Rocky Marciano

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Following my recent phase of amateur boxing analysis (plenty of content with BT Vision) I've been watching an episode on the highlights of Rocky Marciano's career. The first thing that struck me was his awkward looking pose, the uniquely formed arched back as he thrusted his varied range of myriad punches to his opponent. What also astounded me about him was the stamina and chin of this great fighter, his heart was unbelievable. He was constantly inside to his opponent, always in their face reducing their breathing space, pressurising them with his presence, suffocating them with his multitude of attacks. His defence wasn't great, he'd get hit, but it wasn't too much of a concern for him as he took it and grinded on, throwing punch after punch with a frequency we are not accustomed to with the modern day heavyweight.

For many out there he is NOT the greatest ever fighter, but one of them. One thing I can say about him is that for me, he has had the greatest heart, probably the greatest stamina that I have ever witnessed in boxing - and when your tired, when you feel like your lungs are going to burst and have to soldier on, IMO he probably threw the hardest punch when in that state.

I will be very interested to read your opinions and views on this great fighter. One conclusion I believe we can all reach is that he was a special figher and I would have loved to have seen him fight in my generation - but oh well.

tunes666 wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:What fighters did Marciano face that hit as hard as Wlad?

Archie Moore and Walcott both put him down for a 2 count but hit as hard as WK...

The division has enlarged significantly since Marcianos time. Its not good enough to say Marciano beat bigger men. He did, yes. Sometimes giving away a stone maybe. A check of boxrec informs me that the heaviest opponent he faced was journeyman Bill Wilson who weighed his career heaviest 229 when he faced Marciano (probably fat). But the average size of opposition Marciano faced was 190ish. He simply didnt face large heavyweights in the modern mold.

So you are relying on unknowns to prove he was not as good, even when he fought the best the division had to offer?, and that he did actually beat big guys as well, more importantly doing so with out the extra size having an effect on his ability?

Theres no easy way to dismiss the mammoth size disadvantage Marciano faces. He never once faced anyone of Wlads, style or dimensions. Marciano has a reach similar to Mayweather.

and That's why he would not box people, he would duck and move all night long until he got inside where his smaller arms had more power, even if it meant him losing rounds he would work work and work until the door opened... WK has never faced anyone with the movement of Rocky and punch power... the closest with regard to movement was David Haye who he came no where close to knocking out despite Haye being very negative..

The fighters Marciano faced in his championship reign hold little bearing to how he would fare against Wlad in terms of style

I think Louis was close, also he fought a big guy called Carmine Vingo who was only an inch shorter than WK and was a very promising fighter at the time. the point is when he faced these taller guys with long reach/jab, it did not effect his performance because even 6 foot guys where too big for him and he did not rely on reach at all.

So while you can predict that WK would change that, nothing in Rocky's records suggest you to be right.

Wlad is a whole different set of problems. His jab, his power, his size and his prefered style and assuming he fights Marciano at his peak make him a more formidable challenge.

There is nothing to suggest Rocky could not have got back to his feet if caught by a WK punch.. as he did with other all time hard hitters he faced and who landed.

1. Archie Moore and JJW hit as hard as Wlad? err ok....

2. Marvin Hagler had a granite chin, was only down twice and fought better than Marciano or Wlad. So whats to suggest he doesnt beat them both using you logic of simply refusing to acknowledge weight effect?

3. No he didnt beat anyone remotely as big as Wlad never mind a heavyweight that combined both his size and ability.

4. Rocky was not hard to hit. Moore, Walcott, Charles and Louis had no trouble finding him and finding him often. Haye is a pointless comparison to Marciano and was far harder to hit against Wlad than Marciano would ever be. Namely because he didnt attck.

5. Brilliant, theres nothing in Mayweathers record to suggest he loses to Wlad. Hes fought better opponents, has never been knocked out and is a defensive genius.

You just dont to seem to get that the heavyweight division changes drastically and that those changes are bound to have an impact. Looking at a record wont illustrate the point. Looking at Marcianos record might aswell make him unbeatable then.

manos de piedra wrote:
1. Archie Moore and JJW hit as hard as Wlad? err ok....

Very much, do a little bit of research, Archie Moore is regarded as one of the best punchers in the history of the sport, and actually has the most knock outs of all time.. throw Joe Louis in there as well for his power.

who is the best fighter Wlad has faced? David Haye. And he cam no where near knocking him out and did actually catch Haye with some good shots... while I do rate both Ks I think Boths power is a little over rated and there knock outs come more due to the opposition not being able to make them work very hard.. again because Chisora moved allot and made VK work hard, his power was not as effective, admittedly VK is getting on a bit but it was still relevant.

2. Marvin Hagler had a granite chin, was only down twice and fought better than Marciano or Wlad. So whats to suggest he doesnt beat them both using you logic of simply refusing to acknowledge weight effect?

errr, but he never fought anyone close to a heavyweight let alone beat them with ease like Rocky did, so how can you compare? If he wanted to he could have gone up to Heavyweight?.. no? Rock was. So don't see the point your making. Rocky beat fighters over 15 stone with ease. He beat guys with much longer reach than him with ease... there for he proved that he had the tools to deal with being a smaller heavyweight.

3. No he didnt beat anyone remotely as big as Wlad never mind a heavyweight that combined both his size and ability.

I think you will find he put Carmine Vingo in a coma and ended his career who was only two inches smaller than WK and also knocked out Johnny Shkor who was an inch smaller and he also knocked out.. not the cream of the crop, but still made no differences to his performances.
I think if there was evidence that when he came across a tall or really heavy fighter and found him self struggling more, then you may have a point but thats not the case. Also even guys that where 6.2 or so, still have a sufficient size advantage over him, and it did not count because he knew how to get inside of them, and there is no reason he would not have been good at getting inside of WK either.

4. Rocky was not hard to hit. Moore, Walcott, Charles and Louis had no trouble finding him and finding him often. Haye is a pointless comparison to Marciano and was far harder to hit against Wlad than Marciano would ever be. Namely because he didnt attck.

When a fighter has a very good chin, then his defense is not the first thing they work on... how ever to say he was easy to hit is rubbish, he threw an incredible amount of punches and as we know when you throw punches you can leave your self open.. Take a look at the video i posted which highlights how he would move out of the way. He was much harder to hit than people like to admit and alot of it is down to poor video footage. But boxers he faced used to comment on how hard it was to land clean on him, and when they did, he was on his feet within 2 seconds.

5. Brilliant, theres nothing in Mayweathers record to suggest he loses to Wlad. Hes fought better opponents, has never been knocked out and is a defensive genius.

these are silly points. once you get to a certain weight you have enough power to hurt big guys, just because those guys are a few inches taller it does not mean that power no longer works... but with lower weight classes you can only get so strong, so why on earth would Mayweathers record come into it?, this is why they have weight classes and why the Heavyweight division is unlimited above a certain point. With your logic its a complete abnormality that Haye beat Nikolay Valuev? If we are going to throw styles out of the winder and just go by size. Back then the weight class was different And Rocky trained to face big guys, not welterweights

You just dont to seem to get that the heavyweight division changes drastically and that those changes are bound to have an impact. Looking at a record wont illustrate the point. Looking at Marcianos record might aswell make him unbeatable then.

I do, But the thing is with heavyweight is that the reason its such an exciting division is there is more power used within it. You are saying that a fighter that used his small size and reach in a way that worked as an advantage for him and who beat up big guys in his carear would lose to WK because he was a bit bigger..

I would agree if he faced Lewis, VK, WK, Ali one after another, then its going to be pretty tough!.. And I would have Lewis giving him the fight of his life.. And Ali beating him... But WK I would say would not handle Rocky... VK mmmmmaybe, but I would still fancy Rocky there too.

Sorry Tunes, but Moore and Walcott just didn't hit as hard as Wladimir does, and I can't actually believe you'd argue otherwise. Moore was a fantastic puncher at Light-Heavyweight and a good one at Heavy. Wlad, on the other hand, is the biggest hitter in Heavyweight boxing today and has taken out genuine 220 lb plus men. As for Walcott being a bigger puncher than Wlad, well, the less said about that the better.

Sorry but no Moore and Walcott are not bigger punchers than Wlad. In a pound for pound sense maybe, but in actual power not a chance. Its you who needs to do research and understand that Moore was was operating against middles, light heavyweight and small cruisers heavyweights. His KO ratio against heavyweights is modest and doesnt compare to a big 250lb man routinely knocking out top contenders that weight 235lb on average.

The whole dynamics of the heavyweight division has changed and the average size of a contender has gone from about 190lb in Marcianos era to about 230lb in todays one. A huge weight difference. You say you understand this point but then every other point you make contradicts this supposed understanding.

Marciano fought in an era of light heavyweights and cruiserweights. Even Louis at his best barely tipped current heavyweight limits. The heavyweight division today is quite literally a weight class above what Marciano competed in. Just because its called the heavyweight division does not disguise this point. Marciano literally never beat a top heavyweight contender near their peak that could be considered a heavyweight by Wlads standard. Beating a guy weighing 200lb does not transate to a guy weighing 250lbs.

Again, you dont seem to comprehend the change in the heavyweight division. Marciano was a cruiserweight in todays standard as were pretty much all his championship opponents. This is a constaint which makes drawing the kind of conclusions regarding you are fanciful at best. Its one thing having a great chin against blown up heavyweights and cruisers with modest power by super heavyweight standards. Or being able to wear down physically smaller or weaker opponents. Its quite another thing trying ot do it in todays division against bigger, stronger and arder hitting opposition. He was literally another division to Wlad in todays terms. Unleash Wlad amongst the cruiserweights and light heavyweights and see what happens.

tunes666 wrote:

who is the best fighter Wlad has faced? David Haye. And he cam no where near knocking him out and did actually catch Haye with some good shots...

So what Moore never looked close to knocking Charley Burley out or even down and Burley was a welterweight, are we really going to base a fighters punching ability on one fight, especially one such as the Haye fight against an opponent who utilized particularly negative tactics.

I'm sorry but Moore and Walcott cannot be put in the same bracket of raw punching power as a giant like Wlad. That's nonsense.

I'd say that Rocky is too small and too crude for Wlad in most instances. Wlad to keep the distance and UD Rocky with a few scares. But, Rocky did have an excellent chin and a swarming style could allow him to get inside. If he did I have no doubt that he would have had he power to upset and KO wlad. This is a 70/30 fight in Wlad's favour as far as I can see. Against someone like Lewis or Holmes I'd give Rocky no chance.

Of course Audley would beat Rocky easily....and so would Manny....with weight stipulations.......of course.......whatever that means.

I cant see Wlad having a scare to be honest. He will jab, jab, jab and right cross Rocky to a KO in 10.

azania wrote:I cant see Wlad having a scare to be honest. He will jab, jab, jab and right cross Rocky to a KO in 10.

I think Wlad has a much better chance in this than most here, but to say he would never have a scary moment is a bit OTT, he had one or two against Haye and Marciano is about a million times a better than Haye. However, the key for me is Wlad's discipline. People say Holmes or Bowe or Lewis would be a better bet to beat Marciano than Wlad, I don't agree. All those fighters at one point or another liked to get into a tear up which would play into Marciano's hands. Wlad is content to keep people on the end of his jab/straight right and that is what would give him a chance to win the fight.

The key is Rocky's speed, or lack of it. He wouldn't get close to him. Totally the wrong type of fighter for to give Wlad scary moments. He wouldn't get close. And when he does, expect Wlad to lean on him. Try carrying a 250 carcass.

I think the 666 in Tunes' name is the amount of times he's woke with white gunk in his pants after dreaming about Rocky.

rowley wrote:

tunes666 wrote:

who is the best fighter Wlad has faced? David Haye. And he cam no where near knocking him out and did actually catch Haye with some good shots...

So what Moore never looked close to knocking Charley Burley out or even down and Burley was a welterweight, are we really going to base a fighters punching ability on one fight, especially one such as the Haye fight against an opponent who utilized particularly negative tactics.

I was looking for WK star performance to justify Rocky "having no chance", Rocky knocked out better Heavyweights than WK has.

... Moore has knocked out more people than any boxer in history and was rated in The Ring as no 4 as all time hard punchers, so seems im not the only one who thinks he could punch.... and yes he did carry his power when fighting in the heavyweight division.

He has not knocked out better heavyweights than Wlad.

Moore was a great puncher. P4P one of the hardest. The operative word is P4P. As a HW his punch was average.

manos de piedra wrote: Its you who needs to do research and understand that Moore was was operating against middles, light heavyweight and small cruisers heavyweights. His KO ratio against heavyweights is modest and doesnt compare to a big 250lb man routinely knocking out top contenders that weight 235lb on average.

Actually that's bullsh1t, his knock out ratio carried up to Heavyweight... You don't have to be big to punch hard, just so you know.

Am not contesting Moore can punch, however I also think Jimmy Wilde can punch but I don't think for a split second he punches as hard as Bob Foster and that is a similar weight difference we are talking as between Archie and Wlad.

azania wrote:He has not knocked out better heavyweights than Wlad.

Moore was a great puncher. P4P one of the hardest. The operative word is P4P. As a HW his punch was average.

Nope, his heavyweight average was the same as his light Heavyweight average.

rowley wrote:Am not contesting Moore can punch, however I also think Jimmy Wilde can punch but I don't think for a split second he punches as hard as Bob Foster and that is a similar weight difference we are talking as between Archie and Wlad.

Its easy to have power when you are against a boxer who has no movement... Wlads power is over rated.. He would not have come anywhere near to knocking out someone like Lewis even though probably giving him a good fight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDaw2QFC1Qg

Spoiler:

tunes666 wrote:

rowley wrote:Am not contesting Moore can punch, however I also think Jimmy Wilde can punch but I don't think for a split second he punches as hard as Bob Foster and that is a similar weight difference we are talking as between Archie and Wlad.

Its easy to have power when you are against a boxer who has no movement... Wlads power is over rated.. He would not have come anywhere near to knocking out someone like Lewis even though probably giving him a good fight.

True but Tua wasnt able to knock out Lewis and he is probably one of the hardest hitters ever.

You still dont get the distinction between Marcianos era of mainly light heavyweights and cruiserweights, and Wlads era of huge heavyweights do you?

Wlad is a much bigger man and is knocking out much bigger heavyweights. If you wanted to see the full extent of his power then why not put him into the cruiserweight and light heavyweight divisions which is far closer to the size of the fighters Moore and Marciano faced. Wlad is not allowed into these division because its recognised that he is too big and too strong and would flatten the fighters in it. This alone should be food enough for thought as to why the two era's are so drastically different.

Please tell me, Tunes - who was the most noteworthy Heavyweight that Archie knocked out? Above 175 lb, Archie was nothing more than serviceable. Knocked out by Patterson (a natural Light-Heavy himself). Marciano mauled him for nine rounds after that early knock down.

I can't think of a single Heavyweight of any real high rank who Moore put away inside the distance, in fact.

To argue that he carried the same whack in his shots at Heavyweight as he did at 175 lb is plainly ridiculous. To argue that he hits harder than Wladimir is even more so.

tunes666 wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDaw2QFC1Qg

Spoiler:

He said almost exactly the same thing about Cooper.

azania wrote:He has not knocked out better heavyweights than Wlad.

Moore was a great puncher. P4P one of the hardest. The operative word is P4P. As a HW his punch was average.

The p4p argument is just a way of saying he isnt anywhere near the top of the list.

I would say that Haye, Audley, Chisora, and most average punching HWs hit as hard as Moore.

Bob Foster was one of the hardest punching LHWs in history, yet his punches bounced of HWs who were not even as large as today's guys.

Mike Spinks KO'd Cooney. But was he a huge punching HW? Of course he wasn't. A peak Holmes took 13 rounds to do what Spinks did in 5.

Not sure I agree Az

Moore was a real hitter and he proved it throughout his career unlike most average punching heavies.

Moore was an exceptional puncher, but I doubt he hits as hard as Wlad. Then again I would say there is a difference between being hit by someone like Moore or Patterson and someone like Wlad or Foreman.

Didn't Chuvalo say something like getting his by Frazier was like being hit by a Corevette going 100mph and getting hit my Foreman as like getting hit by a truck going 50mph? I think that illustrates the potential difference.

haha tunes as clueless as ever...Freddie Roach trained Wlad and said he hit harder than Tyson...Steward said Wladimir was a bigger puncher than Lewis and was the hardest hitting puncher he has ever trained.

Wladimir Klitschko is in the top 10 hardest punchers in heavyweight history...Haye is also on that list, I found it amusing reading the Chisora Haye prediction thread where people thought Chisora would go the distance.

Anyone as easy to hit as Chisora would get knocked out by Haye...People thought Haye's power at heavyweight didn't carry think again...Vitali Klitsckho is next to get knocked out.

As for Marciano against Wlad I think Marciano has a chance...depends on the ref...Wladimir gets away with a lot of holding.

The genius of PBF wrote:haha tunes as clueless as ever...Freddie Roach trained Wlad and said he hit harder than Tyson...Steward said Wladimir was a bigger puncher than Lewis and was the hardest hitting puncher he has ever trained.

Wladimir Klitschko is in the top 10 hardest punchers in heavyweight history...Haye is also on that list, I found it amusing reading the Chisora Haye prediction thread where people thought Chisora would go the distance.

Anyone as easy to hit as Chisora would get knocked out by Haye...People thought Haye's power at heavyweight didn't carry think again...Vitali Klitsckho is next to get knocked out.

As for Marciano against Wlad I think Marciano has a chance...depends on the ref...Wladimir gets away with a lot of holding.

Haye in the top 10 of hardest hitting heavies? Have a day off mate.

Have to confess that I was one of those who doubted that Haye would knock out Chisora, but even so, I'm still bound to say that Haye is in no way, shape or form one of the top ten hardest hitting Heavyweights in history.

Punchers of that incredibly elite standard don't require nine rounds to get rid of a plodding, slightly past his best John Ruiz, despite having all the time in the world to tee off on him. Tough and durable though Ruiz is, I'd say that Tua proved that he could be blitzed quickly by a truly gold standard hitter, which Haye isn't.

Monte Barrett went the distance with Tua twice who Haye stopped in 5 rounds...Comparisons are weak.

Haye had no sparring 4 weeks prior to the fight so his timing was off otherwise Ruiz doesn't make out of the 1st round...2010 version of Ruiz is way more durable than 1996 one.

Chris you underestimate Haye all the time...when he knocks out Vitali he will show power is up there with the best...Dwyer thinks Haye punching power is up there with the elite.

Haye pound for pound hardest puncher in the sport today.

The genius of PBF wrote:haha tunes as clueless as ever...Freddie Roach trained Wlad and said he hit harder than Tyson...Steward said Wladimir was a bigger puncher than Lewis and was the hardest hitting puncher he has ever trained.

ok and you think while he trains him he is going to say his punch power is over rated? ... and you say I'm clueless? lol

Wladimir Klitschko is in the top 10 hardest punchers in heavyweight history...

In your opinion.

Haye is also on that list, I found it amusing reading the Chisora Haye prediction thread where people thought Chisora would go the distance.[/quote] LOL... clueless indeed!..

So when has Haye rendered a Heavy Weight unconscious? How many times did he hit Harrison before the fight was stopped?... how many times did he hit Chisora before he was out of there? .. Rocky was with out a shadow of doubt a harder hitter than Haye.

Anyone as easy to hit as Chisora would get knocked out by Haye...People thought Haye's power at heavyweight didn't carry think again...Vitali Klitsckho is next to get knocked out.

Maybe, but i bet you he does not do it with one punch.

As for Marciano against Wlad I think Marciano has a chance...depends on the ref...Wladimir gets away with a lot of holding.

Marciano would stop him within 8 rounds... Vitali would have been harder for him.

Modern day refs stop it early...First time Haye landed cleanly on Harrison his legs went and he suffered a concussion.

26 wins 24 knockouts I say he hits hard...Freddie Roach has no reason to be bias...yep clueless indeed.

Think Marciano best chance is early...Marciano like Haye is one of the hardest punchers of all time.

The genius of PBF wrote:Monte Barrett went the distance with Tua twice who Haye stopped in 5 rounds...Comparisons are weak.

People simply Poopie too much..

Haye's asset is his speed. Yes he hits hard but the reason he knocks people out is he is a great finisher and once he has hurt someone before they have a chance to recover he had planted another 2 on them.

His one punch power is not as powerful as either Ks or Marcianos.

He knocks people out because he punches hard...Vitali Klitschko harder puncher than Haye?

Vitali doesn't have one punch power!

Is difficult to say how hard Wlad hits, is obviously very hard because even for a guy who is reasonably cautious in his approach it is rare for him not to get a guy out of there so there is obviously a decent dig there. The thing is with Wlad though is he is something we have not really seen before, most previous big hitters such as Frazier, Liston, Foreman, Tyson and shavers have all been at their best around the 200lb to 220lb mark with a lot of experts claiming weight in excess of this did not really add a lot as it tended to be fat which hurt their speed.

However Wlad is one of the first guys who carries a weight of 240 to 250 completely naturally, is obviously huge but is not carrying either an excess of fat or huge Bruno muscles. I don't know enough about the science of these things but I see no reason why given all this there is reason not to think Wlad would not be one of the better hitters the division has seen.

The genius of PBF wrote:Modern day refs stop it early...First time Haye landed cleanly on Harrison his legs went and he suffered a concussion.

I did not say about being concussed any fighter can make another fighter suffer concussion... but its when they are knocked unconscious when you know they have been the victim of extreme power.

Haye Hurt Harrison, and Harrison was conscious enough to try and cover up and hold, but Haye managed to land about about 3 shots on him and he then went down.... he then got back up and Haye landed about another 4 or 5 good shots and the Reff stopped it while Harrison was on his feet...

26 wins 24 knockouts I say he hits hard...Freddie Roach has no reason to be bias...yep clueless indeed.

Yes it is hard, But not as Hard as other fighters... David Haye is far quicker than the Ks and Marciano. Go ahead and point out a time where he is knocked someone unconscious with one punch.

Rowley

Roach and Steward say he is a harder puncher than Tyson and Lewis...Tyson is considered in most people's top 10 hardest punchers of all time so we know Wlad belongs there.

I think because Wladimir is cautious and doesn't throw the right hand till the opponents are broken down by the jab they have this misguided view that he doesn't punch that hard.

Tunes

Well Ruiz was knocked unconscious in 25 seconds by Haye...He woke up after hitting the canvas hard.

The genius of PBF wrote:He knocks people out because he punches hard...Vitali Klitschko harder puncher than Haye?

Vitali doesn't have one punch power!

Actually yes I would agree that both Ks power is a little over rated as they often grind people down with their jab and when they get knocked out its usually because they are worn down by it... But they are both still harder punchers than Haye.

The genius of PBF wrote:Tunes

Well Ruiz was knocked unconscious in 25 seconds by Haye...He woke up after hitting the canvas hard.

LOL, are you deliberately trying to sound silly? He was not unconscious at all, he was hit clean and lost control of his legs and fell over... you see, when a guy gets hit hard it can make him lose his balance. But well done for bringing up the Ruiz fight because he was pounding him for 9 rounds and still could not knock him out.

If you cant understand the concept behind one punch power then go and learn it!

Vitali's power is overrated not Wlad's...Vitali doesn't punch harder than Haye or how did Chisora go the distance with him?

Sosnowski (spelling?) worse than Harrison it took Vitali 9 rounds to get rid...Vitali does not have one punch knockout power.

Again Roach has no need to be biased as he trained both Tyson and Wladimir, why does he claim Wlad to be the harder puncher?

Nope Tunes he was knocked unconscious and woke up after hitting the floor...the same thing happened with Khan against Garcia.

Fighters in the past have been out of it and recovered from it.

The genius of PBF wrote:Nope Tunes he was knocked unconscious and woke up after hitting the floor...the same thing happened with Khan against Garcia.

Fighters in the past have been out of it and recovered from it.

are you for real?

Let me teach you.

now a TKO means that a fighter is deemed not fit to continue fighting due to being hurt... either by a cut, or by having concision,, so on.. Your Ruiz punch was not even a TKO, it was what you call a knock down. A knock down is where a fighter gets hit and is hurt by it enough to fall over, either because it hurt or because it made them dizzy... they are given 10 seconds to get up, they may also be given a standing 8 count where the Reff can assess if they are able to continue, like Khan had against Garcia.

Now, a KO is when a fighter is hit and falls to the ground as in not able to get up due to either being unconscious, or in lots of pain... so on..

When people refer to one punch KO power, it means with one punch they can put a fighter to the floor where it is not able to get to his feet... generaly it is when judging how concussive a guys punches are. If a punch puts a guy down where he appears to be sleeping and cant make the count then this is a KO and if he does not even respond after the count then this VERY much a KO...

David Haye, has KOed 3 fighters all of which were not even Euro level opposition, and in the last 7 years and while a Heavyweight he has not KOed anyone.

Marciano KOed 23 of his opponents including his last ever fight.

Another poster that bases his knowledge on boxrec.

I bet you looked that up on boxrec right?

Khan and Ruiz were knocked unconscious and woke up after hitting the canvas.

I dont need teaching from someone who uses boxrec as their "knowledge".

Yeah, he squashed several tomato cans. No biggie fr a hard punching pub brawler. He still wouldn't get close to Wlad to land anything. Wlad has some of the best footwork in HW history. He reminds me of a boring Hearns in that he is a chin away from being the best ever (or there abouts).

His chin (or lack of) makes him the fighter he is ie boring.

Wlad was exciting pre Steward

The genius of PBF wrote:Wlad was exciting pre Steward

He was. But protecting his chin was made a priority by Steward and Wlad became ultra cautious and went for the kill only when certain he would get the end product. Much like Lewis after being sparked by McCall.

The genius of PBF wrote:Another poster that bases his knowledge on boxrec.

I bet you looked that up on boxrec right?

Khan and Ruiz were knocked unconscious and woke up after hitting the canvas.

I dont need teaching from someone who uses boxrec as their "knowledge".

lol

Your classic, Little Britain eat your heart out..

I used David Hays professional boxing record from his wiki page if it makes a bloomin difference!.. lol

azania wrote:Yeah, he squashed several tomato cans. No biggie fr a hard punching pub brawler. He still wouldn't get close to Wlad to land anything. Wlad has some of the best footwork in HW history. He reminds me of a boring Hearns in that he is a chin away from being the best ever (or there abouts).

His chin (or lack of) makes him the fighter he is ie boring.

I do rate WK as up there in the top 10... but who would you say was his greatest victory? also tell me who he has faced with am IMMINENCE work rate, granite chin and huge power Maricano has... ?

would you have WK beating Tyson out of interest?

Wikipedia that's worse than boxrec

tunes666 wrote:

azania wrote:Yeah, he squashed several tomato cans. No biggie fr a hard punching pub brawler. He still wouldn't get close to Wlad to land anything. Wlad has some of the best footwork in HW history. He reminds me of a boring Hearns in that he is a chin away from being the best ever (or there abouts).

His chin (or lack of) makes him the fighter he is ie boring.

I do rate WK as up there in the top 10... but who would you say was his greatest victory? also tell me who he has faced with am IMMINENCE work rate, granite chin and huge power Maricano has... ?

would you have WK beating Tyson out of interest?

All of that is offset massively by the fact Marciano was, in todays terms, an small to medium cruiserweight who operated in era populated by blown up light heavyweights or by todays terms cruiserweights and very small heavyweights. Wlad is operating in the upper bracket of the biggest heavyweights of all time.

Marvin Hagler ticks the similar boxes as the ones you mention above. But because he was middleweight his claim is easily dismissed on weight grounds. What are weights? Basically arbitary limits chosen. There is a well adhered to principal in boxing that size matters, as neccessatated by the need for different weight classes in the first place, and succinctly summarised as "a good big un beats a good small un". Over time boxing has gone from one weight class to now 17. With this in mind, I think the assumptions one can make about Marciano is limited in relation to a drastically different division in what is essentially a whole new weight class for Marciano. Hes actually going to have to move up a weight in practice and when a fighter does this there will be question marks over how his attributes in his former weight class carry up with him. All the more so when going into a division that he is giving away enormous physical advantages of the kind he hs never had to give away before.

In Marcianos day, there was no need for a cruiserweight division. The average size for a heavyweight contender was about 190 then. Today its about 235 and Wlad at 250lb is large even by those standards. Applying the standards from Marcianos day, anyone who could not make 175lbs would be at the mercy of Wlad. Wlad wallops hard and routinely knocks out top heavyweight contenders in this huge era. In Marcianos time he would effectively be given licence to fight in todays cruiserweight division where I think you would see just how destructive he was and how badly size mismatched many opponents would be.

This has been recognised in the boxing the world and hence the reason for the cruiserweight divisions inception of a 190lb limit which was then increased to 200lb limit. The reasons why are obvious. One can look at Marcianos record and draw whatever conclusions or make whatever asertions one pleases and support them using lies, damned lies and statistics or whatever else. But the fact remains that these are constrained within this era which was drastically different. Marciano would have to pile on 15lbs even to be allowed into the ring with Wlad and would then still be giving away 50lbs. His granite chin, strength and power which served him so well in his own era would naturally suffer as a consequence of fighting far bigger and stronger opponents much like any fighter who moves up weights is likely to.

A sense of perspective is needed when looking at the weight issue. Just because Marciano was classified as a heavyweight in his own era, does not mean it all translates across to Wlads one - because the changes have been significant. We are talking about a smallish cruiserweight (albeit powerful one) up against a super heavyweight. In respect of a head to head, the priciple of size and weight does not vanish just because Marciano and Wlad were considered heavyweights in their own individual era's.