Problem position for your country?

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What would your say has been your country's problem position over the last decade or so?

For Scotland is has got to be outside centre. Lets have a look at who we have had to put up with recently:

Marcus Di Rollo
Jim Mclaren
Andy Craig
Simon Webster (!)
Rob Dewey
Andy Henderson
Brendan Laney
To name a few!

they have all been totally rubbish! Also honourable mention to the stand off jersey, although the lack of talent isn't quite as extreme.

Luckily a few years ago Max Evans and Cairnsy broke on to the scene and brought some quality back to the 13 shirt. With Joe Ansbro and even Shlong vying for the 13 shirt now it has actually become a position of strength!

So what would you say has been your country's position of extreme weakness over the last ten years or so?

When was the last time any Welshman kicked a rugby ball with any degree of accuracy or vision?

Personally for the RWC I'd go with:

Byrne
North
Roberts
Hook
Williams
Jones
Rees

Post RWC:

Roberts
Halfpenny
Williams
JD2
North
Hook
Webb/Williams/Knoyle (take your pick!)

Scott Williams is one for the future - keep your eye on him. Also got Brew, Stodds, Smith, Beck, Priestland & Tovey pushing for places ... and some guy called Dan Bighead apparently

munkian wrote:There is no way in hell that Gatland will put Roberts at 15, when was the last time he kicked the ball in a match with any degree of accuracy or vison ?

Roberts doesn't kick because Gatland has brainwashed him into bulldozer duty. Have you seen the size of the guy? I'm pretty sure he'd be capable of clearing his lines and even more sure he'd be good under the high ball. I'd love to see him attack from deep though - imagine Roberts hitting the line and running angles. Much more effective. You're right though - Gatland won't play him at 15 because Gatland has his blinkers on and want's a wrecking ball in midfield, albeit one that get's smothered by defenders every time he gets the ball.

For the WC, I'd go with the following:

9.Phillips 10.Hook 11.Williams 12.JD2 13.Roberts 14.North 15.Byrne

20.Peel 21.Jones 22.Halfpenny

We've debated our respective views on Phillips to death, but I'm surprised TBS that you don't want Hook at 10 for the WC.

It's because I think a Jones/Hook/Roberts midfield is fairly settled and balanced. If Gatland recinds the Garryowen order and asks Stevie to play from the gainline you'll see a different Wales. He'll bring his runners in from there and with Hook, Roberts, Byrne, Williams, North or Halfpanny to choose from, you can bet your bottom dollar they'll do some damage if they're used properly. If Jones is instructed to kick he'll play most of the game some metres behind the gainline and we'll be smashed. After the RWC I think a Hook/JD2/Williams (or other) trio in midfield will have time to gel ready for the next RWC.

I wouldn't put Mike Phillips on a rugby pitch. He is and always has been a liability - and that's just his mentality (I felt this 10 years ago when he 1st played for the Scarlets and I haven't changed my opinion on that one yet). Also totally out of form at the moment and slows the ball down unecessarily.

funnyExiledScot wrote:When was the last time any Welshman kicked a rugby ball with any degree of accuracy or vision?

Neil Jenkins?

whocares wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:When was the last time any Welshman kicked a rugby ball with any degree of accuracy or vision?

Neil Jenkins?

He was a poor kicker out of hand too. I'd say it's probably Henson pre08 and before that Jonathan Davies. Unless you mean place kicking when of course Stevie Jones does a cracking job for us.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

whocares wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:When was the last time any Welshman kicked a rugby ball with any degree of accuracy or vision?

Neil Jenkins?

He was a poor kicker out of hand too. I'd say it's probably Henson pre08 and before that Jonathan Davies. Unless you mean place kicking when of course Stevie Jones does a cracking job for us.

everyone has their good days, hook put some beauties in during the six nations, as did jones, but they both had a number of clangers too..

main problem kicking in the welsh team is from mike phillips not the flyhalfs

The last time I saw a Welsh fylhalf kick well out of hand was "Hook" against Ireland he totally out kicked ROG and that takes some doing. Even if Hook mis-kicks he kicks much further than S Jones but S Jones is one of the best goal kickers, take your pick with S Jones, Wales can only beat Italy with any confidence!

glamorganalun wrote:The last time I saw a Welsh fylhalf kick well out of hand was "Hook" against Ireland he totally out kicked ROG and that takes some doing. Even if Hook mis-kicks he kicks much further than S Jones but S Jones is one of the best goal kickers, take your pick with S Jones, Wales can only beat Italy with any confidence!

Dunno about that, Alun - this is the guy who ousted Hook from the 10 beth during the 08 6N then kept him out. Jones isn't the problem - Gatland is. Phillips doesn't help either. Neither does a pack that consistently turns over ball or gets it back at a snails pace.

Was about to say Hook against Ireland myself. A sight for sore eyes seeing us successfully maintain pressure through the boot and keep the opposition pinned down a decent amount for a change. That is if players like SOB hadn't been marching through our excuses for tackles.

One worth a mention is Byrne in 08. Two things that defined Byrne were his scything angle-breaks and his giant boot, the latter sometimes turning a defensive position on it's head. Makes today's Byrne all the more painful to watch.

For England

As mentioned...the centres are the main problem.

But i also agree that we are possibly struggling to get the right balance or personnel in the back row.

Totally:

We both agree Gatland is the probllem with Wales performances, we have gone downhill since 2008 and it is not because we don't have the players. I find it very frustrating as we have the best pack for years but Gatland picks hookers that can't throw straight, kick the leather off the ball (badly) and we don't chase.

Regarding Hook, although he does not play flyhalf very often he has won more MOM awards for Wales at Flyhalf than Jones who has played 100 times! I can recall Australia (2007?) when Jones was dire and went off after 23 mins for Hook to take over and come back to draw the match (a bit like Biggar), Hook was MOM 2007 6N against England, 2008 against the same oppornents at Twickers, Scotland 2011 (not sure it was my choice) and Ireland 2011. I can't think of a game Jones has been MOM as we usually lose when he runs the show. Jones was known as captain rudey poo by his Wales team mates that says a lot for me. When was the last time he scored a try for Wales where he beat a player?

I hope Jones does not get injured as he is a safe penalty taker and good defender but attacking, the standard is higher at international level than ML.

GeordieFalcon wrote:For England

As mentioned...the centres are the main problem.

But i also agree that we are possibly struggling to get the right balance or personnel in the back row.

I agree that finding the right balance hasn't yet been achieved, but in terms of personnel England are rich with talent in the back row. That the likes of Chris Robshaw, Steffon Armitage, Tom Johnson, Luke Narraway and Jordan Crane are barely getting a look-in for the WC squad is pretty telling in that regard.

Wales have a major probelm in the positon of head coach

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Wales have a major probelm in the positon of head coach

If only Gareth Jenkins had stayed in charge. I mean really, what has Warren Gatland ever achieved as a coach I ask you?

funnyExiledScot wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Wales have a major probelm in the positon of head coach

If only Gareth Jenkins had stayed in charge. I mean really, what has Warren Gatland ever achieved as a coach I ask you?

you don't seem to have considered the possibility that Scarlet fans were quite happy to offload Gareth Jenkins to the Wales team before your little wind-up.

I hadn't thought of it that way! Perhaps Cardiff fans are on this anti-Gatland bandwagon because they reckon they can offload Dai Young on Wales!

Rob Kearney anywhere near an Irish jersey is my only problem.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I hadn't thought of it that way! Perhaps Cardiff fans are on this anti-Gatland bandwagon because they reckon they can offload Dai Young on Wales!

you seem to forget it's the Wasps who want Dai Young.

Yes, and Hanks wants the Blues job. Nice little merry-go-round of mediocrity going on there.

Now you mention Wasps, I seem to remember they had this rather good coaching team once.

exiledScot - to be honest I was one of those who was glad to see Gatland get he job, but personally I have had enough of his 'honesty' when it comes to players being in wrong, but lack of honesty about form players being selceted, playing in Wales helping your selection hopes etc.

Also in Wales we have serious issues with trust in the players below the first team to step up in all positions. If we lose more than two first teamers it quickly turns to doom and gloom

"When was the last time he scored a try for Wales where he beat a player?"

Argentina (I think) with his tap penalty. A faster carthorse would have made it more comfortably though.

With regards to Tovey, I'm amazed to see somebody say that he hasn't got it, but Priestland has. Those in the know would realise his only problem is his defence, but then Priestland isn't all that in that department either. With that, I'm sure Shaun Edwards could actually earn his crust and work with him on it. People like Cement Head Gatland point to his goalkicking stats, but then again those in the know realise he had an awful build up to last season and tried to change his kicking style mid season.

It speaks volumes that Matthew Jones was in pretty decent form for us around Jan/Feb time and Tovey was still kept at ten despite his kicking woes (at the time). I'd question whether those who say Tovey hasn't got it actually watch the Dragons play much, or just form lazy opinions.

Our Coach.

I'd question whether those who say Tovey hasn't got it actually watch the Dragons play much, or just form lazy opinions.

Risca,

Can can be levelled at a lot of our players who others slate having not watched them regulalry, Brew another prime example.

Some have even questioned Lydiates work rate !!!!!!!!!!!!

RiscaRev - so apart from his kicking and his defence, Tovey is good enough to play for Wales? Sounds like the next Arwel Thomas to me.

I'm not anti-Dragons at all, far far from it. Charteris, Lydiate (in particular) and Brew are all excellent players.

I just don't think Tovey has done enough (yet) to play for Wales.

Risca:

I know his last try was a tap and go with nobody in front of him that is why I said beat a man, now you are really struggling.

Sorry but every time I have seen Tovey this year he has been average at best and his placing kicking has been awful.

12 is proving Ireland problem in the short term - D'Arcy will not start the early pre World Cup matches due to injury. The folly of not giving someone else a shot - beit Wallace, McFadden or another during the 6N's is coming back to haunt us.

Gibson wrote:Our Coach.

Really Gibson? Cén fáth?

GlamorganAlun - To be fait to be a good fly half you don't need to be scoring tries left right and centre, beating fifteen men in the process. You need to be able to put others into space and they can score the tries. Wales have a number of fly halves who can score tries, but unfortunately don't see able to create them for others.

geoff998rugby wrote:
12 is proving Ireland problem in the short term - D'Arcy will not start the early pre World Cup matches due to injury. The folly of not giving someone else a shot - beit
Wallace, McFadden or another during the 6N's is coming back to haunt us.

I don't know Geoff. I think due to the narrowmindedness of our selectors it often gives the impression that we have fewer players in certain positions than we do. No one else other than D'arcy may have got a look in but the reality is Downey and Wallace have played pretty well at 12 this season and Spence, McFadden and Marshall have all put in good displays there too.

Marshall and Hanaran(?) both looked good for the u-20's there too.

I think we're well covered across the backline but the biggest problem is that no one else is going to get a run at 13 until BOD retires.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:GlamorganAlun - To be fait to be a good fly half you don't need to be scoring tries left right and centre, beating fifteen men in the process. You need to be able to put others into space and they can score the tries. Wales have a number of fly halves who can score tries, but unfortunately don't see able to create them for others.

Scarlet - that was true 5-10 years ago but now I think that now we expect a little bit more. Just look at the try scoring potential in Lambie, Cooper, Carter, Jantjies and (yes, I'll say it) even Cipriani the Exfoliated Swordsman.

To be a good fly half, I'll agree that all you need to be able to do is put others in space (look at Steyn, Grant, James, Hilgendorf) but to be a great one, you need speed and a step too.

I'll point you to my part of the post about Tovey's goal kicking. It isn't an issue now and I'd expect him to be back up to his usual standards next season. I'm pretty sure Tovey went through a long run of not missing a shot at goal around a season or two ago, so again I'd question whether people are seeing what they want to see.

With regards to his defence FES, well even Scarlets fans say Priestland's isn't the best, so with that he shouldn't be anywhere near the squad either. Also as I said, we are talking about Shaun Edwards who is allegedly an international standard defence coach, so he should be able to work with him.

It's no coincidence that the majority of Dragons tries are created by Tovey. He's also one of the few Welsh players that realise that if you give Aled Brew opportunities, he'll generally take them. Most Welsh international players don't tend to give him the ball (whereas George North or whoever else gets a load of it). Thankfully us Dragons fans realise what a gem we have in Tovey and if I'm honest I would be more than happy to have him away from that joke Welsh squad environment..

Not sure it's the job of a defence coach to take international players how to tackle, but rather to create the defensive systems. It really ought to be a given that an international player knows how to tackle, and I doubt whether it can be coached into him at this stage. A player will either instinctively put his body on the line, or he won't (and there's plenty 10's out there like O'Gara, Hodgson and Parks who won't). There's a little bit of technique in tackling, but by the time a player reaches international level, it's really at the stage where it's a strength or a weakness.

I just think that the arguments for ditching Jones and Hook become pretty thin when you assess the alternatives.

Rodders thinking different timescales here.

Long term I agree but for this WC I think we have boxed ourselves into a unnecessary corner. A serious injury to D'Arcy would be a problem for the WC

I am not sure why some of the posters on here can't see Tovey's talent, he always looks class to me not shown by many of the other flyhalfs in the ML. He has had injury problems and his penalty kicking is not great but does that matter if you have Hook and Halfpenny on the pitch. He is the best kicker out of hand in Wales by a mile and he kicks long for touch. I would take him ahead of Preistland who is a good player but his defence is very poor. In fairness to S Jones he seems to be the only back at the Scarlets that can defend e.g., last 10 minutes of the BaaBaas game, two tries and if the guys on the pitch started the game Wales would have conceded 70 points or more.

I agree Disney that halfback is where we don´t have world class talent.

6 and 8 used to be a concern before Read and Kaino came along. Hooker was looking dodgy for a while until Mealamu came back into form and Elliot kept Hore honest. Lock was an issue too and prop was touch and go for a while (and now with Woodcock looking a bit of an injury worry but Crockett´s playing well).

So I guess AB fans complaining about their weak positions is like a guy going out with Heidi Klum wishing he was going out Kelly Brook. Sure you could tinker here and there but just be happy with what you´ve got! Most of your friends´girlfriends are mingers!

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:So I guess AB fans complaining about their weak positions is like a guy going out with Heidi Klum wishing he was going out Kelly Brook. Sure you could tinker here and there but just be happy with what you´ve got! Most of your friends´girlfriends are mingers!

True enough, but every four years she has an affair (often with a Frenchman). You get back together, but it takes a while to get over it

Missionary

SafeAsMilk wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:So I guess AB fans complaining about their weak positions is like a guy going out with Heidi Klum wishing he was going out Kelly Brook. Sure you could tinker here and there but just be happy with what you´ve got! Most of your friends´girlfriends are mingers!

True enough, but every four years she has an affair (often with a Frenchman). You get back together, but it takes a while to get over it

That lingering smell of garlic never quite leaves the bedsheets though despite the countless times you soak them and yourself in alcohol. Even when you buy new ones. Sheets that is. Not women who have never had affairs with a French man.

kiakahaaotearoa

With England it's been a 7-year-itch that's lasted 7 years. I think she's finally stopped round town now.

AB weakness is obvious to me - no adequate back up to Carter. All those available are a big step down.

Geof:
The solution to beat the AB is get Carter, the problem is every body has had a go but he is a lot quicker in body and mind than other flyhalves some countries stick with! There is no substitute for pace in the halfbacks (everytwhere in the back line).

glamorganalun wrote:The last time I saw a Welsh fylhalf kick well out of hand was "Hook" against Ireland he totally out kicked ROG and that takes some doing. Even if Hook mis-kicks he kicks much further than S Jones but S Jones is one of the best goal kickers, take your pick with S Jones, Wales can only beat Italy with any confidence!

Italy? We normally stuff Scotland and scrape past Italy, lol.
I cant recall the last time we beat Italy easily.

Alyn:

Hook was 10 against Scotland this year, the year before it was Jones and we won that in injury time with S Jones almost screwing that up by kicking across the pitch which could have gone anywhere. Hook did mis a tackle to concede a try playing centre although he was injured all season.

glamorganalun wrote:Alyn:

Hook was 10 against Scotland this year, the year before it was Jones and we won that in injury time with S Jones almost screwing that up by kicking across the pitch which could have gone anywhere. Hook did mis a tackle to concede a try playing centre although he was injured all season.

Yup he had a bad shoulder injury and Gareth Cooper also ballsed up the 2 man tackle on John Barclay.
Hook did well against Scotland this year, I think he'd of kept the 10 jersey if not for the injury to Jonathan Davies, so was moved back to centre against Italy. Hook also played 10 against Ireland and we did beat them, so maybe Hook should be there long term.

munkian wrote:There is no way in hell that Gatland will put Roberts at 15, when was the last time he kicked the ball in a match with any degree of accuracy or vison ?

When was the last time he kicked a ball!!! He's no fullback, also too slow. Options are 1/2p, Stoddard? Hook? No, Barry Davies, should have been given some game time - pretty solid and reliable and perhaps Priestland who is the most likely cadidate IMO

Barry Davies is a very good and brave FB (not like Stoddart) but he has had a lot of injury problems this year, but I don't know if he is fit and on form, if he is I would put him miles ahead of Preistland, Tovy and Hook at FB IMO!