunday put some huge tackles in aswell. Baxter might get a call, Brantingham is going to progess nicely at Saracens and Haffar looks a prospect aswell.

They'll be after the 3rd spot..as Genge and Marler for the moment have the first two...though Mitchell has shown that can change quite quickly...

Please no Iosefa Scott...he's not good enough.

What's Marler doing? Has he retired again or going to? Have to say he seems to be losing interest half the time, walks around pitch and not really going for it like he used to. Saturday a case in point I thought.
If England take a bunch of callow props on tour at least it'll be make or break time, show whether they have it or not and an away tour to NZ about a good a baptism of fire as can be had. SA excepted maybe.

Didnt Marler say he was retiring in 2025 and was available until then.

i dont think we need to take a bunch of kids to NZ

Cole playing well
Stuart im a big critic, but to his credit...he has slowly improved
Take a youngster as 3rd choice

LH's
Marler
Genge
A youngster

Not a bad position really...

My point is Cole and Marler are not going to RWC 2027, so if Borthwick takes them to NZ etc is it to give England best hope of a win on tour rather than build for next 6N and onwards.
It is a tricky situation, I can understand you want to go on tour with best available team but tours such as this are ideal times to try out players as really nothing on them.

Think of "Tour of Hell" to Aus back in 1998, they got slaughtered but likes of Wilkinson said it was making of him.

king_carlos wrote:Yep, how Farrell gets spoken about by fans and how he's viewed by players and coaches has always been a world apart. From POC consistently bringing up how impressed he was during Faz's first Lions series. To Shaun Edwards naming Farrell as the one player he wishes he'd got to coach more. I've heard bad things about Farrell from very few actually in the game. The animosity and resultant vitriol came almost entirely from a particular sect of fans, was occasionally egged on by the lowest levels of punditry.

I think England would benefit from having a better marketing team and PR manager that could push more positive narratives around key players like Farrell. SA do this kind of thing well in how they put forward players like Kolisi as some sort of deity unifying the country.

mountain man wrote:My point is Cole and Marler are not going to RWC 2027, so if Borthwick takes them to NZ etc is it to give England best hope of a win on tour rather than build for next 6N and onwards.
It is a tricky situation, I can understand you want to go on tour with best available team but tours such as this are ideal times to try out players as really nothing on them.

Think of "Tour of Hell" to Aus back in 1998, they got slaughtered but likes of Wilkinson said it was making of him.

But does that matter at all? Its evolution not revolution.
Win games and continue to develop the style...which has slowly come through in the 6n. As and when players retire or better ones come through you integrate them.

Tight head
TH is a problem as the kids are not ready yet...none of them are starting for their clubs, they barely get bench roles...so they're hardly ready for a tour to NZ!

Cole is first choice, Stuart is progessing. Hayes should travel to NZ as 3rd choice. Old Pro, Middle man, young kid to get some much needed exposure in a tough environment - No problems

Loosehead
Much better position
Marler solid older scrummaging option, Genge the middle man, and take Baxter as the young option..or Obano whos looking very impressive if he can stay injury free.

Radical overhaul isnt needed and not something SB is gonna do.

I'm just saying it as it is. England team will develop through evolution not revolution as was seen in 6N.
Stuart has had enough caps and rarely convinced but it's who else.

I'm just making point that Borthwick has a few calls to make and a tour albeit to a tough a place as can be is in fact the place to try them. If England get smashed in scrum but players come away better for it then that's a win. Better in a tour which has nothing really riding on it than 6N. We don't know yet whether Cole and Marler for example are touring.

Look at Wales, they've had a gruelling 6N but maybe Gatland laying seeds for next few years and on to RWC.

So who would you take in place of Marler and Cole?

Baxter looks a good prospect, and I guess Stuart is still in and Hayes. Obano maybe but again, I'm not sure on him.
However, England need to build for next 6N and beyond to RWC. Only way to do it is to try players. Obviously Borthwick and other coaches have a far better idea than any of us so we have to trust in them. I'm just saying I'd like to see some given a chance. Otherwise we get to situation where England were for literally years in centres when everyone just waited for Manu to be fit. That's not the way to progress a team.

I'll add by next 6N I'm hoping we'll see some of the U20s looked at for senior side, some good prospects there.

mountain man wrote:Baxter looks a good prospect, and I guess Stuart is still in and Hayes. Obano maybe but again, I'm not sure on him.
However, England need to build for next 6N and beyond to RWC. Only way to do it is to try players. Obviously Borthwick and other coaches have a far better idea than any of us so we have to trust in them. I'm just saying I'd like to see some given a chance. Otherwise we get to situation where England were for literally years in centres when everyone just waited for Manu to be fit. That's not the way to progress a team.

I'll add by next 6N I'm hoping we'll see some of the U20s looked at for senior side, some good prospects there.

Its 4 years till the world cup!

We've implement a new style, of attack AND defence...the players are all getting used to it slowly...replace individuals as and when...and the world cup will look after itself. Im more bothered about the NZ tour, then the AIs then the next 6n.

Dan Cole, Stuart and Hayes means you can build up Hayes experience...Dan then retires and you have Stuart and Hayes and then hopefully one of the kids, Fasogabon, Harper, Fjodour etc will be commanding a starting spot or at least starting regularly for their club

Same at Loosehead...Marler is great to have there, with Genge...then you can give Obano the exposure...or if you want to go with Baxter you do that.

As I said, build for next 6N and beyond to RWC. It's actually 3.5 years now and believe me the time will fly by. Only a limited number of Int games per year so it has to start immediately.

No....build for the NZ tour....then the AI's...then the 6n...

Except there are no games before NZ tour as far as I'm aware and what exactly is purpose of a summer series? I'd say it's a chance to play against different opposition and a chance to try out new players/combinations. I'd say summer series of less importance to AIs which are lesser than 6N.

Anyway, it's dry here so bike beckons!

Let's not forget that a few years ago we had a loosehead injury crisis and had both Moon and Hepburn for the Autumn Internationals. They did well and were solid club players, but were untested at that level.

Ideally we'd want to avoid this situation again. Get Baxter, Brantingham capped ASAP!

If you have Marler, Genge, with either Obano or Baxter as third squad option, with Brantingham and Haffar coming through also...thats more than most International teams will have available to them.

Tight head is a different matter...its a waiting game..but like buses we should have about 3/4/5 options coming through soon enough.

Lets not forget the new players SB has brought through...maybe a bit of stability in the front row is what we need.

mountain man wrote:Except there are no games before NZ tour as far as I'm aware and what exactly is purpose of a summer series? I'd say it's a chance to play against different opposition and a chance to try out new players/combinations. I'd say summer series of less importance to AIs which are lesser than 6N.

Anyway, it's dry here so bike beckons!

There's the Japan game before the NZ ones. We then play Japan at Twickenham during the AIs too. Same with NZ. So 5 of our next 7 tests will be against the ABs and Japan. With the Boks and Oz making up the other two. It feels like a good mix to see how these players are progressing.

Japan game is part of summer series so like I correctly mentioned, there are no games before then.

I'm really looking forward to Japan game, the pre match media be interesting no doubt. I reckon old Eddie be ultra complimentary about England.

Mr Bounce wrote:Let's not forget that a few years ago we had a loosehead injury crisis and had both Moon and Hepburn for the Autumn Internationals. They did well and were solid club players, but were untested at that level.

Ideally we'd want to avoid this situation again. Get Baxter, Brantingham capped ASAP!

There is an element of only being able to build so much depth I think it's key to note. Particularly in the front row and scrum-half. It's easier to bring players through elsewhere.

There are at least 3 second rows in most matchday 23s for instance. You can put one at blindside when bringing players through. Freeman may well end up at 13 but can come through on the wing. Plenty of FHs get their first international minutes alongside a more experienced 10, rather than replacing them. Lots of 10s cover FB, whilst several cover 12.

Whereas there are only two spots in the 23 and one on the pitch at LH, hooker, TH and SH. So depth can only go so far. The Boks are a great example there. Their recent forward pack has the best depth I think rugby has seen. Even then, their hooker experience is stacked into Marx and Mbonambi. When Marx was injured at the RWC, they could call up Dweba (a beast but he can't hit a barn door at the lineout) or use Fourie and van Staden out of position. Sometimes your best players are simply way ahead.

I generally think there are only two ways you really develop depth below two options in those positions. Either you get a freak collection of talent come through at the same time, so that your third option develop sufficiently at club level. France at hooker are a case study there. Bourgarit had 10 caps and 2 starts come the RWC. Marchand and Mauvaka, priorly Guirado, are so good they've taken the minutes. Bourgarit is just so good he could step in quicker than most though. That happens, but it's rare and requires a strong standard in you domestic comp from week to week so players don't learn on the job as much at the top level.

The other way is to have a stalwart who's just clinging on, though not quite what they were at their best, as third choice. Dane Coles for NZ at the recent RWC. Schalk Brits for the Boks in 2019.

When it comes to those 4 positions, there's generally a drop off for almost every team after their more experienced options though. It's damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. If you build for the future by picking Joe Heyes and he gets pinged for ending up on his face 4 times in a game, then it's a mistake not to pick Cole. If you pick Cole, then Heyes struggles in 2 years time instead, it's a mistake to have picked Cole.

It's a reason I really liked what France were doing by almost having specialist starters and bench options at TH for a bit. Sipili Falatea has pretty much exclusively played as an impact sub in pro rugby. Whilst Bamba shifted to a similar role after some early starts for France. Falatea is just a mountain who carried every few phases against tiring defenders. Whilst Bamba would come on with 20 minutes left and jackal at every other ruck. It was so effective for impact and allowed them to develop more players with a bit of international experience. Then both got injured simultaneously and Aldegheri came in to do the Bourgarit job of going, "I've played about 4 minutes of international rugby and I'm fine scrummaging at this level".

I'm increasingly sceptical of Stuart as an international starter, but I quite like him for a sub role like France were trialling though. I thought he was good in that regard in the Six Nations. He frequently had really high carry stats compared to his minutes played. He was getting over the gain line well around the fringes, which is something England really need in their pack.

For props in particular, the step up to international from club is a big one, and most of them face a choice between maintaining their dynamism around the park and getting found out in the scrum against top class opposition, or sacrificing that to get good at scrums.

Marler reinvented himself as a scrummaging prop after his first tour to SA. Mako stayed as a carrier and was always vulnerable against the best THs. Genge looks to be on the journey to be a better scrummager.

You occasionally get a prop who arrives fully formed or looks capable of handling both skill sets. Cole was never the most dynamic but was a top notch scrummager from very early. Sinckler in 2019 was managing to be good around the park while being reliable in the scrum, though he hasn't since recaptured that form. Going back further, Sheridan wasn't a great technical scrummager but was so powerful it didn't matter. Corbisiero could have been both if he'd not retired so early.

I don't know how much Heyes is being managed carefully while he matures and whether he's ready to step up. Baxter's time has also been managed but he looks increasingly ready to take up Marler's mantle at club level and I would like to see what he can do at International level sooner rather than later.

Heyes has had the same technical issue for a while now. He tends to "scrummage long" with his legs well behind him. He's monstrously strong, so has often overpowered weaker LHs to compensate for this. Setting long like that generally puts you in a powerful position if the scrum stays up, but if it goes down you end up flat on you face, the ref pings you. Whereas if you have your feet higher up (as Genge now does after scrummaging long when he was younger), then you're in a better position to keep the scrum up if under pressure early, or paint a picture to the ref that it wasn't your fault when it goes down. As more compact scrummager like Genge end up hinging at the waist when a scrum collapses, shoulders down and a**e up, but still on their feet. Which paints a better picture.

I think Genge and Marler are now very good at 'resetting' if they are under early pressure. Genge will sometimes look like he's about to collapse early, his upper body might drop below his hips, but he's now really good at readjusting, getting back into a good position without going to bind. Vitally from a refs perspective, Genge usually keeps his bind up even when under pressure. Which paints a good picture. Whereas Marler is excellent at being able to take a step back without losing his shape. If pressure comes through, he can go backwards but will keep in a textbook position and prevent everything going s**t.

Heyes is like many young props who are very strong. If he good LH can get him slightly out of position, he is liable to go down. If he goes back, he can lose his shape quickly. It's nothing you can't work beyond. I do feel Heyes has stalled the last two seasons though.

I rate Baxter. I think he'd be my third LH just ahead of Rodd and Obano.

king_carlos wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:Let's not forget that a few years ago we had a loosehead injury crisis and had both Moon and Hepburn for the Autumn Internationals. They did well and were solid club players, but were untested at that level.

Ideally we'd want to avoid this situation again. Get Baxter, Brantingham capped ASAP!

There is an element of only being able to build so much depth I think it's key to note. Particularly in the front row and scrum-half. It's easier to bring players through elsewhere.

There are at least 3 second rows in most matchday 23s for instance. You can put one at blindside when bringing players through. Freeman may well end up at 13 but can come through on the wing. Plenty of FHs get their first international minutes alongside a more experienced 10, rather than replacing them. Lots of 10s cover FB, whilst several cover 12.

Whereas there are only two spots in the 23 and one on the pitch at LH, hooker, TH and SH. So depth can only go so far. The Boks are a great example there. Their recent forward pack has the best depth I think rugby has seen. Even then, their hooker experience is stacked into Marx and Mbonambi. When Marx was injured at the RWC, they could call up Dweba (a beast but he can't hit a barn door at the lineout) or use Fourie and van Staden out of position. Sometimes your best players are simply way ahead.

I generally think there are only two ways you really develop depth below two options in those positions. Either you get a freak collection of talent come through at the same time, so that your third option develop sufficiently at club level. France at hooker are a case study there. Bourgarit had 10 caps and 2 starts come the RWC. Marchand and Mauvaka, priorly Guirado, are so good they've taken the minutes. Bourgarit is just so good he could step in quicker than most though. That happens, but it's rare and requires a strong standard in you domestic comp from week to week so players don't learn on the job as much at the top level.

The other way is to have a stalwart who's just clinging on, though not quite what they were at their best, as third choice. Dane Coles for NZ at the recent RWC. Schalk Brits for the Boks in 2019.

When it comes to those 4 positions, there's generally a drop off for almost every team after their more experienced options though. It's damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. If you build for the future by picking Joe Heyes and he gets pinged for ending up on his face 4 times in a game, then it's a mistake not to pick Cole. If you pick Cole, then Heyes struggles in 2 years time instead, it's a mistake to have picked Cole.

It's a reason I really liked what France were doing by almost having specialist starters and bench options at TH for a bit. Sipili Falatea has pretty much exclusively played as an impact sub in pro rugby. Whilst Bamba shifted to a similar role after some early starts for France. Falatea is just a mountain who carried every few phases against tiring defenders. Whilst Bamba would come on with 20 minutes left and jackal at every other ruck. It was so effective for impact and allowed them to develop more players with a bit of international experience. Then both got injured simultaneously and Aldegheri came in to do the Bourgarit job of going, "I've played about 4 minutes of international rugby and I'm fine scrummaging at this level".

I'm increasingly sceptical of Stuart as an international starter, but I quite like him for a sub role like France were trialling though. I thought he was good in that regard in the Six Nations. He frequently had really high carry stats compared to his minutes played. He was getting over the gain line well around the fringes, which is something England really need in their pack.

Ive actually mentioned this in some of the game threads...ive never seen Stuart carrying as much as he has, Frequently making good yards in heavy traffic. They clearly spotted something in his game that they are working on. Will he make the starting shirt his own...i agree im not sure he will...and once the young lads get up and running he might find himself struggling for a squad place...but that wont happen just yet. The biggest thing might be how long Cole can continue and at this level of performance.

king_carlos wrote:Heyes has had the same technical issue for a while now. He tends to "scrummage long" with his legs well behind him. He's monstrously strong, so has often overpowered weaker LHs to compensate for this. Setting long like that generally puts you in a powerful position if the scrum stays up, but if it goes down you end up flat on you face, the ref pings you. Whereas if you have your feet higher up (as Genge now does after scrummaging long when he was younger), then you're in a better position to keep the scrum up if under pressure early, or paint a picture to the ref that it wasn't your fault when it goes down. As more compact scrummager like Genge end up hinging at the waist when a scrum collapses, shoulders down and a**e up, but still on their feet. Which paints a better picture.

I think Genge and Marler are now very good at 'resetting' if they are under early pressure. Genge will sometimes look like he's about to collapse early, his upper body might drop below his hips, but he's now really good at readjusting, getting back into a good position without going to bind. Vitally from a refs perspective, Genge usually keeps his bind up even when under pressure. Which paints a good picture. Whereas Marler is excellent at being able to take a step back without losing his shape. If pressure comes through, he can go backwards but will keep in a textbook position and prevent everything going s**t.

Heyes is like many young props who are very strong. If he good LH can get him slightly out of position, he is liable to go down. If he goes back, he can lose his shape quickly. It's nothing you can't work beyond. I do feel Heyes has stalled the last two seasons though.

I rate Baxter. I think he'd be my third LH just ahead of Rodd and Obano.

Great analysis - thanks. I might pass that onto Ms Poorfour Maj, who is an aspiring prop. I agree with you about Baxter. I was talking to someone on the train to the Stoop whose son had played with him at school and said he's a lovely guy but an absolute monster once he's on the pitch - with the advantage that he's been training with Marler, Will Collier (one of the best scrummaging THs around) and Adam Jones (who is turning into a very accomplished scrum coach). He will need to go through the experience of being outfoxed by more experienced props, but everything about him suggests that if he stays fit he will be very, very good.

Geordie wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:Let's not forget that a few years ago we had a loosehead injury crisis and had both Moon and Hepburn for the Autumn Internationals. They did well and were solid club players, but were untested at that level.

Ideally we'd want to avoid this situation again. Get Baxter, Brantingham capped ASAP!

There is an element of only being able to build so much depth I think it's key to note. Particularly in the front row and scrum-half. It's easier to bring players through elsewhere.

There are at least 3 second rows in most matchday 23s for instance. You can put one at blindside when bringing players through. Freeman may well end up at 13 but can come through on the wing. Plenty of FHs get their first international minutes alongside a more experienced 10, rather than replacing them. Lots of 10s cover FB, whilst several cover 12.

Whereas there are only two spots in the 23 and one on the pitch at LH, hooker, TH and SH. So depth can only go so far. The Boks are a great example there. Their recent forward pack has the best depth I think rugby has seen. Even then, their hooker experience is stacked into Marx and Mbonambi. When Marx was injured at the RWC, they could call up Dweba (a beast but he can't hit a barn door at the lineout) or use Fourie and van Staden out of position. Sometimes your best players are simply way ahead.

I generally think there are only two ways you really develop depth below two options in those positions. Either you get a freak collection of talent come through at the same time, so that your third option develop sufficiently at club level. France at hooker are a case study there. Bourgarit had 10 caps and 2 starts come the RWC. Marchand and Mauvaka, priorly Guirado, are so good they've taken the minutes. Bourgarit is just so good he could step in quicker than most though. That happens, but it's rare and requires a strong standard in you domestic comp from week to week so players don't learn on the job as much at the top level.

The other way is to have a stalwart who's just clinging on, though not quite what they were at their best, as third choice. Dane Coles for NZ at the recent RWC. Schalk Brits for the Boks in 2019.

When it comes to those 4 positions, there's generally a drop off for almost every team after their more experienced options though. It's damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. If you build for the future by picking Joe Heyes and he gets pinged for ending up on his face 4 times in a game, then it's a mistake not to pick Cole. If you pick Cole, then Heyes struggles in 2 years time instead, it's a mistake to have picked Cole.

It's a reason I really liked what France were doing by almost having specialist starters and bench options at TH for a bit. Sipili Falatea has pretty much exclusively played as an impact sub in pro rugby. Whilst Bamba shifted to a similar role after some early starts for France. Falatea is just a mountain who carried every few phases against tiring defenders. Whilst Bamba would come on with 20 minutes left and jackal at every other ruck. It was so effective for impact and allowed them to develop more players with a bit of international experience. Then both got injured simultaneously and Aldegheri came in to do the Bourgarit job of going, "I've played about 4 minutes of international rugby and I'm fine scrummaging at this level".

I'm increasingly sceptical of Stuart as an international starter, but I quite like him for a sub role like France were trialling though. I thought he was good in that regard in the Six Nations. He frequently had really high carry stats compared to his minutes played. He was getting over the gain line well around the fringes, which is something England really need in their pack.

Ive actually mentioned this in some of the game threads...ive never seen Stuart carrying as much as he has, Frequently making good yards in heavy traffic. They clearly spotted something in his game that they are working on. Will he make the starting shirt his own...i agree im not sure he will...and once the young lads get up and running he might find himself struggling for a squad place...but that wont happen just yet. The biggest thing might be how long Cole can continue and at this level of performance.

I liked how we used our props in the 6N. We paired one scrum orientated prop with a more dynamic option. Cole and Marler would barely (if ever) touch the ball (Dan's top tip for not getting injured) but instead concentrate on clearing the breakdown and doing all the grunt work. Come scrum time they'd provide the platform. Genge and Stuart would then carry, often into traffic to try and free up Earl to attack weaker spots in the defence a bit further out. Good use of the resources.

I'd agree with KC that Heyes has indeed failed to kick on in the last couple of years which is a frustration. His scrum work has started to improve a little bit after Nicky Smith made him look foolish with a mixture of clever and not particularly legal tricks. He's such a big bloke (6ft4 and a shade under 20 stone) that if he's scrumming low he'll have to shove his feet back and any loosehead worth their salt at scrum time is unlikely to scrum high against him. He is better at keeping his balance now but it does need to improve further as he's 24 now and starting to come of an age where he needs to start laying down a marker.

I would like to see us mix it up Vs NZ in the summer. Name a strong side but rotate Obano and Heyes into the 23. Give Marler and Cole the summer off with a brief they'll be back in for the AIs as long as they show form.

Sounds like he needs to work on his hip flexibility… a little tongue in cheek, but it’s the key to a big prop getting low and staying stable.

Poorfour wrote:Sounds like he needs to work on his hip flexibility… a little tongue in cheek, but it’s the key to a big prop getting low and staying stable.

Probably not a bad shout. He's got Dan Cole to learn from and Nicky Smith is incoming for next season to provide a tough test every scrum session in training.

Danny Care to play for Barbarians against Fiji in summer.

This though caught the eye in article :

"Care will line up for the Baa-Baas alongside former England team-mates Ben Youngs, Jonathan Joseph and Zach Mercer."

Emphasis on the former maybe...

Ignore

Think you've fallen for an April Fools there mate...?

Very Possibly, was hungover like a badun yesterday...but I hope its true

mountain man wrote:Danny Care to play for Barbarians against Fiji in summer.

This though caught the eye in article :

"Care will line up for the Baa-Baas alongside former England team-mates Ben Youngs, Jonathan Joseph and Zach Mercer."

Emphasis on the former maybe...

Be more interesting if the game was against England but hey ho.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mountain man wrote:Danny Care to play for Barbarians against Fiji in summer.

This though caught the eye in article :

"Care will line up for the Baa-Baas alongside former England team-mates Ben Youngs, Jonathan Joseph and Zach Mercer."

Emphasis on the former maybe...

Be more interesting if the game was against England but hey ho.

Care AND Youngs together again?

Slightly off-course topic, but we have a longish break until the summer tour.

How long do we think Borthwick can stay as England head coach?

To date, Only Woodward has taken England to two World Cups. All other coaches have been retained for one (or none, in the case of Andy Robinson). Borthwick does seem on course to get a second. He's survived longer than Martin Johnson and Brian Ashton, who were also mid to late cycle appointments. Importantly, he signed a five year contract to take him through the next tournament. At this stage, it seems like it would take a real meltdown in the next two Six Nations for the RFU to consider changing horses.

Assuming Borthwick does take England to Australia in 2027, what next? Should he get an unprecedent third go? Will the decision ride entirely on how we perform, or should the RFU be doing some forward thinking now?

There must be a chance that England will need a new coach after the 2027 World Cup. If we win, Borthwick might decide to go out on a high, even though he's still young. If we flop, then the knives will be out. They might be out anyway, if it's a gallant failure.

The RFU has a dilemma. If Borthwick is going to get a third tournament, then he probably needs to be signed before the current contract expires. If not, then the RFU ought to be looking at candidates now. Especially so, if the next man has to be English, as that pool isn't getting a lot bigger.

It is an interesting discussion, RF.

I think it will just be performance based. It's important to remember that just before the Ireland game we were being told with utter certainty by our former fortune telling savant that England were going to come 5th or 6th and Borthwick would be fired by the Autumn. 

I'm generally a fan of giving coaches time. Particularly if you can see the route they are trying to take. Which I think has been the case with England, though others disagree. The kicking strategies have largely given them good territory stats. The blitz defence suits the personnel available very well and can be an absolute weapon. The set-piece has largely trended up. Whilst we then saw the additional playmaker brought in over the Six Nations, with the attack then opening up. Or more accurately, the attack trying to open up in the earlier rounds, squandering opportunities spectacularly against Scotland, then clicking against Ireland and France.

Thinking about next coaches. Farrell Snr may well be in the market after the next RWC. He'll have been in the Ireland job a long time. He's been extremely successful thus far. Ireland have two ready made replacements it would seem in ROG or Cullen though. Maybe a combination of both. A return to the England setup would seem the logical next step for him. Especially once he's also coached the Lions next summer. It would be his 'home' job after all and given how things ended with the Lancaster tenure he may well have an itch to scratch. The RFU pay very well too.

I still think McCall is the best coach in English club rugby. Whether he fancies international rugby is another discussion. He took that sabbatical around the time that Borthwick got the England job. He's also got an incredible record of mentoring excellent coaches. Farrell, Borthwick, Gustard and Sanderson have all gone onto success having worked with him. England wanted Peel for the scrum and forwards coach role, he has a great rep. Whilst I'd be surprised if Joe Shaw (Sarries head coach) and Kevin Sorrell (backs coach) don't go onto international coaching. Having McCall there for such a long time has created a useful little nursery for English coaches!

These things are tricky to judge. A good run through to 2027 and at the RWC itself would probably see Borthwick given the chance to go for 2031. If England miss out narrowly, he'd probably want another go. If they win it, he might want a shot at retaining it.

The question will be whether he seems to be running out of ideas by then or not - but one thing he has shown so far is the ability to coach different styles for different circumstances. The trick will be to adapt to the changing trends in the game and select the right personnel without taking performance off a cliff a la Eddie.

That might need to be set against who else is available. i don't see McCall or Baxter making any moves towards international coaching, and wouldn't want them in the top job until they'd been through an RWC cycle in a different role.

Farrell Snr may be available. Another candidate might be John Mitchell, depending a bit on how successful he is with both the Red Roses themselves and with developing coaches to succeed him. The other question in my mind is how long it will take Faz Jnr to shift be a credible coaching option. Definitely not for 2027, but there's an outside chance he would be a credible assistant for the 2031 cycle and I wouldn't be surprised to see him take the England job at some point in the 2030s