Rocky Marciano

by dynamo Tue 05 Jul 2011, 10:15 am

First topic message reminder :

Following my recent phase of amateur boxing analysis (plenty of content with BT Vision) I've been watching an episode on the highlights of Rocky Marciano's career. The first thing that struck me was his awkward looking pose, the uniquely formed arched back as he thrusted his varied range of myriad punches to his opponent. What also astounded me about him was the stamina and chin of this great fighter, his heart was unbelievable. He was constantly inside to his opponent, always in their face reducing their breathing space, pressurising them with his presence, suffocating them with his multitude of attacks. His defence wasn't great, he'd get hit, but it wasn't too much of a concern for him as he took it and grinded on, throwing punch after punch with a frequency we are not accustomed to with the modern day heavyweight.

For many out there he is NOT the greatest ever fighter, but one of them. One thing I can say about him is that for me, he has had the greatest heart, probably the greatest stamina that I have ever witnessed in boxing - and when your tired, when you feel like your lungs are going to burst and have to soldier on, IMO he probably threw the hardest punch when in that state.

I will be very interested to read your opinions and views on this great fighter. One conclusion I believe we can all reach is that he was a special figher and I would have loved to have seen him fight in my generation - but oh well.

by **Union Cane** Tue 05 Jul 2011, 3:44 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:From the way some people talk about Wlad you'd think he kept every fighter at arms length for the whole 12 rounds which clearly isn't the case

He hasn't fought a succession of 13 stone sub six-footers though has he.

by Imperial Ghosty Tue 05 Jul 2011, 3:49 pm

Your right i'd rather see someone fight the likes of Peter and Thompson rather than slightly past it former champions like Walcott, Louis or Charles any day

by **oxring** Tue 05 Jul 2011, 3:50 pm

Don't forget Ibragimov!

Great fight that. Action filled classic.

by manos de piedra Tue 05 Jul 2011, 3:55 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Bigger than he's faced but I very much doubt he hits that much harder than the likes of Walcott, LaStarza or even an ageing Louis, the problem I have is simply saying that Wlads bigger therefore he wins, he's skillful enough to keep Marciano at bay with a pawing jab. Works against the level of fighter he's faced but wouldn't work against a top class heavyweight, very little variation to his work.

Why? Why assume he doesnt hit as hard or harder? Hes much much bigger than them and has a good KO ratio against physically larger men.He may not unleash the power with regularity but I would bet when it does and he lands its every bit as powerful if not moreso than those guys.

Its not just because Wlad is bigger, but this is a serious advantage. We arent talking a few pounds. We are talking 60 pounds, 7 inches height, about 15 nches reach. These are simply enormous physical advantages that I dont think can be ignored. Its happened very few times in history. Its a combination of style and size.

Essentially to start combat serious weight disadvantages you have to be significantly more skilled or adopt different styles. Marciano for me doesnt have the neccessary equipment to do the job against a much bigger jab and move fighter. His own skillset is relatively limited and his sole chance seems to be just grinding down what is a much bigger man with a style designed to avoid being hit. It isnt that Wlad is unbeatable, I just Marciano is ill equipped and I also think people are taking his durability to too high a level if they think he can continually walk through a powerful jab or heavy rights.

Marciano to me is just ill equipped to deal with a fighter of Wlads size, style and dimensions.

by Imperial Ghosty Tue 05 Jul 2011, 3:56 pm

How silly of me to forget that fight Oxy, would have caused Marciano a whole host of problems would Sultan

Were Wlad the dominating unstoppable force that your making out Manos why does it take him so long to finish of such sub par fighters?

by Eyetoldyouso Tue 05 Jul 2011, 3:57 pm

The George Foreman who obliterated Smokin Joe would have done the same to Marciano.
It's all well and good to say that he would keep coming forward but he never fought anyone so much bigger and heavier than him who could punch. I'm pretty sure he would have stopped coming forward once Big George landed on him or Sonny Liston. IMO Vitali would flatten him as well.

by Imperial Ghosty Tue 05 Jul 2011, 4:00 pm

Now Foreman or Liston probably do stop Marciano in his tracks you won't find me disputing against that, Vitali I imagine takes his best shots at which point his size advantage becomes a factor in winning him a decision, don't see Vitali stopping Marciano.

Wlad wears his opponents down he hasn't got one punch power like Louis did, he's been stopping bigger fighters who simply can't fight, Fitzsimmons stopped a 280lb man in 2 rounds but what gets remembered is that Dunkhorst was useless.

by Mind the windows Tino. Tue 05 Jul 2011, 4:01 pm

Eyetoldyouso wrote:The George Foreman who obliterated Smokin Joe would have done the same to Marciano.
It's all well and good to say that he would keep coming forward but he never fought anyone so much bigger and heavier than him who could punch. I'm pretty sure he would have stopped coming forward once Big George landed on him or Sonny Liston. IMO Vitali would flatten him as well.

We are not talking about him facing Foreman or Liston though? Wladimir Klitschko is nowhere near the fighter these guys are. Strange comment.

In my opinion Vitali wouldn't "flatten" him either.

by manos de piedra Tue 05 Jul 2011, 4:05 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:How silly of me to forget that fight Oxy, would have caused Marciano a whole host of problems would Sultan

Were Wlad the dominating unstoppable force that your making out Manos why does it take him so long to finish of such sub par fighters?

Hes not a finisher but what does that have to do with anything? Its far more relevant to look at his round winning ratio, number of defences and so on. He may not knock Marciano out but who cares if he soundly outboxes him.

You seem to think a fighter can only be as good as the competition they are in. Wlad has shown hes so well above it bar his brother that the divsion cant mount a challenge on him. In which case I would also say the competition hes faced is nowhere near as bad as you suggest. They are unspectacular but nowhere near as bad as the bums you make them out to be. You re using the era to drag Wlad down with it rather than recognise he is head and shoulders above it.

by bhb001 Tue 05 Jul 2011, 4:07 pm

How did this get on to another Klitschko thread?

The Klitschkos can only fight the best around now and so will always suffer from an unfavourable comparison. Having said that, the heart of Marciano would have seen him through for me. Was it is The Old Mongoose (Archie Moore) who said the (and I paraphrase here) that the biggest mistake he made in the fight with Marciano was to knock him down in round 1. It only made him angry.

by Imperial Ghosty Tue 05 Jul 2011, 4:10 pm

Which fighter that Wlad has faced is actually half decent then Manos, Ibragimov, Peter, Chagaev and Haye are the best fighters he's faced which tells the whole story, none of them would have been a champion in any other era except possibly the depression era between Tunney and Louis.

I don't look at the statistics of a fighter to make a judgement on them, Wlad has a fairly lazy jab that's incomparable to that of Liston, Lewis, Holmes, Bowe or Ali, you seem to be wanting to big him up far too much, big brother showed the level they are at when he lost to an ageing overweight, lazy Lewis.

by **Union Cane** Tue 05 Jul 2011, 4:13 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I don't look at the statistics of a fighter to make a judgement on them

Nuff said.

by Imperial Ghosty Tue 05 Jul 2011, 4:16 pm

His KO ratio for one is very misleading
Number of rounds won has to be taken in context of his opposition as has the number of defences

Riddick Bowe statistically doesn't rank near Wlad nor would Tyson but realistically both beat him with comfort

by **88Chris05** Tue 05 Jul 2011, 4:22 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:His KO ratio for one is very misleading
Number of rounds won has to be taken in context of his opposition as has the number of defences

Riddick Bowe statistically doesn't rank near Wlad nor would Tyson but realistically both beat him with comfort

The Bowe of the first two Holyfield fights might. The Bowe who turned up to his other forty-odd fights would be an underdog in my eyes, save perhaps for the impressive performance against Gonzalez. Sorry to digress a little, but as you know I think Bowe, as a fighter who flattered to deceive far too often and gets lauded for a 'prime' which lasted, quite literally, for two or three fights, gets too much of an easy ride sometimes.

Anyway, back on to the issue at hand. I maintain that Marciano is a 65:35 favourite against Wladimir, but I'd certainly stop short of giving Wladimir virtually no chance, which two or three seem to be suggesting.

by Imperial Ghosty Tue 05 Jul 2011, 4:24 pm

Bowe does get lauded a bit too much in general but he at his best dominates Wlad, if we take the Wlad of the Sanders or Brewster fights he stands no chance but at their respective best there is only going to be one winner.

by Mind the windows Tino. Tue 05 Jul 2011, 4:29 pm

Union Cane wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:I don't look at the statistics of a fighter to make a judgement on them

Nuff said.

Union, that is no worse than you claiming it would be a "no contest" between Wlad and Marciano. One thing Marciano would be is a contest for any heavyweight in history. He may lose a few, it is possible he could lose to Wladimir, but it would be a contest that is for sure.

by **Union Cane** Tue 05 Jul 2011, 4:30 pm

Have I upset you at some point Tino, you seem to have it in for me lately...

by Eyetoldyouso Tue 05 Jul 2011, 4:31 pm

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
Eyetoldyouso wrote:The George Foreman who obliterated Smokin Joe would have done the same to Marciano.
It's all well and good to say that he would keep coming forward but he never fought anyone so much bigger and heavier than him who could punch. I'm pretty sure he would have stopped coming forward once Big George landed on him or Sonny Liston. IMO Vitali would flatten him as well.

We are not talking about him facing Foreman or Liston though? Wladimir Klitschko is nowhere near the fighter these guys are. Strange comment.

In my opinion Vitali wouldn't "flatten" him either.

I was only using these as examples of far far bigger men with a punch who would soon stop his constant come forward style. No matter how big your heart is, you simply cannot cope with the terrible beating you would get. Marciano was not the hardest fighter to hit.
In cae you missed it the first time, Marciano never fought anyone who so dominated him, physically.

by Imperial Ghosty Tue 05 Jul 2011, 4:45 pm

Foreman and Liston are bigger men but it's not their size that would be Marciano it's there ability

Listons jab was like a sledgehammer unlike Wlads, I can't see Marciano being as willing to walk through it combine that with the fact Liston has genuine power and a decent inside game it spells trouble for Marciano.

Foreman liked nothing better than a boxer coming to him, wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if he took Marciano out in a few rounds, stylistically very similar to the Frazier fights.

by Mind the windows Tino. Tue 05 Jul 2011, 5:14 pm

No problem Eyetoldyouso. I didn't miss anything and I take your point about Rocky never having fought anyone as physically dominating as Wladimir. The only caveat I would add is that in my opinion, I doubt that Wladimir punched anywhere near as hard as Liston or Foreman and as such I dont feel the comparison is fair on Marciano. Foreman and Liston would undoubtedly stop his forward momentum with more ease than Wladimir would, that is for sure. I still maintain that Marciano would be able to get to Wladimir, albeit shipping some punches on the way in.

Union, you could never upset me, my love. You are far too kindly a soul for that!

Still don't give a monkeys about your prediction league though!

by **Union Cane** Tue 05 Jul 2011, 5:17 pm

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:Still don't give a monkeys about your prediction league though!

I understand mate, you don't want to be shown up for the half-witted clueless fool that you are.

thumbsup

by Mind the windows Tino. Tue 05 Jul 2011, 5:18 pm

Union Cane wrote:
Mind the windows Tino. wrote:Still don't give a monkeys about your prediction league though!

I understand mate, you don't want to be shown up for the half-witted clueless fool that you are.

Good one. You can have that!

by hogey Tue 05 Jul 2011, 10:03 pm

I must need my eyes tested because i am sure i have just read posts with people claiming that a fighter beaten by Ross Puritty and battered by Corrie Sanders and Lamon Brewster could beat an all time great like Rocky Marciano. He doesnt even have the excuse of being a novice for being beaten by 3 men who were not even good enough to hold Rocky's spit bucket. He is just lucky now that the Heavyweight division is terrible and his mum wont let his big brother take away all his titles in any other era he would be nothing more than a fringe contender with a weak jaw. The Rock would have punched those big arms so many times over the first 5 rounds he wouldnt have been able to lift them by the 6th and he would be doing his baby giraffe dance pretty soon after.

by The Galveston Giant Tue 05 Jul 2011, 10:08 pm

hogey wrote:I must need my eyes tested because i am sure i have just read posts with people claiming that a fighter beaten by Ross Puritty and battered by Corrie Sanders and Lamon Brewster could beat an all time great like Rocky Marciano. He doesnt even have the excuse of being a novice for being beaten by 3 men who were not even good enough to hold Rocky's spit bucket. He is just lucky now that the Heavyweight division is terrible and his mum wont let his big brother take away all his titles in any other era he would be nothing more than a fringe contender with a weak jaw. The Rock would have punched those big arms so many times over the first 5 rounds he wouldnt have been able to lift them by the 6th and he would be doing his baby giraffe dance pretty soon after.

I love that dance

by tunes666 Tue 21 Aug 2012, 12:45 am

manos de piedra wrote:A small guy outweighed by 60 pounds with limited movement plodding straight forward into the jab is exactly the kind of fighter I think is tailor made for Wlad.

Marciano is tough but I dont expect him to plow through the jab of a big powerful guy. And he wont be landing any of his punches because he will never find range.

I would be surprised if Marciano even bothered with heavyweight division if he were the last 20 years. Think he would have been a lightheavy/cruiser.

plodding?

You need to watch more of his fights, he did not plod along, he has great movement and his defense was not as bad as some say many of the good fighters that faced him mentioned how hard it was to plant a decent shot on him.. His power was also second to none, LaStarza needed the hospital with a broken arm and blood clots after their second fight.

Rocky was one of the well conditioned and powerful heavyweights of all time of not THE most. His power carried through 15 rounds and when he was on the inside his short arms were his weapon as they aloud him more power and speed... to get in the inside?, he had a granite chin and a work rate that was second to none. He only went down two times and one was when he was caught flush by a very hard hitter in Archie Moore but only needed a 2 count where most would have been in coo coo land and he also went down against another hard hard puncher Walcott againt just taking a couple second count before he was on his feet telling Walcott "I'll get you, you son of a bitch!" .. He was a beast and while its true there were not many 6.5 fighters around him, he still did not struggle against bigger guys. If you watch his fights he was never out muscled on the ropes and pushed around, despite him being small he was a genuine heavyweight.

I think he would have knocked WK out 6th 7th rnd. and would have stopped VK in the deep rounds after having a really hard time with him due to his own punch resistance.

He was also a great role model, professional and sportsman... Along with Lewis and Ali, he is my fav all time Heavyweight.

by Il Gialloblu Tue 21 Aug 2012, 3:39 am

Spoiler:

by TheMackemMawler Tue 21 Aug 2012, 7:09 am

If Marciano fought Wlad today, then, not to be stopped, he would need to resurrect a 1950's referee and his old coach. A modern referee would stop the fight on compassionate grounds, and any coach in their right mind would throw the towel in...... which is fortunate for Marciono because he would take a merciless beating and keep coming forward.

by **88Chris05** Tue 21 Aug 2012, 9:23 am

The problem I have with trying to rank Marciano is that I can never shake this feeling that he was, at least to a certain extent, simply the right man in the right place at the right time.

Standing as unique - even now - as it does, his record on paper does entitle him to a good Heavyweight ranking, but he's not what I'd consider a Heavyweight for all ages and eras. I see him regularly backed to beat many other Heavyweight champions, but it's not a view I can endorse, myself.

I could understand if he had beaten the men he did without much trouble and fuss, but opinion is almost unanimous that the men he fought in his prime years weren't all that special when all things are considered - and yet, they still gave him all he could handle.

La Starza, hardly cut from the elite cloth, was largely thought to have been dreadfully unlucky to lose to Marciano first time out; one newspaper covering the fight from ringside called the decision "exceedingly odd." Walcott (I) is certainly Rocky's best win, but it's still a fight which shows almost as many weaknesses in Marciano's make up as it does strengths. A past his best, Light-Heavyweight Charles, with average form beforehand, kept Marciano largely in check for the full fifteen rounds of their first fight, before coming agnonisingly close to stopping him on cuts in their second.

Of course, Marciano got through these fights and deserves great credit for that, and it's pretty hard to be critical of an undefeated world champion. But when such serviceable, at best, opposition is giving him absolute fits time and again, I find it hard to see him beating the majority of other Heavyweight champions we consider 'great', or even something like it. That's not to mention the fact that there's precious little evidence to suggest that Marciano could replicate such feats against men in the fifteen stone plus bracket.

I think I'd agree with Manos, to be honest. With the increased physical dimensions of today's Heavyweights and weight ins thirty-six hours before the fight, Marciano probably wouldn't go anywhere near Heavyweight now. The aforementioned weigh ins make it conceivable that he'd maybe even have squeezed himself down to Light-Heavyweight, where he'd admittedly be a nightmare for anyone.

by TopHat24/7 Tue 21 Aug 2012, 9:27 am

Chris - why have you got into the habit of repeating your posts?? lol

by **88Chris05** Tue 21 Aug 2012, 9:42 am

Erm....I actually have no bloody idea, TH! Must be developing a habit whereby I'm too dense to realise the difference between the 'quote' and 'edit' buttons. Pesky bleeders who designed this site, putting them right next to each other and everything....

by Boxtthis Tue 21 Aug 2012, 10:06 am

A Rocky Marciano thread?! Where's Az? Can open. Worms everywhere. Cue 14 pages of Az making comments and not reading the replies.

by tunes666 Tue 21 Aug 2012, 1:19 pm

TheMackemMawler wrote:If Marciano fought Wlad today, then, not to be stopped, he would need to resurrect a 1950's referee and his old coach. A modern referee would stop the fight on compassionate grounds, and any coach in their right mind would throw the towel in...... which is fortunate for Marciono because he would take a merciless beating and keep coming forward.

But History tells us otherwise.

I think WK is up in the top ten just about despite him not getting a chance to prove him self to as many really talented fighters.. But there is a reason Rocky won so many fights with such short arms, because he used it as his strength.

Rocky was dropped twice by two punchers who were every bit as hard a puncher as VK, but he got back up both times unhurt and kept steaming them. His defense was not that bad either its just he used movement rather than his guard.. Once he got on WKs inside he would of spanked him..

And if people think size would have beat him then go and Ask Vingo who was an up and coming starlet at 6.5ft who had a huge tare up with Rocky, but was put in a coma and never fought again, almost leading to Rockys early retirement.

by tunes666 Tue 21 Aug 2012, 2:00 pm

88Chris05 wrote:

La Starza, hardly cut from the elite cloth, was largely thought to have been dreadfully unlucky to lose to Marciano first time out; one newspaper covering the fight from ringside called the decision "exceedingly odd."

The first viewed by many to be controversial, but he got his rematch and was knocked out.

Walcott (I) is certainly Rocky's best win, but it's still a fight which shows almost as many weaknesses in Marciano's make up as it does strengths.

Every fighter thats has ever lived has had weaknesses.. being a great fighter is making your strengths out weigh them..

A past his best, Light-Heavyweight Charles, with average form beforehand, kept Marciano largely in check for the full fifteen rounds of their first fight, before coming agnonisingly close to stopping him on cuts in their second.

Yet Rocky won both fights the first on points the second via knock out... and the issue with Rocky being cut underlines what a champ he was. His nose was badly split open and he knew he had to stop Charles and he done that.

For me Rocky was not a boxer who would look to outbox his opponents with flair and tactics. He was a fighter, he would grind them down and look to use his work rate and power, and also his size to be awkward for them coming in at all kinds of angles, so its not a surprise that he was sometimes outboxed and kept at bay, but in the end he done what he set out to do.

Admittedly, today with a 12 rnd max, he may not have had those extra 3 rounds he would benefit from...

That's not to mention the fact that there's precious little evidence to suggest that Marciano could replicate such feats against men in the fifteen stone plus bracket.

He knocked out Joe Louis in 8 rounds. Admittedly Joe had come out of retirement but was still winning fights and in good shape. So I would say that's at least evidence he could hold his own in the 15stn mark... as well as beating a good few over 15 stone on his way to being champ. if there was no 15 stone guys reaching the top then it means there were better guys who weighed less..

I think I'd agree with Manos, to be honest. With the increased physical dimensions of today's Heavyweights and weight ins thirty-six hours before the fight, Marciano probably wouldn't go anywhere near Heavyweight now. The aforementioned weigh ins make it conceivable that he'd maybe even have squeezed himself down to Light-Heavyweight, where he'd admittedly be a nightmare for anyone.

who knows, but Rocky used his size as one of his strengths I think if he was up against Ali and one or two of those guys then I admit he may just find them too much as they were so bit and powerful and quick... But most of the others I still see him braking down.

You could not really smother Rocky as with his short arms and huge power he would bust your body up, so fighters got very little rest.

by JabMachineMK2 Tue 21 Aug 2012, 2:18 pm

tunes666 wrote:
I think WK is up in the top ten just about

Lost my respect there.

by TopHat24/7 Tue 21 Aug 2012, 2:22 pm

If they fought today, with today's rules and refs, what would stop Wlad leaning on and smothering Rocky every time he got inside? Surely the Rock couldn't be half as effective and, whilst his stamina was superb, he's never had to spend half a fight carrying 16 stone on his back.

by **88Chris05** Tue 21 Aug 2012, 2:36 pm

Thanks for the reply, Tunes. Some good points there.

As I said originally, taking apart the record of a legitimate world champion who remained undefeated throughout his whole career is nitpicking, of course. And as you also allude to, there are some meritorious wins on Marciano's ledger, particularly the way he put right any struggles he had first time out with La Starza and Walcott in rematches, which suggests that Rocky was a lot smarter than people sometimes give him credit for.

But for me, the major issue of average opposition, in relative terms, still stands. And moreover, I just can't ignore how full Marciano's hands were with them. Outboxed for twelve rounds by Walcott, troubled badly by a past his best, down on his luck Charles, looking average in that foul-filled clash with Cockell etc. Marciano's record on paper has always impressed me, but his actual performances haven't. Again, I'll stress that's speaking in relative terms.

Substitute one of Ali's wins for an extra loss, and his ranking wouldn't suffer too badly, I imagine. Ditto for Joe Louis, Jack Johnson and a few others. But add a single loss to Marciano's resumé, and I believe he'd seldom feature near the top of any Heavyweight lists like he currently does. I do believe that his famed 49-0, wonderful achievement though it was, gives him a little too much leeway at times, and I just don't see where he picks up many - if any at all - wins against fellow Heavyweight legends.

He's simply too small - and far too vulnerable early on - for a successful run at a Tyson or a Foreman. Ali bedazzles him going away. Holmes jabs and right crosses him to a wide points loss. Dempsey a little too explosive and two-fisted (something Rocky most certainly wasn't) for him more often than not. Liston would have had a field day crowding Rocky and punching down on to his crouching frame. And on we go. Sure, there are a couple he could beat now and then, perhaps even some of the above if he had enough attempts, but on the whole he'd be playing second fiddle, I think.

I guess me saying that makes Marciano the Heavyweight champion who, for want of a better word, overachieved more than any other, and managed to squeeze every last drop out of what relatively small seas of potential he had. I agree that this is true and that this, along with his unique undefeated record, entitles him to stay just inside the top ten Heavies of all time. But in terms of his actual abilities, or how he'd do if dropped in to other eras, I maintain that he struggles.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 21 Aug 2012, 2:45 pm

He beat be Joe Louis' ass

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhuRoqse6gc

by NathanDB10 Tue 21 Aug 2012, 7:35 pm

Marciano is a nailed on top 10 ATG for me, I don't think anyone with the possible exception of Frazier had as much heart and determination or stamina as him. I also rate Wlad a lot higher than most people probably do here, and although he isn't in the top 10, I'd have him closer to 15 than 20.

Having said that I disagree with some people's assertion that his jab isn't all that. IMO it is a great weapon and one of the best in HW history, far better than Lewis' or Bowe's, but perhaps not as good as Liston or Holmes. I think WK has improved ten-fold since Steward came in and would be a tough ask for any HW in history. I think his footwork and agility for such a big guy is exceptional and what really sets him apart is his ability to dictate the range and therefore the pace of fights.

I'd make Marciano a slight favourate due to this 1000% record and natural abilities, but I think WK has the size, power and more importantly the discipline to keep him off to score a UD.

One extra point, people might disagree about Wlad's jab, chin etc, but one thing that can't be argued with in my opinion is that he carries some serious power. Stedward himself has said he is the hardest hitter he has ever known, so a stiff jab and right hand that lands flush would stop any fighter in their tracks for at least long enough for Wlad to get out of range, reset and do the same again.

by Gordy Tue 21 Aug 2012, 7:50 pm

tunes666 wrote:
88Chris05 wrote:

La Starza, hardly cut from the elite cloth, was largely thought to have been dreadfully unlucky to lose to Marciano first time out; one newspaper covering the fight from ringside called the decision "exceedingly odd."
The first viewed by many to be controversial, but he got his rematch and was knocked out.

Walcott (I) is certainly Rocky's best win, but it's still a fight which shows almost as many weaknesses in Marciano's make up as it does strengths.
Every fighter thats has ever lived has had weaknesses.. being a great fighter is making your strengths out weigh them..

A past his best, Light-Heavyweight Charles, with average form beforehand, kept Marciano largely in check for the full fifteen rounds of their first fight, before coming agnonisingly close to stopping him on cuts in their second.
Yet Rocky won both fights the first on points the second via knock out... and the issue with Rocky being cut underlines what a champ he was. His nose was badly split open and he knew he had to stop Charles and he done that.

For me Rocky was not a boxer who would look to outbox his opponents with flair and tactics. He was a fighter, he would grind them down and look to use his work rate and power, and also his size to be awkward for them coming in at all kinds of angles, so its not a surprise that he was sometimes outboxed and kept at bay, but in the end he done what he set out to do.

Admittedly, today with a 12 rnd max, he may not have had those extra 3 rounds he would benefit from...

That's not to mention the fact that there's precious little evidence to suggest that Marciano could replicate such feats against men in the fifteen stone plus bracket.
He knocked out Joe Louis in 8 rounds. Admittedly Joe had come out of retirement but was still winning fights and in good shape. So I would say that's at least evidence he could hold his own in the 15stn mark... as well as beating a good few over 15 stone on his way to being champ. if there was no 15 stone guys reaching the top then it means there were better guys who weighed less..

I think I'd agree with Manos, to be honest. With the increased physical dimensions of today's Heavyweights and weight ins thirty-six hours before the fight, Marciano probably wouldn't go anywhere near Heavyweight now. The aforementioned weigh ins make it conceivable that he'd maybe even have squeezed himself down to Light-Heavyweight, where he'd admittedly be a nightmare for anyone.
who knows, but Rocky used his size as one of his strengths I think if he was up against Ali and one or two of those guys then I admit he may just find them too much as they were so bit and powerful and quick... But most of the others I still see him braking down.

You could not really smother Rocky as with his short arms and huge power he would bust your body up, so fighters got very little rest.

Finally! Someone who understands boxing! Please feel free to repost this to those who think Audley Harrison or any of the current heavyweights would be Marciano. Excellent points!

by TheMackemMawler Tue 21 Aug 2012, 9:11 pm

In the future Wlad will be rated as a top 10. He's quite brilliant. Ranking boxers by the excitement they provide. He wouldn't make the top 500. I wont knock him for that.

Too many on 606 negatively judge heavyweights because they were KO'd. It is heavyweight boxing. Even the greats get caught, are unable to recover, and get spanked. Its heavyweight boxing.

Too many on here also judge a fighter on his record rather than his performances or ability.

Marciano is 180lb fighter, basically a modern light heavyweight (or without cutting a miniscule cruiser). Guys like Pascal weigh in around 185/190 on fight night.

I find Tunes immensely deluded in suggesting that Marciano or any light heavyweight/cruiserweight in the entire history of boxing could possibly win, or even compete, against todays version of the 6ft 6" 250lb Wladimir Klitschko.

Marciano would be out muscled, out thought, out boxed. He couldn't even get close. Wlads foot work is very good.

Rocky highlight reel. A crude crouching slugger, huge heart, huge stanima, huge power for size. Look at his record for christ sakes. Apart from the old guys. He fought nobodies. look at his record, please!! look at his record then look at the highlight reels. He was world champ for 2 or three years and defended his title 5 times or so. So what.
Very very exciting though. I would pay an absolute fortune for a ringside seat. It would be the best most carnal boxing night ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTubzHeYlNA

p.s. "Boring" Wlad would kick his A$$

by Lumbering_Jack Tue 21 Aug 2012, 9:13 pm

For a fighter to be ranked top 10 they cannot get levelled by 3 fighters who in the scheme of things are awful, even without placing too much importance on a boxers record.

Top 10 fights dont get stopped by Ross Purity.

by TheMackemMawler Tue 21 Aug 2012, 9:14 pm

by tunes666 Wed 22 Aug 2012, 12:03 am

TheMackemMawler wrote:
Marciano is 180lb fighter, basically a modern light heavyweight (or without cutting a miniscule cruiser). Guys like Pascal weigh in around 185/190 on fight night.

You cant compare what was expected of a heavyweight back then to now, as back then you would have done what you needed to do among the current crop... today you wont see the same thing as you are not permitted to be a heavyweight unless you are 15 stone... so no one tries to be a heavyweight at a lighter weight.

I find Tunes immensely deluded in suggesting that Marciano or any light heavyweight/cruiserweight in the entire history of boxing could possibly win, or even compete, against todays version of the 6ft 6" 250lb Wladimir Klitschko.

To add to what you see as a "delusion".. I actually rate WK quite highly but think Marciano would stop him every time as WK cant take a punch and Marciano had arguably the hardest punch ever.

Marciano would be out muscled, out thought, out boxed. He couldn't even get close. Wlads foot work is very good.

If you were talking about Lewis then I would give you your dues and admit that Lewis would have been hard hard work for Marciano and sometimes I guess you got to say it depends on who's day it was, But I would say Marciano would have his days with Lewis.. and certainly with WK.

WK had not fought anyone with the same stamina, chin, work rate and power all at once that Marciano had. So I am not sure where you get your certainty from. Marciano took punches from punchers every bit as hard as WK, in fact he was floored by them and still got back up and kept punching.

Its all well saying WK would move and punch and so on, but that's what many fighters did with him but as the fight went on it became harder for them to do that as he did not let up. I think once WK felt Marciano's power he would have tried to smother him and use his weight but Rocky could not be smothered as he possessed allot of power on the inside.. So for me I see WK give Marciano a really tough first 3 or 4 rounds and then from the 5th I fancy Marciano to start hurting him... and I don't think WK has fight in him and you don't beat Marciano with out a huge amount of fight.

You are basically saying he would have lost to WK because WK was bigger which ignores one of the things that made Rocky a great fighter. Using his small size to his advantage... and having the best work rate a heavyweight has ever had.

Rocky highlight reel. A crude crouching slugger, huge heart, huge stanima, huge power for size. Look at his record for christ sakes. Apart from the old guys. He fought nobodies. look at his record, please!! look at his record then look at the highlight reels. He was world champ for 2 or three years and defended his title 5 times or so. So what.
Very very exciting though. I would pay an absolute fortune for a ringside seat. It would be the best most carnal boxing night ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTubzHeYlNA

p.s. "Boring" Wlad would kick his A$$

Old guy does not mean easy guy... the old guys where still winning fights. and saying he fought no bodies is not true as he fought the best there was at the time.. they were not bad fighters by any means.

put it this way, he fought better fighters than WK has or at the very least, as good.

by TheMackemMawler Wed 22 Aug 2012, 12:19 am

Obviously a massive Marciano fan. Fairs dues, he was exciting.

Anyway, I like the way you laid out your responses to each one of my points....even if what you wrote was a load of old tosh! Very Happy

by azania Wed 22 Aug 2012, 12:27 am

Rocky was a crude face first plodding, punching club fighter. Over 100 boxers since his reign would have smashed him to a pulp.

Lucky guy in that he was at a right place and at a right time.

Should I name the 100 who would have smashed the guy?

by tunes666 Wed 22 Aug 2012, 12:37 am

azania wrote:Rocky was a crude face first plodding, punching club fighter. Over 100 boxers since his reign would have smashed him to a pulp.

Lucky guy in that he was at a right place and at a right time.

Should I name the 100 who would have smashed the guy?

If it makes you think its true go for it!...

Wont remove him from the hall of fame though!

by tunes666 Wed 22 Aug 2012, 12:42 am

TheMackemMawler wrote:Obviously a massive Marciano fan. Fairs dues, he was exciting.

Anyway, I like the way you laid out your responses to each one of my points....even if what you wrote was a load of old tosh!

Not sure what tosh, Rocky beat better fighters than WK has faced... been hit by punchers who easily hit as hard and still won.. and WK has never faced anyone with the work rate, power, and chin that Rock possessed all at once..

I see your point about size and weight, And if we were talking VK then I might be inclined to see where your coming from.. but I just think WK could not handle the heat of Rocky even if he was able to outbox him.

by tunes666 Wed 22 Aug 2012, 12:55 am

When people say he had no defense like Azaina is saying.. Well to say a boxer who was Heavy weight champ fighting 49 times and not being stopped once and only floored 2 times, one might thing that there defense was not...eerrr poor.

While Rocky did not use his defense as one of his strengths, why did he need too?, with a granite chin and the best work rate of all time he did not need too... However thats not to say it was poor, He actually used his head and body movement to great effect. And a good few fighters who he faced commented on how hard it was to land clean on him because he was so awkward.

Spoiler:

by manos de piedra Wed 22 Aug 2012, 1:03 am

What fighters did Marciano face that hit as hard as Wlad?

The division has enlarged significantly since Marcianos time. Its not good enough to say Marciano beat bigger men. He did, yes. Sometimes giving away a stone maybe. A check of boxrec informs me that the heaviest opponent he faced was journeyman Bill Wilson who weighed his career heaviest 229 when he faced Marciano (probably fat). But the average size of opposition Marciano faced was 190ish. He simply didnt face large heavyweights in the modern mold.

Theres no easy way to dismiss the mammoth size disadvantage Marciano faces. He never once faced anyone of Wlads, style or dimensions. Marciano has a reach similar to Mayweather. Well over a foot shorter than Wlad who is an excellent technician in controlling distance and possesses a powerful stinging jab and good footwork for a 6'6 250lb man. Essentially all highly favourable attributes for utilising against someone of Marcianos size and style. The difficulty Marciano would have even to get into range against Wlad who can step in and out behind his jab and huge strides would be immense. If he ever did manage to get on the inside he has to deal with a 250lb man leaning on him and pushing him down. Its extremelly difficult for a fighter with a crouch and stalk style to do. Were it a fighter who would stand in front of him and battle him up front like a Dempsey or a Holyfield then he could find success but I cant see a worse style fit than having to follow a far bigger man around the ring who holds every physical advantage over you and possesses a powerful jab.

The fighters Marciano faced in his championship reign hold little bearing to how he would fare against Wlad in terms of style. Most have them had lost their legs in the twilight of their careers they were at and they were small for the most part and no physical match for Marciano. Few of them actually were big hitters by heavyweight standards so lacked the power ultimately to keep Marciano at bay meaning their legs had to work harder. Wlad is a whole different set of problems. His jab, his power, his size and his prefered style and assuming he fights Marciano at his peak make him a more formidable challenge.

by tunes666 Wed 22 Aug 2012, 1:31 am

manos de piedra wrote:What fighters did Marciano face that hit as hard as Wlad?

Archie Moore and Walcott both put him down for a 2 count but hit as hard as WK...

The division has enlarged significantly since Marcianos time. Its not good enough to say Marciano beat bigger men. He did, yes. Sometimes giving away a stone maybe. A check of boxrec informs me that the heaviest opponent he faced was journeyman Bill Wilson who weighed his career heaviest 229 when he faced Marciano (probably fat). But the average size of opposition Marciano faced was 190ish. He simply didnt face large heavyweights in the modern mold.

So you are relying on unknowns to prove he was not as good, even when he fought the best the division had to offer?, and that he did actually beat big guys as well, more importantly doing so with out the extra size having an effect on his ability?

Theres no easy way to dismiss the mammoth size disadvantage Marciano faces. He never once faced anyone of Wlads, style or dimensions. Marciano has a reach similar to Mayweather.

and That's why he would not box people, he would duck and move all night long until he got inside where his smaller arms had more power, even if it meant him losing rounds he would work work and work until the door opened... WK has never faced anyone with the movement of Rocky and punch power... the closest with regard to movement was David Haye who he came no where close to knocking out despite Haye being very negative..

The fighters Marciano faced in his championship reign hold little bearing to how he would fare against Wlad in terms of style

I think Louis was close, also he fought a big guy called Carmine Vingo who was only an inch shorter than WK and was a very promising fighter at the time. the point is when he faced these taller guys with long reach/jab, it did not effect his performance because even 6 foot guys where too big for him and he did not rely on reach at all.

So while you can predict that WK would change that, nothing in Rocky's records suggest you to be right.

Wlad is a whole different set of problems. His jab, his power, his size and his prefered style and assuming he fights Marciano at his peak make him a more formidable challenge.

There is nothing to suggest Rocky could not have got back to his feet if caught by a WK punch.. as he did with other all time hard hitters he faced and who landed.

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