The Redskins just can't help themselves.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/05/redskins-will-have-a-hard-time-trading-mcnabb/

In recent years the Redskins have resembled a trainwreck, crashing into another trainwreck, crashing into another trainwreck etc...

This isn't really news. Its been on the cards since McNabb was benched. The question is will Shanny really hold out in the hope of a trade before week 1, make nice with McNabb (unlikely) or let him go and get on with it. Something tells me it will somewhere in between the 1st and 3rd option. All it will take is a team with a QB crisis in camp or an injury to their starter for offers to come in. If not, they'll let him go when he has little time to fully pick up with another team. Personally, I don't wish ill of McNabb, but his performance last season say to me he's over the hill and anything we can get in return is a good price. We tried to do what the Vikings did and it backfired, so hopefully lesson learnt and we move on. With what is a good question.

Trying to repeat what the Vikes did seemed odd to me at the time. The Vikes at least had a good all round team, with a QB needed to complete the puzzle. The 'Skins last year seemed deficient at most positions. It struck me as an odd move even then. The whole events of last year have really lowered my opinion of Shanahan as a coach

I can't see the Redskins cutting him loose straight away, as skins said there is bound to be a point where a team gets desperate and looks for someone/anyone. It's just a matter of when that point comes, if it doesn't happen too early then he may well end up being cut as it seems fairly obvious he won't get a place on the roster.

GSC - I would argue that we deficient at a few positions, not most. I can't remember many voices saying picking up McNabb was a dumb idea before the season started, and apart from a couple of the OL positions, where were we deficient? Talent wasn't the problem, performance and injuries was.

The biggest issue happened before the season, and that was Fat Al's shenanigans. It upset camp etc. and took focus away from the team. Had that not happened, we may not have been a much better team, but there wouldn't have been half the distraction it caused going into the season.

I'd say you were deficient on the defensive line, cornerback, quarterback and wide receiver.

We were deficient at DT but that was because of lardy throwing his rattle out the pram. When he did play with anything like his capability, he was very effective (that sack against Chicago for example), it was just few and far between. I'd argue Rogersis capable (but isn't as good as he thinks he is), but hall is a good CB - made the pro bowl. QB I will acknowledge, simply because McNabb didn't perform, and that then leads me to WR - with a better performance from the QB, I would bet Moss, Armstrong and Cooley would have had better seasons. There were a number of occasions when one was wide open and McNabb missed/under/over threw them.

Just goes to show how crucial QB is.

I'd say that Hall is extremely overrated. He has one game to thank for his ProBowl appearance. Apart from that, I feel he had a poor season.

I never said he was great, though I'd say he had about 5 or 6 good games. Like any good corner, you notice how good he is by his absence from the commentary etc. I'd say he's in the top 20 CB's currently playing at least.

I still think that it's a big area of need for the Skins, as is WR now that Santana is leaving.

Now maybe, but the GSC was referring to last years team.

Could argue that every team is deficient right now as nobody really knows what they have!

Hall is not good.

Santana Moss was good like 5 years ago, the O-Line was horrendous, Portis was in a preseason battle with the likes of Willie Parker for the starting job. Defensively a good, tight 4-3 defense was being turned into a lightweight 3-4 defense. The only way i saw this going a year ago was spectacular failure.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we had a great team, but many had us down as the worst team in the league and we were better than that. Before the season started, most of the fans I'm in touch with outside here had us at between 6-10 and 8-8 at best. problem now is a year on and we may be a worse team than last year.

Too many people got caught up in the McNabb succeeding with bad WRs earlier in Philly. The season before that he had Jackson, Maclin, Celek, Westbrook, McCoy etc. The year before that swap Curtis for Maclin and Buckhalter for McCoy.

The role Westbrook played for McNabb was immense also. He could pass block like a FB, catch like a WR, and a heavily underrated runner. For me, if he could stay healthy, he was talented enough to be a HoFr. There wasn't a weakness in his game. The spotty health of Westbrook and McNabb's diminishing ability to move, meant the Eagles went to speedy WRs more to take advantage of McNabb's arm.

Another reason I feared for McNabb was the lack of Andy Reid. McNabb has terrible short to intermediate accuracy. Always has. Reid knew this and customised his WCO to feature more deep throws. I wasn't sure if Shanahan would go as far as Reid, nor the Skins have the receivers to implement it.

The whole trade just didn't make any sense to me. To give up a high 2nd, a premium pick, for a QB who you probably wouldn't be able to give a team capable of winning a championship until a few years down the line just didn't make sense to me. Accepting they had inherited a pretty bad roster and gutting it and adding fresh talent in the draft would've made more sense to me. The penny's dropped a year too late I suspect.

An outsiders view:
Being a Chiefs fan I know what it's like to have a D that leaks yards and points, you certainly can't afford to give up 6200 offensive yards and expect to have a winning team.
Pass rush doesn't work, secondary isn't up to it, run D didn't appear too bad last year and I think these numbers get distorted by the losing record and opposition running the clock down in many games.
The real difference I think comes in an offence who used to pound out the ground yards but is now largely ineffective, I think the O-line doesn't work and the coaches failed to address the injury timebomb that is Portis, the fact the Skins drafted so many RB and WR suggests they now know where the weakness (or some of them) lie but it's at QB that they need help and if anyone tells me Rex Grossman is the answer I'll give up with the game.
I'd say the Skins are not far short of a complete rebuilding job and from what I know now I couldn't have them winning more than 5 games next season, unless of course some of the rookies turn out to be guns

Shanahan's ego told him he could turn them into winners now I suspect. An article on PFT had it right, I think all the goodwill he had on arriving last year in DC is all well and gone. After a bright start they descended into the farce that was a staple of the Zorn era.

Agreed that last season was a mess! But having had years of mess with Vinny C messing the front office up it will take us time to turn things around! I was pretty happy with our draft, ignoring QBs in the first round and Mallett was the best thing we could do as I don't buy the hype around Gabbert Ponder and Locker whilst Mallett is a nut case! Our D will be better next year as we are starting to piece together a 3-4 unit.

As far as qb goes we obviously don't think that Grossman or Beck are the answer but we have more holes than a sieve in our roster so we can't expect to have a win now formula, we'll have to accept that it will take a solid FA this year and next along with a good draft next year to even think of a winning season. What is the point in throwing in a QB when our O-line is such a mess! It would have helped McNabb if he wasn't getting smashed every 5 plays or so!

As far as WR goes we should be ok, Armstrong is a good prospect and a very hard worker, Moss has said that he is willing to resign, we didn't resign him before the lockout as we didn't know what the rules would be and didn't want to sign him on a contract that would look extortionate under the new rules. Hankerson is a real gem in the 3rd round.

Cornerback is more of a need if we can't resign Carlos Rogers, who apparently wants massive bucks which I don't think we can afford, I don't buy all the DHall hype but he is a solid player who can be a game changer!

As I have said we are a team with so many needs it is impossible to sort out in one draft and FA but we are finally making steps in the right direction with the draft and also bringing OJ in we have very good safetys.

SkinsFan wrote:
Cornerback is more of a need if we can't resign Carlos Rogers, who apparently wants massive bucks which I don't think we can afford,

I must admit I chuckled at this .

I'd be surprised if the 'Skins don't look hard at Vince Young or another vet. Grossman/Beck is only taking the team one way.

Armstrong at best is a #2 for me, likely a #3; Moss at this point needs to be a #2 WR ideally.

Welcome to the board skinsfan, how did you hear about us?

I remember there was a skinsfan on 606 quite a while back, couple of years maybe ? A very realistic poster from memory

I wouldn't touch Young with a bargepole unless he had a mainly incentive laden contract with more outs than the England cricket team.

Grossman can manage for a season until we finally manage to work out how to draft a franchise QB.

Agreed that Moss is going to start declining, but he's still fast. Armstrong may not develop further in which case he's a #2 (just look at his numbers in one season on a team with a rather anaemic passing offense), but he has the potential to improve and a 10-15% upswing in stats would easily put him in #1 position.

Grizzly wrote:I remember there was a skinsfan on 606 quite a while back, couple of years maybe ? A very realistic poster from memory

Grizz - we have to be realistic now. We've tried pessimism, blind optimism and headinthesandism. Realism is all that's left and it looks a bit bleak right now!

I just don't see him as a #1. #2 deep threat is his ceiling imo. Having McNabb at QB could've helped him, even without him playing well at times. McNabb's deep ball is still one of the best in the league, and that can only help a WR like Armstrong.

Moss is in a similar situation in that he got to fill the DeSean role for McNabb. I wouldn't overpay for him. Save the cash and make a run at Sidney Rice would be a smarter move imo.

Like Young or not, but the guy does win games. Could certainly do worse (Grossman/Beck) for a year

I cant see the Skins holding out for much for McNabb, the main issue is $$$ McNabb will be due a $10million roster bonus anytime soon, and if you are looking to trade him then you are not going to pay him the big $$$, they will hold him until the last possible minute before cutting him.

How many SB's has Young been to?

No Grossman isn't a franchise QB, but he has so much less baggage. After the Fat Al debacle we don;t want another ego like that on the team.

Agree on Moss, but I suspect he'll re-sign and see out his days in DC than go to another team as a declining #2/3.

Grossman being Trent Dilfer'd to the Sb via an elite defense and Jones/Benson doesn't make him a better option. A team imo should always be trying to win, doing anything else just creates a the wrong mentality. Grossman/Beck is a sign of the season being tanked.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/07/report-claims-redskins-wont-cut-haynesworth/

At what point does it become not worth the headaches?

GSC - Trying to win is one thing, but the NFL works different to the EPL. You can't buy a team like you used to be able. You have to rebuild at some stage, or better, be always in a rebuilding frame of mind like the Patriots. Win now hasn't worked for the Skins since the Norv Turner days.

As for Fat Al, I agree he should be cut loose, but not for free unless there's no choice. Like McNabb, he didn't produce last year and in effect refused to adhere to his contract. Why give him his way by letting him go for nothing while he checks his massive bank balance? Its not a headache if you tell the guy what you want him to do and then just fine him/not pay him when he doesn't. I'll lay odds they have told him he can buy his way out of his contract if he wants a quick out, but if not he has two choices - work a trade or play.

Like McNabb, I suspect it will be a holdout for a deal and then if nothing comes in he'll be let go when its too late for him to be effective for another team. I hope he goes to the Eagles and they get the same problems we had with McNabb last year.

Meh we've have his D-Line coach from the Titans who he said he wanted to play for. Add that into him having no choice but to take an incentive laden contract with little guaranteed cash, and the chance to get back at the Redskins twice a yeazr and I'd welcome Fat Al.

Teams rebuild while trying to win still. Nobody wants to lose, and trying not to win just sends the wrong message imo.

How much is Haynesworth going to be getting next year if he was kept on his current contract? Won't whichever team trades for him want to be renegotiating his deal?

I didn't mean that teams don't try to win, I meant that there's the win now approach - grab FA's and take chances on draft picks/trade away your picks - and the lets have a building process approach. Sometimes with the latter you have seasons where you have lower expectations and ownership accepts a losing season in the interest of longer term winning. With the former it rarely works and is often the end of a coaches tenure as a result. The Skins have spent years picking up overpaid and/or washed up FA's and getting nothing in return. We need to focus on youth and the draft as the way to build a team. Because of the state of our roster, that probably means at least 2 years with low expectations. I still want us to win everything we can, but I won't be crying into my cereal if we have 2 8-8 or worse seasons.

Well said, skins.

Take the Bucs and Falcons last season, for example.

Falcons signed Dunta Robinson who was a big FA at the time, and have even now morgaged their draft future on Julio Jones. They are also expected to go after Ray Edwards, big spenders!

The Bucs let players go, were extremely quiet on the FA market and looked to cut spending while building through the draft. Starting Freeman was seen as a gamble and we had rookies all over our team.

Nobody expected us to even reach .500 last season, let alone 10-6.

Yes I remember comments about the same when Jones was drafted. Big risk as there are not many WR's that hit the ground running in their rookie season.

I don't think there's a full scale revolution under way at Redskins park, but the fact we traded down in the draft and didn't go grabbing any old big name QB in the draft says to me that calmer heads may be prevailing at last. I don't think 2011/12 is going to be a season to greatly look forward to, but i hope a better team chemistry will at least be evident. Especially if the fat lump and McNabb are gone.

Sorry for the late reply to the replies from my post!

Alas I am not the same SkinsFan on 606, but I have been following the NFL for the past 5 seasons and have been reading boards such as 606 to see the opinions of others but until now had never got round to/had the time to start posting! I switched over to 606V2 whilst 606 was still up to continue reading some of your stuff and found your draft discussions interesting!

I really doubt we will touch VY, if we were to go for character issues we would have pulled the trigger on Mallett in rounds 2 or 3 of the draft. Unfortunately it will be Rex (if he is resigned) or Beck which will be a horrible season for us!

McNabb will have to be cut at some point at the start of the season because he is due a massive bonus, Haynesworth has been eating up money so we may as well keep him until we get what, or close to what we want for him (apparently a second rounder). Doubt we will get more than a 5th though. Forgive me if I am wrong but I don't think we have to pay Haynesworth so much this year.

As far as WR is concerned, I think people underestimate Armstrong and Moss and if we can get production out of Hankerson (providing they teach him how to catch) and the other 2 wideouts we may have some targets, but it all doesn't matter when we don't have a top qb or an offensive line! Hence why Shanny's running game didn't work so well last year! The Running Back Helu we got looks a superb fit for Mike's system so we may be looking at a more ground based game until we manage to get Mr Luck!