Rocky Marciano

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Following my recent phase of amateur boxing analysis (plenty of content with BT Vision) I've been watching an episode on the highlights of Rocky Marciano's career. The first thing that struck me was his awkward looking pose, the uniquely formed arched back as he thrusted his varied range of myriad punches to his opponent. What also astounded me about him was the stamina and chin of this great fighter, his heart was unbelievable. He was constantly inside to his opponent, always in their face reducing their breathing space, pressurising them with his presence, suffocating them with his multitude of attacks. His defence wasn't great, he'd get hit, but it wasn't too much of a concern for him as he took it and grinded on, throwing punch after punch with a frequency we are not accustomed to with the modern day heavyweight.

For many out there he is NOT the greatest ever fighter, but one of them. One thing I can say about him is that for me, he has had the greatest heart, probably the greatest stamina that I have ever witnessed in boxing - and when your tired, when you feel like your lungs are going to burst and have to soldier on, IMO he probably threw the hardest punch when in that state.

I will be very interested to read your opinions and views on this great fighter. One conclusion I believe we can all reach is that he was a special figher and I would have loved to have seen him fight in my generation - but oh well.

manos de piedra wrote:
All of that is offset massively by the fact Marciano was, in todays terms, an small to medium cruiserweight who operated in era populated by blown up light heavyweights or by todays terms cruiserweights and very small heavyweights. Wlad is operating in the upper bracket of the biggest heavyweights of all time.

In Marcianos day, there was no need for a cruiserweight division. The average size for a heavyweight contender was about 190 then. Today its about 235 and Wlad at 250lb is large even by those standards. Applying the standards from Marcianos day, anyone who could not make 175lbs would be at the mercy of Wlad. Wlad wallops hard and routinely knocks out top heavyweight contenders in this huge era. In Marcianos time he would effectively be given licence to fight in todays cruiserweight division where I think you would see just how destructive he was and how badly size mismatched many opponents would be.

This has been recognised in the boxing the world and hence the reason for the cruiserweight divisions inception of a 190lb limit which was then increased to 200lb limit. The reasons why are obvious. One can look at Marcianos record and draw whatever conclusions or make whatever asertions one pleases and support them using lies, damned lies and statistics or whatever else. But the fact remains that these are constrained within this era which was drastically different. Marciano would have to pile on 15lbs even to be allowed into the ring with Wlad and would then still be giving away 50lbs. His granite chin, strength and power which served him so well in his own era would naturally suffer as a consequence of fighting far bigger and stronger opponents much like any fighter who moves up weights is likely to.

A sense of perspective is needed when looking at the weight issue. Just because Marciano was classified as a heavyweight in his own era, does not mean it all translates across to Wlads one - because the changes have been significant. We are talking about a smallish cruiserweight (albeit powerful one) up against a super heavyweight. In respect of a head to head, the priciple of size and weight does not vanish just because Marciano and Wlad were considered heavyweights in their own individual era's.

If that's what the heavyweight era consisted of back then then its because in that era its what was working best... be it the training that was going on... so on... are you saying big guys did not exist back then?

The heavyweight was only different because it permitted smaller guys to have a go...

just because he lived in a time where there were allot of very tough small guys, does not mean they could not handle anyone bigger... Rocky did beat big guys, but it just so happened the cream of the crop where not huge guys..

1. Yes there were no big, talented heavyweights in Marcianos era. The biggest might have Nino Valdes who was still only about 210lbs and not all that talented anyway. It was a weak era.

2. You keep saying Marciano beat big men but he didnt. Not in the context of the modern heavyweights. During his title reign he fought two fighters that were over 200lbs. One was the mediocre Don Cockell who weighed 205. Prior to that he faced faded Louis who was 213lb. Very small by todays standard and miles off Wlad.

3. You keep maintaining that theres nothing to suggest any of the guys of that era could not handle massive weight disadvantages. There is little to suggest they could either. And common sense should say that when a fighter is faced with an opponent who outweighs him by 60lbs and has 7 inches height and 14 inches reach on him that the honus should be on the small guy to show he copes rather than the assumption that he does because there is nothing to the contrary.

4. The heavyweight division has been getting gradually bigger since Marcianos time. The reason cruiserweight was brought in was because it was deemed no longer fair or sensible for fighters weighing 185 or 190 lbs to have to fight ones weighing 220 plus.

Size makes a huge differeance in boxing, the point seems lost or ignored on you. There are many examples of smaller heavyweights beating larger ones, but for every additional weight given away the talented needed to overcome increases. When its 60lbs it becomes enormous. Not every era will produce a large, skilled heavyweight of gigantic proportions like Wlad or Lewis but when they do their size gives them a massive advantage and forces smaller men to bulk up more.

In the face of stupidity it's good to have someone as calm and reasoned as Manos around.

manos de piedra wrote:

2. You keep saying Marciano beat big men but he didnt. Not in the context of the modern heavyweights.

This is an excellent point, Monte Cox does a few decent articles on Marciano on his website and one of the main criteria he applies to criticise Marciano is he did not truly prove either his power or resilience could translate into beating decent guys above 200lb because he simply did not face them. Him going over to smaller guys such as Walcott and Moore could fairly reasonably be argued to call into question whether his chin would stand up to a whack from guy of 220lbs

manos de piedra wrote:1. Yes there were no big, talented heavyweights in Marcianos era. The biggest might have Nino Valdes who was still only about 210lbs and not all that talented anyway. It was a weak era.

Rubbish there was big heavy heavyweights in that time but they were simply not good enough for world level.. Louis was 213 for a start.. Humphrey Jackson 254.. Bill Wilson 229... Johnny Shkor 220½, they were about but just not as good as the smaller guys.. you cant say an era is too small, when they were small because they were good at beating up big guys.. thats what the era was so you have to give that era credit... they trained as heavyweights and were heavyweights.

2. You keep saying Marciano beat big men but he didnt. Not in the context of the modern heavyweights. During his title reign he fought two fighters that were over 200lbs. One was the mediocre Don Cockell who weighed 205. Prior to that he faced faded Louis who was 213lb. Very small by todays standard and miles off Wlad.

Actually you are wrong.. Humphrey Jackson 254, James Patrick Connolly 213, Bill Hardeman 206½, Artie Donato 201¾, Eldridge Eatman 206¾, Johnny Shkor 220½, Bill Wilson 229½, Joe Louis 213¾,

I make that 8 fighters over 200 who he knocked out.

3. You keep maintaining that theres nothing to suggest any of the guys of that era could not handle massive weight disadvantages. There is little to suggest they could either. And common sense should say that when a fighter is faced with an opponent who outweighs him by 60lbs and has 7 inches height and 14 inches reach on him that the honus should be on the small guy to show he copes rather than the assumption that he does because there is nothing to the contrary.

it depends on the strengths of the smaller guy... Tyson was shorter than Rocky many regard him as an all time great Heavy.. Rocky had ab normal power for his size and over 15 rounds took big punches and still maintained that power, and his defense not nearly as bad as some make out. He was a special fighter and you cant just right him off due to size, he was a small guy who could deal with big guys and trained to beat big guys. We don't see that today because its not in the rules. Yes sinse then there has been some big guys who could have given him more problems but I don't think all of them would have had success.

4. The heavyweight division has been getting gradually bigger since Marcianos time. The reason cruiserweight was brought in was because it was deemed no longer fair or sensible for fighters weighing 185 or 190 lbs to have to fight ones weighing 220 plus.

Yes, probably a good idea as you dont get many marcianos.

Size makes a huge differeance in boxing, the point seems lost or ignored on you. There are many examples of smaller heavyweights beating larger ones, but for every additional weight given away the talented needed to overcome increases. When its 60lbs it becomes enormous. Not every era will produce a large, skilled heavyweight of gigantic proportions like Wlad or Lewis but when they do their size gives them a massive advantage and forces smaller men to bulk up more.

Its also how you use your attributes and how much heart you have.

Your sayings its impossible for a Cweight of LHeavy to be a good heavyweight.. while its not common and not even permitted today, its not impossible

You also do not except the possibility that Rocky him self could have adjusted his physique to suit the era and gain more weight mass.

TheMackemMawler wrote:In the face of stupidity it's good to have someone as calm and reasoned as Manos around.

Stupid people are often too busy seeing others as stupid to see there own stupidity

Come on now, Tunes...

Manos' point, clearly, was that there were no genuinely big Heavyweights around who could fight worth a lick, not that there weren't any full stop. Of course Marciano could knock out a journeyman, who'd likely been cut down several times before, weighing 215 lb or more. Not dissimilar to how Jeff Fenech, a multi-weight champion in the low weight classes, knocked out a 6'5", eighteen stone doorman in Vegas once.

What Marciano never did was stop a top class 'Super Heavyweight.'

Note that I said there were no big, talented heavyweights around. Looking up Marcianos record and pulling out journeymen or club fighters that weighed above 200lbs doesnt add anything to your argument only to look like you are wilfully missing the point.

I already mentioned Louis in my other post, which either you didnt read or yet again chose to ignore the point being made. He was 213lbs and very faded at the time. At his best weight 200lb which is barely a heavyweight by current standards.

The Tyson comparison is silly. Bernard Hopkins is taller than both Tyson and Marciano. He is not noturally bigger than either. Tyson was significantly bigger than Marciano.

Marciano fought in an era which was known as heavyweight, but is actually what we now know as cruiserweight. There is now a whole new division above it in terms of the heavyweight division we know today. Drawing a direct comparison between Marcianos era and now would actually see Marciano better suited being compared against cruiserweights based on size. How he fares in the current heavyweight size and standards is completely unproven just as any cruiserweight who has never stepped would also be largely unproven at the higher weight classes.

I dont think you ever going to either comprehend or accept the point on size, despite it being largely accepted as general rule in boxing which has made weight classes neccessary. But with this as a backdrop, Marcianos style is actually one that doesnt easily transfer into a much larger division populated by much larger men. His style was to stalk and wear down his opponent and relied heavily on punch power, stamina and durability. This style and these attributes often suffer when moving up significantly in weight. Its one think being able physically bully cruiserweights or small heavyweights. When you start giving away big weight advantages and step into a bigger weight class then trying to wear down men that are physically able to match you becomes alot tougher.

Power-wise, I dont actually think there is much of an issue. I would say Marcianos power is sufficient to knock Wlad out if he can land a big shot. But his durbility is far less proven when considered against much bigger and powerful men. Stylewise I think Wlad is a horrible match for him to try and overcome giving all the physical advantage he would have to give up.

You seem to rate Marciano massivley, but actually within in his own record Im far less inclined to do so. I think an elite heavyweight would make easier work of the versions of Charles, Walcott in the first fight and Louis given the stage in their careers they were. Patterson for example was not a particularly elite heavyweight and made short work of Moore. I think if you had any other top ten considered heavyweight around at that point in time, with the exception of Jeffies, they would not have struggled with Walcott or Charles the way Marciano did the first time around to the point which made rematches neccessary.

88Chris05 wrote:Come on now, Tunes...

Manos' point, clearly, was that there were no genuinely big Heavyweights around who could fight worth a lick,

Yes but prior to that my point was ignored that there was big guys around but the little guys were better... How is that not being a valid heavywight of an era...

If there is an era of good little guys... then there you go.

its also worth noting that Rocky did not have to change his style when fighting the big guys... which is relevant.

The size of HWs in 50's or how he would do against Wlad has little bearing on his greatness or ranking IMO, the sport and the size of HWs has changed immeasureably over the years-take Jim Jeffries for example, he makes most peoples top 10, but over 12 rounds with modern day ref and modern day gloves on, I wouldn't fancy his chances against a host of those rated below him, but he ruled in his era and deserves his plaudits as did Rocky, and Rocky had some very special gifts in his stamina, heart, ferocity and sheer will and ability to win, and when you talk to people who grew up in that era you'll rarely hear many that opine that wasn't one of the greats, just as those that grew up in Tysons era will tell you same of him. Rocky is, and always will be a top ten heavyweight great.
And for the record, whilst Wlad undoubtedly holds the advantages I'd never say never when it comes to Marciano..

horizontalhero wrote:The size of HWs in 50's or how he would do against Wlad has little bearing on his greatness or ranking IMO, the sport and the size of HWs has changed immeasureably over the years-take Jim Jeffries for example, he makes most peoples top 10, but over 12 rounds with modern day ref and modern day gloves on, I wouldn't fancy his chances against a host of those rated below him, but he ruled in his era and deserves his plaudits as did Rocky, and Rocky had some very special gifts in his stamina, heart, ferocity and sheer will and ability to win, and when you talk to people who grew up in that era you'll rarely hear many that opine that wasn't one of the greats, just as those that grew up in Tysons era will tell you same of him. Rocky is, and always will be a top ten heavyweight great.
And for the record, whilst Wlad undoubtedly holds the advantages I'd never say never when it comes to Marciano..

Id generally agree, but in head to heads historical ranking or placement can often count for little. Especially in the heavyweight division where there has been drastic changes since Marcianos time.

tunes666 wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:Come on now, Tunes...

Manos' point, clearly, was that there were no genuinely big Heavyweights around who could fight worth a lick,

Yes but prior to that my point was ignored that there was big guys around but the little guys were better... How is that not being a valid heavywight of an era...

If there is an era of good little guys... then there you go.

its also worth noting that Rocky did not have to change his style when fighting the big guys... which is relevant.

Yeas, that was indeed Marcianos era. There were few if any top, large heavyweights. But the point Im trying to illustrate is that if he was facing Wlad, he would be facing a top gigantic heavyweight. Which is something he never had to deal with in his own era and therefore throws up a great many question marks over issues that are often taken for granted with Marciano.