Ulster squad additions

First topic message reminder :

All of the following will be contracted to Ulster next year - I don't know the nature of each contract though

Niall Annett
Jerry Cronin
Craig Gilroy
Paddy Jackson
Adam Macklin
Luke Marshall
James McKinney
Ian Porter

Will supply a fully list shortly - still no mention of Bryan Young. Also no mention of Gaston yet

I am sure there will be changes.

Not least of the problems is as mentioned above we dont want a 11 and why would Leinster want a 9 or indeed a 14.

The rules dont come in till 2013/14 so the old rules apply next year and also the re signing rule doesn't apply till then. Therefore it is my understanding Ulster can re sign Pienaer for say 2 year which would mean Ulster would have the 9 slot for the first year of the new system.

As things stand only 3 NIE players have contract for 2013/14

Afoa - 3
Sykes - 5
Payne - 15

The rest are up for grabs.

Given that both Leinster and Munster have 2 IQ 9's and 2 IQ 10's I think Ulster will have reasonable leeway in the halfback department.

So, in short, is the current understanding..
- 'No renewals allowed'
- Sign a new foreign player if you prove there is a pressing need and no other province has an NIE in that position.
Strange if true!

So we could sign Kaino but not renew Pienaar even though both Leinster & Munster have arguably the 4 1st choice Irish 9's (i.e. no foreigners.)

Nonsensical rules that need to be clarified quickly before someone else snaps up Pienaar!

Overall I see the point of these directives is in encouraging development of Irish players, but we need cover for the Rabo league while the internationals are all away. At risk here is the provinces competitiveness in the Rabo & HC.

Thanks Geoff, your previous comment makes it a little clearer, although it all seems a bit convoluted!
So in short with the new rules you wouldn't be allowed to automatically resign players, but it might be with agreement of the IRFU and thus the other 3 provinces, subject to need

Whats the real long term objective here...to remove all NIE players for the 3 provinces?

RF09 wrote:Thanks Geoff, your previous comment makes it a little clearer, although it all seems a bit convoluted!
So in short with the new rules you wouldn't be allowed to automatically resign players, but it might be with agreement of the IRFU and thus the other 3 provinces, subject to need

Whats the real long term objective here...to remove all NIE players for the 3 provinces?

As written the new rules you can never re sign a player but I suspect that this one rule that might be modified provided, as you mention, the other 2 Provinces agree (Connacht dont count as they are outside the system)

The object is 1 NIE player for each position not the elimination of NIE completely

As if his 'rumours' needed backing up anyway but this is interesting Geoff. About halfway down the article.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/news/9006061/Bill-Beaumont-poised-to-become-next-chairman-of-Rugby-Football-Union.html

Northampton are on the verge of signing Gloucester No 8 Luke Narraway as a replacement for former Ireland forward Roger Wilson, who is set to return to his former province Ulster next season.

Good a great player to strengthen the squad, and remember he is a H-cup finalist. Hopfully he has turned into the model pro, In Humph we trust.

If we are looking at ferris, Wilson, Henry, Faloon, birch, Diack, mccomish and a potential NIQ then you have to give humph et al massive credit. That is the squad strengthening equivalent of taking a frown and turning it upside down

Just checked Roger Wilson's contract is definitely up this coming summer. Really does look like this one has legs.

Says to me we have given up persuading any southerner to come north which makes a bit of a nonsense of the new rules being proposed as it would only work with rotation between provinces.

Kingshu wrote:Northampton are on the verge of signing Gloucester No 8 Luke Narraway as a replacement for former Ireland forward Roger Wilson, who is set to return to his former province Ulster next season.

Good a great player to strengthen the squad, and remember he is a H-cup finalist. Hopfully he has turned into the model pro, In Humph we trust.

I am a big fan. He has been Northampton's most consistent player for the past three years and would do a marvellous job for us. I would have no problems with his professionalism. There were some issues in his last season with us but that's all behind him now.

geoff998rugby wrote:Just checked Roger Wilson's contract is definitely up this coming summer. Really does look like this one has legs.

Says to me we have given up persuading any southerner to come north which makes a bit of a nonsense of the new rules being proposed as it would only work with rotation between provinces.

Irrespective of that Geoff, Wilson is as good an IQ signing as we could have got. humph snr pulls through again it seems. I agree regarding the lack of southerners coming north though.

Wilson will block the opportunities for the young backrows far more than an NIE signing ever would as he will be expecting to finish his career with Ulster.

It's disappointing that none of the promising Leinster nor Munster backrows particularly Ryan or Ruddock have so little ambition they refuse to move North. If they wait as long as Kieran Lewis did for an opening they may find the ticket to the Test team long expired. Alternatively in the face of limited opportunities they will catch the boat overseas, and move off the Ireland radar altogether?

Still if Ulster can afford Wilson, and don't feel pressured to pick him in their HEC team, then he probably is as good an IE player as they can attract.

I've mixed feelings about Wilson to be honest. He's a useful addition but don't think he offers more than Faloon and Henry on the pitch.

If hes happy enough to play in the Rabo and the odd HEC appearance then fair enough but if hes expecting to be the central player he was before then its a bad move for all concerned.

We've moved on considerably since he was last with us, on and off the pitch.

The Great Aukster wrote:Wilson will block the opportunities for the young backrows far more than an NIE signing ever would as he will be expecting to finish his career with Ulster.

Which young backrowers will be preventing playing at No 8 ?

The whole point is the only IQ option we have is Diack and he hasn't deliveed.

There is no one coming through the Ulster ranks in the No 8 position

I for one would be very happy if Wilson is to return to Ulste, always rated the guy and he has been very consistant performance wise for the Saints the last few seasons

Pienaar signed an extension! COME ON! suftum!

As has Marshall both for 2 years !!!

So that is 9 sown up for Ulster

Do we have to get rid of one NIQ player next year?

happy days!!

Delighted with that. Pienaar has been so influential he would have been a major loss if we hadn't got him signed.
Marshall will get plenty of time and hopefully Porter/McIlroy will also come through.

Fantastic news! World domination is coming!

1F'sgonnagetya! wrote:Do we have to get rid of one NIQ player next year?

Not sure we have to but Danielli wont be replaced.

We are all set now bar the backrow.

Again Humph is doing the business getting next years contracts out of the way nice and early so that there is no distraction.

We always felt that 2012-13 was the year we would be ready to step up a level.
If we get the backrow right I think we might just do that.

One unintended consequence Pienaer junior will be IQ

geoff998rugby wrote:One unintended consequence Pienaer junior will be IQ

Love It!!

The timing of this announcement is brilliant. It's like fergie esque with the timing. Gets the support going even before match day. Great stuff

<weeps for joy>

Absolutely Stand - deliberate I'd say.

I also am of the firm conviction that the only hold up was clarifying with Dublin how a new contract that went into 2013-14 sat with the new NIE rules.

It is interesting that Ulster have 3 top players signed up for 2013-14

Afoa, Pienaer and Payne

Leinster have 1 average one - Sykes
and Munster have none.

Got to say delighted we seemed to be well on the way to having ourselves sorted for 2013-14 let alone next year when the other 2 have more to do to sort out their squads.

Personally I'd be quite happy to see Pedre stay. He's given his all and with Wilson coming then our back row is more than strong enough.

Give Danielli a pat on the back and let him be one his way and thats all the changes we need imo.

The players are there so its time to start challenging for some silverware.

I am a big fan of Pedrie. but I think if we can get someone that brings what he does and breaks the gainline more then it is a no brainer. In saying that I wouldn't be sorry at all to see him stay.

What we musn't do is talk to Kaino, then Wannenberg leaves and then Kaino says no. We do not want to rusing around trying to sign a player at the last minute.

Having said that you can hardly fault Humphreys for the way he has handled matters since he took over

In Humph we trust

Geoff have you seen this??

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/16511721.stm

Pienaar has signed another contract??

So if we were to sign Kaino - would that be for the 2012/13 season? His contract runs out after this season?

Few other contract to go but he would be the last of the NIE ones.

I have just had it confirmed that we are definitely talking to Roger Wilson - it is not just paper talk

geoff998rugby wrote:What we musn't do is talk to Kaino, then Wannenberg leaves and then Kaino says no. We do not want to rusing around trying to sign a player at the last minute.

Exactly. Obviously you wouldn't turn down the opportunity to sign Kaino but loyalty works both ways and Pedrie has put his heart and soul into Ulster. Unless we get someone considerably better, and there's probably not too many that fit that bill, then I think we should offer Pedrie a new contract.

Great news about Pienaar.

geoff998rugby wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Wilson will block the opportunities for the young backrows far more than an NIE signing ever would as he will be expecting to finish his career with Ulster.

Which young backrowers will be preventing playing at No 8 ?

The whole point is the only IQ option we have is Diack and he hasn't deliveed.

There is no one coming through the Ulster ranks in the No 8 position

In the short term I was thinking of the young guys who could have come from the other provinces - Ruddock/Ryan/Butler etc. The thrust of the IRFU diktat is to free up provincial places because supply is outstripping demand. Leinster have Heaslip/SOB/Jennings/McLaughlin/Ruddock/ Ryan and Auva'a (potentially IE) who are all relatively close in age so where do they get the experience they need if no-one moves?

I rate Henry as being a better 8 than Wilson so I would disagree about Diack being the only IE option.

However if Wilson comes he is likely to be involved with the squad for 3/4 years and that means that longer term the young Ulster guys like Joyce and Simpson who played against Leinster won't even get those opportunities. The problem is that if Ulster get another NIE for two years they will be forced to replace him with an IE replacement and with the likelihood that Ferris might not have a long career, Ulster could find themselves with two pairs of very big shoes to fill, and only Chris Henry with the necessary class and experience.

Still Pienaar is here for two more years so why worry beyond that!

Rumours abound that Ruddock might head down to Munster. Whatever the numbers at leinster in the backrow we dont seem to be able to attract young southerners north Aukster.

Wilson is a good signing for a few years and Birch i can see getting gametime next season. leinster have managed their squad really well in the last couple of years. We have to trust whoever is in charge to do the same.

Serious teams have seriously good players in every position.

I have a simple formula SU - Ulster should have (aspirations for) three players for every position: Cat 1 Test/HEC class, cat 2 HEC/P12 class, Cat 3 P12/Ravens class.
So for No.8 Ulster have Wannenburg/New NIE as their Test class player [tick].
Henry AND Diack as their HEC/P12 class player [tick,tick?]
... and no-one as their P12/Ravens player [blank].

This last category should populated by the tyros who will seamlessly move up a level when they are ready. Wilson goes straight to category 2, with no prospect of moving to category 1, and no prospect of anyone arriving in Cat 3 displacing him for the next couple of years. BTW the success of the team is determined by the quality of the Cat 1 players!

I can understand Ruddock moving because he has Auva'a/McLaughlin taking his place when Heaslip/SOB are away. But last time I looked Munster also have some seriously good backrow prospects and unlike Leinster their first choice players are more likely to be around more often. So if he moves south will he have more opportunities or less?

Who are the seriously good back row prospects for Munster? Apart from POM. Butler looks pretty good but I wouldn't say he is a "seriously good" prospect. Can't think of any others but them two either. I think Ruddock would be a great addition to the Munster back row.

Munster have o'mahoney who could be top drawer and then DOC2 and Butler who hav nowhere near the experience of Ruddock.

For arguments sake if Kaino and wilson signed we would have

6. Ferris/Kaino/McComish
7. Henry/ Faloon/ Birch
8. Kaino/Wilson/Diack

Now in that example 7 is perfect for your model and 6 and 8 have a level above your ravens player( technically as both have played Pro12). Therein the McGuigans/Gallaghers etc have a chance to push on and displace the Diacks who will, most likely not be offered a contract. these tyros younrefer to in category 3 need to displace the Wilson s and Henry s of the world otherwise they might not be tyros at all.

Standulstermen wrote:Munster have o'mahoney who could be top drawer and then DOC2 and Butler who hav nowhere near the experience of Ruddock.

For arguments sake if Kaino and wilson signed we would have

6. Ferris/Kaino/McComish
7. Henry/ Faloon/ Birch
8. Kaino/Wilson/Diack

Now in that example 7 is perfect for your model and 6 and 8 have a level above your ravens player( technically as both have played Pro12). Therein the McGuigans/Gallaghers etc have a chance to push on and displace the Diacks who will, most likely not be offered a contract. these tyros younrefer to in category 3 need to displace the Wilson s and Henry s of the world otherwise they might not be tyros at all.

Thanks for thinking of us lads but Tommy O'Donnell as well as butler, doc and also pat O'Haras youngfellow coming through. Unlike Ulster we only need a couple of folk with funny accents, however everyone in Ulster has funny accents ...erm

No funny accents = no scrum, though.

The Great Aukster wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote: Wilson will block the opportunities for the young backrows far more than an NIE signing ever would as he will be expecting to finish his career with Ulster.

Which young backrowers will be preventing playing at No 8 ?

The whole point is the only IQ option we have is Diack and he hasn't deliveed.

There is no one coming through the Ulster ranks in the No 8 position

The Great Aukster wrote:
In the short term I was thinking of the young guys who could have come from the other provinces - Ruddock/Ryan/Butler etc.

We have tried the southerner route and they all turn us down that includes Ruddock

The Great Aukster wrote: I rate Henry as being a better 8 than Wilson so I would disagree about Diack being the only IE option.

The club primarily see Henry as a 7 to give us a physical backrow

The Great Aukster wrote: However if Wilson comes he is likely to be involved with the squad for 3/4 years and that means that longer term the young Ulster guys like Joyce and Simpson who played against Leinster won't even get those opportunities.

Simpson is a 2nd row rather than a backrow. Also we only have 3 players up to scratch for next year in the backrow - Ferris, Henry, Faloon we simply have to sign 2 and only 1 can be NIE

The Great Aukster wrote: The problem is that if Ulster get another NIE for two years they will be forced to replace him with an IE replacement and with the likelihood that Ferris might not have a long career, Ulster could find themselves with two pairs of very big shoes to fill, and only Chris Henry with the necessary class and experience.

We will only have 1 NIE backrower on our books in the new system. We could still sign a 6 and an 7 and move Henry to 8 to address the scenario you have put forward

Justice for Pedrie!.....

I was thinking back when we first got linked with Rush, we all thought it was a good signing, but I'm now so glad he didn't come.

We got Pedre instead and over the last two years I think Pedre has been better, Rush at his peak was better that Pedre every would be, but I think that when we were talking to hime he was past it, if we had him now we'd be looking for a replacement, whereas it's our choice to replace Pedre or not and if he stays, he's still got a few years left in him. Also I've never been sure if we had got Rush could we have got Muller as well? If no then Pedre and Muller is far better than Rush + another. didn't get Peel so got Pienaar instead, Didn't get Cory Jane got Payne (who by accounts will be great and cheaper than Jane), lsot Botha got Aofa.

So I almost hope that Kaino doesn't come, as Humph then manages to always get someone better or just as good for cheaper. If Kanio doesn't come we could end up with Juggenaught from the X-men!

Yer ditch Kaino ...bring on McCaw

geoff998rugby wrote:Yer ditch Kaino ...bring on McCaw

Justice for Faloon!!...

If we pummell the Tigers tomorrow and qualify for the HEC QF, as I expect us to do, can we please just accept that we have a cracking squad of players, re-sign pedrie, send Danielli to the knackers yard and tell Kaino (nicely of course) that he's surplus to requirements?? ........

[quote="DOD"]

Standulstermen wrote:Munster have o'mahoney who could be top drawer and then DOC2 and Butler who hav nowhere near the experience of Ruddock.

For arguments sake if Kaino and wilson signed we would have

6. Ferris/Kaino/McComish
7. Henry/ Faloon/ Birch
8. Kaino/Wilson/Diack

Now in that example 7 is perfect for your model and 6 and 8 have a level above your ravens player( technically as both have played Pro12). Therein the McGuigans/Gallaghers etc have a chance to push on and displace the Diacks who will, most likely not be offered a contract. these tyros younrefer to in category 3 need to displace the Wilson s and Henry s of the world otherwise they might not be tyros at all

Forgot about TOD who looked good before going off up here. Fact remains DOD that Ruddock would most likely see plenty of game time at Munster. It would be a good move for both parties.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Who are the seriously good back row prospects for Munster? Apart from POM. Butler looks pretty good but I wouldn't say he is a "seriously good" prospect. Can't think of any others but them two either. I think Ruddock would be a great addition to the Munster back row.

Sorry Rory, my adjective obviously bothers you, and rather than have a discussion on the semantics between "seriously good" and "pretty good", perhaps it might be easier if I just said Munster had some good prospects?

AFAIK the guys who can play backrow at Munster are:
Wallace, Leamy, Coughlan, Ronan, POM, Donnacha Ryan, Tommy O'Donnell, Billy Holland, David O'Callaghan, Paddy Butler, Shane Buckley and Brian O'Hara.

Of that lot only Donnacha Ryan is likely to be away with Ireland much and he's really a lock now anyway,
Buckley and O'Hara are still junior but good prospects nonetheless - still leaves 9 players vying for the same playing opportunities. Not sure where Ruddock would slot into that list, but it will inevitably push someone else back.

My point was that Ruddock would have seen at least as much time at Ulster as he would at Munster and it also woundn't have blocked their prospects.