Ulster squad additions

First topic message reminder :

All of the following will be contracted to Ulster next year - I don't know the nature of each contract though

Niall Annett
Jerry Cronin
Craig Gilroy
Paddy Jackson
Adam Macklin
Luke Marshall
James McKinney
Ian Porter

Will supply a fully list shortly - still no mention of Bryan Young. Also no mention of Gaston yet

Thats all true Don but there is a way to go about doing things and this isn't it.

BM has achieved the targets he's been set, perhaps exceeded them so its hard not to have sympathy for him after the way this has been handled.

Based on this season you could argue that he desrves at least another season at the helm. We are certainly on an upward curve.

What targets rodders?

How can you say he will benefit Ulster more at the academy when you don't know who is successor is as head coach?

And being professional does not exclude treating people (particularly your staff) with a bit of respect and decency. In fact, I'd say that is one of the main ingredients of being professional.

Did he achieve the targets he was set? Or is that conjecture?

I have enormous respect and affection for McL, and couldn't watch all of that horror-show. Do I think this is a messy, unpleasant, indignities episode. Yes, and I lay that squarely at the feet of whoever leaked this.

Do I think B McL should be coach next year? Much less certain.

Sin - that's a fair enough question. The answer, simply, is that I have faith in Humph and Logie.

I would compare my feelings on it to the Wannenburg situation.

Does he deserve another year or so? Quite possibly
Should we retain him if there is a Kaino out there? No

A lot will depend on who we bring in. I will wait and see who that is and how they do before passing judgement. As i said previously there is plenty of revisionism going on here regarding mclaughins tenure.

Obviously feel for McL but I am actually quite excited about this! The decision was based on what Humph and Logan believe to be for the best of Ulster rugby, and based on their track record you can't really doubt them! And who better to coach our academy than a Heineken Cup winning coach!

I get the feeling that each of the parties came away from that "discussion before Christmas" with a different view on what was going to happen. Each interpreted what was said in a different way, unbeknown to the other.

I don't think there would have been any intent to mislead.

Then someone said something to the press which was clearly a surprise to BM.

Just feel it has all been handled very very badly.

I do trust Humph and Logan to do the best for Ulster but just wish the mechanism had been different.

Standulstermen wrote:What targets rodders?

Last year the target was to reach the Magners top 4 and HEC QF. Not sure what they were this year but the seasons not over and we are in the HEC QF again.

Don Alfonso wrote:Sin - that's a fair enough question. The answer, simply, is that I have faith in Humph and Logie.

I'd say Ulster will find it difficult to get a high profile coach now - too many coaches getting the heave-ho in Ulster (even when they are doing well) and Humphreys seeming to be the one that calls all the shots - it would be a huge risk to their reputation.

Heard on newstalk that John Kirwan was being sounded out for the job. Apparently he's keen.

Mickado wrote:Heard on newstalk that John Kirwan was being sounded out for the job. Apparently he's keen.

He said he would be keen if approached but he hasn't been approached. If interviews have already taken place then I doubt he is in the running

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Sin - that's a fair enough question. The answer, simply, is that I have faith in Humph and Logie.

I'd say Ulster will find it difficult to get a high profile coach now - too many coaches getting the heave-ho in Ulster (even when they are doing well) and Humphreys seeming to be the one that calls all the shots - it would be a huge risk to their reputation.

Please tell me of any previous coach who got the heavy ho when he was doing well - there isn't one.
Matt Williams was doing badly and wanted to do the job part time, under Mark McCall the dressing room was in melt down, under Alan Solomons we had failed to qualify at all to the final stages of the HC inspite of bringing in some expensive SH front rowers.

Ulster have interviewed 3 people (Kirwan isn't one of them) - I don't know who they are. Kirwan has put himself forward but Ulster as of a few days ago had not interviewed him - I dont know if they will or not.

Bottom line is at no time was McLaughlin given any indication he would be Head Coach next year, just the opposite.
He has done well, but my gut feeling is we can do better - at the moment we are too dependant on the leadership, dare I say coaching skills, of our lead players.

I am ok with the change BUT because of the leak it has been handled badly.

The whole affair makes me feel very uneasy. This is a very footballesque episode and does not to me speak well of Ulster as a club/province. I have no problem with us being ambitious. In fact its amazing to see where we are from the debacles of a few years ago. But to wheel McLaughlin out for a press conference was classless from start to finish. Obviously there was a leak which has not helped the situation, and kept under wraps this might have been a very different scenario. But one is left to ponder what the players think and how it will affect the rest of the season?

How do people feel about Kirwin? What is his club coaching pedigree?

Personally I'd prefer Cheika. He turned Leinster into an HEC winning side and has the inside track on Irish Rugby. BOD spoke highly off him and considered joining him in France after he left.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Sin - that's a fair enough question. The answer, simply, is that I have faith in Humph and Logie.

I'd say Ulster will find it difficult to get a high profile coach now - too many coaches getting the heave-ho in Ulster (even when they are doing well) and Humphreys seeming to be the one that calls all the shots - it would be a huge risk to their reputation.

Please tell me of any previous coach who got the heavy ho when he was doing well - there isn't one.
Matt Williams was doing badly and wanted to do the job part time, under Mark McCall the dressing room was in melt down, under Alan Solomons we had failed to qualify at all to the final stages of the HC inspite of bringing in some expensive SH front rowers.

Ulster have interviewed 3 people (Kirwan isn't one of them) - I don't know who they are. Kirwan has put himself forward but Ulster as of a few days ago had not interviewed him - I dont know if they will or not.

Bottom line is at no time was McLaughlin given any indication he would be Head Coach next year, just the opposite.
He has done well, but my gut feeling is we can do better - at the moment we are too dependant on the leadership, dare I say coaching skills, of our lead players.

I am ok with the change BUT because of the leak it has been handled badly.

I have heard of one contender with a certain degree of certainty from a good friend of mine 'in the know.' He nearly always tells me accurate information, though he did tell me last season that Ulster were on the verge of signing Kevin McLaughlin up so make of this as you see fit. Mark McCall is being considered for sure.
I have been told with a degree of certainty that their first choice in Nick Mallett who they continue to court, but don't believe he has much interest in this job and is holding out for the end of the Six Nations to assess his options. Connor O'Shea is said to have absolutely no interest in the position whatsoever. Matt Sexton is interested and has put out feelers but Humphreys and Logan want a bigger name.

I would be delighted with McCall. Over the moon .

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Sin - that's a fair enough question. The answer, simply, is that I have faith in Humph and Logie.

I'd say Ulster will find it difficult to get a high profile coach now - too many coaches getting the heave-ho in Ulster (even when they are doing well) and Humphreys seeming to be the one that calls all the shots - it would be a huge risk to their reputation.

Please tell me of any previous coach who got the heavy ho when he was doing well - there isn't one.
Matt Williams was doing badly and wanted to do the job part time, under Mark McCall the dressing room was in melt down, under Alan Solomons we had failed to qualify at all to the final stages of the HC inspite of bringing in some expensive SH front rowers.

Ulster have interviewed 3 people (Kirwan isn't one of them) - I don't know who they are. Kirwan has put himself forward but Ulster as of a few days ago had not interviewed him - I dont know if they will or not.

Bottom line is at no time was McLaughlin given any indication he would be Head Coach next year, just the opposite.
He has done well, but my gut feeling is we can do better - at the moment we are too dependant on the leadership, dare I say coaching skills, of our lead players.

I am ok with the change BUT because of the leak it has been handled badly.

McLaughlin was doing well and he got the heave-ho.

Whats the problem with the players providing the leadership (most would think that is the ideal situation). On the pitch is where you need the leadership. Munster will always give Jim Williams a lot of credit for what he brought to the table from both a skills point of view and a leadership one - and his coach was one of the most successful coaches around.

Alan Quinlan commented a few weeks back (could have been after the game against Clermont) that Brian McLaughlin was a terrific skills coach (he had him with Ireland). Said he was brilliant at the breakdown.

The leak is a symptom that all is not good in UR.

roddersm wrote:I would be delighted with McCall. Over the moon .

I would have very mixed feelings about it. He did a decent job at Ulster, and Castres and a very good job actually at Saracans where politics behind the scenes makes Ulster look like the Promised Land. But I also can't forget how he couldn't control a locker room of discontented players leading to Best, Wilson and Bowe leaving. I am not saying that this was his fault necessarily, but wounder if this might count against him

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Sin - that's a fair enough question. The answer, simply, is that I have faith in Humph and Logie.

I'd say Ulster will find it difficult to get a high profile coach now - too many coaches getting the heave-ho in Ulster (even when they are doing well) and Humphreys seeming to be the one that calls all the shots - it would be a huge risk to their reputation.

Please tell me of any previous coach who got the heavy ho when he was doing well - there isn't one.
Matt Williams was doing badly and wanted to do the job part time, under Mark McCall the dressing room was in melt down, under Alan Solomons we had failed to qualify at all to the final stages of the HC inspite of bringing in some expensive SH front rowers.

Ulster have interviewed 3 people (Kirwan isn't one of them) - I don't know who they are. Kirwan has put himself forward but Ulster as of a few days ago had not interviewed him - I dont know if they will or not.

Bottom line is at no time was McLaughlin given any indication he would be Head Coach next year, just the opposite.
He has done well, but my gut feeling is we can do better - at the moment we are too dependant on the leadership, dare I say coaching skills, of our lead players.

I am ok with the change BUT because of the leak it has been handled badly.

McLaughlin was doing well and he got the heave-ho.

Whats the problem with the players providing the leadership (most would think that is the ideal situation). On the pitch is where you need the leadership. Munster will always give Jim Williams a lot of credit for what he brought to the table from both a skills point of view and a leadership one - and his coach was one of the most successful coaches around.

Alan Quinlan commented a few weeks back (could have been after the game against Clermont) that Brian McLaughlin was a terrific skills coach (he had him with Ireland). Said he was brilliant at the breakdown.

The leak is a symptom that all is not good in UR.

I have said many many times in various old 606 forums and here in 606v2 that it is not coincidence that Ireland's basic skills have gone downhill since McLaughlin left the Irish setup. He should be reappointed there rather than be demoted in the Ulster setup.

Sin you used the term Many coaches ... that clearly is a plural.

McLaughlin is the first and as I say there is at least a question mark as towho actually coaches the team in various aspects.

McCall was not ALLOWED to control the dressing room that is the whole point. ******* like Best were allowed to go to the ******** CEO and bend his ear and get what they wanted.

geoff998rugby wrote:Sin you used the term Many coaches ... that clearly is a plural.

McLaughlin is the first and as I say there is at least a question mark as towho actually coaches the team in various aspects.

McCall was not ALLOWED to control the dressing room that is the whole point. ******* like Best were allowed to go to the ******** CEO and bend his ear and get what they wanted.

You are quite right Geoff about McCall, but the question remains if you have Humphreys and Logan interferring then would McCall be put in that same position again. I am not into any sort of conspiracy about McLaughlin's demotion, but questions certainly been raised about the degree of control the head coach, whoever that might be, would have over the squad.

With Wilson and Bowe returning would McCall be the best option?

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Sin you used the term Many coaches ... that clearly is a plural.

McLaughlin is the first and as I say there is at least a question mark as towho actually coaches the team in various aspects.

McCall was not ALLOWED to control the dressing room that is the whole point. ******* like Best were allowed to go to the ******** CEO and bend his ear and get what they wanted.

You are quite right Geoff about McCall, but the question remains if you have Humphreys and Logan interferring then would McCall be put in that same position again. I am not into any sort of conspiracy about McLaughlin's demotion, but questions certainly been raised about the degree of control the head coach, whoever that might be, would have over the squad.

I dont think there are any question marks about Humphreys and Logan interferring.
Humphreys does not select the team, Humphreys does not coach the team - this seems to be like a classic case of adding 2+2 and getting 5

3 people have been interviewed already Geoff?

Surely we can make an educated guess? Sexton, Cheika, an other?

Golden wrote:With Wilson and Bowe returning would McCall be the best option?

Bowe left because of the way a number of other individuals conducted themselves. If you like he was in the pro McCall camp.

Wilson was a silly boy but recognises now he was out of order and is appropriately contrite - I don't see it as an issue. He knows he allowed himself to be led astray by another individual. He has been made fully aware that Ulster is a very very different club from the one he left, he doesn't seem to have an issue with that.

[quote="geoff998rugby"][quote="Hookisms and Hyperbole"]

geoff998rugby wrote:I dont think there are any question marks about Humphreys and Logan interferring.
Humphreys does not select the team, Humphreys does not coach the team - this seems to be like a classic case of adding 2+2 and getting 5

That's not what I mean and I am quite aware of how the coaching set up works thanks. I meant interfering behind the scenes. If Humphreys is responsible for player recruitment and let's say one of the South Africans has a problem, do they go to him or to McCall? Is there not a risk of a repeat of the Neill Best fiasco again in this sort of set up?

Humphreys does the recruiting though Geoff. Surely a big name, experienced coach will want control of all squad affairs including player recruitment.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Sin you used the term Many coaches ... that clearly is a plural.

McLaughlin is the first and as I say there is at least a question mark as towho actually coaches the team in various aspects.

McCall was not ALLOWED to control the dressing room that is the whole point. ******* like Best were allowed to go to the ******** CEO and bend his ear and get what they wanted.

You are quite right Geoff about McCall, but the question remains if you have Humphreys and Logan interferring then would McCall be put in that same position again. I am not into any sort of conspiracy about McLaughlin's demotion, but questions certainly been raised about the degree of control the head coach, whoever that might be, would have over the squad.

I dont think there are any question marks about Humphreys and Logan interferring.
Humphreys does not select the team, Humphreys does not coach the team - this seems to be like a classic case of adding 2+2 and getting 5

The optics are that Humphreys is running the show. Is Humphreys going to back off now? Can't see the likes of Cheika having Humphs looking over his shoulder. Most top head coaches wouldn't tolerate it.

Humphreys does not run the show - Logan does.

The difference with the Best situation was the player in that situation was allowed to undermine the coach, under the current set up that would not be allowed.

I don't know how often to say but Humphreys does not coach the team or pick the team.
He is responsible for recruitment and the team budget.

roddersm wrote:Humphreys does the recruiting though Geoff. Surely a big name, experienced coach will want control of all squad affairs including player recruitment.

That is a good point but once Bowe is on board and a NIE backrower is on board then, at least for next summer, there will be hardly any significant contracts to be renegotiated. most of the rest of the senior players are either contracted to 2014 or not going anywhere.

Only Muller of the front line players comes to mind.

geoff998rugby wrote:Humphreys does not run the show - Logan does.

The difference with the Best situation was the player in that situation was allowed to undermine the coach, under the current set up that would not be allowed.

I don't know how often to say but Humphreys does not coach the team or pick the team.
He is responsible for recruitment and the team budget.

You can say it as often as you want, but that is not what people are asking nor saying. Most of us know that he doesn't coach the team, but some posters are saying that there is a perception that he has a hand in it. John Kirwin has already stated he is interested in the job but concerned at politics behind the scenes. You can bleat that it doesn't exist, but perception here is more important than reality. If coaches think they are going to be overruled, even if they won't, it will put them off applying for the job.

And Rodders makes a good point that I tried to highlight as well. Surely a coach will want control over player recruitment so that he can build the team he wants. I think Humphreys has done a absolutely first class job here, but would be under threat from a big name head coach?

Double post

geoff998rugby wrote:Humphreys does not run the show - Logan does.

The difference with the Best situation was the player in that situation was allowed to undermine the coach, under the current set up that would not be allowed.

I don't know how often to say but Humphreys does not coach the team or pick the team.
He is responsible for recruitment and the team budget.

Under the current set-up, Humphreys would be the one undermining the coach.

Do you think a coach like Cheika would be willing to come to Ulster if he wasn't responsible for recruitment and the team budget and had to report to Humphreys?

Humphreys better watch out, Logan will be out to get him out of the way now.

You can't change peoples perceptions.

As far as I am aware non of the 3 interviewed have indicated that recent events have changed their wish to get the job.

Kirwan was not one of those three - sounds like a man out of a job trying to get into the frame. I wouldn't take much notice of his opinions to be honest.

It could just be that Humphreys was in charge of recruitment because the club realized that with the extra funds we were getting from Dublin, and given that no expense was to be incurred on improving the ground we needed to invest the money into some high profile players. Given McLaughlin's background it would have been decided, correctly imv, that he was not the man for that job.

With the squad being settled for the next two years a new coach will be able to grow into the role and if successful will take over the recruitment reigns for 2014-15 when the new rules, whatever they may be, will start to affect Ulster.

I don't think Humphreys can be criticised for his recruitment. I think he has done a pretty damn good job.

Humphreys is in charge of recruitment because McLaughlin hasn't got the skill set to do the job.

Afoa, Payne, Pienaer, Muller would not be turning out for Ulster if Humphreys had not been there.

With a new coach I would expect the structure to be very different.

Is it possible a head coach might prefer a setup where they get the same money for less work. Would the opportunity to focus on coaching rather than contracts be attractive to some? Or am I on cloud coo coo land?

So, what will Humphreys do then if he isn't responsible for recruitment?

Of the 3 interviewed, are they all head coaches where they are?

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:I don't think Humphreys can be criticised for his recruitment. I think he has done a pretty damn good job.

I agree. I'm certainly not criticising him but I can't see any experienced, top coach not wanting to be in control of recruitment.

As BM has found out the buck stops with the coach, so as head coach you will want control over all 1st team affairs.

Indeed, Sin.

Ulster rugby is Over. Finito. Done for. Might as well forget about it.


I think it's ironic given the slating Humphreys is being given here, that some posters who have commented on this issue think Conor O'Shea can just about walk on water. Isn't his job pretty much the direct equivalent of Humphreys'? And aren't some calling for him to come to Munster or Ireland? Not afraid of any confusion of roles if he were to come over?

We have had two and a half years of real improvement - last year in particular being excellent. We hit the first serious mishandling of a press conference and, suddenly, our set-up cannot work.


Sin, the same morning you say no high-profile coach will ever want the job, Kirwan starts waving his hand. So you're wrong there.

You said that there have been "too many coaches getting the heave-ho in Ulster (even when they are doing well". Geoff asked you to name one other than McL - you haven't. And, I would guess, can't.

geoff998rugby wrote:Humphreys is in charge of recruitment because McLaughlin hasn't got the skill set to do the job.
Afoa, Payne, Pienaer, Muller would not be turning out for Ulster if Humphreys had not been there.
With a new coach I would expect the structure to be very different.

Humphreys had the profile and he used it. Players come for all sorts of reasons to different clubs. ROG & Paul O'Connell met Rua Tipoki when he was playing for the Maori and encouraged him to think about coming to Munster. I bet Wian du Preez was fingered by POC/ROG when on the last Lions Tour. I'd say Doug Howlett had a word with Christian Cullen before he ventured over here. Does that mean that Declan Kidney/Garrett Fitz/Tony McGahan don't have the skill set to recruit players?

We don't know who the three interviewed individuals are - all I have seen is specualtion.

The point I am trying to make is that just because we had one set up/division of responsibilities between Humphreys and McLaughlin doesn't mean we will have the same set up with a new coach.

As to things to do for Humphreys if not in charge of recruitment there is plenty - ground redevelopment, TV, sponsorship, merchandizing, PR, communication with Dublin. I think Ulster will be keeping him busy.

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Humphreys is in charge of recruitment because McLaughlin hasn't got the skill set to do the job.
Afoa, Payne, Pienaer, Muller would not be turning out for Ulster if Humphreys had not been there.
With a new coach I would expect the structure to be very different.

Humphreys had the profile and he used it. Players come for all sorts of reasons to different clubs. ROG & Paul O'Connell met Rua Tipoki when he was playing for the Maori and encouraged him to think about coming to Munster. I bet Wian du Preez was fingered by POC/ROG when on the last Lions Tour. I'd say Doug Howlett had a word with Christian Cullen before he ventured over here. Does that mean that Declan Kidney/Garrett Fitz/Tony McGahan don't have the skill set to recruit players?

So what you are saying is Ulster did pick the best man for the job.
When Humphries spoke to Afoa, Payne, Pienaer and Muller he would have been talking to players who know him and respect him.

What would happened if they had spoken to McLaughlin - they would have been talking to someone they quite likely had never heard of and he would have had to sell the fact that Ulster have been an underperforming side who have been poor for 5 to 8 years - would you like to join us. I'll go further I actually don't believe McLaughlin wanted to take responsibility for recruitment - it was outside his comfort zone.

Without Humphreys these players would not have joined....simple

Sin é wrote: I bet Wian du Preez was fingered by POC/ROG when on the last Lions Tour.

Everyone's a loser in that situation.

Don

Don Alfonso wrote:Indeed, Sin.

Ulster rugby is Over. Finito. Done for. Might as well forget about it.

I think it's ironic given the slating Humphreys is being given here, that some posters who have commented on this issue think Conor O'Shea can just about walk on water. Isn't his job pretty much the direct equivalent of Humphreys'? And aren't some calling for him to come to Munster or Ireland? Not afraid of any confusion of roles if he were to come over?

We have had two and a half years of real improvement - last year in particular being excellent. We hit the first serious mishandling of a press conference and, suddenly, our set-up cannot work.

Sin, the same morning you say no high-profile coach will ever want the job, Kirwan starts waving his hand. So you're wrong there.

You said that there have been "too many coaches getting the heave-ho in Ulster (even when they are doing well". Geoff asked you to name one other than McL - you haven't. And, I would guess, can't.

First of all - my post was:

I'd say Ulster will find it difficult to get a high profile coach now - too many coaches getting the heave-ho in Ulster (even when they are doing well) and Humphreys seeming to be the one that calls all the shots - it would be a huge risk to their reputation.

"too many coaches getting the heave-ho in Ulster" = McLaughlin, Williams & McCall.
Compare to Leinster who have had a fair few coaches over the years (including Williams). Ella was the only one who they sent packing early. Connacht have never sacked anyone. Munster have never sacked anyone - they all managed to see out their contracts. Ulster is like a Premiership football club.
(even when they are doing well) = apologies, my meaning wasn't clear (I should have posted "even when one of them did well).

The difference between the Conor O'Shea's situation and the Ulster one is that Conor O'Shea didn't arrive on the scene and sack the head coach who was doing a decent job at the time. If O'Shea was to come to Munster, he would have had a similar role as Declan Kidney has/had with Ireland and Munster.

As for Kirwan - Newstalk contacted him. What would you expect him to say:

"For me, I'm really looking for a side that wants to go places. If Ulster are keen on winning the Heineken Cup or the Pro12 League, I'd be keen to get involved.

"It's not something that I'll pursue. If I'm on their list, that would be okay. If not, I'm not going to worry about it."

I notice Sin has started undermining Ulster a lot more since the HC QF fixtures were announced. I'm sure he'll go back to undermining Leinster in the weeks running up to our match though...

Mickado wrote:I notice Sin has started undermining Ulster a lot more since the HC QF fixtures were announced. I'm sure he'll go back to undermining Leinster in the weeks running up to our match though...

Yep, definitely seems to have a bee in is bonnet regarding us at the minute. I smell fear

Williams had to go he wasn't prepared to do the job full time and the dressing room was in melt down when McCall left (and the club in chaos I might add).

Anyone in the game knows that and it would not deter a future coach.