Ireland. The unnecessary chaff in our prospective RWC squad. The truth as I see it.

First topic message reminder :

Players who should not travel. Players who are there for reasons, other than a system based on meritocracy. And some players. who are there, because we are desperate and seemingly - have not had time to find their adequate, backup replacements, in time for the RWC. Players, who could be easily replaced over Summer - without adversely affecting our squads' depth-of-strength.

Andrew Trimble – An average provincial player, who has never really shown for his country. Had the chance 4 years ago, when he was potentially better than Bowe. Since been passed out and now obsolete at International level. Earls (Wing,FB & Centre), Fitzgerald (Wing & Centre) and McFadden (Wing & Centre) – are far superior and proven players at the top-end. So no need for him.

Paddy Wallace - see Trimble. But even worse. His time is long gone on the international stage. We don't need him to waste a vital space on the plane, or on the bench as a backup 10. Or as an average international centre anymore. I believe Kidney has seen the light there. Check his non-usage of him in the 6-N. Goodbye Paddy. Thanks a lot.

Dennis Leamy. Was good. Really good at 6 or 8. Close to World class in his pomp. A huge favourite of mine in the past. But, has never been the same, after an injury and a long lay-off. Munster think so too and that's good enough for me.

John Hayes. Love im. Love what he's done for us over the years. But, do I really need to explain? The hulk that is Buckley - on the plane.

Horan. No comment.

If and when, any of those players make the plane, expect the SH and better NH teams – to cut a wry smile. Me? I'm just embarrassed some are still in the mix for selection at this stage.

This post may seem Leinster-centric to some with blind vision. But. It's not. It's just the truth.

OK. No Shaggy. Even if he is presently better, played at a higher level for 10 years, won 2 x HC Cups in the last 3 years and has proven to be more effective than Fitzgerald, Trimble, Earls & Bowe – in reality. And he has just had a knee-operation. Will that serve to give some balance to this statement?

TBH. I don’t care. It is still all true. If you actually care about our country's hopes in the RWC and step back, be objective and think about it – I hope you will see it too.

You all know it makes sense. I pray Kidney does too. Leave them behind Deccie. Let them go and let's grow. Prove it in the Summer Tests.

Andrew "God-Speed" Trimble. Luhgund.
Paddy "Slow-Hand" Wallace. Luhgund.
John "De Bull" Hayes. Ligind
Marcus "De Flyin-Winger" Horan. Ligind
Dinny "The Rock" Leamy. Ligind.

Trimble was a plant to take the focus off Paddy.

Worked for a while. Like 2 nano-seconds.

No more Norn-Iron Poitín for me.

I blame Rava.

Believe.

Hehe.

Well, the thread has taken an amusing turn to be fair Gibbo; not too worried about Paddy or Trimby, tonight is all about Rory

And I'm not talking about Rory Best.

Bloody Hell yeah! I forgot. Been out all day. Mon Rory. Do it for Ireland man!

Trimble and Bowe on the wings for me everytime. Best possible options for the way we are trying to play the game. I've been saying that for ages.

And now... for the golf. :run2:

Notch wrote:Hehe.

And I'm not talking about Rory Best.

I'm sure he will be disappointed.

Spoiler:

On the assumption we will take 10 players outside of Scrum half (it could be 11) I think we will tak

O'Gara, Sexton, Wallace, D'Arcy, BOD, Fitzgerald, Trimble, Bowe, Kearney, Earls

I would leave Wallace and Fitzgerald at home and take McFadden and Humphreys. I would also take a good long look at Jones as a possible instead of Kearney.

Fitzgerald has had a mare of a season - bottom line is Trimble has out performand him all season as a winger and that is what we need.

We are in grave danger of taking players who are jake of all trades and master of none - Earls, Wallace, Fitzgerald.

You need to take your best players in each position. The difference for the above three is Earls has performand at a level that deserves selection in its own right - neither Fitzgerald or Wallace have.

As others have said plenty of ordinary players make the Lions plane - Titterall being a good example.

At the end of the day. There is no point in playing it safe and ensure we are covered in every position on any outcome. If we are in any position where paddy Wallace is having to play at out half we are not going to be winning the world cup and that's a fact!
I think McFadden should go instead of Wallace.

Sexton O'gara D'Arcy Mcfadden BOD Fitz Trimble Bowe Kearney Earls Jones

Drbeatz if we go for a 17/13 split you will have to drop one of those.
My thinking on Humphreys is we cannot be go with just 2 10's so I suggest 2 of them will then have to go.

Perhaps we wil go 16/14 but that means only 4 props.

4 props, 3 hookers, 3 second row, 5 back row, 1 backrow/2nd row = 16 forwards

drbeatz,

How can it be a fact if it hasn't happened?

Geoff the problem with taking Humphreys is that the 3rd choice fly half is unlikely to feature at all. Therefore it makes more sense to take Wallace as cover for 12 and 10.

Wallace has actually had a pretty good season and if he goes, which I think he will, it will be on merit. I like the llook of McFadden but the reality is that unless D'arcy gets injured then he is unlikely to feature. I would take him
ahead of Fitzgerald though who seems to do more wrong than right these days.

roddersm wrote: Wallace has actually had a pretty good season.

Sorry Rodders I have to disagree - with a couple of exceptions I think he has had a disappointing season.

I believe in best for the job.
McFadden offers more a 12
Humphreys offers more as a 10

What I would be interested in seeing is the change in players after World Cup. I expect to see following players come into the wider training squad after 6 Nations: McAllister, Strauss, Hagan, Browne, Faloon, O'Donoghue, Keatley, Spence, Conway, Gilroy. With Horan, Hayes, Flannery, Cullen, D.Wallace, Stringer, P.Wallace, Murphy playing less of a role after the RWC.

I think Trimble is a fine player and worth his place on the plane.

Fitzgerald has had a season to remember but his last 2 games were excellent even by his old standards. And to clear up the confusion when people are naming other players who were Lions – Fitzgerald was 1 of the all Irish back 3 that played in one of the most exciting Lions TEST MATCHES in years and didn’t put a foot wrong. But if it comes down to a straight shootout between the 2 for the last place then Trimble should go.

I would rather McFadden travels than Wallace, but I have no doubt that Wallace will go. And Leamy should be left behind for Jennings.

Do people really believe McFadden offers more at 12 than Wallace at test level? I think he will be a better player, but he's in the same boat as Jones vs Kearney or Murray vs. Reddan.

That is to say, Wallace has been there and done that. He knows the teams patterns of play, he has experienced the sensation of facing down a Haka, he's been to a World Cup before, he's faced the Southern Hemisphere nations in a test match before. He's played much more top level rugby at inside centre.

I just don't think McFadden has played enough top level rugby at 12 to merit a place- I just don't think he is a better option. And I've got to be honest and say, I I did I'd want him on the plane. That's the honest truth as I see it. I think fans fall into the trap of putting too much emphasis on form. With a full preseason and schedule of warm-up games, the form of last season will be looking pretty remote.

"That is to say, Wallace has been there and done that."

But he hasnt though has he? He might have been there but he certainly was never all that.

It will be a disaster for McFaddens future if he misses this WC- which is why he will go. For sure.

We dont need 3 OH's and we dont need Paddy at center.

It will be a disaster for McFaddens future if he misses this WC- which is why he will go. For sure.

Yes that's the reason he'll go

Boyne

If i remember correctly the one time Paddy did 'do it' was down under and specifically against Aus and NZ. That being said i have no issue with McFadden going in his place although it wont happen. If McFadden goes it will be at someone elses expense

Would it? Heaslip and Bowe haven't done too badly after missing out in 2007.

And had this discussion on another thread- Wallace has never achieved his potential in the Six Nations, but if you look at the way he's played on summer tours for us, and against Australia in general... In my opinion his three best performances in an Ireland jersey have been against Australia and New Zealand at various times.

So for a group where we will face the Aussies...

Boyne wrote:
It will be a disaster for McFaddens future if he misses this WC- which is why he will go. For sure.

I don't think it will be a disaster at all in fact it might help him nail down the 12 jersey at Leinster. I expect neither him or Wallace will feature much no matter who goes.

We do need 3 fly halves and for this reason I expect Wallace will go. Wallace is a much better player than made out here and has delivered in a Ireland jersey ore often than not. McFadden may make it but it will be at Fitzgeralds expense and not Wallace.

OK maybe not a disaster, but a player like him needs to get out there this time around.

What good can become of bringing Wallace? Zero.

He will not feature either in the center nor at 10. So why bring him??

Boyne wrote:What good can become of bringing Wallace? Zero.

He will not feature either in the center nor at 10. So why bring him??

Wallace has the best distribution of any 12 and if we want to get the ball out wide then he can bring a real contribution. D'arcy has had an up and down season and Wallace is the only other proven top level 12.

If one of then fly halves get injured then Wallace can cover 10 from the bench.

Injuries.

It would be madness not to take a third 10, in same way it would be madness not to take a 3rd Hooker, a 3rd SH, or imo a 5th Prop.
If McFadden goes I suspect it means Fitzgerald wont - the logic of 13 backs dictates that selection

As I have said I'd take Humphries but if not Humphries then Keatley or Wallace or Staunton but someone must go

I really think in his current form Fitzgerald offers very little. He doesn't seem to have the cutting edge out wide that he once had, he is defensively suspect and increasingly very error prone.

There are at least 3 better wingers and despite what some have said he is not a centre or fullback. Earls, Bowe, McFadden and even Trimble offer more from a versatility point of view.

Notch wrote:Yes, he's sure to be on the plane and well deserved.

In truth, I think Paddy Wallace will be on the plane regardless of what we say or think. Unless he has a complete shocker or two in August.

Surely he won't get enough game time in August to have a shocker. Maybe a couple of 30 second cameo roles

Rava wrote:

Notch wrote:Yes, he's sure to be on the plane and well deserved.

In truth, I think Paddy Wallace will be on the plane regardless of what we say or think. Unless he has a complete shocker or two in August.

Surely he won't get enough game time in August to have a shocker. Maybe a couple of 30 second cameo roles

This is a joke lads, really. How any of you can jusitfy a place for Wallace on the plane (let alone the team!!!!!) after being effectively being dropped from the Ulster team is crazy!!!!


[Edit, deleted your double-post Boyne K ]

How has he been effectively dropped from the Ulster team?

Boyne

The argument effectively has two parts: one is we need a third fly half of sorts if one of ROG or Sexton is injured. Secondly, we need some sort of cover for inside centre if D'arcy is out of form or injured. You say McFadden should be on the plane, ( when he hasn't played inside centre for any notable game for Leinster or Ireland) but logic dictates that Wallace, who is actually a decent centre, should go. Honestly you're fighting a losing battle here. We need some sort of third fly half so Wallace is going to go - Humphreys or Keatley definitely aren't.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if McFadden went instead of Fitzgerald. The notion of him covering centre and fullback is often thrown around but, in reality, he can't cover them to anything near an acceptable standard at test level. McFadden can cover wing and centre (I know this counters what I just said in the above paragraph but he certainly can cover centre better than Fitzgerald). On form, certainly, he'd be ahead of Fitzgerald for a wing spot, as would Earls, Trimble and Bowe but we'll see what happens in the summer games.

McFadden played inside centre in the Magners League final for all those who are saying he has played in no significant games this year in that position.

Also Boyne, when was Wallace dropped from the Ulster side?

I'll be happy as long as Kearney doesn't make the plane for the WC.
One of the most overrated players ever to wear an Irish jersey.

I think Deccie will stand by Wallace and so it will be very interesting to see who he selects for the other positions.

Certs are Earls,Bowe,Trimble,BOD,Darcy and Wallace.

FB is wide open and I agree with Geoff that Jones has a real opportunity here to nail that shirt as his own.
I would like to see a fit again Geordan Murphy there also.

I think Boyne may be confusing Wallace being injured for the last few games with him getting dropped. Boyne i dont entirely disagree with you but McFadden clearly isnt 1st choice for Leinster at 12 which is why your point lacks merit

Standulstermen wrote:McFadden clearly isnt 1st choice for Leinster at 12

True, but I wouldn't think the 12 position is entirely between Wallace, D'Arcy and Keith Matthews.

I'm not saying that this should happen, but as an option could TOL be brought to as 3rd scrumhalf/flyhalf cover? He'd only be really getting a game in an emergency there, and i think he's played there a couple times for Munster.

I'm not saying TOL is the 3rd best scrumhalf but Declan seems to like him!

Maybe not greybeard but i wasnt arguing that Wallace cant be selected as he has been dropped provincially.

Lads it Deccie

He has shown nothing in his recent Irish selections to suggest that he sees McFadden as his replacement 12. For similar reasons i cant see Jones starting at 15 against the big boys (though again i wouldnt have a problem with that)

I actually don't get the impression the Kidney even rates McFadden at all. He dropped him after the France game, when he wasn't exactly the worst player and hasn't selected him since.

I wouldn't say that Deccie doesn't rate McFadden - I'd say he rates Earls, Trimble & Bowe as better wingers.

McFadden didn't have a great game at 12 in the Magners Final. He got turned over a few times and I can't see David Wallace doing to D'Arcy what he did to McFadden when Leinster were on Munter's line.

I really think a squad should be picked on the best players per each position. This whole concept of taking players becausde of their diversity is totally the wrong attitude. It should be seen as an added benefit but not applicant criteria.

Personally, Fitz does not deserve to go based on the season. Nor does the injured players. Lets just cut our losses and put faith in the players who have shown fine form and whose confidence are already on a high.

No Paddy. Defo Trimbs. Defo McFadden. Start Jones. 3rd choice FH Humphreys.

I believe that for the country to excel, the form players must be rewarded. Otherwise the system is flawed. Players will start to be resentful of the national setup if they play out of their socks with no recognition.

I would rather a form player brimming with confidence, than a returning injured player with an ounce of doubt.

clivemcl wrote:I really think a squad should be picked on the best players per each position. This whole concept of taking players becausde of their diversity is totally the wrong attitude. It should be seen as an added benefit but not applicant criteria.

With only 30 players available thats not an option. Yes we could simply select the 1st choice and 2nd choice in each position but it would be a risky and unwise squad selection. Certain positions need extra cover and we had versatile players that can facilitate that.

rodders,

McFadden didn't have the worst game but he had a pretty poor one outside of the try.

Boyne I have no idea where you get the impression Walalce was droped - he definitely wasn't

MBTGOG wrote:rodders,

McFadden didn't have the worst game but he had a pretty poor one outside of the try.

I actually thought he played better than Earls and certainly better than D'arcy, yet the fact that he was the one dropped says a lot about where Kidney views him in the pecking order.

The less said about D'Arcy the better but I do remember at the time thinking McFadden had a particularly poor game.

I agree Geoff that it will be a 17/13 split, although I don't think there'll be 5 props.
Firstly Ireland don't have 5 props who are likely to share gametime.
Secondly they don't have (or won't take) props who can cover both sides.
Thirdly any prop injury is normally tournament ending anyway.
Fourthly they don't have a lock whom Kidney would want playing backrow except in a dire emergency. Therefore he will take four locks (probably including Ryan) AND six backrows. The backrows especially will need to be rotated in such a punishing competition and it is an area of strength for Ireland so keeping them fresh is really important.

So after the 3 SHs there are 10 back places to fill. Six of those are starting and two are regular bench spots. There is only space for two squad backs who need to cover injuries to any one of six positions. These guys have to be versatile to minimise disruption to the other positions, it is simply not possible to pick a first and second fifteen.

Humphreys offers zero versatility as injury cover in the squad. He will be on standby in case of a major injury to JS or ROG but there is no way he should be in the squad in case of a minor injury in only one position.

Kidney will need players who offer utility but will also want experienced heads as his backups. Guys who can slot in seamlessly because they've been there and done it before.

MBTGOG wrote:drbeatz,

How can it be a fact if it hasn't happened?

....... The funny thing is that seemed like a genuine question!

drbeatz,

Funny this is that you seemed to believe what you originally wrote

Guys, in terms of Wallace, I was sure he lost his place at the end of the season. Injury may have alot to do with it... but answer this one..

Who, in a perfect world, picking on form (well, lets say the current picks) for Ulster in the center..?

Wallace and Spence.

The Great Aukster wrote:I agree Geoff that it will be a 17/13 split, although I don't think there'll be 5 props.
Firstly Ireland don't have 5 props who are likely to share gametime.
Secondly they don't have (or won't take) props who can cover both sides.
Thirdly any prop injury is normally tournament ending anyway.
Fourthly they don't have a lock whom Kidney would want playing backrow except in a dire emergency. Therefore he will take four locks (probably including Ryan) AND six backrows. The backrows especially will need to be rotated in such a punishing competition and it is an area of strength for Ireland so keeping them fresh is really important.

So after the 3 SHs there are 10 back places to fill. Six of those are starting and two are regular bench spots. There is only space for two squad backs who need to cover injuries to any one of six positions. These guys have to be versatile to minimise disruption to the other positions, it is simply not possible to pick a first and second fifteen.

Humphreys offers zero versatility as injury cover in the squad. He will be on standby in case of a major injury to JS or ROG but there is no way he should be in the squad in case of a minor injury in only one position.

Kidney will need players who offer utility but will also want experienced heads as his backups. Guys who can slot in seamlessly because they've been there and done it before.

Nice to see some sense and a bit of cool analysis done on selecting. I do think it will be a 16/14 split however and Ryan or McLaughlin (less likely) will be included in the backrows. I think we will need the extra outside back tbh.

Spence and Cave.

The really unnecessary ones are:

Leamy
Fitzgerald
Hayes
M O'Driscoll

I wouldn't say Leamy and Fitzgerald are really unnecessary.