IRELAND: Why O'Leary should not go to the world cup. Pros + Cons

I am firmly of the belief that O'Leary should not go to the world cup this September. I am very willing to admit that he was an excellent player for Ireland in 2009 as the laws at the time benefited defence minded players.

O'Leary's main strength was just that, his strength and his ability to make cover tackles sometimes as far as on the far wing. He became an extra backrow player around the ruck and an extra fullback when the ball was sent wide. This defensive system was very effective considering that ruck ball was much slower in 2009 than it is now.

I see him in a similar light to kearney who also thrived in this area due to his assurdness under the high ball and his long kicking game. theya re both very defence minded players.

O'Leary's main fault was his service was slow. Not necessarily his pass, but how long it took him to execute a pass. He spent quite a long time digging in rucks and then he would take a number of steps before he passed the ball. These steps kept the fringe defence honest but also cut down on the space in midfield greatly. O'driscoll and Darcy often got the ball with a defender in their faces.

His passing is also an issue in terms of the pace of the pass (by far the slowest of all ireland's scrumhalves) and also his accuracy which is nowhere near what it should be. One could visibly see O'Gara having to adjust to the injection of pace as soon as Stringer came on in many games. O'Leary has been known to throw loopy passes, passes behind the reciever and passes that bounce before they reach the reciever, frequently enough for an international scrumhalf.

His decision making also became poor in early 2010 when he returned from injury. There are many instances where O'Leary didn't survey the options correctly or did and then made a bad choice in terms of directing play, be it popping to a forward when he should have gone wide, or trying to break himself when it wasn't on.

O'Leary was good off set piece moves where he would attack the line off a scrum with runners coming in from all sorts of angles and also at the tail of the lineout where blindside wingers and inside centres would look to get pops off him.

Unfortunatly these phase one moves are well documented and thus defences are more aware of them.

O'Leary should not go to the world cup for 5 reasons

1) Quick ball is golden now a days and this is something O'Leary can not provide. He is by far the worst scrumhalf in ireland regarding this aspect of play. In my opinion of course.

2) His defensive qualities are less relevant as due to quicker ball he will have less time to get across to make covering tackles and will make less and less of them.

3) His kicking game while not being bad all the time is not what it needs to be and he relies on it too heavily.

4) He is not in form due to his injuries. He has had very little game time this season and since his return from injury he has not made the 23 in the big games when Murray and Stringer were available.

5) Unlike with Kearney where we are limited by the number of true fullbacks we possess (3) there are many scrumhalves who are playing well this season or who offer something more or something different.
-Reddan has been on form since November
-Stringer offers something other scrumhalves do not in his speed of service
-Murray is in much better form than O'Leary
-Boss is similar to both Murray and O'Leary but again has been in better form.

His one saving grace is his experience, and his versatility to play centre and wing IMO, and possibly his relationship with Kidney.

What do people think?

I think he'll go but I certainly wouldn't take him unless there were a load of injuries at SH. Not only is his service far too slow, his discision making is very poor and his box kicking is appalling.

My 3 scrum halves would be Reddan, Murray and Boss/Stringer.

The funny thing is his one saving grace is actually 3 different things

To me there are too few reasons for him to travel and too many reasons for him not to. He stays IMO.

Another reason is that it may be better for Murray to get several months of consistent ML game time instead of picking bench splinters out of his bum in NZ.

I would have him there, but now as third choice behind Reddan and Boss although I suspect Stringer might get the nod ahead of Boss. If that were the case then TOL would be elevated to second choice.

Main reason for taking him. He is a proven International with bags of experience in big game situations. I think, like Stag says, Murray will benefit from playing league rugby for Munster and that will aid his development more.

I wouldn't put any of our SH's up on a world class pedastal to be honest. They're all average at best. Interestingly, Kidney picked all five SH's for the training camp so that could indicate that he hasn't made up his mind yet but I'd be surprised if anyone other than TOL, Reddan and Stringer go. He's never been a fan of Boss and with so many SH's and only four warm up games for Murray to prove his value, it's difficult to see Murray getting adequate game time to prove himself. That said, if I was picking the three to go, I would really struggle to make a decision. I'm not O'Leary's biggest fan but I recognise his defensive abilities and versatility (say worst happens and Sexton gets injured, having TOL at SH protecting ROG to an extent would be valuable). Similarly, I'm a huge fan of Murray but, realistically, he's never played for Ireland so it would be a huge risk to take him. The warm up games should separate them in terms of form if nothing else and hopefully Deccie will make his decision based on what he sees in those games but, again, I'd be surprised if anyone other than TOL, Reddan and Stringer went.

Also in the build up to his try against France, O'Leary made a superb break from the lineout that Reddan, Murray or Stringer don't offer.

Still not enough reason to have him IMO but I won't lose sleep if he travels.

Hi,

One of my 1st postings on this site.

I don't think he should go, along with the unforced errors and poor discipline he was the main reason for our poor 6N. His poor service and decision making had many fans pulling their hair out, he was (and prob still is now) not 100% match fit and just doesn't have the skills needed for the job. These reasons should mean he shouldn't go, but then again some of Deccie's calls defy reason.

Reddin, Boss and Stringer (my 3) all offer better options, even tho none are close to being WC.

Murray would benefit playing regularly for munster, can see him being a quality player.

I wouldn't take O'Leary but I think Kidney will (along with Stringer).

Murray's time will come but he hasn't had any high level experience, or played with Sexton and Heaslip. It would be a massive call to give him the gametime he would need between now and then at the expense of the others.

Stringer will go simply because he can slot into the team seamlessly, and has been picked when TOL was out injured.

So it's between TOL and Boss for the third spot. IMO Boss should go because he plays particularly well with SOB and offers some on field cover for wing and FB. I'm sure Boss would be especially motivated to play in his 'homeland', but I'm equally sure that Leinster will not want to lose both of the premier SHs to the RWC.
TOL is a bit quicker than Boss, offers good defence and has more Test experience. There is also some speculation that if Paddy Wallace didn't go he could be nominated as the third FH (madness in my view).

Can't see Boss & Reddan going. Leinster don't have the depth at scrumhalf to let two SHs go to the world cup. IMO, it will be Reddan who incidentally usually has one or two major brainfarts in every game.

I strongly disagree that defence & pace isn't important. I wouldn't fancy Reddan or Stringer bringing down Ngwenya. O'Leary would have a chance.

the-goon wrote:Hi,

One of my 1st postings on this site.

I don't think he should go, along with the unforced errors and poor discipline he was the main reason for our poor 6N. His poor service and decision making had many fans pulling their hair out, he was (and prob still is now) not 100% match fit and just doesn't have the skills needed for the job. These reasons should mean he shouldn't go, but then again some of Deccie's calls defy reason.

Reddin, Boss and Stringer (my 3) all offer better options, even tho none are close to being WC.

Murray would benefit playing regularly for munster, can see him being a quality player.

I hope Murray doesn't go - I'd much prefer to see him building up a partnership with Keatly in Munster during the world cup. In saying that, he seems to have a very cool head and well up to bossing the pack. Defensively very good - himself (& Felix Jones) put in some great tackles to keep Leinster try less in the Magners final. He also has a great box kick. Main thing though is that say, unlike Sean Cronin, he seems to be very relaxed in big games - and the Magners Final would have been a big game.

SinE, was I telling you about my mate whose Murrays first cousin. He had this conversation with him and "apparently" Murray suggested that the last thing he wants is to find he has lost the Musnter starting shirt to O'Leary when he gets home from NZ.

Interesting Stag - so he is a confident little fecker - top qualities in a scrumhalf!

That comments about O'Leary being able to have the starting Munster jersey suggests that O'Leary's fitness is in question. Is he still getting the back spasms?

From a neutral's point of view, I suspect that O'Leary will be in your squad, along with Reddan (current incumbent) and Stringer (because he is the one great technician of a SH you have available, even if he has no break and offers little defence since he weighs less than one of my legs).

I reckon Reddan will be the starter and Stringer on the bench, but if Reddan misses a game TOL will come in to start and PS remain on the bench (where his ability to change the tempo of a match is very useful).

It's a RWC, and experience is going to count for quite a bit, especially in key positions.

I don't see how O'Leary can be considered an option at flyhalf.

Sin- Didn't mean to say that defence for a scrumhalf wasn't important but I believe it is much less important that speed and quality of service and also is less important now than it was in 2009.

I don't see what good traits O'Leary has that Kidney would want that he couldn't find in Boss.

He obviously has a lot of experience though and deals with big games well.

Sin e Stringer could bring down rampaging bull with that tap tackle of his. For me it has to be Reddan, Stringer and Murray. Reddan does have his moments in a game where you think 'Feck what the hell's he done that for?', however far too often in a game I find myself screaming at TOL when he's at the base of a ruck.

Pete, I don't get why O'Leary can't be considered an option bearing in mind he has hardly played since he got injured during the 6Nations.

I think too much is being read into O'Leary not getting any gametime, although apparently fit for Munster. You have to remember that he had two injuries - back problem and an eye problem, it would be hard to have him matchfit for 'must win games' and then, Murray was outstanding. Stringer will get the bench spot because he can change a game.

O'Leary couldn't even have got a game with his AIL club to get match fit as their season would have been well finished by the time he was ready to come back.

I just don't think he is right to go. There probably isn't a game where we will need a scrumhalf who is so defence minded, yet makes so may errors. For a scrumhalf is skill level is appalling.

We have much better options I think.

There isn't a game where tactically you could justify his inclusion

Conor Murray is one of a clutch of players I see coming into the Ireland team is the Six Nations including Jones and McFadden. Right now, I would pick O'Leary... who could be looking at an international swansong.

Wel if he does go hes going to be 3rd choice.....

In an ideal world you'd have Boss covering... TOL is a bloody liability!

WillyGilly wrote:Sin e Stringer could bring down rampaging bull with that tap tackle of his. For me it has to be Reddan, Stringer and Murray. Reddan does have his moments in a game where you think 'Feck what the hell's he done that for?', however far too often in a game I find myself screaming at TOL when he's at the base of a ruck.

Stringer's tap tackle is brilliant, but Tomas O'Leary touchline defence is superb. Mind you, Murray isn't bad either if going on the Magners final. Kearney's defence isn't great - and if he (or Geordan Murphy) are fullback, you'd need O'Leary.

Equally, I find myself screaming at Reddan when he throws an incerpt pass, or decides to run from our own 22 when he knows he should just boot it out of there. Reddan can be slow at rucktime. Think Munster got to him a few times during the Magners Final and stole the ball (though, to be fair to Reddan, he had a 'mare of a game that day).

Notch wrote:now, I would pick O'Leary... who could be looking at an international swansong.

At the age of 27?? When Reddan, Stringer and Boss are all into their 30s?

He'll play again for Ireland. To me its him, Murray and O'Donoghue for the next World Cup.

Why would you send O'Leary though other than for experience and versatility. He is the worst scrumhalf we have at the moment skill wise out of the 5 options

Stag-

that lad from ulster will be in there too, is it Marshall or Porter????

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Stag-

that lad from ulster will be in there too, is it Marshall or Porter????

Will he though? He may find it tough to crack into the national selections especially as Reddan and Boss aren't gonna retire straight away.

red_stag wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Stag-

that lad from ulster will be in there too, is it Marshall or Porter????

Will he though? He may find it tough to crack into the national selections especially as Reddan and Boss aren't gonna retire straight away.

Marshall isn't going to be International class.
Porter was injured for large parts of last year - he really needs to make an impact this year

Thanks geoff. I think it was Porter I can remember him playing really well in a few consecutive games

Also Duncan Williams remains a promising scrumhalf also. He was impressive in the Australia v Munster game and many touted him ahead of Murray when both were in academy. He may get itchy feet and fancy another province. Or even claim the Munster red shirt anything is possible.

Porter is a very promising 9, hoping to see have an impact this year. Big season for him.

red_stag wrote:

Notch wrote:now, I would pick O'Leary... who could be looking at an international swansong.

At the age of 27?? When Reddan, Stringer and Boss are all into their 30s?

He'll play again for Ireland. To me its him, Murray and O'Donoghue for the next World Cup.

That's assuming he'll ever be able to win back his Munster place. For me, there's Murray and Duncan Williams coming through- I can see him being pushed way down the provincial pecking order.

Back to O'Leary. Can anyone give me a reason why O'Leary should go ahead of Boss or Murray other than experience?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Why would you send O'Leary though other than for experience and versatility. He is the worst scrumhalf we have at the moment skill wise out of the 5 options

You seem to be ignoring Reddan's brain farts though which usually cost bigtime and he frequently gets thrown around like a rag doll.

Its going to be hard for any of the Ulster SHs to break through with Pienaar there.

Duncan Williams will need to assess his options. Munster will stick with Murray as Williams injury record isn't great.

Who would host the X-factor???

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Back to O'Leary. Can anyone give me a reason why O'Leary should go ahead of Boss or Murray other than experience?

Boss - no scrumhalf backup in Leinster if both Reddan & Boss go to the RWC.

Murray - hasn't played with either Heislip or Sexton (which is why I think O'leary got so many starts for Ireland when Sexton was playing).

Sin é wrote:You seem to be ignoring Reddan's brain farts though which usually cost bigtime and he frequently gets thrown around like a rag doll.

Not at all that's why I'd want Murray and Stringer to go.

I understand the game time with Sexton and Heaslip thing that makes sense.

the no good scrumhalf at Leinster thing I couldn't care about. Not Ireland's fault Leinster don't have 3 good scrumhalves. I am a leinster fan.

I don't think the scrumhalves in Leinster arguement should even be considered an option

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I don't think the scrumhalves in Leinster arguement should even be considered an option

Nor do I really.

red_stag wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I don't think the scrumhalves in Leinster arguement should even be considered an option

Nor do I really.

Me neither.

Considering Boss has hardly featured in an Irish team in a long time, I'd say he is out of the equasion. If he was in the equasion, Leinster would have signed someone to cover (like they signed Carr). As it is, I think they have signed the very injury prone Cillian Willis as backup. Seems to be they were working on only supplying 1 SH to Ireland for the RWC.

Boss has his faults as well - and while his service might look reasonable for Leinster, I seem to remember him taking a couple of steps when he played at international level which used to infurate everyone.

Sin é wrote:Considering Boss has hardly featured in an Irish team in a long time, I'd say he is out of the equasion. If he was in the equasion, Leinster would have signed someone to cover (like they signed Carr). As it is, I think they have signed the very injury prone Cillian Willis as backup. Seems to be they were working on only supplying 1 SH to Ireland for the RWC.

Boss has his faults as well - and while his service might look reasonable for Leinster, I seem to remember him taking a couple of steps when he played at international level which used to infurate everyone.

Sin-Ridiculous. I am not a huge fan of Boss tbh but I think he is the right man for the job if not Murray.

WHO CARES HOW MANY SCRUMHALVES LEINSTER HAVE!? If one at the RWC gets seriously injured the IRFU will just take Boss. IRELAND FIRST, PROVINCIAL STUFF SECOND.

He used to take a couple of steps when he played for Ireland and ulster yes, you're quite right. Important part of the sentence "used to".

He has been playing really well all year when he comes on IMO. His attacking around the fringes is great and heaslip and SOB read his runs so well and look for the offloads that he is adept in giving.
His pass has got much better since his days in Ulster

Thats Leinsters problem if they have no scrum halves and it should have no impact on the Ireland squad selection.

Boss service is not the best around but at least he doesn't boot the ball away when we're in the opponents half like O'Leary does or stand looking at the ball for 5 minutes before deciding which way to pass.

No-one signed Cillian Willis Sin. he's pursuing a career outside of rugby.

Why isn't Boss first choice for Leinster then? Because, if he is as good as you are claiming he is, he should have started the Heineken Cup Final.

Maybe its more or something to do with whichever scrumhalf comes off the bench for Leinster, usually looks to be the best one.

As for caring about the Leinster scrumhalf - if it was a possibility that Leinster would be required to send 2 scrumhalfs, Leinster would not have let Paul O'Donoghue go to Connacht to be Franke Murphy's backup. And he would have wanted to stay as it would have been an opportunity for him to get gametime in Leinster.

Notch wrote:No-one signed Cillian Willis Sin. he's pursuing a career outside of rugby.

Notch, I heard somewhere he is doing world cup cover for Leinster before he retires fully. Handy cover for a month or two as he would be familiar with the Leinster setup.

Sin é wrote:Why isn't Boss first choice for Leinster then? Because, if he is as good as you are claiming he is, he should have started the Heineken Cup Final.

Because Reddan is playing better maybe? No one is saying Boss is great but he's better than O'Leary imo.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:Why isn't Boss first choice for Leinster then? Because, if he is as good as you are claiming he is, he should have started the Heineken Cup Final.

Because Reddan is playing better maybe? No one is saying Boss is great but he's better than O'Leary imo.

You haven't seen an uninjured O'Leary in 6 months to know which one is the better SH. O'Leary should be given the same chance as any of the rest of them coming back from injury.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:Why isn't Boss first choice for Leinster then? Because, if he is as good as you are claiming he is, he should have started the Heineken Cup Final.

Because Reddan is playing better maybe? No one is saying Boss is great but he's better than O'Leary imo.

+1

O'Leary is just such a negative player.

First of all the rules that allowed that style of play to be successful are long gone
Secondly the worst thing you could do really is kick the ball away to the Aussies aimlessly (a la O'Leary)

Someone argued his defence was worth him kicking the ball away so much. Is it really though? What O'Leary kicks it away or attack breaks down to slow ball or something. So by making a mistake with the ball O'Leary then has a chance to shine in defence. I'd much rather still have the ball tbh

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:No-one signed Cillian Willis Sin. he's pursuing a career outside of rugby.

Notch, I heard somewhere he is doing world cup cover for Leinster before he retires fully. Handy cover for a month or two as he would be familiar with the Leinster setup.

Fair enough. Not a bad idea.

I wouldn't have called his try against France in the 6Ns to be negative tbh (even with his back problem).

And for the record - O'leary kicked the ball twice against France in the 6Ns.

Sin é wrote:And for the record - O'leary kicked the ball twice against France in the 6Ns.

Yeah once was straight into touch of turnover ball, inside the french half.

I thought his try against France was more a case of great offloading by Paul O'Connell rather than anything O'leary did. He doesn't make life easy for teh players outside him and that is his primary duty