Ireland. The unnecessary chaff in our prospective RWC squad. The truth as I see it.

First topic message reminder :

Players who should not travel. Players who are there for reasons, other than a system based on meritocracy. And some players. who are there, because we are desperate and seemingly - have not had time to find their adequate, backup replacements, in time for the RWC. Players, who could be easily replaced over Summer - without adversely affecting our squads' depth-of-strength.

Andrew Trimble – An average provincial player, who has never really shown for his country. Had the chance 4 years ago, when he was potentially better than Bowe. Since been passed out and now obsolete at International level. Earls (Wing,FB & Centre), Fitzgerald (Wing & Centre) and McFadden (Wing & Centre) – are far superior and proven players at the top-end. So no need for him.

Paddy Wallace - see Trimble. But even worse. His time is long gone on the international stage. We don't need him to waste a vital space on the plane, or on the bench as a backup 10. Or as an average international centre anymore. I believe Kidney has seen the light there. Check his non-usage of him in the 6-N. Goodbye Paddy. Thanks a lot.

Dennis Leamy. Was good. Really good at 6 or 8. Close to World class in his pomp. A huge favourite of mine in the past. But, has never been the same, after an injury and a long lay-off. Munster think so too and that's good enough for me.

John Hayes. Love im. Love what he's done for us over the years. But, do I really need to explain? The hulk that is Buckley - on the plane.

Horan. No comment.

If and when, any of those players make the plane, expect the SH and better NH teams – to cut a wry smile. Me? I'm just embarrassed some are still in the mix for selection at this stage.

This post may seem Leinster-centric to some with blind vision. But. It's not. It's just the truth.

OK. No Shaggy. Even if he is presently better, played at a higher level for 10 years, won 2 x HC Cups in the last 3 years and has proven to be more effective than Fitzgerald, Trimble, Earls & Bowe – in reality. And he has just had a knee-operation. Will that serve to give some balance to this statement?

TBH. I don’t care. It is still all true. If you actually care about our country's hopes in the RWC and step back, be objective and think about it – I hope you will see it too.

You all know it makes sense. I pray Kidney does too. Leave them behind Deccie. Let them go and let's grow. Prove it in the Summer Tests.

Why not? I don't see how much of a part either will play considering the form they are in and the alternatives available.

Trimble, Earls, Bowe, McFadden, Murphy, Jones I would have before Fitz
SOB, Heaslip, Ferris, Ryan, Wallace, Jennings I would have before Leamy

So (from a true Ulsterman) the centers of choice are Spence and Cave. I fully agree with these choices as they are the best centers in Ulster.

iHumph is the OH, so where does that leave Paddy?

Sorry guys, but everyone on form, Paddy aint getting near the Ulster center, so why should he get on the Irish team??

If Spence and Cave are the centres, Ulster will not be anywhere near to what they achieved last year and the back three will get very little ball.

Pete,

Fitzgerald still has class that's why and had shoots of real improvement towards the end of the season.

Leamy because one injury in the backrow, very likely, and he is right back in.

Boyne wrote:So (from a true Ulsterman) the centers of choice are Spence and Cave. I fully agree with these choices as they are the best centers in Ulster.

iHumph is the OH, so where does that leave Paddy?

Sorry guys, but everyone on form, Paddy aint getting near the Ulster center, so why should he get on the Irish team??

Surely you mean everyone on form but Paddy off form!

If EVERYONE is on form then Wallace would probably make the team.

Sorry MBTGOG but I don't agree with any of that. Spence and Cave are a really exciting combo and with Luke Marshall there too Paddy will have a fight on his hands for the 12 shirt at Ulster. I don't think this should effect his WC chances though.

Fitzgerald and Leamy don't deserve to be on the plane in my opinion and there are several better players available.

Rodders - neither Spence nor Cave can distribute. Marshall/Wallace are your options at 12.

Rodders,

Spence is not an inside centre. His skill set is nowhere near close enough to what is needed in that position. His vision and range of passing and offloading is very limited.

If anyone takes Wallace's place, it will be Marshall as he suits the position better than Spence and just as importantly suits the game plan much better.


On the subject of Leamy, what I said is that there is an injury, he is clearly the next choice.

red_stag wrote:Rodders - neither Spence nor Cave can distribute. Marshall/Wallace are your options at 12.

Neither can D'arcy but he did alright

Actually don't agree with that Spence and Cave have looked superb together towards the end of the season. There'll be a real fight for starting places in the Ulster midfield next season.

MBTGOG wrote:

Spence is not an inside centre. His skill set is nowhere near close enough to what is needed in that position. His vision and range of passing and offloading is very limited.

Possibly Spence is not a 12 but some of his best performances have come when he played there last season. The lad is only 20 and has played one season so I'll hold judgement on his skill set and limitations, however he's looked pretty complete to me from what I've seen.

Spence and Cave played only 3 games together if I'm not very much mistaken. They did well against weak Connacht and Dragons midfield where Spence could use his direct running effectively.

Against Leinster though, his limited style was really shown up. Ulster will do their best when either Spence or Cave are outside a creative centre.

I think Spence was one of our best players against Leinster. His physicality really stood out and he's one of the few players I've seen to stop SOB in his tracks this season. He did miss a tackle on McFadden but other than that he had a good game.

rodders,

I'd have to look at it again but he looked physically overpowered and what had worked for him previous weeks failed this time around.

His best performances have been in the outside centre position where he is not asked to do as much and his distribution is not as exposed though that certainly needs to be improved.

Marshal is definitely the future at 12. It's Cave who looks like he will miss out.

I think it would be perfectly reasonable to question why McLaughlin wouldn't get called up ahead of Leamy.

MBTGOG wrote:rodders,

I'd have to look at it again but he looked physically overpowered and what had worked for him previous weeks failed this time around.

His best performances have been in the outside centre position where he is not asked to do as much and his distribution is not as exposed though that certainly needs to be improved.

Marshal is definitely the future at 12. It's Cave who looks like he will miss out.

MBTGOG I can't agree with the critcism of Spence's distribution. Look at the try he set up against the Saxons, playing at 12. Our current international 12 is one of the worst distributers around.

In terms of being overpowered, you'd be hard pushed to find a back in Ireland as physically strong as Spence right now. He's naturally bigger and stronger than any of D'arcy, BOD, Wallace, Earls, McFadden and co.

I don't think he's experienced enough for the WC yet but some of the comments about him being limited and overpowered are simple nonsence. He was probably the most consistant Irish 3/4 last season.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I think it would be perfectly reasonable to question why McLaughlin wouldn't get called up ahead of Leamy.

Leamy covers 6/8 which I think is more use than 6/4 where I think Ryan will be McLaughlins rival. McLaughlin only has about 3 caps compared to the dozens Leamy has. Neither player is a starter for their region nor has a particularly impressive vein of form.

On the point of distribution, I really don't think it's nonsense. It's just something he doesn't have in his locker and it something he admits himself. Very like Trimble in that regard.

On the point of being overpowered, I stand by what I said because he was running into a clogged midfield against strong centres and backrowers and they knew exactly what he was going to do.

MBTGOG wrote:Spence and Cave played only 3 games together if I'm not very much mistaken. They did well against weak Connacht and Dragons midfield where Spence could use his direct running effectively.

Against Leinster though, his limited style was really shown up. Ulster will do their best when either Spence or Cave are outside a creative centre.

Absolutely 100% spot on. Some Ulster fans are saying they'd hope it will be Spence and Cave at the start of next season, but why go up a blind alley? the sooner we get Marshall through the better.

We really missed Wallace big time against Leinster. He gives so much more shape and variety to our attacking play.

Boyne

You will find very few Ulstermen touting the Spence to replace Wallace line. Everyone on form and Paddy is still our 12. Nevin Spence isnt a 12 and the Cave/Spence partnership whilst useful lacks creativity. It was great against the Dragons but virtually useless against Leinster.

Marshall i hope will really put pressure on Paddy's place but seeing as i expect Marshall to wear Green within 18 months thats hardly surprising. (He has much more potential than Spence or Cave). In terms of how their respective provincial seasons went then McFadden has more chance of displacing Fitz than he does Paddy. Internationally speaking both have had troubled seasons.

I also dont think we can say that SPences current limitations will dog him throughout his career but it is up to him to be aware of what they are and work to eradicate them

Boyne wrote:Guys, in terms of Wallace, I was sure he lost his place at the end of the season. Injury may have alot to do with it... but answer this one..

Who, in a perfect world, picking on form (well, lets say the current picks) for Ulster in the center..?

To repeat he did not lose his place.
Ulster first choice centres are Wallace and Spence. They are being pressed very hard by Marshall and Cave.

I expect Ulsters bench to be Marshall, Marshall and Cave when everyone is available.

So it is up in the air as far as I can see whether or not Wallace would even get his place on the Ulster team.

But, yeah, bring him the NZ. No bother.

Stag-
Leamy has more experience
Leamy has leadership qualities
Leamy is versatile in a more useful positions

McLaughlin is useful as a backrow jumper verygood at stealing opposition ball
McLaughlin has better discipline
McLaughlin has also played 8 though I admit very rarely
mcLaughlin while not in great form is in better form than Leamy IMO

I also dont think we can say that SPences current limitations will dog him throughout his career but it is up to him to be aware of what they are and work to eradicate them

We certainly can say that if he does enhance/refine those areas of his game. I believe he will. I don't think he'll ever be a wonderful passer of the ball but if they work it so that his passes only ever have to be short or intermediate and he works on his off-loading game, he'll be a very good player.

MBTGOG - PM sent to you

Not really Boyne

If Marshall produces next season then he will challenge paddy. But other than that Wallace is our first choice 12. Unlike McFadden who is 2nd choice at provincial level

Boyne,

What do you not understand about the fact that Wallace was not droped and that he is the man in possesion of the number 12 shirt at Ulster. We do have a very talented player coming through in Marshall but he currently does not hold down a starting position.

Therefore the following is factually incorrect.

Boyne wrote:So it is up in the air as far as I can see whether or not Wallace would even get his place on the Ulster team.

Actually there is some really questionable stuff being spoken on this thread, and Munsty and Stag are the only ones who seem to have it right.

There's no way either Spence and Cave should be anywhere near our final 30-man WC squad. There's ABSOLUTELY no way Ulster have reached the stage where we can afford to leave Wallace out in a game of consequence. He'd be straight in, and must be until Marshall is ready to replace him. There's no way Spence has the skillset to be anything more than an average inside centre and we must focus on bringing him through at either 13 or on the wing. Spence does no have the level of distribution skills needed to be a 12.

A 12 should be a relatively unselfish player at the end of the day; able to take contact when necessary, able to make yards in tight spaces but the most important part of his job is his passing and offloading ability. A good inside centre must make his outside centre look good.

Now ask yourself; why has Nevin Spence looked good this season for Ulster? Why has Darren Cave looked good in the past?

A 10 and a 12 who have helped him out a lot. We need that creative axis at Ulster, regardless of what Ireland need

Notch I am not suggesting Spence is a 12 and successer to Wallace. I don't not agree that he can't play 12 or is a poor distributer.

The guy is only 20 and has played one season so to pick apart his limitations is pretty harsh.

He has less "limitations" than many of the backs in current Irish 1st XV.

Despite Nevin Spence being very good this season, I'd say he's a player who could be replaced without the team losing too much. Right now, at Ulster, there's no real replacement for Wallace and if we lose him we are nowhere near as good a team.

Rodders,

He can play 12 but is limited there and limits the team around him, look at the Irish U20s as a good example.

He can do a decent job at 12 but with analysis will be found out very quickly and nullified. On the other hand he is a very good 13 with plenty of room to still improve there so why waste that.

Also, putting him at 12 gives less chance to Marshall to get time and wastes the time the team has left to use Wallace's talents.

roddersm wrote:Notch I am not suggesting Spence is a 12 and successer to Wallace. I don't not agree that he can't play 12 or is a poor distributer.

The guy is only 20 and has played one season so to pick apart his limitations is pretty harsh.

He has less "limitations" than many of the backs in current Irish 1st XV.

Look I'm a massive fan of Spence.

I'm not picking on his limitations, I'm just trying to bring some reality to the discussion. There have been people saying he would take Wallace's place at Ulster, that he would add more to our World Cup squad. It's the classic getting carried away with one great debut season. Spence has definitely earned the right to be considered part of the first choice backline for Ulster- but only at 13, and we all appreciate that he is a lot less effective unless he has creative players around him that make up for his weaknesses.

He has a lot of time to work on those and become a better player, but until he does he won't play centre for Ireland. I'm a fan, but he's not as far along in his development as a player as people are suggesting.

As Munsty says, if Spence works on his offloading game and his decision making (when to pass, when to offload, when to power into contact) he'll be a fantastic centre.

Notch I think you are seriously downplaying Spence contribution this season. He should be the 1st center down on the team sheet. He's a far more complete player than either Cave or Wallace and on the evidence of the U-20's Marshall is not ready yet.

It was Cave who struggled against Leinster and not Spence. Wallace has been patchy this season and will need to up his game next year.

Am I saying Spence should go to the WC? No. I don't think he's got enough experience but he's not as limited as some are making out. Certainly he has a more rounded skill set than Gordon D'arcy.

roddersm wrote:Notch I think you are seriously downplaying Spence contribution this season. He should be the 1st center down on the team sheet. He's a far more complete player than either Cave or Wallace... Certainly he has a more rounded skill set than Gordon D'arcy.

Rodders, as much as I want to agree with you... I can't. I think none of that is true at all. Cave and Wallace are much more complete centres, with their footballing ability. Spence is very physical, strong and fast, has a great eye for a break and is a superb defender but when he's asked to pass or kick it is a problem. He still has so much to learn before he becomes a key player to Ulster, he still needs to work on his core skills, and the key to our attack this year has been the contribution Humphreys and Wallace in getting the best out of him, in committing defenders and creating the gaps for him to run into and feeding him the ball on the gainline.

Did Cave do much against Leinster? No. Did his 12 help him? No, Spence tried to take it on himself a lot and made not much gainline success because there were equally strong men who knew exactly how to deal with him. And then attacked the breakdown. They stymied our attack utterly. Compare that to the way we attacked with ball in hand at the RDS with Wallace at 12. We threatened them from everywhere.

And Gordon D'Arcy is a selfish 12 whose first instict i to take on the defence but he has shown he can offload and pass the ball well for Leinster.

As utterly delighted as I was to see Nevin win the Young Player of the Year award, we do ourselves no favours by rushing to make him out to be better than he is. Give the guy time, he still has so much ahead of him.

In 2 years time or so, the thought of Marshall and Spence in the Ulster midfield makes my mouth water and that's coming from the guy who will have McFadden and O'Malley as his centres

Is O'Malley really that good? To me he'll be a player who certainly won't get Irish caps. I suspect he'll actually find it hard to hold down a place at Leisnter.

Stag,

I think he's good. He's been lucky that he hasn't been rushed through and has been able to develop at his own pace. I like him as he not quite like anything that's gone before him.

An interesting option for the future.

Trimble is well worth his place. MOD though WTF.