Irish Weakness'

First topic message reminder :

We have seen a number of articles lately that have talked about Ireland's strenghts and how we can beat teams (esp Australia) in the world cup.

If your team was playing Ireland what area of the Irish team would you be targeting.
What is the best way to beat Ireland

IMO it's worth bearing in mind that the hooker only throws in on his own throw! You can't concede easy opposition ball and Ireland's biggest lineout problem is the lack of a third option from a backrow jumper. Compared to other nations they just don't have tall enough backrows. Ferris is the closest but he isn't especially athletic in the air, Heaslip is next, and SOB and Wallace have been tried but none of them can threaten opposition throw.

Our lineout has been weak since the latter stages of 2009 and into 2010. This has been the stage when Flannery began to have injury problems and Hayes was gettign phased out of the team. So has our lineout got worse since their exclusion?

I'd say the two most influential players we've lost with regards to the lineout have been Simon Easterby and John Hayes. Jerry Flannery also, because it's good to have an alternative to come in. Hopefully he's fit for the World Cup and can take up a place on the bench as a guy who can come on if there are problems.

Notch,no offence to Best but his throwing is average. His technique leaves a lot to be desired and we all know he has trouble finding his man.

Actually his throwing is excellent, his technique is excellent and he periodically falls apart under pressure. Then he's awful.

That's why it will be good to have Flannery fit if there are problems.

Wouldn't agree with his technique and can you say his throwing is excellent if he bottles it when he needs to find his man?

Well for a start the problems are wildly exaggerated. I think there have been three games in the last year he's had that problem and it's been disappointing. Scotland, South Africa and Northampton Saints this past season.

My point is that he can throw to a very high standard- the problem (when there is a problem) is nothing to do with technique or ability.

He's unfortunate that his stint in the team has coincided with a decline in the lineout in general. He gets a lot of stick for everything that goes wrong, whether it's his fault or not.

Don't get me wrong Notch, it is not completely Best's fault. I think Hayes' importance to our lineout was underestimated and his ability to do one man lifts is amazing. Ross is a great scrummager but doesn't offer much in the lineout and Healy isn't the greatest lifter either. I think that while Best does have a tendency for shoddy throwing it is more down to the lifting than anything else.

Notch wrote:He gets a lot of stick for everything that goes wrong, whether it's his fault or not.

Ah so does Luke Fitzgerald, Donnacha O'Callaghan, Tomas O'Leary etc. Scapegoating is what we do in Ireland. You should know that better than anyone. Look at the opinions of Irish fans towards Wallace

It's a case of meltdowns. He's had meltdowns in his career. And he always comes back the next game to be fair, but if things go wrong we need to have an experienced guy in 16. I hope Flannery makes it.

And yet, we need Best as a scrummaging hooker, as a ball carrier and we need him in the breakdown. It's a fine balance.

Flannery will need to get his groove back with the throwing as well, bit of an unknown quantity coming back from a long lay-off, but I'm sure he will be able to do that.

Yes Stag, we're worse than the English football fans!

We are really. Wait til McIlroy has his first off day - all the critics will be out. We love to really knock a guy off his perch here.

To be fair I may have given some harsh opinions on Best but you can't deny that he was not as good as Flannery. I like Best a great leader and a good player but I did question his ability and was rightly put in my place.

Notch wrote:I'd say the two most influential players we've lost with regards to the lineout have been Simon Easterby and John Hayes.

I agree. Our lineout isn't anywhere near the force it was. People wrongly put this down to Bests throwing but even on the opposition throws we rarely challenge any more. The rolling mauls that used to be a real strength have gone out the window. I blame Kidney and Smal for the deterioration in our line out. This is a problem with playing O'Brien at 6 too as it leaves us a lineout option short. Ferris or Mcglaughlin at 6 gives us much more balance.

McGlaughlin?? Who's that

I don't see the loss of our lineout as being a problem IF it is sufficiently compensated in other areas of the game. But IMO we haven't seen a trade off.

Notch wrote:It's a case of meltdowns. He's had meltdowns in his career. And he always comes back the next game to be fair, but if things go wrong we need to have an experienced guy in 16. I hope Flannery makes it.

And yet, we need Best as a scrummaging hooker, as a ball carrier and we need him in the breakdown. It's a fine balance.

Flannery will need to get his groove back with the throwing as well, bit of an unknown quantity coming back from a long lay-off, but I'm sure he will be able to do that.

No problems with any aspects of Fla's game when he came back last January from a long layoff. (Unlike his opposite hooker ) There is far more to Fla's game than just being a good thrower.

Apart from perfect throwing into the lineout, Munster's scrum improved when Fla came on.

The chances of Fla going to the world cup are pretty similar to Stephen Ferris, though I think Fla is a bit more advanced in that he is back in full training and was able for the Paul Darbyshire cycle, which would be hard enough on anyone with calf/leg injury problems.

Simon Easterby hasn't played for Ireland for about 3 years and Ireland produced a very dominant display against Victor & Co. for the win over SA in 2009 without him. The starters for that game were Fla, Hayes, POC & DOC.

No one is blaming Best for the demise of the Irish lineout - Paul O'Connell's injury has a lot to do with it as well and the fact that Ireland could have an extra defensive pod as the Bull could lift POC on his own greatly enhanced our lineout then.

red_stag wrote:McGlaughlin?? Who's that