Do Munster know their best XV

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Simple enough question. Do you think that Munster know their best XV? For me I think the lines between the 1st (or HEC XV) and 2nd (traditionally the ML XV) have been blurred.

I think that there are massive question marks at looshead, hooker, flanker, number 8, scrumhalf, wing, inside centre and outside centre.

And the most important question - is that a problem or is it ok?

[quote="roddersm"]

caoimhincentre wrote:

roddersm wrote:Rods i agree with you about most of what you are saying but i don't agree that with the Rog comment. Personally i think he is under-rated in how he gets a back line moving. Sure he is not going to make a break but he has an execptional pass that should be getting a back line moving. In my opinion the problem is the tactics.

Pete has answered this already but I am not knocking O'Gara who is a fine passer. Hwoever in a number of games last year against the big teams he was too deep and just shipped the ball accross the field with out committing any defenders. I accept he is underrated at getting a backline moving but if Munster persist with a wide game I think they may struggle to break down the best defences with ROG at 10. Part of the problem is the centres and a lack of ball carriers, but Rog needs to shoulder some of the blame.

I agree centre is a huge issue. I feel this year though ROG has played an awful lot flat than he has in years gone by. if munster were more direct in the centre i think ROG would probably get more praise for bringing his centres into the game.

To be honest i think the true answer lies inbetween both our comments.

MBTGOG wrote:I think that's more than a little unfair on Coughlan. He has shown at all levels this season that he can do the business. Against Leinster in the ML final, he was just as good as his counterparts in the Leinster backrow, arguably the best in Europe.


Stag,

You spelled Munster wrong in the title.

Oh yea so I did. Coughlan is a very impressive player. Ryan at 6 was also impressive reassured me about his role in the Munster team in future.

Yeah Ryan did his World Cup hopes a lot of good that day.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Yeah Ryan did his World Cup hopes a lot of good that day.

That day? He turned in quite a number of good performances at 6 I felt.

Oh yeah I totally agree I just thought that performance in particular was exceptional. We have some versatile forwards but he is one that seems equally at home at lock or blindside flanker. I know he probably favours one position but he appears equally adept in both

He did put in a number of excellent performances. But if we are to progress, we need Leamy to come back into 6 and back into form.

MBTGOG wrote:He did put in a number of excellent performances. But if we are to progress, we need Leamy to come back into 6 and back into form.

We seriously do. Maybe Ryan taking over from O'Callaghan.

Yeah I think so. He should get a shot there anyway.

I genuinely believe that signing the likes of Willem Alberts would be more beneficial to us than signing another centre. Of course, the problem with that is that it assumes that a) Mafi and Barnes never get injured and b) that they continue to improve. Obviously that's not going to happen (the first point at least).

In the short term (i.e. for the upcoming 2011/2012 season) we should be looking to sign someone like De Villiers. Any update on the Toeava rumour?

I didn't know Toeava was a rumour. I would like to see him though.

I have to say though I don't believe he is one I could see Earls moving back to 13:

09 Murray
10 O'Gara
11 Zebo
12 Keatley
13 Earls
14 Murphy
15 Jones

Obviously we'd ideally get a NIQ player into that backline by end of next season.

09 Murray
10 O'Gara
11 Zebo
12 Keatley
13 Earls
14 Murphy
15 Jones

You'd have the same problem with that backline. there isn't someone there who is gonna take the ball on and draw defenders in a la, Jauzion, Nonu etc.

Munster need someone to run straight and hard and make space for their other exciting players. IMO anyway

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:09 Murray
10 O'Gara
11 Zebo
12 Keatley
13 Earls
14 Murphy
15 Jones

You'd have the same problem with that backline. there isn't someone there who is gonna take the ball on and draw defenders in a la, Jauzion, Nonu etc.

Munster need someone to run straight and hard and make space for their other exciting players. IMO anyway

I'd agree or else two distributing 10-12 pairing. Maybe Keatley - Hanrahan down the line. But no we need a hard runner in midfield. To create space.

Granted it was on MFans that I read about an offer made to Toeava pending his recovery from the hip injury, so it's just as likely to be complete nonsense as it is true too given the source.

Anyway, I think we're all in agreement in that we need some bulk in the backline, preferably at inside centre. The big big problem for me though is still Jason Holland, and to an extent McGahan.

We need a proper, QUALIFIED backs coach. We also need to take the ball up through the forwards more before spreading it wide. When it works, like against Treviso and Brive, it looks great but the good teams, like Leinster, find it predictable. It's a significant factor in the lack of performance of our backline IMO - namely lack of space.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:09 Murray
10 O'Gara
11 Zebo
12 Keatley
13 Earls
14 Murphy
15 Jones

You'd have the same problem with that backline. there isn't someone there who is gonna take the ball on and draw defenders in a la, Jauzion, Nonu etc.

Munster need someone to run straight and hard and make space for their other exciting players. IMO anyway

Yeah that back line will be goin nowhere fast, except sideways and backwards maybe.

Why no Howlett? O'gara and Keatley will not work as a 10-12 combo I don't think and that midfield will never get across the gainline.

The starting point for the Munster backline is keeping last years back 3 which was excellent.

roddersm wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:09 Murray
10 O'Gara
11 Zebo
12 Keatley
13 Earls
14 Murphy
15 Jones

You'd have the same problem with that backline. there isn't someone there who is gonna take the ball on and draw defenders in a la, Jauzion, Nonu etc.

Munster need someone to run straight and hard and make space for their other exciting players. IMO anyway

Yeah that back line will be goin nowhere fast, except sideways and backwards maybe.

Why no Howlett? O'gara and Keatley will not work as a 10-12 combo I don't think and that midfield will never get across the gainline.

The starting point for the Munster backline is keeping last years back 3 which was excellent.

I'm just speculating as by the end of 2012 Howlett will be nearly 34 years old.

Howlett at 34 is still probably your best back, certainly better than Murphy.

I'm sure when the time comes Zebo will take his jersey but I wouldn't be looking to change that back 3 right now.

roddersm wrote:Howlett at 34 is still probably your best back, certainly better than Murphy.

I'm sure when the time comes Zebo will take his jersey but I wouldn't be looking to change that back 3 right now.

Nor I at all. Certainly not now. A lot can change in a year. Murphy I feel will have a better year next year but he's more a guy to finish off a move than instigate a back line counter.

Actually I tell you what stag I think Howlett is playing as well as ever. The way he looks now he could be going strong for another couple of seasons. He's a phenomanal player, easily one of the best wingers in Europe still.

Do you think he may even play another season after this one for Munster?

roddersm wrote:Do you think he may even play another season after this one for Munster?

I suspect he might. He seems very comfortable here. Interesting if Munster keep him. NIQ places are dropping to 4NIQ + 1 Project. If we have Denis Hurley, Simon Zebo, Johne Murphy, Keith Earls, Danny Barnes and Scott Deasy wing becomes a place we need less cover.

ROG-Keatly could work I think but your 13 would need to be a Mortlock/AACooper/Basteraud kinda player.

There are better combo's also than that

For what its worth the Munster squad:

Loosehead Prop: Darragh Hurley, Marcus Horan, Wian du Preez

Hooker: Sean Henry, Mike Sherry, Jerry Flannery, Damien Varley, Denis Fogarty

Tighthead Prop: Peter Borlase, BJ Botha, John Hayes, Stephen Archer

Second Row: Donnacha O'Callaghan, Mick O'Driscoll, Ian Nagle, Donnacha Ryan, Paul O'Connell, Dave Foley

Flanker: Billy Holland, David Wallace, Niall Ronan, Tommy O'Donnell, Peter O'Mahony

Number 8: James Coughlan, Paddy Butler, Denis Leamy

Scrumhalf: Tomas O'Leary, Duncan Williams, Peter Stringer, Conor Murray

Flyhalf: Declan Cusack, Ian Keatley, Ronan O'Gara

Centre: Ivan Dineen, Lifeimi Mafi, Danny Barnes, Tom Gleeson

Winger: Johny Murphy, Simon Zebo, Keith Earls, Doug Howlett

Fullback: Sean Scanlon, Felix Jones, Denis Hurley, Scott Deasy

red_stag wrote:For what its worth the Munster squad:

Loosehead Prop: Darragh Hurley, Marcus Horan, Wian du Preez

Hooker: Sean Henry, Mike Sherry, Jerry Flannery, Damien Varley, Denis Fogarty

Tighthead Prop: Peter Borlase, BJ Botha, John Hayes, Stephen Archer

Second Row: Donnacha O'Callaghan, Mick O'Driscoll, Ian Nagle, Donnacha Ryan, Paul O'Connell, Dave Foley

Flanker: Billy Holland, David Wallace, Niall Ronan, Tommy O'Donnell, Peter O'Mahony

Number 8: James Coughlan, Paddy Butler, Denis Leamy

Scrumhalf: Tomas O'Leary, Duncan Williams, Peter Stringer, Conor Murray

Flyhalf: Declan Cusack, Ian Keatley, Ronan O'Gara

Centre: Ivan Dineen, Lifeimi Mafi, Danny Barnes, Tom Gleeson

Winger: Johny Murphy, Simon Zebo, Keith Earls, Doug Howlett

Fullback: Sean Scanlon, Felix Jones, Denis Hurley, Scott Deasy

you have probably heard already stag but hayes hasnt been selected in the squad for next year

Caoimhin he is there for some of the season. Centres look very weak don't they

Yikes centre does look weak. Guess you could add keatly in there too though adn possibly an NIQ

Backrow has looked healthier too.

Scrumhalf is good however.

Yes we do have NIQ spot remaining and I agree entirely about backrow. We have an abundance of hookers though.

Yeah and second rows. You have 7 second row spots but 4 centre! Christ! Well realistically you will be spending money on a centre of some sort. That means you have to get you backrow together with the players you got.

What ever happened to Niall Ronan being a good player?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:What ever happened to Niall Ronan being a good player?

He never was

I thought he was ok for a while. Gave away a lot of penalties though

Chances of Ryan being moved to a starting backrower???

Pete - he is a starting backrow I'd say. He started a lot of must win games at Leamy expenses.

If Flannery can regain fitness and form he could be a huge help in bringing back power and go forward momentum to the pack

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:If Flannery can regain fitness and form he could be a huge help in bringing back power and go forward momentum to the pack

I suspect he won't not at aged 33.

red_stag wrote:Pete - he is a starting backrow I'd say. He started a lot of must win games at Leamy expenses.

I think a lot of that was experimentation in prep for next year, so I wouldn't read too much into it. McGahan needed to know if Ryan was good enough to replace Alan Quinlan and be able to start biggish games / Heineken Cup games at 6. Remember, Quinlan was a fairly useful lineout option as well which we were missing this year when he was injured.

McGahan also tried putting Coughlan at 6 for a while (and had Leamy at 8) which didn't work out in fairly biggish games.

Sin, the ML final wasn't a preparation for next year.

I have to say I'd prefer to see Ryan at lock. That would be my desire but mainly based on the fact I think he will play there for ireland with Tuohy when POC, DOC and Cullen retire

I'd hope he takes O'Callaghans spot by the end of next year. For me we NEED either O'Donnell or O'Mahony to step up this season.

red_stag wrote:Sin, the ML final wasn't a preparation for next year.

No it wasn't - but if you didn't think he was up to that game, you wouldn't think he'd be up to it next year. Obviously they reckoned he was up to it, so there wasn't a great risk. The fact that he is a lineout option is a massive plus, particularly when the opposition have someone like Leo Cullen who is good at robbing ball.

Sin é wrote:The fact that he is a lineout option is a massive plus, particularly when the opposition have someone like Leo Cullen who is good at robbing ball.

red_stag wrote:Sin, the ML final wasn't a preparation for next year.

red_stag wrote:I'd hope he takes O'Callaghans spot by the end of next year. For me we NEED either O'Donnell or O'Mahony to step up this season.

I don't understand that comment. Basically, you want DOC to fail!

No I want a younger promising player to step up a level. Why would I want O'Callaghan to fail?

This is complete stereotyping I guess but I always thought of POC as the offensive ballcarrier, great in the air kinda player while DOC was not as prominent in the lineout and a bit more of a grafter, tackling and rucking all day while touching very little ball.

Huge generalisations there but I think that's there general style. I think both are important also.

I was forsee-ing Ryan taking over POC and Tuohy taking over DOC

red_stag wrote:No I want a younger promising player to step up a level. Why would I want O'Callaghan to fail?

Someone has to give way for the younger ones to step up (and since DOC recently got a 3 year international contract, its safe to say he is in Ireland's and Munster's plans for the next 3 years).

Not at all Sin. rob Kearney just got a nice healthy long contract at Leinster and he doesn't look like winning the 15 jersey off Nacewa any time soon who is there til 2014.

I know that Sin. However I don't want him to be. He is 32 years of age. We need the conveyour belt to keep moving. And not by removing Donners. But by Donnacha Ryan coming along and taking the shirt off his back.

Ryan is 27 years old and is starting to come into form. I sincerely hope he is able to come along and really challenge O'Callaghan, knocking him off his perch slightly and creating real competition for the Munster and Ireland second row.

Yikes didn't realise he was so old! Mental.

How old is Tuohy?

Ryan is 27
Tuohy is 26
Toner is 24
Browne is 23
Nagle is 22

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Not at all Sin. rob Kearney just got a nice healthy long contract at Leinster and he doesn't look like winning the 15 jersey off Nacewa any time soon who is there til 2014.

Wait and see what happens when they are both fit. If you think the IRFU will be happy to pay Kearney's wages so that he can warm the bench for Nacewa, you are deluded.

The IRFU might be happy though if Kearney gets picked on the wing - one thing is certain, he will get games if the IRFU are paying his wages.


Re Tuohy - isn't he a bit short at 6'5" for an international lock. Most of them are 6'6" at least. Bakkies Botha is 6'7.5"?

[quote="Sin é"]

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
The IRFU might be happy though if Kearney gets picked on the wing - one thing is certain, he will get games if the IRFU are paying his wages.

That is the stupidest thing I have heard all day. Clearly there are too many players whom are paid by the IRFU to get on the pitch. Think of all the Leisnter back 3 players or backrow players. Some of them don't even make the bench but the IRFU have paid there wages.

Also the whole point that the IRFU ordered certain players to play in certain positions (Wallace at 10, Fitz at 15) was due to the RWC and wanting to have players ready for it and to have options.

Why would they do that with the next world cup four years away? They wouldn't bother doing that for a six nations to the same extent unless there was no other alternative.

SinE, I know IRFU will or should or might play their contracted players.

My point is merely that I would like to see a player in his late 20s be able to step up and challenge older players. O'Callaghan will be 35 in 3 years time. We need challengers now.

[quote="pete (buachaill on eirne)"]

Sin é wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
The IRFU might be happy though if Kearney gets picked on the wing - one thing is certain, he will get games if the IRFU are paying his wages.

That is the stupidest thing I have heard all day. Clearly there are too many players whom are paid by the IRFU to get on the pitch. Think of all the Leisnter back 3 players or backrow players. Some of them don't even make the bench but the IRFU have paid there wages.

Also the whole point that the IRFU ordered certain players to play in certain positions (Wallace at 10, Fitz at 15) was due to the RWC and wanting to have players ready for it and to have options.

Why would they do that with the next world cup four years away? They wouldn't bother doing that for a six nations to the same extent unless there was no other alternative.

We're talking about central (international) contracts. The players who have them in the outside backs are BOD, Luke & Kearney - funny the only people who don't think Luke should be dropped is the Leinster management. Anyway, there is a difference between a NIQ player starting ahead of an Irish qualified player. Someone like Andrew Conway winning the fullback slot from Kearney would be available to Ireland for selection is different to Nacewa not being available.