NEWS: Darcy out for next 6 weeks

First topic message reminder :

www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby

Darcy is out for the next six weeks after the ankle injury he picked up in the HCup final. He will miss the Scotland, Connacht and first French game. He will be back around 6 weeks time but we can't be sure if he will be fit and/or ready for matches against Franch and England in Dublin.

One would assume his place will be taken by Wallace, with possibly mcFadden getting a run out or even Bowe/Earls.

Ferris also didn't train and continues with rehab.

Kearney is nowhere enar the best fullback in the world

Murphy still has much to offer in green. People underrate him especially over the last 2 years where he really started to shine

IF there is no Darcy Wallace is next in line unless McFadden can do something of huge note in the warm ups

Earls played great at 15 against England but was rarely tested defensively with high balls etc. (remember his first lions game??)

Lads.... I think it is time for a couple of deep breaths.
Everyone is really jumping on any comments and going to town on them. End of the day, we have options for inside centre. We have options for fullback. The training camps and warm up games will allow Kidney to give all options a chance of putting their hand up for the starting position come the RWC.
Lets not automatically decide that your right, everyone else is wrong and that Kidney has already made the wrong decision....... because after all, I'M RIGHT.

Boyne wrote:"Wallace is, in Kidneys eyes, the back up to D'Arcy. Some may not agree but that is where we are."

Here we go again.

HOW DO YOU KNOW!!!???

Lets look at the fact

McFadden has not played one single second as a 12 for Ireland.
Wallace has played in a number of games at 12 under Kidney.
Against Scotland Wallace was the cover for the backs.
Against Italy when D'Arcy went off it was Wallace who played 12.

Form can change anything butthere is no indication that Kidney sees McFadden as his cover 12

Boyne wrote:

roddersm wrote:

WillyGilly wrote:Pile of bolloks.

Yeah I probably would have been more ...conservative with my wording but Willy sums up what you're saying nicely here Boyne

Whats that?? That P Wallace IS the back up to Darcy and thats a set in stone FACT and we all should keep quiet cause thats the way it is and thats the way it'll be whether WE like it or not???

No but there has been no indication from Kidney that he sees anyone other than Wallace as his back up 12. If McFadden, who has yet to play 12 for Ireland, impresses in the warm up games then he might get the nod but from what I've seen this season I believe Wallace is the more likely to start should D'arcy get injured.

I don't know on what you're basing this idea that McFadden will definitely start if D'arcy is injured. Remember this is Ireland we're talking about and not Leinster.....

Personally I wouldn't pre-judge what you'll see during the warm-up games, or during the WC itself. There are some close calls in the Ireland team, and I'm sure that Kidney will want to use the warm-ups wisely to see who is going to show some form.

"I don't know on what you're basing this idea that McFadden will definitely start if D'arcy is injured. Remember this is Ireland we're talking about and not Leinster....."

I am basing it on the fact that Wallace is NOT an international class center and generally has had nightmares when playing for Ireland.

Also, based on the fact that McFadden is overall a much better rugby player that Wallace, with a bigger future.

Why Wallace? Is it because he had a "fantastic" SH tour, when the ABs where basically toying with us, whist being 30 or so points ahead?

Or are you basing it on the hours and hours of impressive outings for Ireland over the years he has had???

Or on the fact that some Ulster fans (you included) wouldnt even have him on the Ulster team?????

Come on!

Boyne wrote:

roddersm wrote:

WillyGilly wrote:Pile of bolloks.

Yeah I probably would have been more ...conservative with my wording but Willy sums up what you're saying nicely here Boyne

Whats that?? That P Wallace IS the back up to Darcy and thats a set in stone FACT and we all should keep quiet cause thats the way it is and thats the way it'll be whether WE like it or not???

Unequivically yes. How else do you explain Paddy's continual involvement in the 6n when McFadden was sent home. That really tells you all you need to know. Now I've conceded that if McFadden out performs Wallace in the summer tests there is no question he should start. Will you concede that if the opposite happens and Paddy has a storming few games he is the incumbent? Hmmm I doubt it.

Oh and you rasied the point about some Ulster fans not thinking he should be our 12. Eh who might these cretins be and who are they putting in at 12 instead?

"Will you concede that if the opposite happens and Paddy has a storming few games he is the incumbent? Hmmm I doubt it."

Yes I will, but I dont see it happening.

"Oh and you rasied the point about some Ulster fans not thinking he should be our 12. Eh who might these cretins be and who are they putting in at 12 instead?"

Rodders?

Boyne wrote:I said IF McF impresses in the summer tests, he'll get the 12 shirt.

Ditto Wallace. The point is if we have a game now and D'Arcy was injured Wallace would be putting on the 12 shirt.

Boyne wrote:. Look, some Ulster fans even reckon that he shouldnt be the 1st choice Ulster 12, so why is he good enough for Ireland??

Really who ?. Now we do have a 12 coming through who is, potentially, the best centre in a generation but here and now I don't think anyone would say Wallace is not the starting 12 for Ulster

Boyne wrote:. The decision has not been made, so despite what you think (unless YOU are DK) its all to play for.

Everything is to play for but Wallace is sitting 2nd in line for the 12 shirt. With the exception of POC and BOD no one is in such a commanding position that they are certain of a first XV shirt. Anyone else could play themselves out of the team with poor performances in the warm ups.

Boyne wrote:" I am basing it on the fact that Wallace is NOT an international class center and generally has had nightmares when playing for Ireland.

Total garbage when we he last went down to the SH he was outstanding and also has put in good performances at 10 as well.

Right first off you said 'fans' plural. Unless Rodders is skitsofrantic you'll have to do better. Also unless I'm mistaken, Rodders was refering to the period of time when Wallace was out injured at the end of the season!

But thats the thing!! The WC is NOT starting tomorrow. There are warm up games to go and the 30 man squad has yet to be announced...

So nobody, as you so beautifully highlighed with the BOD and POC examples, is nailed onto anything.. especially when we are discussing a place to back up another player.

There is no incumbent substitue. It is an example of the backward thinking which Irish teams in the past have been guilty of.

Its all to play for, nothing is set in stone.

We all have ideas about who we would like to see. Its all to be decided...

I did say before that I liked the Spence and Cave combo and that with Marshall there too I think Wallace may have to fight for a place in teh coming seasons. That is not the same as saying I wouldn't have him a 12 for Ulster. Wallace is a quality player and has arguably been the form 12 in Ireland this year.

I have no problem with McFadden starting if he plays better in the warm up games but I've seen very little evidence so far that he's an international 12 and even less that Kidney sees him as one, whereas Wallace has put in some good displays against the top sides and has been ever present under Kidney.

Good so you agree Sexton, SOB, Darcy, Reddan etc etc are not certain to start either.

Actually you problably could add Ross as a near certain start as well given the lack of options

"Now we do have a 12 coming through who is, potentially, the best centre in a generation but here and now I don't think anyone would say Wallace is not the starting 12 for Ulster"


Potentially the best centre in a generation?! Is this Nevin Spence you're talking about?

Come on Boyne - surely even you can agree that there's a little bit of Irish overhype going on there

Looks like I am incurring the wrath of my Northern cousins.. but its more entertaining than what I had planned for this time of day...

Geoff- the ABs were toying with us. And they were miles ahead. Sorry, but for all of his involvment in the Irish set up, if thats all he can contribute, then I dont think hes worth his place on the plane. Also, my post refers to his prowess (or lack thereof) at center, not OH. I do think hes the 3rd best OH qualified for Ireland though.

Willy, I know other Northerns in the real world too. Im from Louth, so its not such a hard notion to grasp. A fair few saw Wallace as losing his place in the Ulster team when he got injured.

Look, sum up all of Wallaces experiences at center for Ireland and I argue that overall the impact he has made was more negative than positive.

McF? 1 (or 2) cap- 1 try. Albeit on the wing.

A couple of points I'd like to add about Keith Earls at 13:

The last sustained uninjured run of games he's had at 13 was up until the end of the 2009/2010 season. He then sustained a groin injury shortly after POC's but was still playing given that it was the business end of the season and there were no other options.

As has already been said previously, during the sustained run he played at 13 for the majority of the game against Wales and scored 2 tries. Shortly after that he was injured and didn't really return to action again until October of the 2010/2011 season just gone. He struggled badly for form due to an ankle injury he'd picked up in pre-season. If we'd played him at wing during this time he'd have been pretty bad too.

After a while he regained form and fitness. This corresponded with the beginning of the Six Nations. His first 2-3 games were pretty quiet by his standards but because he finished very strongly people seem to gloss over this (much like many people's view of that campaign as a whole).

I think much of what's been said about Earls' defence was perfectly valid 12-18 months ago but he's learned a lot since and is actually quite strong in that area now. My biggest problem with Earls playing at 13 at International level is this:

Every time he gets the ball he looks to make an outside break. When successful, his offloading or pass to those outside him is actually quite good. However, making an outside break from 13 at International level is VERY hard to do so invariably he'll go into contact.

So, to bring some coherence to my rambling...
- When everyone is fit and available Earls should play at either 11 or 15, my preference would be 11.
- When we rest BOD (we have to do this against Russia probably) we should play Earls at 13 due to the fact that he's more likely to get space and therefore more likely to make that devastating outside break.
- Earls should NOT be seen as anything other than a Back 3 player who also provides cover for BOD (in the case of injury and rotation).
- Earls should not be left on the bench due to him cover many positions IF he is the best option we have as a starting winger/fullback.

Feel free to disagree. This is just how I see it.*

*I'm only talking about RWC2011 for Ireland. Where Earls ends up for Munster/Ireland in the future doesn't matter right now.

When we rest BOD (we have to do this against Russia probably) we should play Earls at 13 due to the fact that he's more likely to get space and therefore more likely to make that devastating outside break.


The only problem I have with this is that if Earls is our first choice 11 then he'll need a rest at some stage as well.

Scot- a wee bit

OK- positions up for grabs.

15. 12. 11. 9. 7. 4.

I think the rest are pretty much garanteed bar injury. 12 is in there cause of injury to Darcy (who should be under the microscope in any case)

Let me add that i would be delighted if Wallace made the 12 shirt his own and kept Darcy and mcF on the bench. It would mean he is class. But it wont happen.

funnyExiledScot wrote:"Now we do have a 12 coming through who is, potentially, the best centre in a generation but here and now I don't think anyone would say Wallace is not the starting 12 for Ulster"

Potentially the best centre in a generation?! Is this Nevin Spence you're talking about?

No Luke Marshall.

Wallace did not and was not losing his place when he got injured.
If someone thinks that they are mistaken.

This is something I actually know for a fact.

Boyne wrote:Look, sum up all of Wallaces experiences at center for Ireland and I argue that overall the impact he has made was more negative than positive.

McF? 1 (or 2) cap- 1 try. Albeit on the wing.

Would you like to show us the calulation Boyne and what you are adding to this sum?

So the sum of mcF's 1 appearance of the wing means he has produced positive impact for Ireland as a 12?

MMC wrote:A couple of points I'd like to add about Keith Earls at 13:

The last sustained uninjured run of games he's had at 13 was up until the end of the 2009/2010 season. He then sustained a groin injury shortly after POC's but was still playing given that it was the business end of the season and there were no other options.

As has already been said previously, during the sustained run he played at 13 for the majority of the game against Wales and scored 2 tries. Shortly after that he was injured and didn't really return to action again until October of the 2010/2011 season just gone. He struggled badly for form due to an ankle injury he'd picked up in pre-season. If we'd played him at wing during this time he'd have been pretty bad too.

After a while he regained form and fitness. This corresponded with the beginning of the Six Nations. His first 2-3 games were pretty quiet by his standards but because he finished very strongly people seem to gloss over this (much like many people's view of that campaign as a whole).

I think much of what's been said about Earls' defence was perfectly valid 12-18 months ago but he's learned a lot since and is actually quite strong in that area now. My biggest problem with Earls playing at 13 at International level is this:

Every time he gets the ball he looks to make an outside break. When successful, his offloading or pass to those outside him is actually quite good. However, making an outside break from 13 at International level is VERY hard to do so invariably he'll go into contact.

So, to bring some coherence to my rambling...
- When everyone is fit and available Earls should play at either 11 or 15, my preference would be 11.
- When we rest BOD (we have to do this against Russia probably) we should play Earls at 13 due to the fact that he's more likely to get space and therefore more likely to make that devastating outside break.
- Earls should NOT be seen as anything other than a Back 3 player who also provides cover for BOD (in the case of injury and rotation).
- Earls should not be left on the bench due to him cover many positions IF he is the best option we have as a starting winger/fullback.

Feel free to disagree. This is just how I see it.*

*I'm only talking about RWC2011 for Ireland. Where Earls ends up for Munster/Ireland in the future doesn't matter right now.

MMC I think that's a great post clear and concise. Well done. I agree with everything there except a few points and want to add two aswell.

1) His passing is not good enough to be a international 13. IMO obviously.
2) His line running is very good. Very similar to Fitz's (maybe not as good but he holds his depth on the lines better)
3) I do still have a problem with his positional defence at 13. He looks unassertive and at times (only at times) slightly loss.

Earls should be starting in the back 3 and cover for BOD as you said. I would be tempted to let Bowe play 13 more so.

If Kearney is going to be our first choice FB then we might as well not bother going to the WC.

Gibson and co ranting on about how good he is and what he has to offer.

Pros Good under a high ball
Has got a great boot

Cons Cannot tackle for toffee. Jesus even ROG looks world class in
that area compared to him.
His attacking play is also shocking and usually ends with him
running into one of his own players.

That's it boys,you keep on championing his cause because he is a Leinster boy.Nacewa must be quaking in his boots at the very thought of when the Magnificent Kearney returns and takes the Leinster 15 shirt off him.

Is that a pig flying overhead?

Think about what's good for Ireland eh!

The one arguement I find for bring Kearney to the RWC is...

That if we end up playing in a storm and have to play negative rugby he is the guy who will do us the most good at beating the other team. He would be good for teams like italy and S.Africa.

Sorry, also has experience

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
1) His passing is not good enough to be a international 13. IMO obviously.
2) His line running is very good. Very similar to Fitz's (maybe not as good but he holds his depth on the lines better)
3) I do still have a problem with his positional defence at 13. He looks unassertive and at times (only at times) slightly loss.

Earls should be starting in the back 3 and cover for BOD as you said. I would be tempted to let Bowe play 13 more so.

1) I do agree with this but I'd limit it to his passing across the backline. By that I mean, swift passes in a single phase from 10 to 12/13 to 11/14 (or whoever's standing in the backline at the time). The biggest problem with this is that he's acutely aware of this limitation which is why he takes the line on himself far too often in that position. As I said, I'm agreeing with you - but I'd just make the disclaimer that his passing AFTER a break has been made (when there's more space and less pressure) is actually quite good, leading me to believe that it's a mental thing more than anything else.

2) Agreed. Which is why he looks so good in the Back 3 AND off the shoulder of a direct 12 like JDV.

3) As I've said, I would've agree with this previously but not quite as much now. Although I would admit that it's an area that he really needs gametime to work on.

As for the final comment about Bowe at 13 - the man is a great winger, I don't see him as a centre at all. There's the reason why the Ospreys rarely give him a sustained run there. He's far more effective at 14 IMO and is wasted at 13. That's just my opinion.

geoff998rugby wrote:
Wallace did not and was not losing his place when he got injured.
If someone thinks that they are mistaken.

This is something I actually know for a fact.

Well it certainly wasn't me who suggested Wallace was dropped or losing his place. He's played some of the best rugby of his career this season. I only suggested in the coming seasons that competition would be fierce in the center positions and that in my OWN oppinon Wallace would have to be on top form(as will everyone else). There is no question in my mind that he is a 1st team player at Ulster and an important one too.

This is all irelevent anyway considering the player Boyne is suggesting WILL start ahead of Wallace is definitely not 1st choice 12 at Leinster.

MMC wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
1) His passing is not good enough to be a international 13. IMO obviously.
2) His line running is very good. Very similar to Fitz's (maybe not as good but he holds his depth on the lines better)
3) I do still have a problem with his positional defence at 13. He looks unassertive and at times (only at times) slightly loss.

Earls should be starting in the back 3 and cover for BOD as you said. I would be tempted to let Bowe play 13 more so.

1) I do agree with this but I'd limit it to his passing across the backline. By that I mean, swift passes in a single phase from 10 to 12/13 to 11/14 (or whoever's standing in the backline at the time). The biggest problem with this is that he's acutely aware of this limitation which is why he takes the line on himself far too often in that position. As I said, I'm agreeing with you - but I'd just make the disclaimer that his passing AFTER a break has been made (when there's more space and less pressure) is actually quite good, leading me to believe that it's a mental thing more than anything else.

2) Agreed. Which is why he looks so good in the Back 3 AND off the shoulder of a direct 12 like JDV.

3) As I've said, I would've agree with this previously but not quite as much now. Although I would admit that it's an area that he really needs gametime to work on.

As for the final comment about Bowe at 13 - the man is a great winger, I don't see him as a centre at all. There's the reason why the Ospreys rarely give him a sustained run there. He's far more effective at 14 IMO and is wasted at 13. That's just my opinion.

1) I think it's because he can't get the ball in and out of his hands quick enough and well enough. It takes him too long (for a centre) to get the ball and then get it away. I agree that his passing under no pressure is completely find.

2) He isn't really a solid defender though is he? The way BOD shoots out of the line at nearly always the right time. The way he commands so much ground defensively and leads the line himself. Earls can't read a game like BOD very few can I think

Wow, I just realised I've only made 13 14 posts on this site. I'm such a lurker...

Rodders never mind 1st choice 12 Rodders he was only ever 1st choice for the 23 jersey. Ludicrous to suggest he's the front runner for a starting world cup berth.

Seriously, as well as Bowe and Trimble have played for their Provinces/Region and Ireland recently, leaving Earls on the bench if near certifiable. And I am avoiding the Kearney issue.

On a related note, you 'deserve' nothing in sport. You have to earn it (this applies to all players hoping to make the squad, not just Kearney)

Tayto, surely a Leinster blinkered approach would be to keep Kearney out of the squad and push for Felix Jones to be on the plane.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:The way BOD shoots out of the line at nearly always the right time. The way he commands so much ground defensively and leads the line himself. Earls can't read a game like BOD very few can I think

We're spoiled, that's the problem.

I suppose I should address the actual topic...
Ireland has a real problem producing top quality 12s doesn't it? Luke Marshall and JJ Hanrahan are potentially 2 for the future but in terms of producing big ball carrying 12s that are so effective in the modern game, a la JDV, Jauzion, Nonu etc we're pretty lacking.

<wum>What about trying TOL there?</wum>

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

2) He isn't really a solid defender though is he? The way BOD shoots out of the line at nearly always the right time. The way he commands so much ground defensively and leads the line himself. Earls can't read a game like BOD very few can I think

That's a point I made yesterday; whomever replaces BOD at 13 when the time comes, he is very unlikely to be as good as BOD. We have to a) accept this and b) not slate the guy for not attaining the levels BOD. Where we can judge him is how effective he is against his peers. BOD wont be casting a shadow, he's gone and dug a trench!

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Tayto, surely a Leinster blinkered approach would be to keep Kearney out of the squad and push for Felix Jones to be on the plane.

Exactly Band,

But blind faith in your Provincial players has no case for inclusion in an Ireland squad.
I hope to God he stays at home and whether it benefits Leinster or not, imo it will
definetly benefit Ireland.

MMC wrote:

<wum>What about trying TOL there?</wum>

Well, it would solve the problem of him f*~@ing about at the base of a ruck.....You could be on to something right there..

For O'Leary see

https://www.606v2.com/t7994-ireland-why-o-leary-should-not-go-to-the-world-cup-pros-cons

McFadden could be a ball carrying 12 he breaks tackles very well and stays on his feet to get the second drive too. Also can kick and pass well and has good defence.

MMC wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:The way BOD shoots out of the line at nearly always the right time. The way he commands so much ground defensively and leads the line himself. Earls can't read a game like BOD very few can I think

We're spoiled, that's the problem.

I suppose I should address the actual topic...
Ireland has a real problem producing top quality 12s doesn't it? Luke Marshall and JJ Hanrahan are potentially 2 for the future but in terms of producing big ball carrying 12s that are so effective in the modern game, a la JDV, Jauzion, Nonu etc we're pretty lacking.

I think it's more that we don't produce big backs full stop. Even Bowe and Trimble aren't that big compared to some other countries backs.

Downey is obviously an exception and Spence is pretty big and strong for someone so young. McFadden is stocky and powerful but not really any bigger physically than BOD, D'arcy or Wallace.

Size isn't everything Rodders

WillyGilly wrote:Size isn't everything Rodders

No but it helps!

Not in my experience

So D'Arcy will probably be available for the last two games and unavailable for the first two warm-up games. Common sense dictates we play McFadden in one and Wallace in the other. Get a good look at both players.

Right now, Wallace is a better 12 than McFadden- or at least a proven 12. It's something of a shame McFadden hasn't got the time at 12 for Leinster he needs to put in a serious challenge for the Ireland shirt but we have everything to gain by giving him a chance to show he can do it in one of the warm-ups.

Downey, by the way, is an awful player. So mind-numbingly predictable. But then, I've always been a fan of having two playmakers at 10 and 12 with strike runners at 11, 13 and 14. I think having Sexton and Wallace will give us so many options in attack; my mouth is watering.

"Downey, by the way, is an awful player."

Total nonsense. You clearly haven't watched much of Northampton this season. He's been outstanding for them. He is a limited player, but what he does, he does well.

funnyExiledScot wrote:"Downey, by the way, is an awful player."

Total nonsense. You clearly haven't watched much of Northampton this season. He's been outstanding for them. He is a limited player, but what he does, he does well.

Why would someone watch the average league he plays in

WillyGilly wrote:Not in my experience

Mine neither...hey we're still talking about rugby here right?....

This article shouldn't really be about finding 'cover' for D'Arcy, but rather about who is best suited to play 12 for Ireland.

Darce had a shocking 6N (including poor defence), and IMO only kept his place because Kidney was trying to change the style of play especially with the introduction of Sexton, so couldn't afford to make too many changes in the backline.

Ireland have maybe only three or four players in the entire team who would have a chance of playing for the three teams ahead of them in the rankings, and none at 12 including D'Arcy.

So I don't understand the argument that someone who isn't international class is supposedly worse than everyone else who aren't international class either! Kidney has to pick the player who will give him the closest fit for the style of play he is attempting, so I'd expect both Wallace and McFadden to be tried.

caoimhincentre wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:"Downey, by the way, is an awful player."

Total nonsense. You clearly haven't watched much of Northampton this season. He's been outstanding for them. He is a limited player, but what he does, he does well.

Why would someone watch the average league he plays in

funnyExiledScot wrote:

caoimhincentre wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:"Downey, by the way, is an awful player."

Total nonsense. You clearly haven't watched much of Northampton this season. He's been outstanding for them. He is a limited player, but what he does, he does well.

Why would someone watch the average league he plays in

Clearly that was a wind up.
Being serious i think downey had his shop window in the HC final and didn't perform well. even in the first half it was Clarke who was doing the business in the centre for Northampton

The Great Aukster wrote:
Darce had a shocking 6N (including poor defence), and IMO only kept his place because Kidney was trying to change the style of play especially with the introduction of Sexton, so couldn't afford to make too many changes in the backline.

Ah now Aukster, thats way over the top. Lets not do a Paddy Wallace style hatchet job here on D'arcy. He did have a poor 6N overall but did better against England. He missed two tackles against France, one which cost us a try, but he made more tackles overall than any other back.

Personally I think he's hanging onto his Leinster and Ireland jersey's by a thread and he hasn't produced his best form in years but lets not go overboard here with the criticism.

The same with downey actually. I thought Wallace outplayed him in the HEC but he gave D'arcy and BOD a tough time in the Final.

Never have i seen so much arguing whilst agreeing on the main point. Hanrahan i wouldnt mind seeing move to 10 (i believe he actually already plays there) as im not certain he will be physical enough at 12. (i may be completely wrong).

either way i dont think he will displace Marshall but i was mighty impressed by his passing at the RWC. He threw a couple of cracking miss-passes. Realistically i think we will have far better 12's in the near future than we have had for many years

I agree with Ausker

ALSO and this is a big one we don't even know that Darcy won't travel yet