Should Ireland import players?

For the sake of long term competitiveness, should the IRFU adopt a similar policy to the RFU in actively recruiting foreign players with the aim of bolstering the national squad?

As things currently stand we are very fortunate with the current and immediate future talent pool but we don't have a big playing population and inevitably we will go through talent droughts.

In principle I am totally against it as there is very little pride in being a mercenary but if Ireland don't adopt a similar strategy, will they get left behind?

shantara wrote:For the sake of long term competitiveness, should the IRFU adopt a similar policy to the RFU in actively recruiting foreign players with the aim of bolstering the national squad?

No

will they get left behind?

No.

shantara wrote:For the sake of long term competitiveness, should the IRFU adopt a similar policy to the RFU in actively recruiting foreign players with the aim of bolstering the national squad?

Actually I think you'll find that it's the IRFU that already have this policy and not the RFU.

shantara wrote:For the sake of long term competitiveness, should the IRFU adopt a similar policy to the RFU in actively recruiting foreign players with the aim of bolstering the national squad?

Ireland do already. In fact it is far more advanced than England. We have a Project Player system in place where the IRFU buy players in order to get them qualified for Ireland. Leinster have 2 - Sykes and Strauss. Ulster have 1 - Diack. Munster have 1 - Borlase, and Connacht have a few.

I think its disgraceful and I really don't think we are getting left behind.

This issue has a lot to do with money.

If the Irish domestic regional teams can afford to do it, they would have by now, wouldn't they?

The question is also where do you aim to source them from, and at what age?

The idea is that like other nations clubs, our provinces buy in players in positions they feel need filling. The IRFU would prefer if that player had no foreign caps and therefore could play for Ireland one day.

It's the same process just more selective and dare I say sneaky??

More of these

red_stag wrote:

shantara wrote:For the sake of long term competitiveness, should the IRFU adopt a similar policy to the RFU in actively recruiting foreign players with the aim of bolstering the national squad?

Ireland do already. In fact it is far more advanced than England. We have a Project Player system in place where the IRFU buy players in order to get them qualified for Ireland. Leinster have 2 - Sykes and Strauss. Ulster have 1 - Diack. Munster have 1 - Borlase, and Connacht have a few.

I think its disgraceful and I really don't think we are getting left behind.

They don't 'buy' them

They look more favourably on those who could play for Ireland than they do on those who can't. I don't think Ireland has actually capped any of these imports yet.

By the way, can Leinster have 2 Project players or is 1 of them just considered to be the same as someone who is tied to another country?

It's the IRFU controlling the market of the provinces. They have a lot of control and in some ways that's good but not in others. This being one of the others

SinE, I'm fairly sure that Project Players have IRFU contracts.

The reason Leinster has 2 is that Sykes will replace Strauss who will be "Irish" middle of next season. They can then bring in another NIQ player of their choosing.

I was wondering have Ireland ever had a coloured player play for them?

This came up in my office the other day and we couldn't think of anyone.

Any help guys?

Simon Zebo for the U20 is probably closest we have had.

Haha either him or Donnacha O'Callaghan!

o'gara was pretty yellow

But seriously, not that i can think of at the moment

zebo down in munster looks like a future one

cheers guys

At the underage levels, more and more young black males are playing the game. Certainly when I played not that long ago, I don't think I ever played against any black people but there are more and more now with more Africans immigrating.

I always think that ROG is RED...........put it down to hypertension myself.

We do have such a policy - Project players - which virtually all of us dislike.
By way of illustration the following:

"Leinster have 2 - Sykes and Strauss. Ulster have 1 - Diack. Munster have 1 - Borlase, and Connacht have a few."

shows that by and large these players are not going to enhance the team.
These players are brought over to address short falls in the provinces not as part of a master plan to address Ireland's problems.
Not one player who has come over as a Project has yet to put on the full Ireland shirt. Diack isn't good enough, Borlase isn't good enough, Sykes isn't good enough.

The only 2 who may be are Strauss (in a position where we are ok) and Payne at Ulster (I don't believe he will ever play for Ireland but will go back after 3 years to challange foran AB jersey)

NO,

Let them go and play for the country from which they came.

I agree with Geoff. The project player (while potentially useful for Ireland) is much more beneficial to the provinces. I dont mind it in that regard but i would have a problem if suddenly numerous projects started appearing in the national side. At present Strauss is the only one that might threaten it so i dont see much of an issue and i am glad as an Ulsterman to have seen Diack and now Payne play at Ravenhill.

Geoff, I am fairly sure Strauss will as the IRFU will want to justify their system. And if he does it can entice better players into the project player system.

Just because it hasn't worked yet doesn't mean it won't.

Standulstermen wrote: The project player (while potentially useful for Ireland) is much more beneficial to the provinces.

How is it more useful than allowing the provinces sign a better NIQ who won't be Irish eligable.

red_stag wrote:

shantara wrote:For the sake of long term competitiveness, should the IRFU adopt a similar policy to the RFU in actively recruiting foreign players with the aim of bolstering the national squad?

Ireland do already. In fact it is far more advanced than England. We have a Project Player system in place where the IRFU buy players in order to get them qualified for Ireland. Leinster have 2 - Sykes and Strauss. Ulster have 1 - Diack. Munster have 1 - Borlase, and Connacht have a few.

I think its disgraceful and I really don't think we are getting left behind.

Ulster have 2- Diack and Payne. Leinster and Ulster are both taking on another one because Diack and Strauss will soon be Irish Qualified. Diack will be Irish Qualified by the time next season starts.

biltongbek wrote:This issue has a lot to do with money.

If the Irish domestic regional teams can afford to do it, they would have by now, wouldn't they?

The question is also where do you aim to source them from, and at what age?

They are. Jared Payne, Auckland Blues, 25. Steven Sykes, Natal Sharks, 26.

These are proven Super Rugby players being brought over as potential Ireland internationals and are making a lot more money over here than they otherwise would be.

"Not one player who has come over as a Project has yet to put on the full Ireland shirt."

It wouldn't be due to the fact that none of the players named have qualified yet?

The point is that the original poster (and I expect it was a little bit of a wind-up) has it the wrong way round. The IRFU have a system in place to bring in foreign players with the view to qualify them on residency grounds (whether they end up playing for Ireland or not). The RFU don't have such a policy (even if the England rugby team does have more residency qualified players).

Stag

because theoretically a project could be useful for Ireland. A NIQ definately wont be. I would have no issue seeing a project for Ireland as long as it is not commonplace. What i would say is that i think said project player should have to be in the country longer than 3 years

I agree Strauss will get selected if only to justify a system that isn't delivery players of an Internatioanl standard. As to whether it will work in the future it is my contention that Sykes and Borlase are not good enough and Payne has no intention of playing for Ireland so we are left with Strauss for the forseeable future.

It is more useful to the provinces in so far as these players are selected because the individual Province has identified a need for a player in that position not because they are seen as prospective Irish international.
That would just be the icing on the cake - icing that has been totally missing so far.

The IRFU seem to want to keep their options open to recruit future players from abroad through this system - it hasn't work yet. It will remain, especially as we are down to 4 NIQ for 2012-13

The RFU have a policy of capping players who qualify via residency Robbo- it's not exactly miles apart. The RFU has no say in clubs recruitment policy unlike the IRFUs relationship with the Provinces so it's not such a great example.

For the record I oppose the policy and would rather have just 5 NIQ as the limit, capped or not.

Any examples of players capped purely because they are getting interest from elsewhere? I'd hate to think that was the case, because it would devalue the cap.

I agree we have a lot of qualified players, perhaps too many. But I can't think of many who didn't deserve their call-up when they got it (perhaps Waldrom, but he had declared himself for England and would have had to move back to New Zealand to get a cap for them).

Notch wrote:

biltongbek wrote:This issue has a lot to do with money.

If the Irish domestic regional teams can afford to do it, they would have by now, wouldn't they?

The question is also where do you aim to source them from, and at what age?

They are. Jared Payne, Auckland Blues, 25. Steven Sykes, Natal Sharks, 26.

These are proven Super Rugby players being brought over as potential Ireland internationals and are making a lot more money over here than they otherwise would be.

How much money do they actually earn, does anyone know?

robbo277 wrote:Any examples of players capped purely because they are getting interest from elsewhere? I'd hate to think that was the case, because it would devalue the cap.

I agree we have a lot of qualified players, perhaps too many. But I can't think of many who didn't deserve their call-up when they got it (perhaps Waldrom, but he had declared himself for England and would have had to move back to New Zealand to get a cap for them).

Virtaully ever country gives players 'A' caps to prevent them playing for other teams - sad but true

biltongbek wrote:

Notch wrote:

biltongbek wrote:This issue has a lot to do with money.

If the Irish domestic regional teams can afford to do it, they would have by now, wouldn't they?

The question is also where do you aim to source them from, and at what age?

They are. Jared Payne, Auckland Blues, 25. Steven Sykes, Natal Sharks, 26.

These are proven Super Rugby players being brought over as potential Ireland internationals and are making a lot more money over here than they otherwise would be.

How much money do they actually earn, does anyone know?

Yeah, the people paying their salaries. They'd keep figures out of the media of course, as private as possible. Payne did cite the potential to make some money in his short career as one of the reasons he decided to go to Ulster, amongst others- new life experience, different kind of rugby, positive things said about Ulster etc.

I'm glad that the RFU, unlike the IRFU, don't have a policy of encouraging the clubs to recruit players from other countries with the aim of getting them qualified through residency - I wish they'd go a step further and decline to pick players like Hape and Flutey (based on them being residency qualified, though I'd also like them to not be picked since they're not good enough ). Passive taking advantage of the rules as the RFU do I dislike, actively looking to expliot them? Much worse.

A number of mercenaries have played for England in recent years - not the case in Ireland so I would not be to smug.

I dont believe Payne will ever play for Ireland.
He is, reportedly, on about 1 million euro for three years. I suspect this is about right.

How are England not exploiting the rules? I don't see them stepping in to tell the clubs to limit their overseas signings and they're quite happy to reap the benefits of foreign born players playing their rugby in England.

Now I'm opposed to the project player system in Ireland and I favour tightening the rules on residency to make it harder to qualify. But let's not quarrel over the moral high ground. We're all at it here.

Notch wrote:How are England not exploiting the rules? I don't see them stepping in to tell the clubs to limit their overseas signings and they're quite happy to reap the benefits of foreign born players playing their rugby in England.

Now I'm opposed to the project player system in Ireland and I favour tightening the rules on residency to make it harder to qualify. But let's not quarrel over the moral high ground. We're all at it here.

Well the give funding to the clubs for fielding EQ players. There's no differentiation between those non-English qualified player who will never qualify and those that may one day. That's the difference.

What the RFU doesn't do is discriminate on someone based on how they're qualified. And nor should they.

Oh and can anyone give an example of a single player capped for the Saxons for the reason of tying him to England?

Edit: and the RFU have a limit on the 'foreign" players in a playing squad, of 1. There are ways around it with players holding european passports but it's there and adherred to when possible (even in ridiculous circumstances).

Notch wrote:How are England not exploiting the rules? I don't see them stepping in to tell the clubs to limit their overseas signings

Yes they do, only one overseas player is allowed in the match day squad. Trouble is EU law means that rule can only be applied to payers from some nations.

robbo277 wrote:

The point is that the original poster (and I expect it was a little bit of a wind-up) has it the wrong way round.

My post was genuinely not meant as a wind up. I'm just becoming increasingly concerned with the amount of foreign players pushing home-grown talent to the benches or out of contention.

I have no problem with foreign players at club level, or foreign players that have come through the system playing at international level. I do however take issue with an open door policy to anyone willing to wear a shirt either for the right price or because they have failed to make the mark for their own national side.

Even in the age of professionalism, Rugby still holds that pride of playing at the highest level and representing your country or the B&I Lions. If national sides are diluted with foreign players, then what is the difference between the national set up and the club set up. Let's be honest, the foreign players in the current home nations sides (or close to being capped) didn't grow up dreaming of wearing a red rose or shamrock on their shirt and singing 'God Save the Queen' or 'Ireland's Call' etc. They dreamt of wearing an All Black's shirt and doing the Haka (or other).

I still think that there is something special about representing your country. The loyalty, the passion, the underdog, the favourite & the anthems. It's just not on the same level when it's diluted. The honour is by deserving the win, not buying it.

The worry is that is seems to be Rugby powerhouses such as NZ & England that are leading the way in this and I fear that smaller nations such as Ireland, Wales etc will have no choice in adopting the same tactics in order to remain competitive. All to the detriment of home-grown talent.

shantara wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

The point is that the original poster (and I expect it was a little bit of a wind-up) has it the wrong way round.

My post was genuinely not meant as a wind up. I'm just becoming increasingly concerned with the amount of foreign players pushing home-grown talent to the benches or out of contention.

Ok, taking you at face value. At least now you know that the IRFU has implemented a system that differentiates between non-Irish (forever) and non-Irish (may qualify one day). this system could only have been put in place to facilitate the qualification through residency of originally non-irish players.

No such system exists in England and the RFU have done as much as they can to restrict the number of non-English qualified players. This is supposedly limited due to EU law.

What the RFU do is play any EQ player regardless of how that player gained that qualification. Funnily enough the player that seems to have kicked off this recent issue is Waldrum, who is qualified by grandparent (similar to Hines and Court isn't it?). I personally would like the grand parent rule restricted to 2nd tier nations (how do you qualify as 2nd tier?). But until they change the rules I have no problem with MJ selected any EQ player (I have severel I'd prefer to Waldrum on playing ability alone)

snoopster wrote:

Notch wrote:How are England not exploiting the rules? I don't see them stepping in to tell the clubs to limit their overseas signings

Yes they do, only one overseas player is allowed in the match day squad. Trouble is EU law means that rule can only be applied to payers from some nations.

EU law doesn;t stop us from having our quota of NIQ players to be fair. But that's because we have more central control.

HammerofThunor wrote:
What the RFU doesn't do is discriminate on someone based on how they're qualified. And nor should they.]

I agree. The onus is on the IRB to sort out the residency laws. It needs to be tighter, take longer to qualify.

As I said I'd prefer to restrict grandparent rule to tier 2 nations (it could cripple the PI teams) and increase residency to 5 years (time required for British naturisation).

This would exclude Waldrum, Flutey and Hape. Hape's been over here for ages but I don't think it was continuous permanant residency.

[quote="Notch"]EU law doesn;t stop us from having our quota of NIQ players to be fair. But that's because we have more central control.[quote]

Yes - the RFU does what it can but since a chunk of the clubs' wage bills are self funded the RFU can't control what they do with it, so they have no legal way to really restrict who a club signs.

As you and Thunor have said, what is really needed is an IRB tightening of the residency rules because it is clear that every nation will take advantage of the current rules if the chance is there.

Agreed snoopster

One other thing - I would like a rule brought in that if you represent a country at a sport then you are tied to that country for all sports it plays at a high level. So if you represent Mongolia at the Olympics in cycling, you can then represent Scotland at rugby so long as you qualify for them as well but Hape would be tied to New Zealand for both forms of rugby.

snoopster wrote:One other thing - I would like a rule brought in that if you represent a country at a sport then you are tied to that country for all sports it plays at a high level. So if you represent Mongolia at the Olympics in cycling, you can then represent Scotland at rugby so long as you qualify for them as well but Hape would be tied to New Zealand for both forms of rugby.

I don't agree with that but I don't think you should be tied to country forever anyway. The only reason I'm not for scrapping that completely is that we'd see a load of ex-All Blacks gaining qualification all over the place. The thing I would possibly do is say you can qualify as normal but X years after playing for them you can qualfy to play for the count of your birth (possibly parents birth, maybe both).

Am sure Isaac Boss turned down a spot in an All Black squad (Marhsall was being left at home if my memory serves me right) when he had already signed to go to Ireland.

The idea of a so-called project player is risible. Basically you get a player who isn't good enough to get a cap in his own country, is unqualified to play for Ireland but you pay him the same as an NIQ capped player anyway!

If a province has a need for an uncapped NIQ player - fine. If the players stay long enough and aren't capped by their own country in the meantime - fine. If they're good enough and want to play for Ireland - that's fine as well. It's specifically recruiting these players as "projects" that is the ridiculous bit.

I don't have an issue with teams being multi-national. In fact if anything I'd ease the restrictions further. I see no problem with a Test team playing guys who have been actually capped for another country! It would have to be limited to say no more than two, and those guys would have had to qualify by either a three year residency or say have at least five years since their last cap irrespective of where they reside.

There are some players who have been stopped playing for anyone else by tying them to one country with one cap. This is obviously bad for the player but it's also bad for rugby. Increasing the pool of quality players available for Test selection would help small rugby nations far more than the large ones. Rugby will die if there is a continued diminishing of competition and the number of nations who have a sporting chance of winning anything gets fewer and fewer.

The Great Aukster wrote:There are some players who have been stopped playing for anyone else by tying them to one country with one cap. This is obviously bad for the player but it's also bad for rugby. Increasing the pool of quality players available for Test selection would help small rugby nations far more than the large ones. Rugby will die if there is a continued diminishing of competition and the number of nations who have a sporting chance of winning anything gets fewer and fewer.

Isa Nacewa

Two sides to every coin. More foreign players, less gametime for irish players. Its better to have a position where its irish vs irish player competing for spots. Bit like McFadden pushing Fitz or D'arcy. O'Malley would be pushing BOD, if it wasnt BOD!

We had Van Der Linde taking up the TH place instead of Ross. Ross was present the whole of last year, yet he didnt get a look in, wasnt seen or tested in European cup level, and subsequently our national team suffered.



Besides, the near fully Irish provinces aren't doing to bad this year, or for the past six years!