Scotland vs England | The Calcutta Cup

by bsando Tue 20 Feb 2024, 10:03 am

First topic message reminder :

Scotland vs England

Saturday 24th February 2024
Venue: Murrayfield
Kick-off: 4:45pm
Referee: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
TV Coverage: Live on BBC (UK) and Virgin Media (ROI)

Teams

Scotland

Kinghorn, Steyn, Jones, Tuipulotu, Van der Merwe, Russell (co-capt), White; Schoeman, Turner, Fagerson, Gilchrist, Cummings, Ritchie, Darge (co-capt), Dempsey.
Replacements: Ashman, Hepburn, Skinner, Christie, Horne, Healy, Redpath.

England

Furbank; Freeman, Slade, Lawrence, Daly; Ford, Care; Genge, George (capt), Cole, Itoje, Chessum, Roots, Underhill, Earl.
Replacements: Dan, Marler, Stuart, Martin, Cunningham-South, Spencer, F Smith, Feyi-Waboso.

by mountain man Fri 23 Feb 2024, 10:13 am

Do you mean Furbank kicking game as in essential he does it well and often or whether he's up to it? I'm hoping reason he's in for Steward is as an attacking threat as well as defensive.
I think Scotland will kick a lot(as does every side) but if Steward was FB they'd probably know to not kick to him as he is so good under high ball. Maybe Russell will target Furbank to see how he copes under pressure. His previous outings for Eng must be on his mind that is only natural and no doubt Murrayfield crowd be on his back should he drop a few.

by Geordie Fri 23 Feb 2024, 10:26 am

Ive pushed Furbanks claims many times on recent England threads. Hes a very talented player who is performing superbly this season again...hes added some muscle and looks an already quality player. His defence is generally rock solid aswell.

People keep going on about previous England appearances...that was then...hes got a second chance and may well take it with both hands. Steward is unlucky..but it shows SB has some cajonnes to make the call.

by Mcsweens Fri 23 Feb 2024, 10:43 am

There is always 1 game a season where Scotland under Townsend click.
I think, given the frustrations of the last few weeks, it might be this one.

by mountain man Fri 23 Feb 2024, 10:47 am

Geordie wrote:Ive pushed Furbanks claims many times on recent England threads. Hes a very talented player who is performing superbly this season again...hes added some muscle and looks an already quality player. His defence is generally rock solid aswell.

People keep going on about previous England appearances...that was then...hes got a second chance and may well take it with both hands. Steward is unlucky..but it shows SB has some cajonnes to make the call.

Furbank deserves his chance for sure. Just hope he delivers.

by Geordie Fri 23 Feb 2024, 10:54 am

mountain man wrote:
Geordie wrote:Ive pushed Furbanks claims many times on recent England threads. Hes a very talented player who is performing superbly this season again...hes added some muscle and looks an already quality player. His defence is generally rock solid aswell.

People keep going on about previous England appearances...that was then...hes got a second chance and may well take it with both hands. Steward is unlucky..but it shows SB has some cajonnes to make the call.

Furbank deserves his chance for sure. Just hope he delivers.

Absolutely...hes been given a second chance its up to him now.

by TJ Fri 23 Feb 2024, 11:00 am

Im not feeling good about this. I think England will get their revenge for the last few years and win comfortably

by No 7&1/2 Fri 23 Feb 2024, 11:19 am

I'm the opposite. Should be a fairly routine win for Scotland. Re Furbank it's important for him to get a good start. A fumble early doors and he will probably crumble.

by WELL-PAST-IT Fri 23 Feb 2024, 11:45 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm the opposite. Should be a fairly routine win for Scotland. Re Furbank it's important for him to get a good start. A fumble early doors and he will probably crumble.

Bearing in mind your previous comments about Furbank and England, I am surprised that you have not been taken to hospital after having an apoplectic fit seeing Steward dropped.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 23 Feb 2024, 11:53 am

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm the opposite. Should be a fairly routine win for Scotland. Re Furbank it's important for him to get a good start. A fumble early doors and he will probably crumble.

Bearing in mind your previous comments about Furbank and England, I am surprised that you have not been taken to hospital after having an apoplectic fit seeing Steward dropped.

What in the thought that I didn't think Steward would be dropped from the team?or that I preferred the combo or Daly Steward and Freeman to Steward furbank and Freeman?

I certainly don't like the make up of having Daly and Furbank together as I think both have gone to pieces mentally playing for us.

by formerly known as Sam Fri 23 Feb 2024, 12:01 pm

mountain man wrote:Do you mean Furbank kicking game as in essential he does it well and often or whether he's up to it? I'm hoping reason he's in for Steward is as an attacking threat as well as defensive.
I think Scotland will kick a lot(as does every side) but if Steward was FB they'd probably know to not kick to him as he is so good under high ball. Maybe Russell will target Furbank to see how he copes under pressure. His previous outings for Eng must be on his mind that is only natural and no doubt Murrayfield crowd be on his back should he drop a few.

Furbank's kicking game is likely to be key to us as I suspect one of the reasons he's in the side is to offer a more tactical kicking option from deep. There's no defensive benefit to having Furbank over Steward. You're replacing England's most solid fullback who is effectively another centre in attack with a secondary playmaker/flyhalf. We kicked well against Scotland last year and pinned them back but defended poorly at key times (Scotland are normally good at taking their chances).

The Murrayfield crowd will be on Furbank's back from minute 1. He's got to relax into it and back himself, if he second guesses it'll probably be his last England outing. There's no guarantee he starts if he plays well next week either as Borthwick might change the tactics again.

by mountain man Fri 23 Feb 2024, 12:12 pm

Well Furbank quicker than Steward I'd think, certainly off mark so that might help defensive positioning but I think Furbank is in for attack not defence. That must be only reason to drop Steward surely. Is his kicking better than Steward? I'd be surprised if that was reason they were swopped.

by TJ Fri 23 Feb 2024, 1:09 pm

but I think Furbank is in for attack not defence. That must be only reason to drop Steward surely.

That would be my guess

by WELL-PAST-IT Fri 23 Feb 2024, 1:10 pm

I think Furbank's kicking game is superior to Stewards in that it tends to be more subtle. He can belt it downfield for length , but he also kicks subtly for position, putting defenders in places tight to touch where they don't want to be, cross field kicking to wingers, grubbers behind defensive line (ones that actually get there and not hit defenders legs).

He is also a reliable place kicker with a very good average, I haven't checked but would guess that it is up with the best 10s. He again also brings leadership and manages to keep every one playing for 80 minutes. Saints are yet to lose a game when he has been captain and have won far more than I would be comfortable with coming back in the last 10 minutes to get the win.

by formerly known as Sam Fri 23 Feb 2024, 1:29 pm

mountain man wrote:Well Furbank quicker than Steward I'd think, certainly off mark so that might help defensive positioning but I think Furbank is in for attack not defence. That must be only reason to drop Steward surely. Is his kicking better than Steward? I'd be surprised if that was reason they were swopped.

He's quicker from a standing start but Steward rarely stands still at the back. He keeps moving, probably aware of the fact his size limits his acceleration. Steward has 30 odd caps and his positioning has only been exposed once Vs France in the 6N last year where Dupont had an armchair ride and used it to devastating effect. I doubt many fullbacks would have survived Dupont's tactical masterclass whilst their forwards were so far on the back foot. Furbank has looked shaky against far less. Steward's defence was excellent Vs Wales and Italy so far. The take from that little chip Vs Italy a real highlight (the one where he gets there just before three Italian chasers and then manages to skirt round the outside one to make a couple of metres before the support arrives.

Steward has a big range from the boot, Tigers have used him on a couple of occasions to go for goal from inside their half. He's not got the range of kicking that Doc mentions when talking about Furbank though and that could be key here. Scotland are playing with a playmaker at 15 and Kinghorn has a good kicking game. Steward's kicking tends to come in two forms, blast it long or big up and under. Furbank will offer more than that. He's been coached by Vesty a veritable master of the grubber kick (Fin Smith has started showing off some more of that technique himself this season) and that range from Furbank and Ford in the tactical battle will keep Scotland guessing.

by jimbopip Fri 23 Feb 2024, 1:31 pm

I was thinking about Felix Jones being brought on board the England coaching staff. The obvious conclusion would be that England would look to replicate the Boks' blitz defence. This seems to highlight three things for me.
The first two matches suggest that the England players haven't quite got to grips with it yet.
Even once they work out what they should be doing they are not as good, man for man , as the Boks.
You can bet Suella DeVille's place in the seventh circle of Hell that Toonie has spent every night since the Boks strangled the life out of Scotland at the World Cup planning how to unpick the Boks' Blitz defence.

Putting all of these ideas together; new defensive system, players not quite good enough for it, Toonie obsessively planning for the next time he encounters it....We're doomed. Doomed I say.

by bsando Fri 23 Feb 2024, 3:14 pm

jimbopip wrote:I was thinking about Felix Jones being brought on board the England coaching staff. The obvious conclusion would be that England would look to replicate the Boks' blitz defence. This seems to highlight three things for me.
The first two matches suggest that the England players haven't quite got to grips with it yet.
Even once they work out what they should be doing they are not as good, man for man , as the Boks.
You can bet Suella DeVille's place in the seventh circle of Hell that Toonie has spent every night since the Boks strangled the life out of Scotland at the World Cup planning how to unpick the Boks' Blitz defence.

Putting all of these ideas together; new defensive system, players not quite good enough for it, Toonie obsessively planning for the next time he encounters it....We're doomed. Doomed I say.

I thought this train of thought was going in a completely different direction.

by Poorfour Fri 23 Feb 2024, 4:11 pm

TJ wrote:
but I think Furbank is in for attack not defence. That must be only reason to drop Steward surely.

That would be my guess

Scotland have a quick back three and a fly half who can reach either wing with a pass or kick pass. Having a fullback who can change direction rapidly is probably a factor in the selection

by formerly known as Sam Fri 23 Feb 2024, 4:41 pm

Poorfour wrote:
TJ wrote:
but I think Furbank is in for attack not defence. That must be only reason to drop Steward surely.

That would be my guess

Scotland have a quick back three and a fly half who can reach either wing with a pass or kick pass. Having a fullback who can change direction rapidly is probably a factor in the selection

They had that last 6N and Steward didn't have problems with it then. Farrell and Marchant stuffing up the kick chase to give vdM an open field to run into and pick off some pretty dodgy cover tackles. Failing to put guards in place so White can beat Ben Curry and get over. Those were where the tries came from poor defensive reads last time. The winning one at the death Steward was on the other wing for having covered across and made a tackle on Steyn who'd been given one of the long passes to find himself in some space.

Much like we looked to wear Fiji down with Smith at fullback in the world cup I think we're going to do similar here.

by king_carlos Fri 23 Feb 2024, 6:06 pm

Russell in particular predominantly kicks long rather than to compete. Hammer it deep, sit back waiting for the return kick. Try to pull the opposition back field out of shape to find grass or isolate weaker kicker who has to put it out for a net gain. Finn is excellent at it these days. If they are expecting fewer contestable kicks then Furbank is the better tactical kicker for the kick tennis battle.

Especially with Mitchell injured. He's been really good at dropping into the backfield and acting as another kicking option when required. His high ball work has improved to the point that he isn't a weak link when doing so and he's a decent cover defender. Care, for his skills elsewhere, is a weaker kicker, poor defender and I don't think I can recall him taking a high ball. So he isn't likely to perform the same role. As good as Care can be with the ball in opposition 22, a big reason he's struggled to hold a starting shirt for any prolonged period at international level is being a bit of absentee without the ball by modern standards for scrum-halves. He's a throwback in that regard.

The more I think about it, the more I like Furbank as a tactical option for this matchup. I think his strengths suit how Scotland like to play. Whilst the way England under Borthwick have generally dealt with kicking games like Scotland's isn't on the cards with Mitchell and JvP both injured.

It may well result in Scotland simply kicking shorter and challenging Furbank to compete in the air more than they would against Steward. That in itself would represent the selection prompting a change in tactics from Russell though. It's an especially intriguing matchup with Blairhorn and Steyn returning. Which adds another kicker and two strong kick chasers to the Scotland back three.

by Yoda Fri 23 Feb 2024, 8:21 pm

I think England are expecting all sorts of tricks from their maestro and picking furbank is to counter crossfield kicks and kicks behind as he naturally gets around more quickly. He also offers a second playmaker role where we will look to counter and turn steyn and duan vdm. For once borthers has taken a gamble and it will either be a inspired tactic or easy pickings for russell. Perhaps he can use this game to gamble as we are not expecting to win.

by doctor_grey Fri 23 Feb 2024, 8:22 pm

Frankly, I am still a bit surprised Furbank was selected. I thought that despite really good form for Saints the last couple of years, his ship had likely sailed. He is amongst a pretty small number of players who took their work-ons from England seriously and delivered on it to a point where he is one of the best fullbacks in the Premiership. And a pretty handy stand-by 10 who, as WPI already mentioned, has a good record kicking at goal.

Obviously he is a very different animal than Steward. I almost wonder if this is an act of desperation to get the attack moving. Otherwise one doesn't sit one of the better players in the side.

I think it's a shame we won't have an opportunity to see a backline with Mitchell, Fin, Freeman, and Furbank all feeding off each other which I believe would bring out the best in some other players. And by the time Fin comes on, if he does, Spencer will have replaced Care, which I think is a highly sub-optimal match for Fin and anyone who wants to see the attack ramp up.

As a last thought, I get Daly is probably there due to his experience, but I still would have sat Daly and played Steward, even if out of position on the wing.

by TJ Fri 23 Feb 2024, 9:00 pm

England to blitz in defense? to me this is the key. SA showed in the WC how to keep Finn quiet blitzing the centres to cut out space. If they do that the obvious counter is the chip over the line - is that what Furbank is there to counter?

by king_carlos Fri 23 Feb 2024, 9:12 pm

TJ wrote:England to blitz in defense? to me this is the key. SA showed in the WC how to keep Finn quiet blitzing the centres to cut out space. If they do that the obvious counter is the chip over the line - is that what Furbank is there to counter?

They will almost certainly blitz, yes. Felix Jones, who coached the Boks defence alongside Nienaber, is now England defence coach. He's employing the same system. Obviously in a less developed stage though.

I'm curious to see if Care is used in a traditional sweepers role with Furbank sitting deeper as a kicking option.

Mitchell and Ford both regularly drop into the backfield to help dictate kick tennis, then the wingers can play higher when needed. Care isn't the same quality of kicker or cover defender and can't compete a high ball though. So I'd be surprised if he's used in the same role as Mitchell or JvP before injury. I'm wondering if we'll see Care sitting just behind defensive rucks and sweeping behind the d-line in the old school defensive role of a 9 before they were expected to do much without the ball. That way the dinks over the top may not force the backfield to all sit higher, which would in turn create room for Finn to find space behind them when kicking long.

by TJ Fri 23 Feb 2024, 9:35 pm

Its gonna be an interesting game. Finn is at the height of his powers playing well. He gets the most out of those around him. England have a blueprint to nullify him - as SA did. Can they do it? they have to take away the options - watch for how many times Scotland end up with Finn and 3 other backs in a diamond formation. Finn takes it either first or second receiver and has two close options and a wide one. SA were getting someone shooting up in the centres and cutting off the wide option and closing down the outside option forcing the ball back inside.

Also watch out for trick plays - Toonie loves a trick play particularly off a lineout

by formerly known as Sam Fri 23 Feb 2024, 10:28 pm

Yoda wrote:I think England are expecting all sorts of tricks from their maestro and picking furbank is to counter crossfield kicks

Probably not a great option for that. He's smaller than the Scottish wingers, he's got better acceleration than Steward but he's not fast by international back three standards and he's not dominant or close to in the air.

The England scramble defence is much better and closed down Wales well the couple of times they managed to get to the wide channel past the blitz. Something that didn't work as well Vs Italy.

by doctor_grey Fri 23 Feb 2024, 10:42 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Yoda wrote:I think England are expecting all sorts of tricks from their maestro and picking furbank is to counter crossfield kicks

Probably not a great option for that. He's smaller than the Scottish wingers, he's got better acceleration than Steward but he's not fast by international back three standards and he's not dominant or close to in the air.

The England scramble defence is much better and closed down Wales well the couple of times they managed to get to the wide channel past the blitz. Something that didn't work as well Vs Italy.

I actually think that may be a big piece of it. Furbank is quick, reads the ball well, and can take the kick and return it pretty much where he needs to put it.

As said above - he does it for Saints, and now he needs to prove it for England.

by tigertattie Sat 24 Feb 2024, 12:23 am

Big questions for this game are:

How many minutes of this game will Scotland play?
Who will get a yellow card first, Gilchrist or Genge?
Why is Healy on the bench when he won’t get on?

by **George Carlin** Sat 24 Feb 2024, 6:34 am

Looking forward to this.

For those who don't see Furbank much, he's very good indeed - a complete footballer with a fly half's skillset and a natural inclination to attack. Hard to read this as anything more than Borthwick telling their players to keep it in hand. Not as solid defensively as Steward but offers more overall, probably and Furbank's own tactical kicking is never anything I've identified as a weakness.

Luckily for England, Darcy Graham is now out for the rest of the tournament. Seaman Steyn is less electric but probably better defensively and he loves a Russell crossfield kick.

by Heaf Sat 24 Feb 2024, 11:12 am

I'm just hoping we don't have any contentious decisions or non-decisions from our favourite TMO - still don't understand how he keeps getting the England gigs ...

by mountain man Sat 24 Feb 2024, 11:16 am

Yeah well Jonker, it rhymes with plonker for a reason.

by Yoda Sat 24 Feb 2024, 11:24 am

mountain man wrote:Yeah well Jonker, it rhymes with plonker for a reason.

I'm sure any of us England fans can complain after the debacle last round when two grown men who aren't registered blind couldn't award the Scottish try. I'm sure junker will we equally poor for both sides. Andrew brace seems like a decent ref so here's hoping he doesn't need juncker for anything.

by doctor_grey Sat 24 Feb 2024, 11:39 am

Heaf wrote:I'm just hoping we don't have any contentious decisions or non-decisions from our favourite TMO - still don't understand how he keeps getting the England gigs ...

At least there's a point everyone (including the ref, I am sure) agree with!

by mountain man Sat 24 Feb 2024, 11:42 am

Jonker though does have a habit of forensically checking any and all England indiscretions. Perhaps he's right but it's odd it's only consistantly him who always finds issue with Englnad more than any other team. Other TMOs not so much.

Anyway, this all probably comes over as getting excuses in before game but it is what it is. Nothing will convince me he isn't biased. Subconsciously or not.

by doctor_grey Sat 24 Feb 2024, 12:17 pm

Finn Russell in The Telegraph wrote:“I really expected Steward to play,” said the fly-half. “I expected them to go with the blitz defence and go hard at the aerial battle, which would be similar to South Africa.

“I think picking Furbank means they might play a bit more; whether that’s due to having Care at No 9 and having Lawrence back as well . Their style of play might be a bit different so we’ll have to be ready for everything.

“Furbank is a brilliant player I’ve chatted to Rory Hutchinson about him and he talks him up, being his team-mate [at Northampton Saints], so it’s a slightly different team to what we expected but we’ve got to be ready for anything, whether it’s that kicking game with the hard blitz defence or they’re looking to play a little bit. It’s meant to be dry so if both teams are looking to run it that should help a bit.”

by No 7&1/2 Sat 24 Feb 2024, 12:36 pm

Havent SA played le Roux at full back quite a lot?

by mountain man Sat 24 Feb 2024, 1:18 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Havent SA played le Roux at full back quite a lot?

Well yes he was for a long time their starting 15 but what's ya point?

by No 7&1/2 Sat 24 Feb 2024, 1:23 pm

Russell's comments above. His assumption that Furbank who to me has quite alot of similarities to le Roux means Borthwick isn't trying to make us play like SA lite.

by TJ Sat 24 Feb 2024, 1:50 pm

Doomed I tell ya - doomed

by **NeilyBroon** Sat 24 Feb 2024, 2:59 pm

England by 5 I reckon.

Would very much like to be proved wrong.

by Heaf Sat 24 Feb 2024, 3:04 pm

I think there's a lot of spoofing going on here ....

by mountain man Sat 24 Feb 2024, 3:06 pm

NeilyBroon wrote:England by 5 I reckon.

Would very much like to be proved wrong.

Nah, England by around half past 6

by No 7&1/2 Sat 24 Feb 2024, 3:15 pm

Bit unsure on score prediction. Reckon it'll be fairly comfortable for Scotland but if we get our scrum going it could make it seem a bit closer. Probably Scotland 26 17 england

by mountain man Sat 24 Feb 2024, 3:22 pm

I never make score predictions, pretty pointless excuse the pun. I do think Scotland are favourites though.

by Heaf Sat 24 Feb 2024, 3:27 pm

I just have a horrible feeling the England defence will be all over the place and the Scotland backs will have a field-day ...

by No 7&1/2 Sat 24 Feb 2024, 4:18 pm

Slade daly certainly need to improve their understanding of each other. Lawrence massively deserved to have a starting place before injury but he's going to have to be hitting the ground running today. Hell of a player just hope he gets a run to show it when he previously and Dingwall now haven't.

by doctor_grey Sat 24 Feb 2024, 4:26 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Slade daly certainly need to improve their understanding of each other. Lawrence massively deserved to have a starting place before injury but he's going to have to be hitting the ground running today. Hell of a player just hope he gets a run to show it when he previously and Dingwall now haven't.

Not his fault if he only has three or four touches in the game. Part of the plan has got to be to feed him the ball - a lot. If he doesn't get it done then at least we know. But for me the question is how well he does and if that is good enough to keep the jersey, which I certainly hope.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 24 Feb 2024, 4:50 pm

Here we go. Base the game in the scrum and we stand a decent chance.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 24 Feb 2024, 4:50 pm

Nice move.

by Heaf Sat 24 Feb 2024, 4:53 pm

Let's hope we don't see the usual good start followed by a drop off at 10 mins

by king_carlos Sat 24 Feb 2024, 4:54 pm

That's more like Daly at his best. That's what he added at 15 when England were good under Jones. He'd run great lines around the 13 channel, then made good decisions on when to distribute, with good execution. Lovely to see.

Slick first phase moves like that are what Tigers under Borthwick eventually built on top of the defence, scrum and maul. It's also something that Felix Jones helped design for the Boks. Certainly promising.

by Sponsored content