England U20 vs New Zealand U20 JWC final

by Cumbrian Sun 26 Jun 2011, 9:23 am

England:

1.Vunipola
2.Haywood
3.Thomas
4.Launchbury
5. Matthews
6. Jones
7. Kvesic
8. Gray

9. Cook
10 Ford

11. Wade
12. Farrell
13. Daly
14. Short
15. Ransom

Bench: (16-22) Rob Buchanan, Will Collier, Sam Twomey, Matt Everard, Dan Robson, Ryan Mills, Marland Yarde.

New Zealand

1 Solomona Sakalia
2 Codie Taylor
3 Ben Tameifuna
4 Steven Luatua
5 Brodie Rettalick
6 Brad Shields
7 Sam Cane
8 Luke Whitelock (C)
9 TJ Perenara
10 Gareth Anscombe
11 Charles Piutau
12 Lima Sopoaga
13 Francis Saili
14 Mitchell Scott
15 Beauden Barrett

16 Sefo Setefano
17 Michael Kainga
18 Dominic Bird
19 Carl Axtens
20 Brad Weber
21 Rhys Llewellyn
22 Waisake Naholo

by HQ matt Sun 26 Jun 2011, 9:40 am

no place for guy armitage or JJ?

by Cumbrian Sun 26 Jun 2011, 9:41 am

From an English point of view I believe the pack is pretty much the best we could have put out. Sam Jones for Matt Everard was the change a lot of people wanted to see. Hopefully he will add more 'go forward' when England have the ball in hand. Kvesic has been the man of the tournament for England in my opinion, I've been really impressed with his play and I hope to see him a lot more in the AP next season.

Again, I think the backline is decent. Bit surprised by a few calls though. Is Jon Joseph injured? It's a shame he doesn't get a place in the final squad. I'd have started Yarde instead of Short. I can see the thinking behind including Short, he adds some bulk to the backline. On the other hand, Yarde isn't exactly small and has seem much more of a threat too.

by Montague Withnail Sun 26 Jun 2011, 10:43 am

Agree Short is the only controversial choice there, most people would have both JJ and Yarde ahead of him. I'm not too worried though, Short does need to improve his passing and catching a bit, but having a big solid guy like him on one wing and a tricky little nipster on the other is a good combo, plus Short was rested last game so should be fresh.

These guys are going to get taught a lesson today about just how good you have to be to beat the All Blacks. I hope they learn it well, I'm not sure how good next year's crop of BB's will be, but with the likes of Ford, Daly, Kvesic, Ransom, Britton, Twomy and Yarde sticking around and some big talent like Cowan-Dickie, Billy Vunipola and Joel Hodgson to come in next year could just be England's best chance.

by maestegmafia Sun 26 Jun 2011, 10:49 am

Vunipola must be about the fiftieth guy called Vunipola to be capped for England, its like the English equivalent of Jones or Williams in the annals of Welsh Rugby history...!

Good luck England, you will need it. This Kiwi team is superb.

by Cumbrian Sun 26 Jun 2011, 11:07 am

Montague Withnail wrote:Agree Short is the only controversial choice there, most people would have both JJ and Yarde ahead of him. I'm not too worried though, Short does need to improve his passing and catching a bit, but having a big solid guy like him on one wing and a tricky little nipster on the other is a good combo, plus Short was rested last game so should be fresh.

These guys are going to get taught a lesson today about just how good you have to be to beat the All Blacks. I hope they learn it well, I'm not sure how good next year's crop of BB's will be, but with the likes of Ford, Daly, Kvesic, Ransom, Britton, Twomy and Yarde sticking around and some big talent like Cowan-Dickie, Billy Vunipola and Joel Hodgson to come in next year could just be England's best chance.

If you follow Juggler's comments, he is suggesting that after next year there could be a couple of barren years on the horizon at age grade. So we'd better enjoy it whilst we can. Our current under 16s/17s aren't looking too great at the moment apparently.

by nottins Sun 26 Jun 2011, 12:01 pm

maestegmafia wrote:Vunipola must be about the fiftieth guy called Vunipola to be capped for England, its like the English equivalent of Jones or Williams in the annals of Welsh Rugby history...!

Are you being sarcastic ? Not one player called Vunipola has an England cap.

by Guest Sun 26 Jun 2011, 12:07 pm

nottins wrote:Are you being sarcastic ? Not one player called Vunipola has an England cap.

I think he's trying to be amusing. Rolling Eyes

maestegmafia wrote:Good luck England, you will need it. This Kiwi team is superb.

They are excellent. However, they're not so good that teams should be losing by 90-odd points to nil.

by nottins Sun 26 Jun 2011, 12:21 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:
I think he's trying to be amusing.

Is he ? It's not working though.

SafeAsMilk wrote:They are excellent. However, they're not so good that teams should be losing by 90-odd points to nil.

Blimey, did someone lose by that many points against them ?

by Cumbrian Sun 26 Jun 2011, 12:30 pm

Lads, just ignore him. It's not worth getting into an argument about it.

by blackcanelion Sun 26 Jun 2011, 1:17 pm

Just hope it's a good game. Both sides look like quality outfits. Not sure how the junior AB's will go. As a Kiwi I hope they win. However, I understand they are still a work in progress. I think if England can dominate the set piece and compete at the breakdown we could be in trouble. The injuries at centre could be a real problem, especially if England get quick ball.

by emack2 Sun 26 Jun 2011, 2:13 pm

Just a point this is NZ under 20 side NOT the Junior All Blacks,that is an all Black second squad.Alternates with NZ Maori,hope it will be good game too
Nz on current form will win by some margin people saying there not that good.
But they can play wide,the kicking game,or drive it up with the forwards they
don`t look that vulnerable in the set piece.have height advantage at lineout.
Weight advantage at scrum.
Whitelock,Cane and co.are a very good backrow,breakdown area no problems
I think.If England can play for 8o minutes within 40 metres of the Baby Blacks line they could win,But?

by johnpartle Sun 26 Jun 2011, 2:41 pm

As others have already expressed, the pack is spot on and I would have preferred JJ in place of Short. I would have gone for Mills in place of Farrell as well. Farrell is a very good player and he's had a couple of nice touches, but I don't think he's been performing to the best of his ability and I don't think his style of IC play best compliments Ford. I think his Saracens season has definitely converted him, he's very much looked like a FH playing IC.

by maestegmafia Sun 26 Jun 2011, 2:49 pm

nottins wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
I think he's trying to be amusing.

Is he ? It's not working though.

SafeAsMilk wrote:They are excellent. However, they're not so good that teams should be losing by 90-odd points to nil.

Blimey, did someone lose by that many points against them ?

hmmm

Wales just beat Ireland at U 20s 38-24

England beat Ireland U 20s 33-25

Mathmatically that means England aren't likely to loose by a 90+ margin but it could be close.

by Montague Withnail Sun 26 Jun 2011, 2:56 pm

Cumbrian wrote:

If you follow Juggler's comments, he is suggesting that after next year there could be a couple of barren years on the horizon at age grade. So we'd better enjoy it whilst we can. Our current under 16s/17s aren't looking too great at the moment apparently.

It's worse than that I'm afraid, this year's U18s performed dismally losing to Scotland and Ireland and only scraping a win against Wales.

Juggler's theory is that kids aged between roughly 10 and 15 were inspired by England's dominance of world rugby between 2001 and 2003. Kids younger than that (according to his theory) were too young to really care about 2003 at the time and instead grew up exposed to the years of mediocity, dross and disappointment that followed, and older kids were already too set in their ways. Hence next year is the last year of real talent with a few little gems still to come the following year.

Personally, I am not all that convinced by the theory. If it is true then the onus is on this generation to win the 2015 world cup. If they can do that and then hang around for another 7 to 10 years then we might just get some continuity with the next "inspired" generation starting to come through after that.

by Montague Withnail Sun 26 Jun 2011, 2:59 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
Mathmatically that means England are likely to loose by a 90+ margin but it could be close.

Just out of interest, are you a betting man?

by maestegmafia Sun 26 Jun 2011, 3:01 pm

Montague Withnail wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:

If you follow Juggler's comments, he is suggesting that after next year there could be a couple of barren years on the horizon at age grade. So we'd better enjoy it whilst we can. Our current under 16s/17s aren't looking too great at the moment apparently.

It's worse than that I'm afraid, this year's U18s performed dismally losing to Scotland and Ireland and only scraping a win against Wales.

Juggler's theory is that kids aged between roughly 10 and 15 were inspired by England's dominance of world rugby between 2001 and 2003. Kids younger than that (according to his theory) were too young to really care about 2003 at the time and instead grew up exposed to the years of mediocity, dross and disappointment that followed, and older kids were already too set in their ways. Hence next year is the last year of real talent with a few little gems still to come the following year.

Personally, I am not all that convinced by the theory. If it is true then the onus is on this generation to win the 2015 world cup. If they can do that and then hang around for another 7 to 10 years then we might just get some continuity with the next "inspired" generation starting to come through after that.

That and the RFU's love of trawling other teams talent that may choose the option to step out for jolly old England... Anyhow thats all besides the point, it a momentous day for Englands Youth today, as I mentioned previously good luck to them, New Zealands U 20s have never lost a match by less than about fifteen points...

by Montague Withnail Sun 26 Jun 2011, 3:21 pm

Yes I see your point. Mako Vunipola was not born in England has only lived here since he was a little boy, and that's the reason why England U20s have enjoyed 4 years of relative success.

It was obvious once you really thought about it.

by Shifty Sun 26 Jun 2011, 3:21 pm

Montague Withnail wrote:Juggler's theory is that kids aged between roughly 10 and 15 were inspired by England's dominance of world rugby between 2001 and 2003. Kids younger than that (according to his theory) were too young to really care about 2003 at the time and instead grew up exposed to the years of mediocity, dross and disappointment that followed, and older kids were already too set in their ways. Hence next year is the last year of real talent with a few little gems still to come the following year.

Personally, I am not all that convinced by the theory. If it is true then the onus is on this generation to win the 2015 world cup. If they can do that and then hang around for another 7 to 10 years then we might just get some continuity with the next "inspired" generation starting to come through after that.

It's a silly theory, with the amount of players England have they will ALWAYS produce a certain amount of talented players. Every year wages go up and now top players can earn around £500k a year, or £9.5k a week! Do you really think that wont inspire players to try and work hard and be professional?
He'll even Rhys Thomas an average Welsh prop is on £180k a year which is about £3.5k a week!
The scouting systems are now brilliant across the UK, when I was younger I played for Porthcawl and we had many talented players but no one even looked at them or encouraged them, if we wanted to go further we had to chase a club and hopefully your father, would know someone, whod know someone, who once met a bloke down the pub, who is a sisters former boyfriend who might be able to get you into a trial for them. These days there are scouts all over the place and the same place where I grew up have just announced FIVE players in the Ospreys u16 squad! Porthcawl always celebrated one player because in over 100 years he was the only one to make it to Wales and the Lions, yet in the last few years Tom Prydie and Ryan Bevington have played for Wales.
The fact is the clubs are far batter and identifing talent and nurturing it now. Even North Wales is starting to get a trickle of players too! George North and Rob McCusker are recent evidence of this who have been capped by Wales recently.

by Cumbrian Sun 26 Jun 2011, 3:28 pm

Montague Withnail wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:

If you follow Juggler's comments, he is suggesting that after next year there could be a couple of barren years on the horizon at age grade. So we'd better enjoy it whilst we can. Our current under 16s/17s aren't looking too great at the moment apparently.

It's worse than that I'm afraid, this year's U18s performed dismally losing to Scotland and Ireland and only scraping a win against Wales.

Juggler's theory is that kids aged between roughly 10 and 15 were inspired by England's dominance of world rugby between 2001 and 2003. Kids younger than that (according to his theory) were too young to really care about 2003 at the time and instead grew up exposed to the years of mediocity, dross and disappointment that followed, and older kids were already too set in their ways. Hence next year is the last year of real talent with a few little gems still to come the following year.

Personally, I am not all that convinced by the theory. If it is true then the onus is on this generation to win the 2015 world cup. If they can do that and then hang around for another 7 to 10 years then we might just get some continuity with the next "inspired" generation starting to come through after that.

I'm not completely convinced about the theory either, it discounts the introduction of the academy system in 2001. To be honest, if the lads in the current U18 and U20 team can fulfill their potential it should be okay. Even in terrible ages grade generations you tend to get one or two that go on to be an international and there are a few gems that slip through the age grade net (e.g. Billy Twelvetrees). If England can continue to do this, things shouldn't be too bad. We just might not enjoy these tournaments as we have in the last 3-4 years.

by maestegmafia Sun 26 Jun 2011, 3:36 pm

Montague Withnail wrote:Yes I see your point. Mako Vunipola was not born in England has only lived here since he was a little boy, and that's the reason why England U20s have enjoyed 4 years of relative success.

It was obvious once you really thought about it.

it is a rather easy target, obviously always followed by another English fans excuse for why another Foreigner is playing in England colours.

by Montague Withnail Sun 26 Jun 2011, 3:38 pm

I agree with you the theory is quite dodgy, still it was an interesting point of discussion and I don't think it was supposed to be anything other than that.

However, speaking to your other points, bear in mind that a high proportion of English rugby players come through public schools. I went to a school that has since produced 3 or 4 England players, but the most talented players in my year went into the city or other high flying careers after university. The two that I am still in touch with have undoubtedly made more money than the average professional rugby player would have done by the same age. The money available in professional rugby is not all that great a draw for a lot of these guys, only a couple of superstars can earn their millions (and then nothing like the fortunes available in football), but the kind of fame and admiration that you get for winning a world cup is a slightly different motivation.

by Cumbrian Sun 26 Jun 2011, 3:39 pm

DON'T FEED THE TROLL!

by Guest Sun 26 Jun 2011, 3:41 pm

Why does maesteg have to try and ruin every thread with these 'foreign legion' comments and make stuff up to antagonise? It's obvious his motives are to have a pop every time. Wish he'd just grow up a bit.

Anyways...

I'm really looking forward to this game. Good luck England and I hope it's a good game! A couple of beers in the garden beforehand... 8)

by Montague Withnail Sun 26 Jun 2011, 3:42 pm

Cumbrian wrote:DON'T FEED THE TROLL!

Sorry, but at least with that last remark we've seen the true cut of his sad racist jib.

by maestegmafia Sun 26 Jun 2011, 3:44 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:Why does maesteg have to try and ruin every thread with these 'foreign legion' comments and make stuff up to antagonise? It's obvious his motives are to have a pop every time. Wish he'd just grow up a bit.

Anyways...

I'm really looking forward to this game. Good luck England and I hope it's a good game! A couple of beers in the garden beforehand... 8)

Why...

Why is easy, England are going to constantly suffer from sideswipes at their national teams when they seem to be so laisez-faire with who is playing for them.

by NewTraditionalHaka Sun 26 Jun 2011, 3:48 pm

...sad, sad, pathetic Welshman ....

I'll no doubt get moderated for that ...for the same reasons this muppet should be ...

by Guest Sun 26 Jun 2011, 3:51 pm

NewTraditionalHaka wrote:...sad, sad, pathetic Welshman ....

Nah, he might be a bit sad and pathetic but it's nowt do to with his nationality. The Welsh are fine on here. maesteg is just a bad apple and hopefully he'll clear off soon now that folk know what he's like.

Just ignore him.

by Guest Sun 26 Jun 2011, 3:53 pm

Enough of the insults guys, place nice or I start sending nasty pm's

by maestegmafia Sun 26 Jun 2011, 3:57 pm

great piece on the build up for the match. hope you enjoy...!

www.IRB.com wrote:It will be the third time in four years that the two sides have met in the title decider of the Under 20 tournament, New Zealand running out emphatic 38-3 winners in 2008 in Wales and again 44-28 in Japan the following year.

JWC RECORD
The Baby Blacks have won all 19 of their matches on the JWC stage and as such are the only side to lift the distinctive trophy.

The last defeat suffered by New Zealand at age grade level was in the semi finals of the IRB Under 21 World Championship 2006 in France. South Africa, with current Springbok Pierre Spies among their try scorers, ran out 40-23 winners.
Since then, New Zealand have won 25 consecutive matches in IRB age grade tournaments - the Under 21 third place play-off in 2006, five matches at the Under 19 World Championship in 2007 and 19 in the Junior World Championships.

England have lost four of their matches in JWC history, twice to New Zealand in the finals of 2008 and 2009, to Australia in the 2010 semi finals and then South Africa in the third place play-off in Argentina.

England's current - and longest - unbeaten run on the Junior World Championship stage is four, although they have won all nine of their matches under coach Rob Hunter in 2011, five of them in claiming the Six Nations Grand Slam.

JWC GRADUATES

Three players to have played in a Junior World Championship have gone on to become All Blacks - all-time top try scorer Zac Guildford (2008/2009), Aaron Cruden (2009 captain) and Sam Whitelock (2008).

England have seen the same number of players progress to the national team in Ben Youngs (2008/2009), Courtney Lawes (2008/2009) and Alex Corbisiero (2008).

POINTS TALLY

New Zealand need only 40 points to reach 1,000 in JWC history. By contrast England only broke through the 600-point marker in the semi final win over France.

The defending champions are the leading point scorers of JWC 2011 with 241, only 21 points shy of their record for single tournament of 262, set last year in Argentina.

England have scored 131 points in their four matches en route to the final, the fourth highest tally behind New Zealand, South Africa (152) and Australia (136).

England have conceded nearly three times as many points as the Baby Blacks with 81.

New Zealand have conceded only 29 points, one more than their best record from the inaugural Junior World Championship in Wales in 2008.

The most points scored in a single match are 92 for New Zealand earlier in this Championship against Wales and 60 for England, against Canada in the pool stages of JWC 2008 in Wales.

The most points conceded in a single match by England is the 44 scored by New Zealand in the 2009 final in Japan, while for New Zealand theirs is the 28 scored by England in that same final.

TRIES SCORED

The Baby Blacks have crossed the try-line 133 times in their 19 matches, the most tries by any team to play in all four tournaments to date.

The 19 matches have yielded only 74 tries for England.

New Zealand have scored the most tries at JWC 2011 with 34, one more than they have managed in each of the previous title winning successes.

The total number of tries scored by England is 16, less than half that of New Zealand. England's best record is 24 from their 2009 campaign in Japan.

TRIES CONCEDED

New Zealand have conceded only 16 tries in 19 matches - one in 2008 (by Ireland), five in 2009 (two by Australia in semi final, three by England in final), six in 2010 (one by Fiji, Samoa, Wales and South Africa in semi final, two by Australia in final) and four so far in 2011 (one by Italy, two by Argentina and one by Australia in semi final).

England, by contrast, have conceded 41 tries in total - 12 in 2008 (including four against New Zealand in the final), 11 in 2009 (including seven against New Zealand in the final), 12 in 2010 and six so far in 2011.

TOP TRY SCORERS
Two of the leading try scorers at JWC 2011 are likely to be involved in the final in New Zealand wing Charles Piutau and England flyer Christian Wade. Both have scored five tries, although Wade is one of only three players to cross for hat-tricks in the tournament.

Fifteen different players have touched down for New Zealand in Italy, while 10 have accounted for England's tries.

The leading try scorer of all-time is New Zealand wing Zac Guildford with 10, two in 2008 and eight the following year. The most tries scored by an English player in their JWC career is six by Christian Wade, one in 2010 and five this year.

Guildford shares the record for the most tries in a single tournament with another Baby Blacks flyer in Julian Savea, who also scored eight in 2010. Christian Wade is currently tied with Carl Fearns for the most tries by an England player in a single JWC, the number 8 scoring five in 2009.

TOP POINT SCORERS
New Zealand's - and the tournament's - top point scorer in Italy is Gareth Anscombe with 68, which breaks down to two tries, 23 conversions and four penalties.

The fly half has ironically scored 22 points in three of his four matches, the exception being the 48-15 win over Argentina when he came off the bench with 12 minutes to go and only kicked a conversion.
England's leading point scorer is George Ford, the youngest player in the tournament, with 44. The third highest tally at JWC 2011 breaks down to one try, six conversions and nine penalties.s

by maestegmafia Sun 26 Jun 2011, 3:58 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:
NewTraditionalHaka wrote:...sad, sad, pathetic Welshman ....
Nah, he might be a bit sad and pathetic but it's nowt do to with his nationality. The Welsh are fine on here. maesteg is just a bad apple and hopefully he'll clear off soon now that folk know what he's like.

Just ignore him.

This is because I disagree with you over Englands selection of so many non English players...!

by Guest Sun 26 Jun 2011, 3:59 pm

Fair enough, Y I Man. It would just be nice to have a thread about England squads without certain posters coming on with constant wind-ups. It gets boring after a while. I'll leave it now.

by Guest Sun 26 Jun 2011, 4:01 pm

Thanks, if there are issues, please use the report button, its better than getting into a slagging match etc

by NewTraditionalHaka Sun 26 Jun 2011, 4:04 pm

Fair enough Y I Man but you and any sane person knows posters like GreyGhost and Maesteg are only here to antagonise. When GG made up a SCW quotation to stir up hate (it's not too strong a word) Hobo promised he would be made to substantiate or appologise. Still waiting for the apology.

These guys are nationalistic poison to boards like this and they infected the original 606 just the same. Boards like The Roar etc have really honest and informed opinion as well as the occasional jibe but it never sinks to the repetitive boredom these guys invest their lives in.

This board is already going the way of the previous one and i suspect a lot of decent posters are tuning out already.

by Guest Sun 26 Jun 2011, 4:19 pm

Unfortunately I don't know the history on 606 because I didn't frequent the rugby boards. But rather than resorting to insults or 'having a go' at other posters can I request that the alert a mod button is used or pm the mods or admin team and we can look into it further.

by Portnoy Sun 26 Jun 2011, 4:36 pm

Anyone know a way of keeping abreast of the 3/4 play-off final?

Can't find it on IRB...

by Portnoy Sun 26 Jun 2011, 4:51 pm

[quote="maestegmafia"][quote="SafeAsMilk"]

NewTraditionalHaka wrote:...sad, sad, pathetic Welshman

This is because I disagree with you over England's selection of so many non English players...!

So do I maesteg, but there's no point picking fights just because you can.

Have some discretion. Chill.

The RFU have chosen to exploit a perfectly legitimate means of puffing up their side. You don't agree with it any more than I do. But it's not RFU's fault - it's the IRB's ruling.

by Cumbrian Sun 26 Jun 2011, 6:07 pm

Here we go then, good luck to the lads. They've earned the right to be there and now they can only do their best.

C'mon!

by Portnoy Sun 26 Jun 2011, 6:09 pm

Here we go then!

Anthems over - let the game begin.

Not that I'm holding out much hope.

by Cumbrian Sun 26 Jun 2011, 6:19 pm

Great Start, Wade has such a turn of pace. Hint of a foot in touch as the local TV is at pains to show us.

7-0 England

by **Notch** Sun 26 Jun 2011, 6:20 pm

Good start by England. Wade had a foot in touch but not picked up.

by Portnoy Sun 26 Jun 2011, 6:20 pm

That's nice.

Not nilled at least...

by johnpartle Sun 26 Jun 2011, 6:22 pm

England looking good so far. We need to press and make hay. Scrum looking good, but lineout has been poor.

by johnpartle Sun 26 Jun 2011, 6:23 pm

I wish that had been JJ rather than Short.

by Portnoy Sun 26 Jun 2011, 6:25 pm

The best thing the ABs have done so far is the haka.

13mins 7-0.

by Cumbrian Sun 26 Jun 2011, 6:25 pm

England are dismantling their scrum at the moment.

by Cumbrian Sun 26 Jun 2011, 6:25 pm

I had to bloody say it, didn't I?

by Guest Sun 26 Jun 2011, 6:26 pm

Notch wrote:Good start by England. Wade had a foot in touch but not picked up.

Agree on both counts. England could be a bit better off too. They've been in a few good positions. Baby Blacks are asleep.

by **Notch** Sun 26 Jun 2011, 6:27 pm

Believe Portnoy!

England bossing it right now. BBs will come back but I don't see there being much in it!

by Portnoy Sun 26 Jun 2011, 6:31 pm

Ford sitting in an armchair. But more importantly he's playing a blinder. Ref unable to detect a squint scrum feed on either side.

Come on ref! sort it!

by Sponsored content