Thoughts on residency.

First topic message reminder :

Surely the whole point of the residency rules is that there should be accommodation for players who have had a period of development in a new nation and are prepared to represent them. So long as the players have pride in the shirt then why should they not represent it, it would be like saying immigrants cannot be proud of an adopted country and therefore should not be allowed to support our teams!

When it comes to this subject there may always be a level of contention regarding origins and newly qualified players being chosen over players who have always been of one nationality such as waldrom over narraway (who tweeted his annoyance earlier). I am not sure however why people bring up players such as Shaw and say he should be playing for Kenya despite spending most of his life in england and being of english heritage or joe simpson seems to be the new 'import' despite being brought up in england and playing most of his age grade rugby in the uk.

as you can see this is mainly aimed at the england situation but has equal relevance in many countries and maybe more in countries such as new zealand!

Tuilagi was not responsible for the legal mess he ended up in and is compliant now with UK law and IRB regulations. He came here as a child, has played all his serious rugby here, has built a life for himself and has wanted to represent England for many years.

For someone to say he has no right to fullfil that ambition seems pretty arrogant to me. Would you say it to his face?

I presume that most people would agree that three years is not enough though.

It should probably be 5 or 6 years, but most of the England players affected have been here that long. Grandparents should be irrelevant.

snoopster wrote:

Carpe Diem wrote:

red_stag wrote:

Carpe Diem wrote:Kevin-Prince plays for Ghana, George plays for the Netherlands.

Kevin-Prince played u21s for Germany then switched to Ghana.

Apologies. Its Germany U21 I was thinking about. carry on nothing to see here

It's such a convoluted career path i had to treble check to make sure i wasn't making it up!

I think you still have it mixed up - Kevin-Prince has two brothers - George (not the George Boateng you are thinking of who played for Holland and isn't related) and Jerome who plays for Germany.
They're the footballing version of the Tagicakibaus

Thought i'd finally unpicked it, thanks for the correction!

It should really be 5 years for the UK because that's how long we require for someone to become a 'citizen'. However the IRB ruling is a global ruling and I don't know what other nations have.

Flutey and Hape are the only ones who played just after qualifying and that was becasue Hape had a break in his residence and had to begin again. I think he was over for at least 6 years.

I have no problem with Manu playing for England - Hape, Flutey I do

If the 6+2 reported about is true then Wales run a Project system just like Ireland's 5+1, soon to be 4+1.

I agree with HoT re 5 years but I do see a problem tying it to citizenship. The UK may be 5 years, Ireland is 4. The problem being different countries have different periods before you become eligable.

geoff998rugby wrote:I agree with HoT re 5 years but I do see a problem tying it to citizenship. The UK may be 5 years, Ireland is 4. The problem being different countries have different periods before you become eligable.

Yep. How can we (UKians) enforce our requirements for citizenship on everyone else?

The 6+2 for Wales is supposed to come down to just 6 after next season.

HammerofThunor wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

AlynDavies wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:And Maesteg, if the RFU gave the clubs funding to bring in NEQ to gain residency qualification for England I would be enraged. I'm surprised you're not given some of your opinions.

True however all the players who are within the regions and are qualified, Wales have never bothered with, though Ben Morgan may be the exception.

The rule is not to poach players but to clarify what the clubs are doing by hiring overseas players that will qualify as a resident player that means that the regions can hire further NWQ players and still stay within the quota.

No idea what you're trying to say. Why have 6+2 and not just 8 if not to encourage the regions to bring in future residency qualifiers?

geoff998rugby wrote:

If the 6+2 reported about is true then Wales run a Project system just like Ireland's 5+1, soon to be 4+1.

The rule allows the clubs to search for experienced foreign players that aren't internationals that will give a great deal to the club and help the development of young welsh players. If they aren't former internationals then after three years they are no longer NWQs. Example Bearman and Tito both have benefitted their regions immensely.

If the rule said 8 NWQ players the regions would likely find 8 former internationals. The rule is designed by the WRU to Encourage the number of Welsh players playing top class rugby.

Wales have chosen not to select players who qualify purely through residency that have also not been through the welsh set up. They have had the opportunity to cap players like Tito and Bearman but chose to blood young players like Bradley Davies, Rob McCusker, Josh Turnbull, Lydiate and Warburton instead.

SafeAsMilk wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:It does seem that only England fans think the situation is straight.

Fortunately we have individuals like your good self and greyghost to set us on the straight and narrow. Obviously you've got no agenda and only have England's interests at heart. I will sleep soundly tonight.

I haven't got a clue what you mean by having an agenda? That makes no sense.

We are discussing the residency qualification laws which i think England in particular are taking advantage of their leniency.

Every nation in the UK and Ireland have the opportunity to choose whether they follow Englands path and select foreign players who qualify by residency.

In Wales we could have selected Paul Tito or Joe Bearman. But Wales decided it was in their interest to ignore these players and concentrate on young players who have been through the national system from youth level.

Playing with a small number of top class foreign players obviously benefits youth players. Look at how many fantastic young centres the Scarlets have produced with Regan King at the club.

But it does seem that out of the four home nations, france and the tri nations teams, the ones who have the greatest financial status, only England are selecting on residency laws in preference over players who have graduated through the English system.

maestegmafia wrote:

I haven't got a clue what you mean by having an agenda? That makes no sense.

You clearly have an agenda. It's all about the RFU trawling for players from around the world in the hope that they can represent England. You also keep saying Tuilagi is an "illegal immigrant", despite the fact that he is legally allowed to stay in this country. STOP saying he is an illegal immigrant as he isn't.

The fact is also that it is highly unlikely that Tuilagi would have ever been deported, the MP’s support may have speeded up the process of allowing him to stay but any appeal against the UK Boarder Agency would have probably succeeded

G2 wrote:The fact is also that it is highly unlikely that Tuilagi would have ever been deported, the MP’s support may have speeded up the process of allowing him to stay but any appeal against the UK Boarder Agency would have probably succeeded

... if the agency can find him in the firstplace, seems they lose heapsa people out there!!

Didn't Bearman get injured just before qualifying and never get back to form?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/my_club/ng_dragons/9093416.stm

Tito said he didn't want to play for Wales.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/my_club/cardiff_blues/8453588.stm

Stop trying to twist things. Anyone else who the WRU ignored for being foreign?

And how is allowing the regions to bring in two NWQ players who may qualify going to encourage them to play Welsh players? At least Ireland are open about it. Can't you just admit it?

maestegmafia wrote:
The rule allows the clubs to search for experienced foreign players that aren't internationals that will give a great deal to the club and help the development of young welsh players. If they aren't former internationals then after three years they are no longer NWQs.

In other words exactly the same as the Irish project system

nottins wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

I haven't got a clue what you mean by having an agenda? That makes no sense.

You clearly have an agenda. It's all about the RFU trawling for players from around the world in the hope that they can represent England. You also keep saying Tuilagi is an "illegal immigrant", despite the fact that he is legally allowed to stay in this country. STOP saying he is an illegal immigrant as he isn't.

No

I said Manu Tuialagi was an illegal immigrant. Which he was for all but the first six months of his time in the UK, until Leicester Rugby club helped encourage the UK govt to change their decision.

I don't understand why you would think I have an agenda? What would that "agenda" be?

I have just stated truthful facts about what is happening. The fact it is the RFU as opposed to a different union is not vindictive in any way. All the other major international rugby unions are not applying the IRB laws in the same way or to the same effect.

HammerofThunor wrote:Didn't Bearman get injured just before qualifying and never get back to form?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/my_club/ng_dragons/9093416.stm

Tito said he didn't want to play for Wales.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/my_club/cardiff_blues/8453588.stm

Stop trying to twist things. Anyone else who the WRU ignored for being foreign?

And how is allowing the regions to bring in two NWQ players who may qualify going to encourage them to play Welsh players? At least Ireland are open about it. Can't you just admit it?

In other words exactly the same as the Irish project system[/quote]

Are any international unions other than the RFU using the residency rule in preference of selecting players who are qualified to play for them and have been through their national youth system?

I can't think of any.

HammerofThunor wrote:Didn't Bearman get injured just before qualifying and never get back to form?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/my_club/ng_dragons/9093416.stm

Tito said he didn't want to play for Wales.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/my_club/cardiff_blues/8453588.stm

So, it appears that Wales are trying this policy but are being scuppered by injury or players not wanting to playing for Wales. Bad luck, I say.

SafeAsMilk wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Didn't Bearman get injured just before qualifying and never get back to form?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/my_club/ng_dragons/9093416.stm

Tito said he didn't want to play for Wales.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/my_club/cardiff_blues/8453588.stm

So, it appears that Wales are trying this policy but are being scuppered by injury or players not wanting to playing for Wales. Bad luck, I say.

That is speculation not fact...!

maestegmafia wrote:That is speculation not fact...!

Not unlike claims about the motives behind MP interventions in extradition issues, eh?

This is obviously a very difficult discussion. Residency as applies to National Honours is a valid topic, and on the tip of everyone's tongues. The IRB rules I do find a bit strange and do need revision. However, I want to stay away from any vaguely anti-immigrant discussion, as I think it not appropriate for a Rugby board.

I certainly agree with the majority that the current rules are in need of change. Three years and/or a long lost grandparent is too lax. I prefer a longer residency period and eliminating the grandparent (the rules not eliminating grandparents altogether).

Perhaps I don't understand citizenship requirements enough. I still somehow feel people should represent the country for which they are citizens. So connecting National Honours with citizenship should work. Of course between England, Scotland, Wales and NI it does become a bit middled, but it can be worked.

I do have a few comments about the England selection, which is obviously the lightening rod for all this.

England are adhering to the current rules as established by the IRB and agreed by all member unions. So they are doing nothing against policy. I am not sure I agree with their selections, but they are compliant with rules.

England are not trolling around through the children of the Rugby nations looking to seed their squad in years to come. Frankly, I don't think they are casting about for other country's castoffs, either.

There are many reason why kids will come to the UK from other countries. Preventing someone who came over as a kid or teenager for aspiring for National Honours, is to me, wrong.

On the other hand, people who come over as an adult, specifically looking to claim residency and compete for England, is a bit of a problem for me.

[quote="SafeAsMilk"]

maestegmafia wrote:

SafeAsMilk wrote:That is speculation not fact...!

Not unlike claims about the motives behind MP interventions in extradition issues, eh?

The motives are speculation and the truth is likely never to be heard.

That a Leicester MP intervened in a Samoan player being deported for living illegally in the UK, after pressure campaigns by fans of Leicester RFC on Facebook etc resulting in the said Samoan player becoming a contracted Leicester RFC and England rugby player is fact not speculation.

I am sure that this case will encourage the many other young male minority ethnics seeking asylum or work permits in Leicester, one of the UKs largest immigrant Cities, to take up rugby union with verve.

It does seem a very quick way to get help with your residency papers.

doctor_grey wrote:This is obviously a very difficult discussion. Residency as applies to National Honours is a valid topic, and on the tip of everyone's tongues. The IRB rules I do find a bit strange and do need revision. However, I want to stay away from any vaguely anti-immigrant discussion, as I think it not appropriate for a Rugby board.

I certainly agree with the majority that the current rules are in need of change. Three years and/or a long lost grandparent is too lax. I prefer a longer residency period and eliminating the grandparent (the rules not eliminating grandparents altogether).

Perhaps I don't understand citizenship requirements enough. I still somehow feel people should represent the country for which they are citizens. So connecting National Honours with citizenship should work. Of course between England, Scotland, Wales and NI it does become a bit middled, but it can be worked.

I do have a few comments about the England selection, which is obviously the lightening rod for all this.

England are adhering to the current rules as established by the IRB and agreed by all member unions. So they are doing nothing against policy. I am not sure I agree with their selections, but they are compliant with rules.

England are not trolling around through the children of the Rugby nations looking to seed their squad in years to come. Frankly, I don't think they are casting about for other country's castoffs, either.

There are many reason why kids will come to the UK from other countries. Preventing someone who came over as a kid or teenager for aspiring for National Honours, is to me, wrong.

On the other hand, people who come over as an adult, specifically looking to claim residency and compete for England, is a bit of a problem for me.

Agreed.

geoff998rugby wrote:I have no problem with Manu playing for England - Hape, Flutey I do

If the 6+2 reported about is true then Wales run a Project system just like Ireland's 5+1, soon to be 4+1.

I agree with HoT re 5 years but I do see a problem tying it to citizenship. The UK may be 5 years, Ireland is 4. The problem being different countries have different periods before you become eligable.

This site says it is at least 5 years in Ireland, and as in the UK, that is before application, so reality would probably see citizenship being achieved after 6 years. It's certainly true that there are a variety of qualification periods around the world, but the majority of rugby nations seem to require 5 years (there is a summary of some here).

One of the reasons why I like linking it with citizenship is that that is what each country requires to consider you one of their own. As a citizen of a country you are entitled to the privledges that are extended to all, and that should include the ability to represent that country.

[quote="maestegmafia"]

SafeAsMilk wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

SafeAsMilk wrote:That is speculation not fact...!

Not unlike claims about the motives behind MP interventions in extradition issues, eh?

The motives are speculation and the truth is likely never to be heard.

That a Leicester MP intervened in a Samoan player being deported for living illegally in the UK, after pressure campaigns by fans of Leicester RFC on Facebook etc resulting in the said Samoan player becoming a contracted Leicester RFC and England rugby player is fact not speculation.

I am sure that this case will encourage the many other young male minority ethnics seeking asylum or work permits in Leicester, one of the UKs largest immigrant Cities, to take up rugby union with verve.

It does seem a very quick way to get help with your residency papers.

The MP didn't intervene in him being deported, he added his backing to the appeal process that was already underway.

Other young males seeking permission to stay would also more than likely find it granted if they could present, as the UK Border Agency put it, similar "factors such as his age, length of residence and family ties in the UK". Undoubtedly the high profile nature of the case resulted in a more speedy resolution to the issue however.

Johnpartle thanks for that. If true it has changed in the last 5 years as previously it was 4 years

maestegmafia wrote:I am sure that this case will encourage the many other young male minority ethnics seeking asylum or work permits in Leicester, one of the UKs largest immigrant Cities, to take up rugby union with verve.

It does seem a very quick way to get help with your residency papers.

Yes, start playing rugby and 6 years later if you turn out to be one of the best players in your age group you might get more help than a non-rugby player would.
Of course Manu could have saved himself a lot of the hassle he went through by going back to Samoa and getting a game for their side instead so he would have qualified for a work permit the easier way. His desire to play for England saw him take the harder, less predictable path to staying here.

snoopster wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:I am sure that this case will encourage the many other young male minority ethnics seeking asylum or work permits in Leicester, one of the UKs largest immigrant Cities, to take up rugby union with verve.

It does seem a very quick way to get help with your residency papers.

Yes, start playing rugby and 6 years later if you turn out to be one of the best players in your age group you might get more help than a non-rugby player would.
Of course Manu could have saved himself a lot of the hassle he went through by going back to Samoa and getting a game for their side instead so he would have qualified for a work permit the easier way. His desire to play for England saw him take the harder, less predictable path to staying here.

Samoa where he would have been a first choice super star in a few years instead of one of five or six players fighting for selection in a country that has the largest pool of qualified players in the world.

maestegmafia wrote:Samoa where he would have been a first choice super star in a few years instead of one of five or six players fighting for selection in a country that has the largest pool of qualified players in the world.

So, you agree he's taken the harder route and should be applauded for it? Very gracious of you

maestegmafia wrote:Samoa where he would have been a first choice super star in a few years instead of one of five or six players fighting for selection in a country that has the largest pool of qualified players in the world.

Yes - Samoa where he would have got the cap he needed to earn a work permit so he could take up his contract at Tigers. He took the harder route though out of his desire to play for England as well as Tigers and risked his future career on it.

It appears to me that Manu Tuiilagi, who came over as an early teen, appears to consider himself the same as any English kid. Look, most of the kids he has played with since he arrived and, most likely, hung about with are English. Why would he not connect himself with England?

And why would a kid - remember he's still a kid - feel he has to make decisions about residency? He probably was just being raised in Leicester similarly to any other kid, albeit from a well-known family. And, since he came over as a kid, I am pretty sure he didn't realise he was in UK on an incorrect visa.

Seems lie a dead isse to me.

I think Manu Tuilagi is a non-issue in terms of qualification to play for England, he went to secondary school in England, played junior rugby in England, then moved on to more senior rugby in England & finally to professional rugby in England.
The common theme being English schools & rugby.

The visa issue is a red herring, anyone who can demonstrate family ties to the UK will get to stay.

maestegmafia wrote:

SafeAsMilk wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Didn't Bearman get injured just before qualifying and never get back to form?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/my_club/ng_dragons/9093416.stm

Tito said he didn't want to play for Wales.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/my_club/cardiff_blues/8453588.stm

So, it appears that Wales are trying this policy but are being scuppered by injury or players not wanting to playing for Wales. Bad luck, I say.

That is speculation not fact...!

Bearman has been long term injured and Tito said he doesn't want to play for Wales. Those are facts. The speculation was yours; that the WRU decided to pursue none residency qualified players. The only examples you gave were ruled out for other reasons.

HammerofThunor wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

SafeAsMilk wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Didn't Bearman get injured just before qualifying and never get back to form?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/my_club/ng_dragons/9093416.stm

Tito said he didn't want to play for Wales.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/my_club/cardiff_blues/8453588.stm

So, it appears that Wales are trying this policy but are being scuppered by injury or players not wanting to playing for Wales. Bad luck, I say.

That is speculation not fact...!

Bearman has been long term injured and Tito said he doesn't want to play for Wales. Those are facts. The speculation was yours; that the WRU decided to pursue none residency qualified players. The only examples you gave were ruled out for other reasons.

Give me one example of a player in any team other than in the England rugby team who didn't play for that nations youth teams, qualifies only through the IRBs residency laws?

I still can't find one.

SafeAsMilk wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Samoa where he would have been a first choice super star in a few years instead of one of five or six players fighting for selection in a country that has the largest pool of qualified players in the world.

So, you agree he's taken the harder route and should be applauded for it? Very gracious of you

To be honest if he wasn't likely to play rugby for England I don't think he would have been treated any differently to any other illegal immigrant deportee.

HammerofThunor wrote:Bearman has been long term injured and Tito said he doesn't want to play for Wales. Those are facts. The speculation was yours; that the WRU decided to pursue none residency qualified players. The only examples you gave were ruled out for other reasons.

Tito actually said he's now in his early 30's and thought Wales had better options than him, but he'd accept a call up if we needed him. He didn't refuse to play for Wales, he just doesn't think he's good enough at this point in his career. It's not as if Wales are short on lock options, so I agree with his thinking. He's a very influencial player for Cardiff, but by the time he would of been settled and established in the Wales team he'd be to old to make use of to be honest.

maestegmafia wrote:To be honest if he wasn't likely to play rugby for England I don't think he would have been treated any differently to any other illegal immigrant deportee.

What you mean free house, free benefits, free medical care and endless trips to court, then after 10 years, being told he can stay indefinetily because to send him home would breach his "human rights"?
Yup I guess he would be treated like all the others!

AlynDavies wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Bearman has been long term injured and Tito said he doesn't want to play for Wales. Those are facts. The speculation was yours; that the WRU decided to pursue none residency qualified players. The only examples you gave were ruled out for other reasons.

Tito actually said he's now in his early 30's and thought Wales had better options than him, but he'd accept a call up if we needed him. He didn't refuse to play for Wales, he just doesn't think he's good enough at this point in his career. It's not as if Wales are short on lock options, so I agree with his thinking. He's a very influencial player for Cardiff, but by the time he would of been settled and established in the Wales team he'd be to old to make use of to be honest.

Or he was being polite. Either way he said he wouldn't play for Wales unless they were in "dire, dire straights" and then he would think about it. I'm just refuting the claim that the WRU turned away from Tito and Bearman deliberately to focus on 'real' Welshmen.

Maesteg, perhaps you're confusing me for some who has a problem with residency qualification? Why on Earth would I care if no-one else has any at this particular point in time? People choose to move to England and over time they gain qualification. If they're deserving of a place one will be given.
Are there any residency-qualified players in Wales who are anywhere near an international cap? What does that mean? That the WRU strategy of widening the player pool with NWQ players isn't working. Why carry on with it?

NB I do have a problem with the grand-parent ruling but that's another thread.

HammerofThunor wrote:Or he was being polite. Either way he said he wouldn't play for Wales unless they were in "dire, dire straights" and then he would think about it. I'm just refuting the claim that the WRU turned away from Tito and Bearman deliberately to focus on 'real' Welshmen.

Maesteg, perhaps you're confusing me for some who has a problem with residency qualification? Why on Earth would I care if no-one else has any at this particular point in time? People choose to move to England and over time they gain qualification. If they're deserving of a place one will be given.
Are there any residency-qualified players in Wales who are anywhere near an international cap? What does that mean? That the WRU strategy of widening the player pool with NWQ players isn't working. Why carry on with it?

NB I do have a problem with the grand-parent ruling but that's another thread.

Well I'm not sure, he was happy enough to represent the Barbarians against Wales, so I'd assume he'd be fairly happy with the financial bonuses being a Wales international brings.
Bearman and Tito haven't actually been asked by Wales though, it was only press speculation from the Western mail who pointed out that they could be considered.
Deacon Manu actually went public and said he would put his name for consideration but Gatland told him to play for Fiji as it was unlikely he would dislodge Adam Jones and Mitchell, so he did go for Fiji.
Wales don't have a stratagy for NWQ players, it was the regions who wanted the excuse to call non capped players as residential ones to go around the WRU rules for NWQ's. Regions can sign any non capped NWQ players and say they can qualify for Wales on residency grounds but in nearly all cased I can think of apart from Ben Morgan they have been encouraged to play for their own countries.
The only other player I can think of who may have decided to try and play for Wales is Hanno Dirksen who is South African born but moved to the USA at a young age and took up rugby there, then moved to Cornwall in England where he was spotted by Scott Johnson and offered an Ospreys academy place. He's only 19 and a utility back though he's only played a couple of games for the Ospreys on the left wing in LV Games. I think he's put his name forward for Wales selection.

HammerofThunor wrote:

AlynDavies wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Bearman has been long term injured and Tito said he doesn't want to play for Wales. Those are facts. The speculation was yours; that the WRU decided to pursue none residency qualified players. The only examples you gave were ruled out for other reasons.

Tito actually said he's now in his early 30's and thought Wales had better options than him, but he'd accept a call up if we needed him. He didn't refuse to play for Wales, he just doesn't think he's good enough at this point in his career. It's not as if Wales are short on lock options, so I agree with his thinking. He's a very influencial player for Cardiff, but by the time he would of been settled and established in the Wales team he'd be to old to make use of to be honest.

Or he was being polite. Either way he said he wouldn't play for Wales unless they were in "dire, dire straights" and then he would think about it. I'm just refuting the claim that the WRU turned away from Tito and Bearman deliberately to focus on 'real' Welshmen.

Maesteg, perhaps you're confusing me for some who has a problem with residency qualification? Why on Earth would I care if no-one else has any at this particular point in time? People choose to move to England and over time they gain qualification. If they're deserving of a place one will be given.
Are there any residency-qualified players in Wales who are anywhere near an international cap? What does that mean? That the WRU strategy of widening the player pool with NWQ players isn't working. Why carry on with it?

NB I do have a problem with the grand-parent ruling but that's another thread.

Wales have never invited Bearman or Tito to play for Wales. That is my point, they could have but didn't.

And that is the difference between England and the rest of the home nations, France, kiwi, oz and SA.

England are willing to exclude blooding potential youth players if there is a foreign player who qualifies on the edge of a residency period or mysteriously appears to suddenly find a granny somewhere who he never knew was English.

It is sad to see England select in this way, the RWC this year would be a great place for the young English players of the next generation to gain experience but the RFU see it differently.

I don't get the first bit about Tito. He played for the Barbarians therefore he would be happy to play for Wales?

The WRU statement outlining the recent agreement specifically states that the regions may have 6 NWQ players AND 2 NWQ who are 'working on qualification'. That's not a regional spin on it. Manu is shocking. That's why he didn't play for Wales. Do you think he would have been turned down if he was any good? Have any decent players been encouraged to play for their 'home' country?

I don't think the WRU have master plan to bring in residency players but the system they have is not really any different to the Irish one. The RFU however doesn't differentiate between the NEQ players who can or cannot qualify for England. But once they are qualified they're not treated any different to any other EQ player. That's right in my opinion.

Maesteg, Tito ruled himself out of contention unless Wales were in 'dire, dire' straights. Bearmen got injured before having a chance of a call. No other players are anywhere near good enough to play for Wales. That doesn't mean the WRU are refusing to pick residency-qualified players. Like you claimed.

HammerofThunor wrote:I don't get the first bit about Tito. He played for the Barbarians therefore he would be happy to play for Wales?

The WRU statement outlining the recent agreement specifically states that the regions may have 6 NWQ players AND 2 NWQ who are 'working on qualification'. That's not a regional spin on it. Manu is shocking. That's why he didn't play for Wales. Do you think he would have been turned down if he was any good? Have any decent players been encouraged to play for their 'home' country?

I don't think the WRU have master plan to bring in residency players but the system they have is not really any different to the Irish one. The RFU however doesn't differentiate between the NEQ players who can or cannot qualify for England. But once they are qualified they're not treated any different to any other EQ player. That's right in my opinion.

Maesteg, Tito ruled himself out of contention unless Wales were in 'dire, dire' straights. Bearmen got injured before having a chance of a call. No other players are anywhere near good enough to play for Wales. That doesn't mean the WRU are refusing to pick residency-qualified players. Like you claimed.

Well no, I used Ben Morgan as a case in point to support your argument on the NWQ situation. Though in Ben's case no one wanted him in England. The Residency thing has only come up in his case because of the progress he's made since he's come to Wales, it's not as if theyve poached him from the first team of a Guiness Premiership team for example. I think he was at Dursley RFC, then at 18 moved to Ebbw Vale, before joining Llanelli then onto the Scarlets. It was more of a case of a kid being rejected at all the major English clubs before a Welsh one near the English border gave him a chance.

The point I was making with Tito is he was happy enough to play representative rugby for the Barbarians so if Wales did indeed come calling he'd probably give it a shot.

Give me one example of a player in any team other than in the England rugby team who didn't play for that nations youth teams, qualifies only through the IRBs residency laws?

I STILL can't find one.

Didn't he go to uni in Cardiff?

There is a massive difference between Barbarians and proper international rugby. The fact that he's played for barbarians but has said he'll only play for Wales if desperate suggests he wouldn't play for Wales rather than he would.

My point is that there are no players now or recently who have qualified for Wales AND been good enough for Wales. I'm all for residency qualification. I'd be ecstatic for Morgan to play for Wales and do well. But there is no evidence anywhere to suggest the WRU (or Welsh coach) wouldn't pick residency-qualified players. That's what Maesteg claimed.

Maesteg, I don't care. Maybe there isn't one. Second time I've answered you. Care to return the favour and point out a residency-qualified player for Wales that wasn't picked AND was good enough for the Welsh team? Adam Black, etc don't count.

maestegmafia wrote:Give me one example of a player in any team other than in the England rugby team who didn't play for that nations youth teams, qualifies only through the IRBs residency laws?

I STILL can't find one.

Me neither Hanno Dirksen is the closest I can come to it, He played for the USA through age group rugby and played for the USA full team against Munster, before moving to England for University, then to the Ospreys. there is no confirmation either way if he's interested in Wales though I think he's just called one while the Ospreys can get away with it.

maestegmafia wrote:Give me one example of a player in any team other than in the England rugby team who didn't play for that nations youth teams, qualifies only through the IRBs residency laws?

I STILL can't find one.

Just wondering how hard you're looking?

Clue 1 - He's a British Lion

Clue 2 - He scored a try in this year's HC final

Need I go on?
Well, just in case:

Clue 3 - He has over 60 caps for Scotland

Clue 4 - He hails from Wagga Wagga

maestegmafia wrote:Give me one example of a player in any team other than in the England rugby team who didn't play for that nations youth teams, qualifies only through the IRBs residency laws?

I STILL can't find one.

Sitiveni Sivivatu for NZ
Tendai 'Beast' Mtawarira for SA
Quintin Geldenhuys for Italy
Brett Wilkinson for Ireland

Just a few years ago there was Brent Cockbain, Chris Horsman & Sonny Parker playing for Wales. In the coming years would anyone be surprised to see Ben Morgan capped for Wales, Richardt Strauss for Ireland, Tim Visser for Scotland?

With Matt Stevens having an English father, Hartley an English mother, Flutey an English grandfather, Tuilagi having come through the youth system, and Waldrom (English grandmother) & Botha both very unlikely to make the final cut, the only player who will make England's WC squad that fits your above criteria is Hape.

johnpartle wrote:


Sitiveni Sivivatu for NZ
Tendai 'Beast' Mtawarira for SA
Quintin Geldenhuys for Italy
Brett Wilkinson for Ireland

Just a few years ago there was Brent Cockbain, Chris Horsman & Sonny Parker playing for Wales. In the coming years would anyone be surprised to see Ben Morgan capped for Wales, Richardt Strauss for Ireland, Tim Visser for Scotland?

With Matt Stevens having an English father, Hartley an English mother, Flutey an English grandfather, Tuilagi having come through the youth system, and Waldrom (English grandmother) & Botha both very unlikely to make the final cut, the only player who will make England's WC squad that fits your above criteria is Hape.

Don't forget Colin Charvis and Shane Howarth. quickly people forget....

Charvis played age grade rugby for Wales he even started his professional career with London Welsh then Swansea Howarth was just a embarrassment.

Not quite sure what starting his "professional career" in England has got to do with anything ? Were London Welsh really paying players in 1995 ? I'm sure his professional career actually started at Swansea, just after the IRB declared the game "open". He still wasn't Welsh qualified until just before the "Grannygate" hearings.

Played for Wales under 21 in 1994 Grannygate was in 2000 he had his first full cap in 1996 against Australia

Even though he was over 21 ? He was born in 1972 and didn't qualify for Wales through residency when he won his first cap.