Irish Weakness'

by caoimhincentre Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:52 pm

We have seen a number of articles lately that have talked about Ireland's strenghts and how we can beat teams (esp Australia) in the world cup.

If your team was playing Ireland what area of the Irish team would you be targeting.
What is the best way to beat Ireland

by Rava Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:56 pm

From an Irish perspective, I would have to say our lineout hasn't been the most dominant during the past two seasons. The absence of a good third jumper has made us predictable and when we are put under pressure the thrower (mainly Best) has struggled.

So I would target the Lineout.

by red_stag Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:59 pm

The breakdown. Slow our breakdown, make the breakdown sloppy and force Ireland into concedign penalties or living off slow ball.

by geoff998rugby Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:02 pm

No quality SH
Best 15 not known
No cover for Ross
D'Arcy is shakey
POC and BOD are irreplaceable
Poor discipline at the breakdown

That'll do for starters

by girwin90 Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:03 pm

Good point about poor discipline at the breakdown as our six nations was hampered by that. Buckley can cover for Ross but not as effective.

by Smirnoffpriest Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:03 pm

I'd say poor discipline at the breakdown, especially when put under pressure

by ScarletSpiderman Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:03 pm

I would say that the irish weakness is probably the temperment, and their preparation. I believe that if the Irish are lining up against a team that they expect to try and hit it up the middle, flinging the ball out wide early would be a good tactic. As the Irish appeart to do a heap of homework on their opposition, so I think playing an unexpected tactic would catch them on the wrong foot.

Also, as unsportsmanlike as it is, giving them 'afters' and throwing the unnecessary insult at them would would probably lead to their tempers fraying a bit.

by Sin é Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:05 pm

Rava, I think Flannery & POC's injury and the retirement of the Bull has far more to do with the demise of the lineout than anything else.

Even with the arrival of Mike Ross, our scrum is still very iffy. A lot of this is due to the fact that Healy is still learning his trade and can be very inconsistent.

by Steven_Sharks Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:05 pm

I would target the Irish scrum myself. Healy and Ross aren't up to scratch on the international level against the best. Only top nation who I don't think would easily win the scrum battle would be Australia.

by mickyt Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:06 pm

Would agree with alot of Geoff's points apart from BOD being irreplaceable. I don't think we need to replace him directly. he is a once in a generation type player.. Ireland are past the old days where we needed Wood or BOD to drag us through games.

Lineout is a big thing compared to how dominant we were a few years ago.. Is this because we have been figured out. Is it because we haven't had a settled Hooker with other people lingering around.. or is it that we are missing Haye's liffting ability. I would definitely say it's line out though and breakdown although I expect that to be worked on.

Strange as if you asked me this time last year, I would have said SCRUM SCRUM SCRUM

by **rodders** Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:14 pm

The lineout and scrum are both weaknesses and any of the top sides will be able to dominate us here.

by MBTGOG Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:16 pm

What top sides rodders?

by **rodders** Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:20 pm

MBTGOG wrote:What top sides rodders?

France, NZ, SA, England, Wales, Scotland, Argentina, Italy and possibly Australia.

Parity is the most we can hope to get in the set piece against any of these sides in my opinion.

by Thomond Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:21 pm

The scrum and the lineout(Best throwing is poor compared to Flannery). We could also struggle at the breakdown and constantly give away needless penalties. Not knowing who our best scrum half and 15 could also hurt us.

Rodders,our scrum wasn't too bad against France and England.

by MBTGOG Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:24 pm

rodders,

We got parity against Italy, France, Scotland, Wales and England in this 6 Nations, while we did well against Argentina in the Autumn.

by Boyne Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:31 pm

Our scrum is quite weak- our second row pairing is 7th 8th standard in the world...

Our 10 can be flakey

No quality SH

Fading stars in the center

Weakness at FB (well, nobody at FB really)

A coach too slow to give youth a chance

The coaches Munster bias (JOKE!!! joke...)

by MBTGOG Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:32 pm

Boyne,

What second row pairings are ahead of ours?

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:36 pm

I think it's proably discipline and the fact that our lineout in 09 was near unbeatable and is now relatively poor. We don't steal much ball really do we?

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:38 pm

Munsty, this isn't a criticism, but I honestly don't think POC has been the player he was since coming back from injury - now much of that could simply be a timing thing and there's every reason to believe that he will get back to his own high standards, but I just haven't seem them yet. And with POC not quite at full throttle, I don't think you see the best out of DOC either. At their peak, they are right up there, but right now, not so sure

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:40 pm

MBTGOG wrote:Boyne,

What second row pairings are ahead of ours?

More specifically, restricting ourselves to the set piece, I'd have Gray and Kellock as a better lineout pair and an equal scrum pair, and Hines and Gray as a better scrum pairing and an equal lineout duo - have given you something to aim at there!!

by red_stag Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:41 pm

Think thats a fair comment Asbo

We aren't what we used to be in that area really.

by MBTGOG Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:42 pm

I don't know As. I think O'Connell has been very good since he came back but the expectation on him is incredibly high. His performances against England and Leinster were fantastic!

by debaters1 Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:43 pm

Ok, well, a mere 3.5 months ago we certainly more than merely survived against the English scrum.

As for the lineout, yes, definately a weakness for number of reasons as mentioned above but I feel it will be much better than the past 18months come the RWC (obviously others will improve their but I certianly dont hik we'll be a soft touch out of touch.

The breakdown. Once we actually listened to the ref (it only took 4-5 matches before the players got around to doing it....) we stopped conceeding those penalties. Not to mention the awful performance by Dave Pearon against France in that aspect of the game accentuating the problem beyond its actual scale.

Outhalf. He is not a weakness but lesson 101 of pressurising any team is to make the 10 very aware of the oppositions' presence. ROG has been targeted the whoe of his career, Sexton will have to deal with the same. All part of the game!

by **rodders** Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:43 pm

MBTGOG wrote:Boyne,

What second row pairings are ahead of ours?

Cullen and Hines? Very Happy

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:47 pm

Naughty, roddersm, but I like your style laughing

by mickyt Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:49 pm

I don't think it's a case of just figuring out the pairings that are better.

The Hooker and Lifter play a big part. would be a combination of players that would highlight who's line outs are better.

by Boyne Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:53 pm

SA, NZ, France, Scotland all have better 2nd row pairings than us.

Its 50-50 with England, Wales and Oz.

POCs importance to the team is massive but as a stand alone 2nd row hes way down the pecking order I think. Donners is too hot / cold.

At this level, if you dont have a class 2nd row pairing (which I dont think we can claim to have right now) you are in trouble.

by dummy_half Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:54 pm

From the outside looking in, I'd also make comment about consistency and motivation. Also, strength in depth (a common theme for the Celtic nations, simply because the player base is not that big)

When you are up for a game (as always seems to be the case against England), you can be a right pain in the arris and look like a very good side with one of the 3 best back row units in the world. However, you also have some pretty poor off-days such as against Italy last 6Ns - disinterested, undisciplined and sloppy. Kind of like the England football team - a bit of a tendency to play to the level of your opponents.

by caoimhincentre Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:55 pm

Boyne wrote:SA, NZ, France, Scotland all have better 2nd row pairings than us.

Its 50-50 with England, Wales and Oz.

POCs importance to the team is massive but as a stand alone 2nd row hes way down the pecking order I think. Donners is too hot / cold.

At this level, if you dont have a class 2nd row pairing (which I dont think we can claim to have right now) you are in trouble.

Disagree with you there Boyne.

The lineout might not be as good as it used to be but i don't think you are giving our 2nd row enough credit. We exactly arent they good enough in our eyes

by MBTGOG Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:56 pm

France have a better second row than us? Are you sure?

by debaters1 Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:58 pm

Sorry, have to disagree re DOC. He has been very consistant at a high level this season. As for POC, gets better with each game back and he was emmense against England and Leinster and in the Scotland game when things were shaky he won a ball on the deck that McCaw would have been proud of. He is probaly now getting back to 100% match fitness.

Which kind of puts into persepctive the task facing Kearney, Fla & G Murphy (and why none of them should be going to NZ unless the back their respective bests' from the get go in the warm up games. RWC's are no place to be chasing fitness of any kind.

by RuggerRadge2611 Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:58 pm

Forwards win games, and I reckon with the exception of the game against England the Irish pack has not been at it's best.

In the 6N Italy's backrow made your life very difficult and the game had to be salvaged by ROG.

Against France lapses in discipline and in defence cost you the game.

Against Wales your backs had very little cutting edge. Furthermore an a try scroing oppertunity was botched at the end.

Against Scotland your backs played better but capitalized from Scotland tackling like human turnstiles. Furthermore Ireland were very lucky to not have someone binned such was the level of skullduggery at the breakdown.

Then England, when somehow you showed the entire 6N what you guys were capable of. A brilliant performance from 1 to 15.

Sean O'Brian is one player who I think was fabulous for Ireland all 6N, he carried well, made good ground and worked hard in defence.

Take all that together and I reckon Ireland's achilies heel is discipline. The Irish loose forwards are really good at slowing the ball down and making the opposition's phases sticky and fragmented, however I can see the Refs at the WC perhaps noticing this and Ireland being punished due to a reputation that might be hard to shift.

by Boyne Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:05 pm

POC is as I said extrememly important to us and rarely loses a ball in contact. But he doesnt get over the gain line any more. Its been 2 years since Ive seen him do it.

Donners has had the season of his life and if he keeps it up he'll do well in the WC.

But- remember the yellow vs Toulon?

There are alot of good 2nd row pairings out there and i simply dont think we have one of the best.

Not enough bulk for a start.

by caoimhincentre Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:11 pm

POC has been making ground for munster since he came back from injury and has proven to be very useful for munster while doing this.

Not enough bulk. It was DOC and Healy who were the most effective in starting Mauls when opposing teams attack. Surely if he lacked bulk he would not be able to do this

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:13 pm

I don't think POC is the ball carrier he once was at all. Maybe he will be.

I'd also love to see our team with a Genia or Pichot type figure. I think we'd see what we are missing quite quickly.

by Rava Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:17 pm

mickyt wrote:I don't think it's a case of just figuring out the pairings that are better.

The Hooker and Lifter play a big part. would be a combination of players that would highlight who's line outs are better.

You are quite right Micky but a dominant POC will go a long way towards giving us an edge. Also if we are going to use Heaslip as the third jumper then we need to have a lot more consistency in our throw to the back of the lineout.
The ball off the back has been a massive weapon for us recently and we have got some tasty scores from it.

by Boyne Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:21 pm

Rava wrote:
mickyt wrote:I don't think it's a case of just figuring out the pairings that are better.

The Hooker and Lifter play a big part. would be a combination of players that would highlight who's line outs are better.

You are quite right Micky but a dominant POC will go a long way towards giving us an edge. Also if we are going to use Heaslip as the third jumper then we need to have a lot more consistency in our throw to the back of the lineout.
The ball off the back has been a massive weapon for us recently and we have got some tasty scores from it.

I agree with that too- but neither of our hookers is a fantastic thrower of the ball either. Chalk that up as another weakness.

by propdavid_london Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:34 pm

The Key to beating any team is the breakdown - challenge agressively at the rucks and mauls, generate quick ball. Win the contacts.

Australia and NZ are the only teams I've seen win games with less than 40% posession.

by Feckless Rogue Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:36 pm

I think POC will be at his best at the World Cup. He hasn't had a draining season. He was injured for much of it but the groin problem is solved now. He got better with every game since he came back. He did look much lighter though. I'm sure he'll be bulking himself up in the gym now and will want plenty of game time in the warmup matches. It'll probably be his last World Cup. Extra motivation as if he needed it. I'm not worried about POC at all. I'm looking forward to seeing him at his best for the first time since '09.

by debaters1 Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:03 pm

To bo honest, I see where people are coming from in respect of POC not being the ball carrier he once was, but id ask all doubters to rewatch the Quins, Ospresy & Leinster games for munster and the Engalnd game for Ireland. He was very effective with ball in hand in those matches, and as said above he was only remerging from his pretty serious injury/illness lay off and then 5 weeks break for the red card.

I think that DOC will keep his current levels up and even raise the bar higher for himself and with POC back at full strength, then all we need is for Heaslip/SOB/Wally/ to offer good decoy jumping and between them take maybe 25% of Lineout ball (whether at 2 4 6 or long throws)

The weakness then centres on the thrower. Best who is solid but unspectacular and when off can be quite shaky. Cronin at times really couldnt hit a barn door with a banjo, be it late throws, over throws or telegraphing where he is going to throw it. Finally Fla, prob the best thrower when fit but unless he absloutely wipes the floor for a full 80 mins with his opposite number in the warm up matches then he shouldnt be on the plane. 2009 was a long time ago and whie unlike Kearney when he has been back over the past 2 years he has retained a certain level of form, I dont think it is right to bring him when others are available who are fit & healthy.

So should Varley miss out for Fla is Deccie's basic question.

by thebandwagonsociety Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:13 pm

Scrum has been inconsistent
We don't have elite level scrum half
Lineout is too inconsistent
Discipline and prone to getting the wrong side of the ref early in games
Aging outside centre in charge of rush defense - risk of quick ball to speedster running around BOD
Problems at fullback under both high ball and as last tackler
Track record of backs trying to force too many passes, knocking on and giving opposition good counterattack ball
Lack of focus for full 80 minutes of the game

Other than that, we're unbeatable. Australia don't stand a chance!

by the-goon Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:16 pm

Discpline and a bit of composure were main ones last season. Look at the 2 games we lost in the 6N, in both games we conceded numerous silly penalities, the poor ref thing doesn't wash with me If he is pinging you for certain stuff legal or otherwise you stop doing it, esp if the opposition has no cutting edge and is 40 from our line. Italy were the only team to really open up our defense (when we were at 14, because of said silly penalities), the rest were an intercept, one missed tackle and the imfamous quick throw.
And in both of those games we (esp France) we had the line at our mercy in the dying minutes and we blew it.

If they were sorted out we would have one a GS (crazy eh?).

But I would still say I am worried about our line-out, our options at scrum-half and our coach's use of the bench (i.e. he barely does).

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:17 pm

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Scrum has been inconsistent
We don't have elite level scrum half
Lineout is too inconsistent
Discipline and prone to getting the wrong side of the ref early in games
Aging outside centre in charge of rush defense - risk of quick ball to speedster running around BOD
Problems at fullback under both high ball and as last tackler
Track record of backs trying to force too many passes, knocking on and giving opposition good counterattack ball
Lack of focus for full 80 minutes of the game

Other than that, we're unbeatable. Australia don't stand a chance!

Agree with all of that

by **rodders** Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:33 pm

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Scrum has been inconsistent
We don't have elite level scrum half
Lineout is too inconsistent
Discipline and prone to getting the wrong side of the ref early in games
Aging outside centre in charge of rush defense - risk of quick ball to speedster running around BOD
Problems at fullback under both high ball and as last tackler
Track record of backs trying to force too many passes, knocking on and giving opposition good counterattack ball
Lack of focus for full 80 minutes of the game

I knew I forgot a few things......

by debaters1 Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:35 pm

So, in short we're phooked. Ah well, lets just hope RWC 2011 turns out better than 2007 so!

by RubyGuby Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:36 pm

"Irish Weakness"

Quick Lineouts :run2:

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:36 pm

We have got great strengths also lads. guinness

by Boyne Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:50 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
thebandwagonsociety wrote:Scrum has been inconsistent
We don't have elite level scrum half
Lineout is too inconsistent
Discipline and prone to getting the wrong side of the ref early in games
Aging outside centre in charge of rush defense - risk of quick ball to speedster running around BOD
Problems at fullback under both high ball and as last tackler
Track record of backs trying to force too many passes, knocking on and giving opposition good counterattack ball
Lack of focus for full 80 minutes of the game

Other than that, we're unbeatable. Australia don't stand a chance!

Agree with all of that

Nobody remember the obvious one. France.

If we are beaten twice by them in August, they might as well not go to NZ. Yes, it will do that much dmage to us.

Ireland vs France in Landsdown is one we must win to have ANY chance.

Lose it and we have NONE.

by Rava Mon Jul 04, 2011 5:12 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:We have got great strengths also lads.

Of course we have: -

Paddy Wallace thumbsup

by Feckless Rogue Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:58 pm

O'Driscolls only weakness is kryptonite.

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