Strength, Depth and from or the Tri Nation Countries.

Reading The article by Boomeranga regarding the Super 15 team selections of the week by Planet Rugby the other day, made me wonder what the depth was in each of the three Tri Nations countries, and also which positions they have sufficient depth.

The list I am providing here is based on the 18 weeks of round robin matches and I took all the players that were selected for positions per week, regardless of how many times they were selected. Some of them were selected for different positions during a specific week, there for I will break it down into: front rows, locks, loose trios, scrumhalves, flyhalves, centers and back three.

South Africa

Front row
Loose head - Mtawarira, Steenkamp, Oosthuizen, Greyling
Hooker – Du Plessis, Smit, Strauss, Fourie
Tight head – Du Plessis, Kruger, Van de Linde, Nel

Locks
Botha, Elstad, Sykes, Van heerden, Mostert
Matfield, Bekker, Van der Merwe, Rossouw

Loose Trio
Alberts, Grobbelaar, Strauss, Daniel, Brussouw, Burger, Johnson, Vermeulen, Spies

Scrum halves
Vermaak, Mcleod, Du Preez, Pretorius

Flyhalves
Grant, Lambie, Ebersohn

Centers
Du Jongh, De Villiers, Olivier
Fourie, Ebersohn, Sadie, Terblanche

Back three
Basson, Benjamin
Pietersen, Ndungane,
Viljoen, Kirchner

What is interesting about the SA depth is that Morne Steyn didn’t get selected once. Where as Steenkamp and Brussouw who played very little rugby, both got selected. Juan Smith due to injury should be on this list, but didn’t play much at all. In the SA back three the pickings are slim, Bryan Habana’s poor form showed by not being picked once.

Australia

Front row
Daley, Alexander, Robinsen
Palotu-Nau, Moore
Kepu

Locks
Chisholm, Wykes, Campbell, Horwill
Sharpe

Loose Trio
Brown, higgenbotham, Lam
Waugh, Pocock, Alcock, Gill, Robinson
Delve, McMalman

Scrum Halves
Genia, Phipps

Flyhalves
O’Connor, Cooper, Stannard

Centers
Coleman, Huxley, McCabe
Horne, Ioane, Carter

Back Three
Mitchell, Morahan, Anesi, Smith
Davies, speight
Beale, Shepherd.

The tight five for Australia is where their major issues will be. A few too many injuries in the front row and there will be huge concerns. In the loose trio, i seem to recall Waugh has retired from international rugby, and Elsom is injured. As long as Australia can keep their forwards injury free they will be able to gain parity against most teams.
In their back line the question is where do guys like O’Connor, McCabe, Ioane and Morohan fit in, as they played different positions during the super 15. I am also not sure about Mitchells injury.

New Zealand

Front Row
Mcintosh, Schwalger, Franks, Crockett
Meaamu, Rutledge, Flynn, Hore
Afoa, Somerville, Franks, King, Afeaki, Faumuina

Locks
Ross, Thrush, Thorn
Bekhuis, Pyle, Williams, Jack

Loose Trio
Thomson, Todd, Kaino, Messam, Hoeata
Waldrom
Read

Scrum Halves
Ellis, Mathewson

Fly Halves
Brown, Carter, Cruden

Centers
SBW, Treeby, Nonu, Mcalister
Fruaen, Kahui, Payne

Back three
Taylor, Poki, sivivatu, Ranger, Guildford
Williams, Masaga, Maitland,Paterson
Dagg, Toeiava, Muliaina, Smith

What is clear to me is that New Zealand has by quite a distance the best depth and form in the tight five. McCaw was not selected, but then he only played 6 games this season. It is however clear that on form, New Zealand does not have too much depth at 7 and 8.

Scrumhalf would be a definite concern as far as depth goes, and apart from Cruden and Carter, there seems to be little else there after.

The backline of New Zealand is simply littered with depth, form and talent.

Delve aint an Aussie.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Delve aint an Aussie.

My apologies then, I didn't track the lineage of each player.

Interesting reading cheers...!

I think that the Kiwis, South Africans and French distinctly have the biggest pool of talent, Australia, Ireland Wales and England sit behind that with Argentina, Scotland, the PIs and Italy in the third tier of wealth of available performers.

biltongbek wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Delve aint an Aussie.

My apologies then, I didn't track the lineage of each player.

No but the fact he has 11 Caps for Wales and was born in Cardiff might have given you a clue, we don't all rely on the residency rule or an unknown grandmother for qualification up here these days.

maestegmafia wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Delve aint an Aussie.

My apologies then, I didn't track the lineage of each player.

No but the fact he has 11 Caps for Wales and was born in Cardiff might have given you a clue, we don't all rely on the residency rule or an unknown grandmother for qualification up here these days.

I said I was sorry.

Well Biltong, you know that the Welsh are staunch on the morality of player poaching, have never played a foreigner EVER in a Welsh side of any kind, let alone an international, and are vehemently defensive about any Welshman being confused with an outsider...so you only have your self to blame.

Biltong - no worries mate. To be honest it goes to show he must be good if your putting him up as a Aussie. He is in the Welsh RWC training squad, but will probably not make the world cup as Gatland doesn't seem to like him as much as others.

Anyway it is fair to say that looking at the depth there is somewhat worrying for the NH nations.

TheGreyGhost wrote:Well Biltong, you know that the Welsh are staunch on the morality of player poaching, have never played a foreigner EVER in a Welsh side of any kind, let alone an international, and are vehemently defensive about any Welshman being confused with an outsider...so you only have your self to blame.

Your Honour, in my defence, I do not know the european players that well, apart from the most notables. There has also been so few europeans playing in the Super rugby competition that i didn't even think about who might not be australian.

I completely forgot that the rebels had overseas players in their squad.

But!

Let this not deflect us from the purpose of the article.

Once again, I apologise to all Welshmen and woman who may have taken exception to the fact that I made a mistake, albeit a minor, small, little, teeny weenie oversight on my part.

TheGreyGhost wrote:Well Biltong, you know that the Welsh are staunch on the morality of player poaching, have never played a foreigner EVER in a Welsh side of any kind, let alone an international, and are vehemently defensive about any Welshman being confused with an outsider...so you only have your self to blame.

Worse we took the Australians to court (i believe) over Jason Jones-Hughes and then noticed he was dire. Seemed like I was being touchy, I guess that is the down side to these boards as it is hard to see the manner in which a comment is meant.

Out of interest how many of those players are also 'jack of all trades' because there seem to be a heap of them that could fit into two or three different shirts with relitive ease.

maestegmafia wrote:Interesting reading cheers...!

I think that the Kiwis, South Africans and French distinctly have the biggest pool of talent, Australia, Ireland, Wales and England sit behind that with Argentina, Scotland, the PIs and Italy in the third tier of wealth of available performers.

maesteg, think that's a wee bit of an exaggeration there, but I don't want to turn this into a debate on NH teams.

biltong, it's an interesting way to look at things - while it does give an interesting perspective on strength in depth for individual positions, it doesn't say too much about units, and I think that is what will be the key for whichever team wins the RWC

well I think the boks have the best 2nd row unit, being biased but I think the wallabies have the better half back unit.

Front rows, hmm, maybe England? The loose forward unit can be spread between the kiwis, boks and ireland I think.

Centres if dry I woudl pick the wallabies, in any of their test combos, in the wet I think the kiwis, though the French in the 6N shpwed some good running lines.

Back 3 no idea.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Interesting reading cheers...!

I think that the Kiwis, South Africans and French distinctly have the biggest pool of talent, Australia, Ireland, Wales and England sit behind that with Argentina, Scotland, the PIs and Italy in the third tier of wealth of available performers.

maesteg, think that's a wee bit of an exaggeration there, but I don't want to turn this into a debate on NH teams.

biltong, it's an interesting way to look at things - while it does give an interesting perspective on strength in depth for individual positions, it doesn't say too much about units, and I think that is what will be the key for whichever team wins the RWC

No I would say Ireland and Wales have the same depth pool as Australia and England, slightly less admittedly but they are smaller countries.

OzT wrote:

Front rows, hmm, maybe England?

England struggle for front rows at the moment, there is little behind Corbisero, Cole, Sheridan and Hartley that anyone would be vaguely worried about.

And three of them are imports!

FFS, do maestegmafia and greyghost have to try and ruin every thread and turn it into one and against another.

Grow up, boys.

but Englans's 1st choice front 3 is a solid, if a bit immobile, unit.

But I think the scottish pack, as a whole, looked good in the 6N and may show a few up inthe WC, just a matter of confidence really, though I think Euan Murray's getting pushed back a bit now, certainly was not so good in the games.

I'm assuming England wil be having Matt Stevens in there

SafeAsMilk wrote:FFS, do maestegmafia and greyghost have to try and ruin every thread and turn it into one and against another.

Grow up, boys.

We are all allowed to have opinions, trying to rubbish those opinions because you disagree with them is not good debate. If you think I am incorrect about something, why don't you explain your case rather than trying to discredit and accuse other posters of ruining a thread...!

maestegmafia wrote:
We are all allowed to have opinions, trying to rubbish those opinions because you disagree with them is not good debate. If you think I am incorrect about something, why don't you explain your case rather than trying to discredit and accuse other posters of ruining a thread...!

Of course everyone is allowed to have opinions. However, on a thread about the Tri Nations you jump in to have a pop at England (as usual) and greyghost does his usual England foreigner/import schtick.

Come on!

SafeAsMilk wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:
We are all allowed to have opinions, trying to rubbish those opinions because you disagree with them is not good debate. If you think I am incorrect about something, why don't you explain your case rather than trying to discredit and accuse other posters of ruining a thread...!

Of course everyone is allowed to have opinions. However, on a thread about the Tri Nations you jump in to have a pop at England (as usual) and greyghost does his usual England foreigner/import schtick.

Come on!

I am not having a pop at England. I am expressing an opinion...!

The debate is on depth in the countries mentioned in the thread. Someone stated they thought England had the strongest front row reserves, I disagree, I think England are reasonably weak compared to most top ten teams.

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/boks-culled-as-21-rested-for-wallabies-clash-20110707-1h3jm.html[/url]

We'll be able to see what depth there is in SA rugby in a few weeks. According to this article only 3 1st choice players will be facing the Wallabies and All Blacks for SA's away Tri-Nations tests.

Biltong, I think Ashley-Cooper is a walk-up starter at 13 for the Aussies despite having a quiet season in a woeful Brumbies side. The problem with the Aussie backline is they're all a bit 'utility' in nature. O'Connor has played a bit at 10,11, and 12. Beale at 10 and 15. Ioane at 11 and 13. We don't really have a specialist 12. They'd likely put O'Connor there but having him next to Quade doesn't fill me with confidence in defense (likewise with Giteau, McCabe etc..)

I would like to see a bit more starch in our backs. While I'm not a big fan of Berrick Barnes he does know how to put a bloke on his backside (and often knocks himself out in the process). Scoring tries is all well and good but if you leak just as many what's the point? Good for the punters I guess.

Interesting. I'm not sure NZ lack depth at open side though. Probably true at the start of the season. I would say the Todd is getting up there, and the younger Braid is coming through. Luke has been injured and is only returning. I think all of those players would be pushing for positions in most international sides. It is possible that none of them will make the side. Obiously MCaw leads the way, but Messam and Thompson are also in the mix.

Biltong, what role do you think Lambie will play this year?

boomeranga wrote:Biltong, what role do you think Lambie will play this year?

Boomeranga, if you look at the form book, it doesn't look good for SA, but then PDV will not take risks with Lambie. He will most likely get a pool match or two and then warm the bench as back up. That's to say if Butch James is not going, which it looks like he will.

Do you agree that would be the right approach for where he is at?

Maybe. But it depends on how the Springboks will play in the RWC. Morne steyn has had a poor year and the question is how good is he on confidence?

I think Butch James is solid defender(if he doesn't tackle high) and a better all round player than Morne, but getting old.

Lambie should have been exposed earlier to preparehim for this world cup. I personally think he is as talented as O'Connor,but look at how many tests O'Connor has under his belt already.

I see the Boks have an ´injury ´ list so the away games first up will see a diluted Boks side. I think P Divvy is taking a leaf out of Jake White´s book and resting his key players. Certainly players like Burger are definitely out but players like Juan Smith who haven´t played in a while are also being carefully managed.

It´s a fine line you have to tread I guess. You don´t want to risk players getting injured who aren´t match fit but you do want some match fitness under their belts before the big show.

I agree that NZ has some problems in halfback, flyhalf and the backrow. Plenty of names in the mix but not as good as who they´d be replacing. But then again I just think that´s an indication of the strength of the incumbents. I hope Slade rather than Cruden gets some 3N game time. He gives me a greater sense of security than Cruden who is capable of a big play but just doesn´t have the kicking reliability yet.

As for Australia, the problem is indeed where to put all that ridiculous backline talent. Does O´Connor take over Giteau to accommodate Ioane on the wing? Does Rocket Davies get a look in with that devastating pace? I agree Oz T that halfback flyhalf combination is the best. So much time playing together really shows. I think the AB scrum is very strong and there are enforcers like the Franks bros and Crockett who can come up with the big tackle and change the momentum of the game in the loose.

As for the Boks, a lot of injuries at the moment and a lot of senipr players with experience. With all these injuries, tradtional strengths like the backrow, second row and halfback are being tested to the limit. To be honest, I don´t think the Boks will mind slipping under the radar this 3N and then saving up the artillery for the RWC. But the question is will this leave them underdone for some potentially big knockout matches?

NZ will be looking to assert its dominance at home this 3N and then experiment more in the away matches. You get the feeling though that as Oz are a confidence side, if they win their home games and get some away wins they´ll be riding sky high in confidence and that´s when they´ll be at their most dangerous.

Also looking if Phil Waugh and Stirling makes the 3N squad... Phil maybe as a backup to Pocock and Stirling, if nothing, to give a bit of steel to the back line. Full of running players but be good to have a stopper as him for the 12 spot.

Depends if Deans want a full running back line, or we risk beefing the line up with an old timer?

Phil on the other hand wil not be a bad backup for Pocock, kind of hoped Smith woudl stil have been around though.

The ARU certainly aren't happy - calling for an investigation into how "injured" those Bok players really are.

Odds are they won't like the impact on crowd numbers when/if NZ rests Carter & McCaw for the final 3N game too