Do Munster know their best XV

Simple enough question. Do you think that Munster know their best XV? For me I think the lines between the 1st (or HEC XV) and 2nd (traditionally the ML XV) have been blurred.

I think that there are massive question marks at looshead, hooker, flanker, number 8, scrumhalf, wing, inside centre and outside centre.

And the most important question - is that a problem or is it ok?

I don't think they probably do but I think this is not unusual as they are clearly in a transition phase where there is exciting but relatively unproven talent coming through like Murray, Zebo, Nagle, Coughlan, Jones etc. and there are a lot of question marks over some of the older established players as to whether they can still produce the goods.

Clearly there is plenty of competition for places and I'm sure the 1st XV will become more apparant over the course of next season as the younger guys continue to establish themselves.

It's a problem because unlike, say, Toulouse were there are multiple quality players in many positions and it's hard to pick the best one for Munster there are multiple average players now in a lot of these positions. And it's not a problem because whoever takes the field raises their game to a higher standard to live up to the shirt.

[quote="roddersm"]I don't think they probably do but I think this is not unusual as they are clearly in a transition phase where there is exciting but relatively unproven talent coming through like Murray, Zebo, Nagle, Coughlan, Jones etc. and there are a lot of question marks over some of the older established players as to whether they can still produce the goods.
quote]

True enough. I think in the future their back row might be in trouble. Coughlan as many people forget is in his 30's

I think Leamy was the big disappointment of this season for you guys. He really didn't show up that well.

Barnes was a find at 13 though and hopefully that will keep earls on the wing.

One of your main strengths was your counterattacking ability with Earls-Jones-Howlett

Very very good back 3.

Murray will only get better also.

Who are your signings?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Who are your signings?

BJ Botha and Ian Keatley are the only signings so far. We have one Non Irish Qualified place remaining assumed to be a centre (de Villiers and Nonu are the most touted names)

Also backrow is DEFINITELY a weakness.

Botha from Ulster and Keatley are the only ones we have signed. But we have lost Quinlan,Tuitupou,Barry Murphy,Ian Dowling,Tony Buckley,Warwick and possibly John Hayes.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:One of your main strengths was your counterattacking ability with Earls-Jones-Howlett

Very very good back 3.

Murray will only get better also.

+1 I agree the back 3 is excellent and Murray looks class. Munsters problems are in the pack. They need a stronger set piece to compete with the top European sides again and the backrow isn't as good as it was.

Munsters strengths are out wide these days but I'm not convinced that ROG is the best player to release the backline. There was a lot of latteral passing last year behind the gain line.

I think if Munster are to get back too the pinicle of Europe again then they either need a pack that can bully the opposition again and/or a 10 and midfield who can open the best teams up.

Nonu is not coming to Europe - I am 90% certain.

roddersm wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:One of your main strengths was your counterattacking ability with Earls-Jones-Howlett

Very very good back 3.

Murray will only get better also.

+1 I agree the back 3 is excellent and Murray looks class. Munsters problems are in the pack. They need a stronger set piece to compete with the top European sides again and the backrow isn't as good as it was.

Munsters strengths are out wide these days but I'm not convinced that ROG is the best player to release the backline. There was a lot of latteral passing last year behind the gain line.

I think if Munster are to get back too the pinicle of Europe again then they either need a pack that can bully the opposition again and/or a 10 and midfield who can open the best teams up.

Rods i agree with you about most of what you are saying but i don't agree that with the Rog comment. Personally i think he is under-rated in how he gets a back line moving. Sure he is not going to make a break but he has an execptional pass that should be getting a back line moving. In my opinion the problem is the tactics.

The Munster of old used sucking in defences before going to the back line. Last year they tried to spread it wide a soon as possible. at this point most teams had a full complement spread across the pitch which ment that munster naturally drift wide without making ground.

Also they very rarely used strike runners to punch holes. If they did this and got quick ball from the resulting rucks you might see them make more progress out wide,.

ROG does need to get flatter. But they need a go to man at 12 who will run straight and suck in defenders and most importantly get the ball back quickly.

Scrum is still a bit of a weakness no? I know you did us over in it at the ML final but that's been more a less a once off no? Will Botha sort it out for you? Did he get an injury at the end of last year?

What's the answer to the backrow issue?
Would use spend on a NIQ there instead of centre? Keatly can play centre but isn't a crash merchant.

caoimhincentre wrote:

roddersm wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:One of your main strengths was your counterattacking ability with Earls-Jones-Howlett

Very very good back 3.

Murray will only get better also.

+1 I agree the back 3 is excellent and Murray looks class. Munsters problems are in the pack. They need a stronger set piece to compete with the top European sides again and the backrow isn't as good as it was.

Munsters strengths are out wide these days but I'm not convinced that ROG is the best player to release the backline. There was a lot of latteral passing last year behind the gain line.

I think if Munster are to get back too the pinicle of Europe again then they either need a pack that can bully the opposition again and/or a 10 and midfield who can open the best teams up.

Rods i agree with you about most of what you are saying but i don't agree that with the Rog comment. Personally i think he is under-rated in how he gets a back line moving. Sure he is not going to make a break but he has an execptional pass that should be getting a back line moving. In my opinion the problem is the tactics.

The Munster of old used sucking in defences before going to the back line. Last year they tried to spread it wide a soon as possible. at this point most teams had a full complement spread across the pitch which ment that munster naturally drift wide without making ground.

Also they very rarely used strike runners to punch holes. If they did this and got quick ball from the resulting rucks you might see them make more progress out wide,.

I agree with everything here. BUT ROG has to shoulder some of the blame because he is the leader in the backline and he is the one who sends the ball out wide or calls the screen pass. Also he has been far too deep. The opposition know he won't run at them and thus drift into midfield or come outside from the fringe defence. Still a class act though

Question for all you Munster supporters....

A friend of mine flew back from Manchester last night and on the plane there was the entire Munster team with Declan Kidney.

It seemed very strange to him and me..

Anyone know what the story is there?>

What was the entire Munster team doing in Manchester and why was DK with them?????

Boyne wrote:Question for all you Munster supporters....

A friend of mine flew back from Manchester last night and on the plane there was the entire Munster team with Declan Kidney.

It seemed very strange to him and me..

Anyone know what the story is there?>

What was the entire Munster team doing in Manchester and why was DK with them?????

Paul Darbyshires funeral was in Warrington

Got ya. Thanks Stag.

RE: ROG I suspect that Keatley and Hanrahan will start to emerge over next 18 months.

red_stag wrote:

Boyne wrote:Question for all you Munster supporters....

A friend of mine flew back from Manchester last night and on the plane there was the entire Munster team with Declan Kidney.

It seemed very strange to him and me..

Anyone know what the story is there?>

What was the entire Munster team doing in Manchester and why was DK with them?????

Paul Darbyshires funeral was in Warrington

Thanks for clearing that up. Very sad that he passed away.

Also maybe it will keep boyne with his munster, DK conspiracies talk quiet

Its a team bonding session. Global hide and seek

To be honest is in a bad thing not knowing your 'best' XV? I don't think the All Blacks know their best XV either

ScarletSpiderman wrote:To be honest is in a bad thing not knowing your 'best' XV? I don't think the All Blacks know their best XV either

I would say thats whats been their undoing in the past. For the Heineken Cup it isn't a good thing at all IMO but for league campaigns it has its benefits as it allows for form players to get their chance.

The biggest question mark is at inside centre. Everything outside of that can be called in my opinion.

Wasn't there some big thing that PDV said about JDV not enjoying his time in Munster? Who would you guys want at 12 as an NIQ excluding Nonu and JDV?

Is Horan gonna still be at 1 next year?

Backrow of
6? 7.Wallace 8.Coughlan
??????

"Also maybe it will keep boyne with his munster, DK conspiracies talk quiet"

Whats that supposed to mean you eejit? I just asked a question.... dont be a tool now "caoimhin"

Didn't think there was anything in your question Boyne. I'd have asked the same question.

I think while the HEC XV have dropped back (only slightly but the margins are very fine at that level between success and failure), the depth is improving in Munster with the Pro12 XV being only slightly behind the HEC XV. The biggest concern with both XVs is the drop off in the packs and set piece. How much is this down to the players getting older and how much is done to long injuries to the likes of Flannery and POC both of whom would be central to attitude, focus and accuracy in set pieces and about the park?

Boyne wrote:"Also maybe it will keep boyne with his munster, DK conspiracies talk quiet"

Whats that supposed to mean you eejit? I just asked a question.... dont be a tool now "caoimhin"

In all fairness now boyne you knew what you were doing when you were asking that question, i would imagine that you were going to say something like DK and his munster bias.

Of course if i'm wrong i apologies and i hope you accept it

Think about that for a second, Kev. Good man.

Best not to "imagine" what people "might" be thinking, eh?

I think Leamy will be at 6 next season. He was actually really quite good in the pool stages but faded off badly after that.

I'm actually hoping that Peter O'Mahoney can get a run at 8 this season. He's a fine footballer. Also, maybe Tommy O'Donnell or even Brian O'Hara getting an extended run at openside.

i have apologised to already boyne no need to get overly defensive.

Seems "Strange" to me that you wont just drop it.

Boyne wrote:Think about that for a second, Kev. Good man.

Best not to "imagine" what people "might" be thinking, eh?

Boyne, he apologised. Accept it and move on.

Lads there are private messages if you want to have that sort of thing. There was an apology made lets say no more

Munsty I really hope O'Donnell and O'Mahony can make the step up this year.

Gents, I'd suggest having this conversation right now is not the best idea. Especially after the answer to the question was to do with a funeral. Now would not be the best moment for any points scoring.

MBTGOG wrote:I think Leamy will be at 6 next season. He was actually really quite good in the pool stages but faded off badly after that.

I'm actually hoping that Peter O'Mahoney can get a run at 8 this season. He's a fine footballer. Also, maybe Tommy O'Donnell or even Brian O'Hara getting an extended run at openside.

He definitely lost a bit of his spark towards the end of the season and was punished for it too as he was dropped for the last few games.

Hopefully a full pre-season will help him return to his best. I'm sure this is the first one he has had in years.

Any word also on Fla? Since he's in the Irish squad you have to imagine he will be fit and ready yes?

No worries Kev. I forgive you.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Any word also on Fla? Since he's in the Irish squad you have to imagine he will be fit and ready yes?

So you'd imagine.

Sounds like someone has doubts or am I misinterpretting?

Fit for how long though?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Sounds like someone has doubts or am I misinterpretting?

I have doubts about our backrow if thats what you mean. I feel that we lack go-forward power and are generating fairly slow ball.

Stag,

He meant the Flannery comment.

red_stag wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Sounds like someone has doubts or am I misinterpretting?

I have doubts about our backrow if thats what you mean. I feel that we lack go-forward power and are generating fairly slow ball.

Do you have any concerns about the way the team is told to play stag.

MBTGOG wrote:Stag,

He meant the Flannery comment.

I also doubt he is fully fit.

As for the way we are told to play I don't have massive concerns.

red_stag wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Sounds like someone has doubts or am I misinterpretting?

I have doubts about our backrow if thats what you mean. I feel that we lack go-forward power and are generating fairly slow ball.

Do you think you might use the last NIQ spot for a no.8 instead of a centre,I like Coughlan and think he's a fine Magners League/Pro 12 level player but I think you need a bit more for the Heino.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

red_stag wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Sounds like someone has doubts or am I misinterpretting?

I have doubts about our backrow if thats what you mean. I feel that we lack go-forward power and are generating fairly slow ball.

Do you think you might use the last NIQ spot for a no.8 instead of a centre,I like Coughlan and think he's a fine Magners League/Pro 12 level player but I think you need a bit more for the Heino.

Its something I have considered as a better idea but I think that we are too light on quality centres really. I don't think Barnes is the messiah really. Ideally we wouldn't have 3 NIQ props but what can you do?

I think that's more than a little unfair on Coughlan. He has shown at all levels this season that he can do the business. Against Leinster in the ML final, he was just as good as his counterparts in the Leinster backrow, arguably the best in Europe.


Stag,

You spelled Munster wrong in the title.

[quote="caoimhincentre"]

roddersm wrote:Rods i agree with you about most of what you are saying but i don't agree that with the Rog comment. Personally i think he is under-rated in how he gets a back line moving. Sure he is not going to make a break but he has an execptional pass that should be getting a back line moving. In my opinion the problem is the tactics.

Pete has answered this already but I am not knocking O'Gara who is a fine passer. Hwoever in a number of games last year against the big teams he was too deep and just shipped the ball accross the field with out committing any defenders. I accept he is underrated at getting a backline moving but if Munster persist with a wide game I think they may struggle to break down the best defences with ROG at 10. Part of the problem is the centres and a lack of ball carriers, but Rog needs to shoulder some of the blame.

red_stag wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

red_stag wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Sounds like someone has doubts or am I misinterpretting?

I have doubts about our backrow if thats what you mean. I feel that we lack go-forward power and are generating fairly slow ball.

Do you think you might use the last NIQ spot for a no.8 instead of a centre,I like Coughlan and think he's a fine Magners League/Pro 12 level player but I think you need a bit more for the Heino.

Its something I have considered as a better idea but I think that we are too light on quality centres really. I don't think Barnes is the messiah really. Ideally we wouldn't have 3 NIQ props but what can you do?

The only reason i ask is this year they seem to be trying to run around teams first without sucking in defenders hence why you see the backline not making any ground and going from wing to wing,

Saying that i have never seen munster counter attack as well as they did towards the end of the season

Yeah the lack of IQ props capable of playing at provincial level is still a major problem and it will probably be 10-15 years before it's solved.

Sell one of them I guess. Munster seem to have a lot of issues (onthe other hand they are such a mentally strong team that they can overcome them)

1) Missing a very good all-round hooker
2) Backrow seem below par (Wallace aside)
3) ROG needs to be a bit flatter
4) Need a centre who can crash it up and draw in defenders creating space elsewhere
5) You need that go forward ball to create better attacking opportnities
6) Your pack is becoming very old
7) To many NIQ places taken by props
8) Lineout used to be the best in the world has slumped (to an extent, POC is back now though)

On the upside

1) You have a lot of great leaders
2) Proven quality players (Wallace, ROG, POC, Howlett, Earls)
3) great back 3
4) Your academy is finally beginning to warm up
5) Keatly and Botha are both very good signings