Should Ireland import players?

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For the sake of long term competitiveness, should the IRFU adopt a similar policy to the RFU in actively recruiting foreign players with the aim of bolstering the national squad?

As things currently stand we are very fortunate with the current and immediate future talent pool but we don't have a big playing population and inevitably we will go through talent droughts.

In principle I am totally against it as there is very little pride in being a mercenary but if Ireland don't adopt a similar strategy, will they get left behind?

No.

Keeping an eye open for a future star is always sensible but frankly their hovering up everyone for the sake of it and it's irritating other Unions.
New Zealand and Wales seem to be offended because of recent goings on within Irish rugby.
Ireland taking the WRU to arbitrition within the IRB over Jarvis and Loxton won't do them any long term favours, as well as taking both the Ruddock lads from the Ospreys academy. I just wonder what the reaction would be if we'd taken 4 players off Ireland recently.
You also approached Tom Prydie hence why Gatland capped him at 17 to block your attempts. Clearly Wales, Scotland and Ireland have always been allies in rugby and tend to help each other a lot especially in voting matters within the IRB, and alienating your friends is never a good thing.
This isnt a anti-irish rant or bashing against it's people, it's just common sense not to píss on your own door step and Ireland seem to be doing that on Wales door step.

Alyn, this is what we do. We get too big for our boots and like to play the bully

Don't worry I'm fairly sure that down the line it'll prob end in tears when the shoe is on the other foot!

Both of the Ruddock lads wanted to play for Ireland though. They have an Irish mother and it's their right to make their own choice of who to represent. If you're half Irish and half Welsh, it's your own personal decision at the end of the day.

Notch wrote:Both of the Ruddock lads wanted to play for Ireland though. They have an Irish mother and it's their right to make their own choice of who to represent. If you're half Irish and half Welsh, it's your own personal decision at the end of the day.

I grant you the Ruddock brothers arent so clear cut.
Mike got offered a coaching role in Ireland and met a girl out there and married her, they had 2 kids and he came back to Wales. Both those boys grew up in Wales and went through the Ospreys academy, and frankly I belive it would of been their father who introduced them to rugby and put them on the road to be good rugby players. If his father hadn't of been so badly treated by the WRU they would probably of been Welsh players, but Ireland did approach them about playing for Ireland after academies in Wales had put their effort into them. Personally I think the Ruddock lads were so angry at the way their dad was treated by the WRU and agreed. Common sense would tell me growing up in Wales, playing for Welsh teams, with a famous father and coach is Welsh would generally mean you'd want to follow in his footsteps. Tom Shanklin did, as I'm sure have others.

The basic point I'm making is Ireland are looking at other countries promising players and approaching anyone who could be eligible for Ireland, it's not a sensible policy in the long term.

Think you've had a bit of an unnecessary rant there Alyn. I fully understand your annoyance about the Ruddock's since they were in the Osprey's academy but they have an Irish parent and one of them was born in Ireland. Also, Ruddock senior is half Irish as well so if you want to do things by grandparents they're 75% Irish. So, while I understand your frustration at the fact they were in the Ospreys academy, they're Irish and fully entitled to represent us. Added to that, the way Ruddock senior was treated by the WRU I think it's more a case of them pissing on themselves than us pissing on them.

Jarvis and Loxton are nothing to do with the IRFU (I assume). Connacht signed them in the belief that they hadn't been tied to Wales and had Irish parents and therefore would not count as a NIQ. That's not the IRFU pissing on the Welsh it's Connacht trying to expand and improve their squad.


I don't know what we're supposed to have done to New Zealand but if it's giving a few of their players contracts in the provinces that's irony for you with south sea islanders in their game.

So, while I wholeheartedly disagree with the "project" player nonsense less of having a dig at Ireland. We're lovely people really. I have no knowledge of the Tom Prydie craic by the way, could you provide a link maybe?

mrsuperclear wrote:Think you've had a bit of an unnecessary rant there Alyn.

As a fan I'm not overly worried with losing any of the 4 players you have taken, Ruddock was clearly taken and capped early to prevent him changing his mind and hasn't yet made the breakthrough to a consistently selected player for Ireland. He's a fringe player as he would be for Wales.

The basic case I was making is it's clear Ireland are scouting all the talented players Wales are developing and if Irish ancestry can be found their trying to poach them. Most people will always have a second country they could potentially play for, we have Welsh, English, Italian, and Pakistani in our family for example and I think multi nationalities are pretty common, my basic point is if the WRU and it's regions are investing time, money, coaching and effort into players it's better that other countries don't try and take them off us after all that hard work. Sooner or later Irelands selfish attitude will come back and bite them on the backside especially Ireland already have a larger playing pool.

It's not for you to tell them how to feel about their nationality Alyn. You have no idea how important or not their Irish heritage is to them. They were born in Dublin to a family which is Irish on one side and Welsh on the other.

It's their own personal decision, one that was probably informed by BOTH their parents. Mike Ruddock and his wife are now settling in Dublin long term, that's where they consider home. And they started off in the Ospreys Academy and joined the Leinster Academy fairly early on in their professional career.

You're pre-judging their motivations and right to play for the country of their birth is at best ill-informed and at worst offensive.

I think that's a completely unfair and unfounded statement to make Alyn. What evidence do you have that the IRFU are going around Wales and scouting players with Irish ancestry? It was common knowledge that Ruddock senior was half Irish. He had coached here and lived here before and one of his son's (Rhys) was born in Ireland. I don't think it took a huge amount of scouting here like. Simply, the WRU treated Mike badly and consequently his already half Irish children had an easier decision to make as regards their nationality. Connacht approached signed Loxton and Jarvis, not Ireland, so have your gripe with them if you want to. I understand your frustration but you're making a sweeping and unfounded statement ("Ireland are scouting all the talented players Wales are developing...and trying to poach them") that is simply untrue.

mrsuperclear wrote:What evidence do you have that the IRFU are going around Wales and scouting players with Irish ancestry?

Well they approached Prydie it was reported, they approached Loxton and Jarvis, all players are centrally contracted in Ireland remember.
Do you think all these players being approached is coincidence?
When was the last time you saw it reported an Irish academy player was approached to play for Wales on account of a Welsh grand parent?
The truth is I doubt the WRU would allow it for fear of being seen to be disrespectful to you.
You guys are getting defensive over my comments but the facts pretty much back me up, Do you really think all these kids with Irish grannies have all suddenly decided their Irish?
It was an Irish posted who started the article on Ireland's policy of looking overseas for talent instead of looking within your own country to try and develop players.
As I remember you also approached Matthew McCarthy and Patrick Horgan of Neath back in 1996 which caused a big argument between our Unions and Ireland backed down, though both player rejected the Irish offer.
If you guys dont want to discuss the truth or the facts of Ireland feeling they need to scour Wales for rugby players and would prefer this to be an Irish person only debate then I will leave the thread alone and you guys can keep deluding yourselves. I dont want a racial argument, I'm just stating that's it's known that Ireland do keep an eye on Wales for potential talent, and trying to take them from our age group sides is a bit over the top.

Well OF COURSE we are looking at players with Irish descent across the world all the time. We've always had an exiles program. Why on earth shouldn't we?

Historically Ireland has suffered from emigration, we have a massive diaspora. Emigration has been a massive problem for our country across the centuries and this is a way to make our diaspora work for us. We do it in sport, we do it in politics, we do it in economics. I don't see how it is wrong to approach guys and ask them if they want to play for Ireland. They are adults who can make their own mind up. They will choose the country that they want to represent themselves.

The likes of Stephen Moore (Aus), Shane Geraghty (Eng) and Kieran Brookes (Eng) have turned down the chance to represent Ireland and I respect their decision. So if someone whose Irish heritage is important to them does decide to represent Ireland, everyone should respect that decision.

I think it's rather mean to suggest that players with Irish heritage shouldn't get the chance to represent their country the same as everyone else. The country of their ancestors, of their family- that runs deep. And if they don't consider Ireland to be their country, well then they won't agree to play for Ireland and will go on and play for the country they do feel a stronger affinity for.

That is completely and utterly different to the 'Project Player' system. Someone with an Irish parent or even a grandparent in some cases is fully entitled to claim Irish citizenship, to be considered an Irish national.

Not only do I see nothing wrong with this, I actively encourage it.

Bringing in a player with no connections to Ireland with the intention of having them qualify on residency is utterly different- and I feel quite wrong.

AlynDavies wrote:Ireland taking the WRU to arbitrition within the IRB over Jarvis and Loxton won't do them any long term favours, as well as taking both the Ruddock lads from the Ospreys academy.

They haven't taken anyone to arbitration. Neither the IRFU nor the WRU are 100% sure what the status of the players is in terms of eligibilty and they've asked for nothing more than clarification. "Arbitration" is an exaggeration.

all players are centrally contracted in Ireland remember.

Again, no.

Ruddock was clearly taken and capped early to prevent him changing his mind and hasn't yet made the breakthrough to a consistently selected player for Ireland.

He was capped on a tour of NZ where we had so many injured backrowers we were selecting Connacht players to start, FFS. Again, slight exaggeration on your part.

As for scouting for Welsh talent, Eric Elwood was the Ireland U-20 coach and has experience of watching Jarvis and Loxton play.

He signed NOC from Ulster because NOC played for him. Similarly with other young players. He signed Rodney Ah You because Ah You was on the baby blacks team that Elwood once faced and he was impressed.

Hardly scouting for players, just going with what he knows.

Where was it reported we approached Prydie Alyn? I've looked all over the internet and can't find anything. I asked you for a link as well. I'm fairly dubious that has any truth to it. As I explained to you previously, Connacht approached Loxton and Jarvis, not the IRFU. I see you've given up on the Ruddock's anyway so your evidence, if you like, is a clearly hidden report that we approached Prydie and two signings by Connacht and you're using this to support your claim that the IRFU are actively going around Wales looking for players with Irish ancestry. Many non-Irish born players have represented us in the past, and will do in the future, but the IRFU do not have people who's sole job is to get players with ancestry to declare for us.

I'll add to Notch's comment and say that you have absolutely no right to expect anyone to have whatever nationality you expect them to. I wasn't born in Ireland myself and I'm sure many other people have some sort of dual-nationality but they don't have to conform to your view of what makes a person something. You're saying that people suddenly decided to be Irish based on their grannies but (a) who has the granny, my understanding was it was parents and (b) you, yourself, have no idea what any of these players feel about their nationality. It's a very complex thing to discover who you are as a person and what nationality you are. It's rarely clear cut.

It's not us that are deluding ourselves. We know full well about this project player thing of the IRFU's even if we don't agree with it or that it hasn't yet been put into use. I can assure you that there is no get Welsh players project though.

greybeard wrote:They haven't taken anyone to arbitration. Neither the IRFU nor the WRU are 100% sure what the status of the players is in terms of eligibilty and they've asked for nothing more than clarification. "Arbitration" is an exaggeration.

I think my wording is correct the WRU wrote to the IRU and said they were not eligible for Ireland on account of having been capped for Wales U20 which is classified with the IRB as Wales second team. The IRU dispute this, hence why the IRB have been asked to decide the players eligibility, personally I hope they come down on Wales side because then it may make Ireland think twice about using these recruiting tecniques.
The Irish should look to develop talent within their own borders, that's where the REAL Irish people are!

He was capped on a tour of NZ where we had so many injured backrowers we were selecting Connacht players to start, FFS. Again, slight exaggeration on your part.

It's not an exaggeration, it's no different than England trying to do cap Ben Morgan with the Saxons to make him ineligible for Wales.

As for scouting for Welsh talent, Eric Elwood was the Ireland U-20 coach and has experience of watching Jarvis and Loxton play.
Hardly scouting for players, just going with what he knows.

Yes and he's employed by the Irish Union which rather emphasizes my point.

You Irish lads seem to be taking this as a racial insult, I will again say I don't care which country a player choose if he's eligible for both, the issue I have is Ireland have enough talent in their own country and frankly don't need to go looking in Wales for players to play for Ireland.
What message does it send to a young kid in Ireland when they have been left as an amateur while 2 Welsh boys rejected from the Ospreys and Blues are given professional contract ahead of them?
I'm eligible to play for Scotland but I feel about as Scottish as a Welsh cake...

AlynDavies wrote:

greybeard wrote:They haven't taken anyone to arbitration. Neither the IRFU nor the WRU are 100% sure what the status of the players is in terms of eligibilty and they've asked for nothing more than clarification. "Arbitration" is an exaggeration.

I think my wording is correct the WRU wrote to the IRU and said they were not eligible for Ireland on account of having been capped for Wales U20 which is classified with the IRB as Wales second team. The IRU dispute this, hence why the IRB have been asked to decide the players eligibility, personally I hope they come down on Wales side because then it may make Ireland think twice about using these recruiting tecniques.
The Irish should look to develop talent within their own borders, that's where the REAL Irish people are!

Asking to decide on eligibility is not the same as arbitration. Honestly, I'm going to start screaming in a minute. You're twisting the facts.

AlynDavies wrote:

He was capped on a tour of NZ where we had so many injured backrowers we were selecting Connacht players to start, FFS. Again, slight exaggeration on your part.

It's not an exaggeration, it's no different than England trying to do cap Ben Morgan with the Saxons to make him ineligible for Wales.

It's a complete exaggeration to say he was capped quickly to poach him. He wasn't even in the original squad, he was competing in the JWC and flew out to Australia to replace John Muldoon. If Muldoon hadn't broken his arm Ruddock wouldn't have been capped.

Now unless Muldoon was asked to break his arm against a large All Black, I see no evidence of a plot to poach.

I'm not even going to reply to your third point, it's just ludicrous, you're not even trying to stay withing the bounds of reality now.

AlynDavies wrote:What message does it send to a young kid in Ireland when they have been left as an amateur while 2 Welsh boys rejected from the Ospreys and Blues are given professional contract ahead of them?

It says 'try harder'

And if they don't they don't get picked.

greybeard wrote:It says 'try harder'

And if they don't they don't get picked.

No mate, it says the 4th best team in the world need to scour the world to find players who are eligible because they don't have enough faith in their kids coming out their own system.
Considering this is the "Golden" period of Irish rugby that's a sad situation.
You should have Irish born and bread players, do you really want an Ireland team with Welsh and Southern Hemisphere accents? Or would you rather take pride in the fact a young kid from your country has worked hard and made himself into a Irish international?

You really don't get it Alyn. These people who may not have been born in Ireland are Irish. This is not Ireland scouring the world it is Irish people representing Ireland. You seem to be completely disregarding the idea that someone can feel they are a specific nationality even if they weren't born in that country. You don't understand it or else you want to ignore it. Either way, you have no right to say that someone is something just because they were born somewhere.

You seem like a nice guy with some good rugby knowledge but you've gone on a rant attacking Ireland of scouring the world for players with Irish ancestry when that statement is completely false and has no basis in fact. If Strauss gets capped I will be right behind you saying that he is not Irish and has no business in a green jersey but everyone else that you've mentioned feels Irish and has a right to do so even if you disagree with it.

mrsuperclear wrote:You really don't get it Alyn. These people who may not have been born in Ireland are Irish. This is not Ireland scouring the world it is Irish people representing Ireland. You seem to be completely disregarding the idea that someone can feel they are a specific nationality even if they weren't born in that country. You don't understand it or else you want to ignore it. Either way, you have no right to say that someone is something just because they were born somewhere.

You seem like a nice guy with some good rugby knowledge but you've gone on a rant attacking Ireland of scouring the world for players with Irish ancestry when that statement is completely false and has no basis in fact. If Strauss gets capped I will be right behind you saying that he is not Irish and has no business in a green jersey but everyone else that you've mentioned feels Irish and has a right to do so even if you disagree with it.

Clearly you cant judge every case by one rule. If someone is eligible for a country and wish to play for them then good luck to that person. But in my opinion the residency and Grand parent rules are stupid. If your mother is Irish and your Father is Welsh, you were born in Ireland but raised in Wales then clearly you have an equal case for both sides. I wont dispute that. What I will dispute is scouring countries looking for anybody who can play rugby who has a granny from Ireland and making that player a professional at the expense of young born and raised Irish lads is a bad judgement call. A group of rugby players playing for the pride of their nation will always give more to the cause than a mercenary who's only there to make a few quid.
Loxton and Jarvis haven't suddenly decided they were Irish all along, they went there because the Ospreys and the Blues didn't think they were good enough to keep. Suddenly deciding their Irish is just an excuse to take a contract in Ireland and block the chances of a Irish kid, and I doubt deep down1 Irish cap would mean as much to them as 1 Welsh cap would.
The truth is in most cases these foreign born players come to our countries qualify one way or another for our nations, make a few quid then go "home". Wales and Scotland have had these issues for years it would be sad to Ireland and England falling into the same trap as they seem to be doing. Does it really feel right when after a game when you hear the interviews and you hear Scottish International Dan Parks talking in his accent? Is that what a real Scotsman sounds like?

I don't know how accurate you are in saying Loxton and Jarvis are not Irish pal. I thought their parents were Irish, not just their grandparents as you seem to think? I just did a quick google seach and found this http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/my_club/connacht/9398176.stm So, while I have nothing on Jarvis, I'm sure you can agree it's not difficult to imagine that Loxton, who has an Irish mother and goes on holiday to Ireland every year, does feel Irish? And, again, this is Connacht scouring Wales for signings, not the IRFU. I don't know if you appreciate the difference there?

Look, I'd be dubious about someone with a granny saying they feel something too but that isn't the case with these players. As far as I can tell they do actually feel Irish and their feeling has nothing to do with IRFU interference. I agree with your sentiments on players like Dan Parks and Nathan Hines and Riki Flutey talking in interviews but these boys feel Irish and, as far as I'm concerned are Irish. As I said before, if the day comes when Richardt Strauss is talking in an interview with an Irish jersey on him I will be completely against it but the other lads have my full support.

http://www.rugbyworld.com/news/connacht-sign-matthew-jarvis-and-james-loxton/

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/22262.php

Jarvis, who can play at 10, 12 or 15, has been capped by Wales at U18 and was the vice-captain of the Welsh U20 side that faced England last February. The 1.93m, 91kg Neath born flyer qualifies to play for Ireland as his grand-mother hails from Cork.

There you go
Jarvis qualifies from a Granny.

You have to look at this from the outside not the inside IMHO. The southern hemisphere countries have so many more rugby players than we do, yet still have only the one national team. That means dozens upon dozens of Test-quality players are going to be on the market to put in their time and qualify for other countries. If we dont compete for at least some of them, other countries will get them. So as things stand right now, I say yes, we should be involved, as we already are.

But the real question is...is the 3-year rule fair? Or should it be more? If I'm an Irish player just leaving school and being accepted by a provincial Academy, how am I going to feel if a South African who plays in my position has been brought to Ireland at the same time to qualify in 3 years, around the time when I'll hopefully be breaking through at provincial level?

Grandparents x4 Parents x2 Citizen x1 Residency x1 = 8

So that's eight ways a player could qualify to play for a country thats far too many.

Harpinonrugby

I honestly disagree that we should be involved with this residency Poopie at all. I completely disagree with it. Someone who comes over pre-professional contract I would be less dubious of but someone who simply comes over for more money with a "project player" attached on his label I completely disagree with and I highly doubt I ever will agree with it. I really hope the higher powers of the IRFU agree with me but I fear Richartd will be capped when he qualifies.

Alyn - Fair enough pal. I would be dubious of Jarvis and his granny from Cork (especially since she's from Cork if Roy Keane and Stephen Ireland's proudness of their nationality is anything to go by ) I still say that Connacht are the one's recruiting him and not the IRFU though mate. The IRFU put a limit on the amount of NIQ players Connacht are allowed and are therefore going to the IRB on their behalf, not on their own behalf. That might sound dubious enough to yourself but, as was said by another poster, Elwood has seen them play before and he initiated the signings, not the IRFU. I hope you feel a little bit better about us now anyway mate and, even if you don't and are convinced that the IRFU are evil devils, surely you can forgive us poaching this one Welsh lad with a granny from Cork

This argument about the Irish stealing players from Wales being outrageous seems odd - more than one English based player has turned out for Wales over the years... but it is hard for me to see anything wrong with Shanklin being picked by Wales all the same. All countries keep an eye out for promising players they can select regardless of where they are.

mrsuperclear
Do you have any idea when the Munster cycling team are sailing over to Holyhead
http://www.munsterrugby.ie/ All I know is they will be here tomorrow and being a keen cyclist myself I would like to meet and greet the lads and wish them luck on the worthy event to raise money in memory of Paul.

mrsuperclear wrote:Harpinonrugby

I honestly disagree that we should be involved with this residency Poopie at all. I completely disagree with it. Someone who comes over pre-professional contract I would be less dubious of but someone who simply comes over for more money with a "project player" attached on his label I completely disagree with and I highly doubt I ever will agree with it. I really hope the higher powers of the IRFU agree with me but I fear Richartd will be capped when he qualifies.

I know exactly what you mean, it's just that my point is that if we don't do it in Ireland and the residency rule stays in place, we'll get beaten by other countries who ARE availing of it. So the way I see it, it's not the IRFU we should be looking to so sort this poopie it's the IRB.

snoopster wrote:This argument about the Irish stealing players from Wales being outrageous seems odd - more than one English based player has turned out for Wales over the years... but it is hard for me to see anything wrong with Shanklin being picked by Wales all the same. All countries keep an eye out for promising players they can select regardless of where they are.

Well Shanklin is pretty clear cut, his parents are Welsh and his father Jim Shanklin was a Welsh international himself, Tom actually played for London Welsh. Unless you want to work in a super market or be a lorry driver you petty much have to live in England, so clearly for Wales there are going to be issues of Welsh players with Welsh parents moving to England for education and work having their children born there. It seems to be more and more common issue for us. Almost all my friends from school now live in England. Wages for the same job are almost double in England which probably says it all.

Cymroglan wrote:mrsuperclear
Do you have any idea when the Munster cycling team are sailing over to Holyhead
http://www.munsterrugby.ie/ All I know is they will be here tomorrow and being a keen cyclist myself I would like to meet and greet the lads and wish them luck on the worthy event to raise money in memory of Paul.

Found this link here pal: http://www.thomondpark.ie/1839 Seems it's tomorrow, maybe ring in the morning or message one of the other Munster lads on here who might know more?

Harpinonrugby - I agree the IRB should definitely sort this mess out but it doesn't seem like they will any time soon. If they can't be bothered sort the scrum out then they won't do anything here. I kind of disagree with you though. Two wrongs don't make a right if you know what I mean. Just because other nations are following the policy of project players doesn't mean we should.

AlynDavies wrote:Well Shanklin is pretty clear cut, his parents are Welsh and his father Jim Shanklin was a Welsh international himself, Tom actually played for London Welsh. Unless you want to work in a super market or be a lorry driver you petty much have to live in England, so clearly for Wales there are going to be issues of Welsh players with Welsh parents moving to England for education and work having their children born there. It seems to be more and more common issue for us. Almost all my friends from school now live in England. Wages for the same job are almost double in England which probably says it all.

Ireland has historically had a bit of a thing with people going abroad to work as well, so it follows on that they'd look for a solution for the issue that is hitting the Welsh...
you do clearly recognise that exceptions do exist, like with Shanklin, so really it is a debate on exactly where that lies

Basically, if someone qualifies for Wales in any way they're Welsh and if they play for anyone it's poaching (e.g. Josh Lewsey, Martin Corry, etc).

Can we stop with the pointless roundabout argument now?

Basically Ireland are doing fine. The only change that should be put in is either 4 or 5 NIQ player limit rather than the +1. That would be a very sensible solution (especially if the IRFU can veto players if too many NIQ players in particular positions)

AD - It's a bit rich that you think Loxton and Jarvis aren't any good yet would want to deny them a living from rugby outside Wales!

The IRFU set limits on the provinces about non Ireland qualified players (NIQs) and Connacht signed Loxton and Jarvis because they thought they wouldn't affect their quota. If L&J are indeed tied to Wales then I suspect there are sufficient grounds to recind the contracts, so Connacht/IRFU are acting on the lads behalf as much as anyone else.

I have to agree with you on Rhys Ruddock though. It was a masterstroke by Kidney to ensure three backrow injuries and a broken arm happened at the same time that meant he was the only matchfit IQ backrow available in the world, AND then add the enticement of playing against the All Blacks. He was obviously suckered into saying yes.

mrsuperclear wrote:You really don't get it Alyn. These people who may not have been born in Ireland are Irish. This is not Ireland scouring the world it is Irish people representing Ireland. You seem to be completely disregarding the idea that someone can feel they are a specific nationality even if they weren't born in that country. You don't understand it or else you want to ignore it. Either way, you have no right to say that someone is something just because they were born somewhere.

Times 100. If players are Irish AND Welsh, or Irish AND English or Irish AND Australian, we offer them a choice. And they make that choice. Asking Irish people if they want to play for Ireland is not a problem for me. It might be stretching it when we go back to grandparents, but you can be more than one nationality.

AlynDavies wrote:

snoopster wrote:This argument about the Irish stealing players from Wales being outrageous seems odd - more than one English based player has turned out for Wales over the years... but it is hard for me to see anything wrong with Shanklin being picked by Wales all the same. All countries keep an eye out for promising players they can select regardless of where they are.

Well Shanklin is pretty clear cut, his parents are Welsh and his father Jim Shanklin was a Welsh international himself, Tom actually played for London Welsh. Unless you want to work in a super market or be a lorry driver you petty much have to live in England, so clearly for Wales there are going to be issues of Welsh players with Welsh parents moving to England for education and work having their children born there. It seems to be more and more common issue for us. Almost all my friends from school now live in England. Wages for the same job are almost double in England which probably says it all.

Yeah, and why do you think so many people from Irish families are born overseas in the first place? Economic migration baby. Even the Ruddocks only grew up in Wales because of their Dad's job and then made the decision to move back to Ireland.

HarpinOnRugby wrote:You have to look at this from the outside not the inside IMHO. The southern hemisphere countries have so many more rugby players than we do, yet still have only the one national team. That means dozens upon dozens of Test-quality players are going to be on the market to put in their time and qualify for other countries. If we dont compete for at least some of them, other countries will get them. So as things stand right now, I say yes, we should be involved, as we already are.

But the real question is...is the 3-year rule fair? Or should it be more? If I'm an Irish player just leaving school and being accepted by a provincial Academy, how am I going to feel if a South African who plays in my position has been brought to Ireland at the same time to qualify in 3 years, around the time when I'll hopefully be breaking through at provincial level?

From the outside SA, France and England have by far the biggest number of players. So you should nick theirs and leave NZ's alone.
It's interesting that many people harp on about NZ poaching PI players and yet we have never had this kind of debate. Probably because we are so clever we poach them when they are 3 years old or even poach their parents who have never played rugby.
Given that someone can migrate to Ireland, take out citizenship, stand for office and fight and die for their adopted country it would seem a little rough to not allow them to play rugby for Ireland.

I find it amusing that Ireland are being criticised when we will, almost certaintly, be the only top flight nation at the WC cup without a single player in the squad who qualified through residency.

In addition we will have only one player (Tom Court) who will qualify through a grandparent.

Thats the trouble with facts !

It's a bit rich Alyn. Geoff says it very clearly there and also others have said that if a player is eligible for Ireland AND another country then it is their choice.

Your idea on Rhys Ruddocks motivation is hilarious. Can't believe you have so little understanding of the situation.

O'Gara was born in America and heaslip in Israel should they not be allowed to play?
What about James O'Connor who had the choice to play for NZ, SA, AUS or ZIMBABWEE?

Our foreign born players in our 43 man squad consist of Boss and Court. Ruddock is not foreign born. His mother is Irish. Don't think there are any others.

THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS...

Ireland have a plan to use the residency rule whereas England for example do not. We chose a player and focus on him becoming Irish qualified.
In England they have so many foreign players in their league they don't have to. Think of Vainokolo, both Tualangi's, Hartley, Hape, Flutey. They are technichally English qualified. The Irish provinces are strong enough not to need foreign players in their clubs to the same extent and thus the situation that frequently arises in England rarely does in Ireland.

geoff998rugby wrote:I find it amusing that Ireland are being criticised when we will, almost certaintly, be the only top flight nation at the WC cup without a single player in the squad who qualified through residency.

In addition we will have only one player (Tom Court) who will qualify through a grandparent.

Thats the trouble with facts !

Indeed. And there will be more players with "Place of Birth: New Zealand" in it than any other country

Kiwireddevil wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:I find it amusing that Ireland are being criticised when we will, almost certaintly, be the only top flight nation at the WC cup without a single player in the squad who qualified through residency.

In addition we will have only one player (Tom Court) who will qualify through a grandparent.

Thats the trouble with facts !

Indeed. And there will be more players with "Place of Birth: New Zealand" in it than any other country

Really ???? - Name them
Boss will not make the cut by the way.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:I find it amusing that Ireland are being criticised when we will, almost certaintly, be the only top flight nation at the WC cup without a single player in the squad who qualified through residency.

In addition we will have only one player (Tom Court) who will qualify through a grandparent.

Thats the trouble with facts !

Indeed. And there will be more players with "Place of Birth: New Zealand" in it than any other country

Really ???? - Name them
Boss will not make the cut by the way.

I haven't seen the Samoan squad yet. But last year half their players were NZ born. There was an article in the NZ media in 07 (can't find it now so feel free to disbelieve me ) that had something like 40 NZ born players at RWC07, with around 22 of them in the All Blacks ...

Ah, so "in it" meant "in the WC" not "in the Ireland squad"...?

Thats what I thought he meant GreyBeard.

There be no Kiwis in the Ireland squad

greybeard wrote:Ah, so "in it" meant "in the WC" not "in the Ireland squad"...?

Yes, sorry. Apologies, that was sloppy of me.