Do Munster know their best XV

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Simple enough question. Do you think that Munster know their best XV? For me I think the lines between the 1st (or HEC XV) and 2nd (traditionally the ML XV) have been blurred.

I think that there are massive question marks at looshead, hooker, flanker, number 8, scrumhalf, wing, inside centre and outside centre.

And the most important question - is that a problem or is it ok?

Sin é wrote:
Re Tuohy - isn't he a bit short at 6'5" for an international lock. Most of them are 6'6" at least. Bakkies Botha is 6'7.5"?

Brad Thorn is 6'5 and some people think he's not a bad 2nd row ...

Nagle is only 6'5 too I think and Mcglouchlin( ) is only 6'4 and being groomed a bit to play there.

That is a good point though and I think if your going to play a "shorter" guy you need a taller lock and tall back row to balance out. Already we're already quite short with POC,DOC and Cullen only 6'6. If you look at some of the other sides a lot of the locks are 6'8, 6'9 and the backrowers are 6'5 plus.

Same height as Mick O'Driscoll. A front-jumper can be about that height and be grand.

Sin é wrote:

red_stag wrote:I'd hope he takes O'Callaghans spot by the end of next year. For me we NEED either O'Donnell or O'Mahony to step up this season.

I don't understand that comment. Basically, you want DOC to fail!

No, he wants the younger player to succeed. To surpass him. Because DOC will inevitably decline, it's better for him to face a fight for his jersey now than for Munster to suffer down the line.

6'5 isn't too small for a lock.

Nagle is 6'6.

Regrowing pains.

It could take years. Look at the Tigers after 2001.

Anyway being the ML champions doesn't quite look like hitting the buffers.

Don't panic Mr Mainwaring.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Re Tuohy - isn't he a bit short at 6'5" for an international lock. Most of them are 6'6" at least. Bakkies Botha is 6'7.5"?

Brad Thorn is 6'5 and some people think he's not a bad 2nd row ...

Nagle is only 6'5 too I think and Mcglouchlin( ) is only 6'4 and being groomed a bit to play there.

That is a good point though and I think if your going to play a "shorter" guy you need a taller lock and tall back row to balance out. Already we're already quite short with POC,DOC and Cullen only 6'6. If you look at some of the other sides a lot of the locks are 6'8, 6'9 and the backrowers are 6'5 plus.

Noted the bolded part everyone!

I did a random check on the height of international locks. I could only find two who are under 6'6" - Brad Thorn & Nathan Hines (despite playing very well for Leinster, is a bench option/flanker option for Scotland). Richie Gray is 6'10" and Kellock is 6'8.5"). Boric 6'6.5" Tom Donnelly 6'6.5". Bradley Davies 6'6" AW Jones 6'6".

Tuohy may look great at Ulster with Muller 6'7", but we don't have any locks or potential locks who are over 6'7" (other than Devin Toner).

Portnoy wrote:Regrowing pains.

It could take years. Look at the Tigers after 2001.

Anyway being the ML champions doesn't quite look like hitting the buffers.

Don't panic Mr Mainwaring.

I thought Tigers won the Heineken Cup in 2002

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

red_stag wrote:I'd hope he takes O'Callaghans spot by the end of next year. For me we NEED either O'Donnell or O'Mahony to step up this season.

I don't understand that comment. Basically, you want DOC to fail!

No, he wants the younger player to succeed. To surpass him. Because DOC will inevitably decline, it's better for him to face a fight for his jersey now than for Munster to suffer down the line.

So, why isn't he calling for Nagle to surpass POC - he is the same age as DOC.

One thing about DOC which is a major plus - and that is how he has maintained his fitness and has been relatively injury free in comparision to POC & Cullen.

Jesus Sin relax. I'm amazed your even question this. I want a youn promising Munster player to force his way into the team now instead of having DOC in there at 35 and 36 years of age. The reason I didn't suggest O'Connell is he is a better player and a captain.

I'm astounded you don't accept this. I would also like to see a young player to take Wallace's 7 shirt in time but we don't have a viable option.

Munster will do better if Ryan raises his game. Also re: Nagle to surpass O'Connell - Nagle has a long way to go yet. Ryan has played a lot of Heineken Cup and has featured in 7 international test games.

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Re Tuohy - isn't he a bit short at 6'5" for an international lock. Most of them are 6'6" at least. Bakkies Botha is 6'7.5"?

Brad Thorn is 6'5 and some people think he's not a bad 2nd row ...

Nagle is only 6'5 too I think and Mcglouchlin( ) is only 6'4 and being groomed a bit to play there.

That is a good point though and I think if your going to play a "shorter" guy you need a taller lock and tall back row to balance out. Already we're already quite short with POC,DOC and Cullen only 6'6. If you look at some of the other sides a lot of the locks are 6'8, 6'9 and the backrowers are 6'5 plus.

Noted the bolded part everyone!

I did a random check on the height of international locks. I could only find two who are under 6'6" - Brad Thorn & Nathan Hines (despite playing very well for Leinster, is a bench option/flanker option for Scotland). Richie Gray is 6'10" and Kellock is 6'8.5"). Boric 6'6.5" Tom Donnelly 6'6.5". Bradley Davies 6'6" AW Jones 6'6".

Tuohy may look great at Ulster with Muller 6'7", but we don't have any locks or potential locks who are over 6'7" (other than Devin Toner).

Did you check the France squad? Nallet, Pape etc.


It's an issue if he's not winning in the lineout. It's not an issue if he is.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Re Tuohy - isn't he a bit short at 6'5" for an international lock. Most of them are 6'6" at least. Bakkies Botha is 6'7.5"?

Brad Thorn is 6'5 and some people think he's not a bad 2nd row ...

Nagle is only 6'5 too I think and Mcglouchlin( ) is only 6'4 and being groomed a bit to play there.

That is a good point though and I think if your going to play a "shorter" guy you need a taller lock and tall back row to balance out. Already we're already quite short with POC,DOC and Cullen only 6'6. If you look at some of the other sides a lot of the locks are 6'8, 6'9 and the backrowers are 6'5 plus.

Noted the bolded part everyone!

I did a random check on the height of international locks. I could only find two who are under 6'6" - Brad Thorn & Nathan Hines (despite playing very well for Leinster, is a bench option/flanker option for Scotland). Richie Gray is 6'10" and Kellock is 6'8.5"). Boric 6'6.5" Tom Donnelly 6'6.5". Bradley Davies 6'6" AW Jones 6'6".

Tuohy may look great at Ulster with Muller 6'7", but we don't have any locks or potential locks who are over 6'7" (other than Devin Toner).

Did you check the France squad? Nallet, Pape etc.


It's an issue if he's not winning in the lineout. It's not an issue if he is.

Leo Cullen stole at least 3 lineouts in Paris two years ago - so he obviously isn't winning his lineouts.
France hasn't had a decent lineout since Pelous retired. And the ABs are not exactly lauded for their lineout work either.

And yet they gain so, so much over us elsewhere in the pack.

It's a balancing act Sin. There are no hard and fast rules. The same way we have sacrificed our scrum for our lineout in the past by picking big, tall tightheads who are technically poor in the scrummage but add bulk and power as well as lineout lifting ability.

A 6'5 lock is grand in the lineouts if complemented by good jumpers in the backrow and a good middle jumper.

I'm getting dragged into another pointless argument over nothing aren't I

MBTGOG wrote:The biggest question mark is at inside centre. Everything outside of that can be called in my opinion.

plus one to this.

The only point I'm making really about Tuohy is that he is a bit short for an international lock and he will need to be exceptionally talented to overcome that. International locks seem to be getting taller and taller with the average now being about 6'7" - Tuohy is well below that average height.

Stag - thats fine with what you want for Nagle - it seems a bit cold hearted for a Munster fan to pick on any of our existing players who have been fantastic servants to Munster (& Ireland) to be gone for someone who has everything to prove yet. I doubt if you were thinking the same about Alan Quinlan or David Wallace 3/4 years ago.

Sin é wrote:The only point I'm making really about Tuohy is that he is a bit short for an international lock and he will need to be exceptionally talented to overcome that. International locks seem to be getting taller and taller with the average now being about 6'7" - Tuohy is well below that average height.

Sin he is about an inch shorter than our current locks so I think your exagerrating the issue a bit. I don't recall you rasing these concerns whenever Mick O'Driscoll, who's the same height, gets selected.

There's more to 2nd row play than just lineout jumping and he's probably the most powerful and athletic ball carrying lock we have available.

What are peoples thoughts with addition of Sean Scanlon to Munster squad.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:The only point I'm making really about Tuohy is that he is a bit short for an international lock and he will need to be exceptionally talented to overcome that. International locks seem to be getting taller and taller with the average now being about 6'7" - Tuohy is well below that average height.

Sin he is about an inch shorter than our current locks so I think your exagerrating the issue a bit. I don't recall you rasing these concerns whenever Mick O'Driscoll, who's the same height, gets selected.

There's more to 2nd row play than just lineout jumping and he's probably the most powerful and athletic ball carrying lock we have available.

Mick O'Driscoll is a fine club player, but has never made the same impression at international level. He was always 3/4th choice anyway. If D Ryan (6'7") hadn't got injured when he did last season, despite being behind MOD for Munster, he would have been ahead of MOD for Ireland (as it seems to be now).

Its not really about the height of the Irish locks - its about the opposition locks that he will come up against - they seem to be getting taller and taller nowadays - just like the backrows seem to be getting bigger and bigger nowadays as well. He might have been fine if he was around 10/12 years ago as an international lock.

He might do better as a backrower.

Stag,

Not so sure about it to be honest. Don't think he has what it takes but it's probably only a one year thing.

MBTGOG wrote:Stag,

Not so sure about it to be honest. Don't think he has what it takes but it's probably only a one year thing.

Thats what I thought too. Also don't think we need a back 3 player.

Some good news for Barry Murphy. He might be back!

Murphy Recovering From Surgery
4 July 2011, 12:04 pm
By The Editor
Munster and Ireland centre Barry Murphy (28) underwent surgery on his foot last week to correct a "Lisfrank" injury by fusing together two small bones in his foot.

The 28 year old whose seven year association with Munster Rugby came to end at the conclusion of last season had the operation in Dublin with his surgeon optimistic of a positive outcome.

"The surgeon seems to think there is a chance of a full recovery" reports Murphy, "After suffering long injured periods over the last two seasons, it is much too early to announce any chance of a comeback."

"I have six to nine months of recovery and rehab to go through. I’ll quite literally take each step at a time and take stock of what I’m capable of at the end of that process.”

“I’d like to thank everyone who has been so supportive, especially medical staff, players and coaches at Munster – not forgetting the supporters too.”

Murphy is looking forward to staying involved by helping with coaching duties at UL Bohemians this coming season.

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/9153.php

He won't be.I'd be astounded

You need to have a little faith Stag. Identifying the problem is half the battle. Why would he go through all the rehab without a chance of it working?

I'd imagine to have a more comfortable life. But he retired from Munster. I don't think he'll be back nor does it say he is trying to come back.

I think Tuohy would make an incredible lock for ireland just due to his abrasive style. I imagine our scrum would be bolstered by his addition and also he's a good ball carrying unit. This in tandem with Ryan who is more athletic and taller and better in the trenches soudns like a pretty tasty recipe to me

pete,

I think Ryan and Tuohy are currently the guys in pole position to take over from the old guard - POC, MOD, DOC and Leo.

Whether they will remain there or are good enough is another question.

Right now they seem to be getting the experience needed to be good enough. well maybe not Ryan as he isn't really a starter. But wasn't Tuohy playing in the HCup 1/4 final?

I think they could do a job there, not to POC+DOC standard but at least fill in. nagle too maybe? And McLaughlin?

geoff998rugby wrote:pete,

I think Ryan and Tuohy are currently the guys in pole position to take over from the old guard - POC, MOD, DOC and Leo.

Whether they will remain there or are good enough is another question.

Agree with this. I would say that Toner, Browne, Nagle are the next ones then.

For me the McLaughlin experiement isn't all its cracked up to be. Its somethign that can fill a void against Italian teams in the ML but not a long term international solution.

Whats happening with Nagle? He doesn't seem to have featured much towards the end of the season. I've only seen him play a couple of times but I've been really impressed. He seems pretty small though but looks like he reads the game very well.

Could he and Touhy work together? I think both are around 6'5 though and if so that probably wouldn't work.

roddersm wrote:Whats happening with Nagle? He doesn't seem to have featured much towards the end of the season. I've only seen him play a couple of times but I've been really impressed. He seems pretty small though but looks like he reads the game very well.

Could he and Touhy work together? I think both are around 6'5 though and if so that probably wouldn't work.

Basically he's a young guy in an experienced team. He is behind 4 international locks in O'Connell, O'Callaghan, O'Driscoll and Ryan and when its European knockout and playoff games he isn't gonna feature.

He's still very young so he'll get his gametime next season.