Boxing's Quickest Falls from Grace?

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With Paul Williams' 'win' over the weekend, I was thinking how quickly his stock has fallen in just 18 months.

He went from being hyped as "the most avoided man in boxing" to winning a very close fight against Martinez which many thought he lost and ceertainly lost his title with the fight.

He then won another controversial fight against Cintron, albeit not due to Williams but because Cintron literally took a dive! Although he got the win, it did nothing to boost his legacy or reputation.

Following that, Williams got utterly sparked by Martinez in a rematch.

He then had his comeback fight to send out a message he's back against a carefully picked fighter with only 16 fights to his name, and losses, well losses in every aspect apart from getting the judges decision!

With Williams saying he only has 2/3 fights left (he's only 29) he appears over and I can only see him now getting big fights due to others opting to fight him because they see an easier fight than perceived 18 months ago.

What other fighters have suffered dramatic falls from the top in such a short time?

To be fair Oxy Haye earnt his shot by unifying the cruiserweight title which is more than can be said of a lot of world title challengers

Mayweather imo has suffered a fall from grace, he remains a quality boxer, but never have i seen such vile rants with regards to Pacquiao, etc, respected journalists all called him a flawed human being, i think the Pacquiao rants showed mental cracks.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:To be fair Oxy Haye earnt his shot by unifying the cruiserweight title which is more than can be said of a lot of world title challengers

The trouble is though, he talked his way into a ring with the Klitschko's you don't just move up and fight the best straight away, Adamek never, he waited after originally getting a chance on his trainers advice, but he had a few fights at the weight, Haye was disrespectful, and fought B level opponents at heavy before fighting a real Heavyweight in Wlad. Ruiz is a glorified punchbag, Harrison a bum, Valuev a freakshow and Monte Barrett well the least said the better. I fancied Haye by stoppage, but only because i under-estimated Wlad's chin/defence, i always knew Wlad was the more complete, better fighter. Haye won't make a recovery either imo, his ego is too big to go back to the drawing board, it's also imo worrying for any Hayemaker fan club members that Chris Arreola has fought more times in 7 months than Haye has in 2 1/2 years, i'll leave you with that.

Look at all the other divisions, it happens all the time

Mayweather, Pacquiao, Morales, Khan, Cotto, Corales and many more have all moved up and fought for world titles straight away

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Look at all the other divisions, it happens all the time

Mayweather, Pacquiao, Morales, Khan, Cotto, Corales and many more have all moved up and fought for world titles straight away

Yeah i'll give you that Imperial you do have a point, but that's what i'm saying to you they didn't start bragging and disrespecting people without having a fight at the weight in the way he did, Khan said Kotelnik was the worst world champ which was garbage but hey!. Haye eventually earned the right to fight for the title, on the back of beating poor opponents, who i said in the past he would pay for in the longrun, and got battered. No sympathy from me, i also don't need to hear some do-gooding moral victory searching Haye fans saying he did the best and caught Wlad the most, Peter dropped Wlad 3 times, Haye never once looked like winning that fight. Period

Young_Towzer wrote:Chris Arreola has fought more times in 7 months than Haye has in 2 1/2 years, i'll leave you with that.

And has looked much better for it, has to be said. Good point Towzer.

oxring wrote:

Young_Towzer wrote:Chris Arreola has fought more times in 7 months than Haye has in 2 1/2 years, i'll leave you with that.

And has looked much better for it, has to be said. Good point Towzer.

Did you hear him on saturday ox? he looked a million dollars imo and threw loads of shots, hurt Friday a ton of times, granted a journeyman but then said, my toe's effing killing me haha! and i was as bad as David Haye tonight. See that's the thing with Haye he calls all these so called fat slob heavyweights, Arreola genuinely tried to knock Vitali spark out, and never made excuses, just cried and swore, lol.

Past ones when i thought as well
Curry was never, ever the same after Honeyghan
Eubank wasn't the same after Watson the tragic rematch
Benn wasn't the same after McClellan, also tragic
Honeyghan wasn't the same after Starling smashed him up

I thought it was a shame they banned Arreola for his post-Vitali interview. Nice to see a boxer show so much passion.

He came to win the fight - he threw against Vitali frequently - he tried to win. He didn't stand there and let Vitali tee off. He wasn't as good - but anyone would have told you it was 2 years and about 15 fights too soon for Cris. Good to see him in better shape as well.

What about Kelly Pavlik? His career seems to have gone down hill since losing to B-Hop.

The genius of PBF wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:

The genius of PBF wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:

The genius of PBF wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:

The genius of PBF wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:Haye did throw the big punches though Oxy, and had minor success, but all in all they were too inaccurate and his timing seemed off, so had this been remedied then we may have been looking at a different story. Also, Haye's reluctance to follow up the big overhand rights with say a left to the body (probably because he was so horribly off balance) didn't help his cause.

The bitter Dan Rafael is revelling in Haye's defeat just because Haye snubbed him for a interview.

Not sure he is bitter Haye did a lot of talking and bad mouthed Wlad and his previous opponents. He showed himself to be no better than some of the so called fat American bums he was talking about. He deserves all the stick he gets he was big enough to dish plenty out in the K bro's direction pre fight he's going to need to take it on the chin now.

Read his blogs, always having a pop at Haye...also praises the Klitschkos to high heaven because they sadly give him interviews...Why have a pop at Haye's attitude? If everyone was all gentleman like there would be less interest in the fights.

He makes Frank Warren look less bitter.

Maybe Dan Rafael took it personally when Haye had a go at fat American bums.

I like Rafael I think he's one of the best boxing writers around. Haye had proved nothing at heavyweight and the K bro's demand respect they have dominated the division for nearly a decade.

I think he is the worst my plagarism work on here was inspired by him...read his articles they are mostly off other sites...Haye was the WBA champion beat champions in Ruiz and Valuev.

Haye more than proved his shot...Also Wlad only starting dominating the division since 2006 hardly a decade now isit?

I said they dominated as brothers. Valuev was awful, Ruiz was well past his best which was never that good anyway and his other wins at HW are Fraudley and Monte Barrett.

Even with the brothers they haven't dominated anywhere near a decade...remember Vitali had a 4 year break from 2004.

The same Monte Barrett who dropped David Tua and got robbed of a win after Haye...Valuev was the champ and Ruiz a former champ, not Haye's fault the division is p!ss poor.

Better than the overrated Adamek who couldn't stop the likes of McBride and Grant...went life and death with a poor f@t never has been Arreola.

Haye is the best heavyweight out there outside the Klitschko brothers.

It's an awful division that we can agree on. I'm not an Adamek fan either imo he has less chance against the K bro's than Haye. Wladimir is unbeaten since 2004 and between 2001 and 2004 the only person to beat Vitali was Lewis that's pretty dominant. The odd defeat. They have dodged no one it's not their fault the division is so poor if it wasn't we would be able to judge better just how good they really are.

I know the twerp is on the wind up...But if Curry was 40-36 up on Mccallum who was an unbeaten alltime great..

It hardly suggests he wasn't the same after Honey.....

To me there are a few who have fallen from grace...
Prince Naseem Hamed
David Haye
Don Curry
Michael Carruth
Mike Tyson
Roy Jones Jnr
Evander Holyfield
Joe Lewis
The list can go on...

Michael Carruth.......

Joshsmith wrote:To me there are a few who have fallen from grace...
Prince Naseem Hamed
David Haye
Don Curry
Michael Carruth
Mike Tyson
Roy Jones Jnr
Evander Holyfield
Joe Lewis
The list can go on...

It's a bit early to say Haye has fell from grace it's not impossible he could fight and beat Vitali and then rematch Wlad and actually go in with more than one game plan that wasn't a very good one anyway.

Sorry what does a yellow circle with sunglasses on mean????

Cool

Come on.... Haye will retire with pots of cash in the bank.. he talked the talk made his cash and now will move on. He is sorry ...the Arthur Daley of modern British Boxing .. Good luck to him in what ever he does.. but please please not in Boxing.....

I'm not sure he will retire he seems to be backtracking on his vow to hang the gloves up. Richard Schaefer was talking about him going to America and maybe even fighting Chris Arreola.
Remember Povetkin and Chagaev are fighting for the WBA title now Wlad is the 'super' champ. Haye may be able to tempt the winner of that into a fight in the states or over here if Povetkin wins.

I know he wasn't ever a major mega star or anything but at one point a lot of people (Mainly Americans) thought that Michael Grant was something special.

When he went into the fight with Lewis quite a few people thought he might have a decent chance against him and some thought a major threat to Lewis being an an unbeaten fighter of 31 -0 (No huge names however) He got blasted away by Lewis in 2 and his career has plummeted ever since, been very inactive and recently got outboxed by Adamek.

I understand what prettyboykev is saying (seemed a bit gay that calling a guy pretty) anyhows..Haye is a cash-cow and will no doubt carry on fighting meaningless fights knowing he cannot beat the best around..
Hayes best hope is the Klitschkos retire and if they did tomorrow Haye would be boxing until he was 40...

The most recent one I can think of is Kelly Pavlik!

Man! The guy beat up Taylor (before we realised Taylor runs on fumes), is top of the middleweight division... beats a few tomato cans and jabs poor ol' Gary Lockett to death in 3, the next thing we know he's in the ring against Bernard (as the favourite!) and gets SCHOOLED for 12 whole rounds.

Blame the staph problem with his hands, the drink or the poor fighters he fought after beating Taylor, but the guy had his soul snatched that night.

Ultimately gets beaten by Martinez in a competitive but fairly one sided bout and in the eyes of Showtime, the near indestructible Kelly Pavlik is now shot. I doubt we'll see the same, tough and strong Pavlik in the future.

In terms of sheer a CAR CRASH fall from grace, I could mention Enzo Macarenelli - Some pundits had him a favorite going in against Haye! Was built up and given his first Headline card against Haye, after that loss and the subsequent Afolabi loss he didn't even appear on the recorded sections of Sky's undercards, possibly out of fear of seeing the poor guy get killed in the ring!

Joshsmith wrote:I understand what prettyboykev is saying (seemed a bit gay that calling a guy pretty) anyhows..Haye is a cash-cow and will no doubt carry on fighting meaningless fights knowing he cannot beat the best around..
Hayes best hope is the Klitschkos retire and if they did tomorrow Haye would be boxing until he was 40...

Would agree with you there Josh, i'm just not feeling the retirement plan now and he had me pretty convinced before, i believe Haye would continue as long as he could if the Klitschko's disappeared.

oxring wrote:"Couldn't stop McBride and Grant"

But won clear decisions over both. Should we list the fact that you *ahem* pbf couldn't stop Mosley? Or a mentally unstable Judah?

And he clearly outboxed Arreola. That's not going life and death.

Arreola is a top 10 ranked HW.

Valuev was top 10 ranked because of the belt - not because of anyone he'd fought.

Ruiz wasn't top10. Barrett was just top50. Harrison was...well. Enough said.

Tua is old, fat and shot to blazes. Talking about the Barrett-Tua fight as though it proves Barrett had something to offer is a joke. Notwithstanding the fact that Barrett was robbed of a KD against Haye as well.

Haye would beat Adamek, (probably) - but Adamek has earnt his shot by fighting contenders. Haye did not and was ill prepared.

Nice try but Mosley has never been stopped, he and Judah were world champions and quality…bad example oxy

Adamek has not shown heavyweight power like David Haye which puts him at a massive disadvantage as he wont be able to outbox the Klitschkos.
He won a clear but close decision over the overrated Arreola and lets not forget Adamek was out on his feet a few times in that fight but Arreola could not close the show hence why I said life and death.

Who the hell has Arreola fought and beat then huh? He was gifted a top 10 spot on the back of beating bums.
You have a go at Valuev for it why not Arreola then…Valuev held the WBA title he deserves a top 10 spot, Arreola does not simple as.

First guy to drop the iron chinned Tua oxy plus he was world ranked top 10 in the world governing bodies.
I agree with how Haye has gone about his business in the heavyweight division.

Barrett – ranked top 10 by one of the world governing bodies
Valuev – get a belt to aid in neogations with the Klitschkos
Ruiz – Former world champion and mandatory
Harrison – Earns millions of pounds for a easy payday (No heavyweight outside the Klitschkos could get Haye a payday like this)

I find it laughable that you claim Adamek has earnt his shot he has faced NO ONE. Valuev and Ruiz are former champions you cant claim that beating never has beens like Grant, Mcbride and Arreola are worthy of a title shot.

Haye has a superior record to Adamek at heavyweight.

The Galveston Giant wrote:

Joshsmith wrote:I understand what prettyboykev is saying (seemed a bit gay that calling a guy pretty) anyhows..Haye is a cash-cow and will no doubt carry on fighting meaningless fights knowing he cannot beat the best around..
Hayes best hope is the Klitschkos retire and if they did tomorrow Haye would be boxing until he was 40...

Would agree with you there Josh, i'm just not feeling the retirement plan now and he had me pretty convinced before, i believe Haye would continue as long as he could if the Klitschko's disappeared.

Haye will retire in a few years at the very latest...He relies on his speed and this will fade as he grows older.

oxring wrote:I thought it was a shame they banned Arreola for his post-Vitali interview. Nice to see a boxer show so much passion.

He came to win the fight - he threw against Vitali frequently - he tried to win. He didn't stand there and let Vitali tee off. He wasn't as good - but anyone would have told you it was 2 years and about 15 fights too soon for Cris. Good to see him in better shape as well.

Just a shame he did not show the same commitment in training and coming in shape for the fight...All good fighting regularly but what's the point in all that time facing just facing bums?

Arreola has not beaten anyone worthy before or after the Vitali fight.

Not true - Arreola has earnt his ranking - he was bottom end of the top 10 HWs - but he was there for beating the likes of Walker, McCline and Witherspoon (chazz).

Since the loss to Arreola he's gone away and lost 20 pounds.

BTW - pbf if you want to throw out that Adamek "couldn't even stop Estrada" why couldn't pbf stop Baldomir?

I'm not throwing these fights out there to criticise pbf - I find the line "couldn't even stop someone" a ridiculous line of argument. Boxing is about winning and hitting without being hit. Klitschko didn't stop Ibragimov - but he won a clear UD. Dull as dishwater to watch - but a clear win is a clear win.

I can see we're not going to agree on Haye's HW career - but looked at this way its slightly different.

Barrett – not a top 20 ring/boxrec ranking
Valuev – steals the belt from Chagaev - who is the real champion. Inactive, old and coming off the back of robbing Holyfield. Medical condition causing tunnel vision.
Ruiz – Former world champion and mandatory - but 5 years past his prime. Hasn't held a belt since 2005. Beating the same level of opposition as Arreola since that time.
Harrison – A useless, bum. In a fight where he landed 1 punch - and didn't throw anything for 2 rounds.

Notice - that Duran - the LW champ of the world and second best fighter of the 70s - officially - didn't step straight up to WW - he had to prove his effectiveness around the weight - first.

Who in that list prepared Haye to fight a guy like Klitschko? Who prepared him to fight someone who could use the jab? Where are the Chambers, the Arreolas, the Dimitrenkos, Boytsovs, Povetkins, Heleniuis, Peters? These guys were all ranked higher than anything Haye fought. Yes - the WBA ranked Ruiz and Valuev - but that's plain crooked and wrong.

You keep mentioning Tua - the guy is in his 40s! Old and inactive! This isn't the guy who went life and death with Ibeabuchi or stopped Ruiz - this is a shadow, a ghost - practically needs a zimmerframe to get to the ring - and with so much ring rust on him its a wonder he can throw a punch at all. Everyone thinks Tua is past it - probably even Tuaman himself. If Tua proves me wrong and goes on to do something after beating Barrett in the rematch - I'll take it back and assess Haye's win slightly better. But as it stands - its meaningless.

Along with the rest of Haye's career at HW (Valuev aside as that did win him an alphabelt - even if the belt belonged to Chagaev).

If McCline isn't worthy btw - then Ruiz hasn't beaten anyone worthy since 2005. If McCline is worthy - then Arreola deserves his ranking. You can't have it both ways pbf. Arreola was much more impressive against McCline than Ruiz, it should be mentioned.

And we are supposed to believe that's it and he's calling time on his career.

A career that involves him winning the CW title (w/o Bell and Jones) but with good wins over Mormeck and Maccarinelli. Weak division - but good wins over reasonable fighters. Moves up to win an alphabelt before being comprehensively defeated by the better man.

Hardly the stuff of ages is it? That "breath of new life" into the HW division is starting to smell a touch stale.

oxring wrote:Not true - Arreola has earnt his ranking - he was bottom end of the top 10 HWs - but he was there for beating the likes of Walker, McCline and Witherspoon (chazz).

Since the loss to Arreola he's gone away and lost 20 pounds.

BTW - pbf if you want to throw out that Adamek "couldn't even stop Estrada" why couldn't pbf stop Baldomir?

I'm not throwing these fights out there to criticise pbf - I find the line "couldn't even stop someone" a ridiculous line of argument. Boxing is about winning and hitting without being hit. Klitschko didn't stop Ibragimov - but he won a clear UD. Dull as dishwater to watch - but a clear win is a clear win.

I can see we're not going to agree on Haye's HW career - but looked at this way its slightly different.

Barrett – not a top 20 ring/boxrec ranking
Valuev – steals the belt from Chagaev - who is the real champion. Inactive, old and coming off the back of robbing Holyfield. Medical condition causing tunnel vision.
Ruiz – Former world champion and mandatory - but 5 years past his prime. Hasn't held a belt since 2005. Beating the same level of opposition as Arreola since that time.
Harrison – A useless, bum. In a fight where he landed 1 punch - and didn't throw anything for 2 rounds.

Notice - that Duran - the LW champ of the world and second best fighter of the 70s - officially - didn't step straight up to WW - he had to prove his effectiveness around the weight - first.

Who in that list prepared Haye to fight a guy like Klitschko? Who prepared him to fight someone who could use the jab? Where are the Chambers, the Arreolas, the Dimitrenkos, Boytsovs, Povetkins, Heleniuis, Peters? These guys were all ranked higher than anything Haye fought. Yes - the WBA ranked Ruiz and Valuev - but that's plain crooked and wrong.

You keep mentioning Tua - the guy is in his 40s! Old and inactive! This isn't the guy who went life and death with Ibeabuchi or stopped Ruiz - this is a shadow, a ghost - practically needs a zimmerframe to get to the ring - and with so much ring rust on him its a wonder he can throw a punch at all. Everyone thinks Tua is past it - probably even Tuaman himself. If Tua proves me wrong and goes on to do something after beating Barrett in the rematch - I'll take it back and assess Haye's win slightly better. But as it stands - its meaningless.

Along with the rest of Haye's career at HW (Valuev aside as that did win him an alphabelt - even if the belt belonged to Chagaev).

If McCline isn't worthy btw - then Ruiz hasn't beaten anyone worthy since 2005. If McCline is worthy - then Arreola deserves his ranking. You can't have it both ways pbf. Arreola was much more impressive against McCline than Ruiz, it should be mentioned.

And we are supposed to believe that's it and he's calling time on his career.

A career that involves him winning the CW title (w/o Bell and Jones) but with good wins over Mormeck and Maccarinelli. Weak division - but good wins over reasonable fighters. Moves up to win an alphabelt before being comprehensively defeated by the better man.

Hardly the stuff of ages is it? That "breath of new life" into the HW division is starting to smell a touch stale.

Haye has got everyone talking about the heavyweight division and that is an achievement in itself , granted Haye has not live up to his promise about dethroning the Klitschkos but he still the best heavyweight outside the brothers by a country mile.

David Tua is not in his 40s...Ruiz ran Chagaev close

Chambers, the Arreolas, the Dimitrenkos, Boytsovs, Povetkins, Heleniuis, Peters

Peters is shot, Chambers, Dimitrenkos and Arreola are not any better than the likes of Valuev or Ruiz...Heleniuis and Boystovs are unproven, just have arrived on the scene...Haye was sparring with Heleniuis in the run up to the Klitschko fight I believe.

No one in the heavyweight division could prepare him for the Klitschkos as they are all stiffs, inexperienced and bums.

Remember boxing is a business if you can earn millions of pounds fighting a Audley Harrison you would be stupid not to take the fight...Haye gave Wlad his hardest test since the first Peters fight.

Haye's style gave Wlad fits likewise Wlad did the same to Haye...He also missed a lot of punches and he just simply outworked Haye.

People are making it out to be one sided beating when it wasn't

haye has done more than adamek to earn a shot with a klitschko, but no way has he done more to earn a title shot. before valuev, haye had only fought barrett after stepping up from cruiser, since adamek stepped up from cruiser he has fought 6 times before a title shot.

The genius of PBF wrote:

oxring wrote:Not true - Arreola has earnt his ranking - he was bottom end of the top 10 HWs - but he was there for beating the likes of Walker, McCline and Witherspoon (chazz).

Since the loss to Arreola he's gone away and lost 20 pounds.

BTW - pbf if you want to throw out that Adamek "couldn't even stop Estrada" why couldn't pbf stop Baldomir?

I'm not throwing these fights out there to criticise pbf - I find the line "couldn't even stop someone" a ridiculous line of argument. Boxing is about winning and hitting without being hit. Klitschko didn't stop Ibragimov - but he won a clear UD. Dull as dishwater to watch - but a clear win is a clear win.

I can see we're not going to agree on Haye's HW career - but looked at this way its slightly different.

Barrett – not a top 20 ring/boxrec ranking
Valuev – steals the belt from Chagaev - who is the real champion. Inactive, old and coming off the back of robbing Holyfield. Medical condition causing tunnel vision.
Ruiz – Former world champion and mandatory - but 5 years past his prime. Hasn't held a belt since 2005. Beating the same level of opposition as Arreola since that time.
Harrison – A useless, bum. In a fight where he landed 1 punch - and didn't throw anything for 2 rounds.

Notice - that Duran - the LW champ of the world and second best fighter of the 70s - officially - didn't step straight up to WW - he had to prove his effectiveness around the weight - first.

Who in that list prepared Haye to fight a guy like Klitschko? Who prepared him to fight someone who could use the jab? Where are the Chambers, the Arreolas, the Dimitrenkos, Boytsovs, Povetkins, Heleniuis, Peters? These guys were all ranked higher than anything Haye fought. Yes - the WBA ranked Ruiz and Valuev - but that's plain crooked and wrong.

You keep mentioning Tua - the guy is in his 40s! Old and inactive! This isn't the guy who went life and death with Ibeabuchi or stopped Ruiz - this is a shadow, a ghost - practically needs a zimmerframe to get to the ring - and with so much ring rust on him its a wonder he can throw a punch at all. Everyone thinks Tua is past it - probably even Tuaman himself. If Tua proves me wrong and goes on to do something after beating Barrett in the rematch - I'll take it back and assess Haye's win slightly better. But as it stands - its meaningless.

Along with the rest of Haye's career at HW (Valuev aside as that did win him an alphabelt - even if the belt belonged to Chagaev).

If McCline isn't worthy btw - then Ruiz hasn't beaten anyone worthy since 2005. If McCline is worthy - then Arreola deserves his ranking. You can't have it both ways pbf. Arreola was much more impressive against McCline than Ruiz, it should be mentioned.

And we are supposed to believe that's it and he's calling time on his career.

A career that involves him winning the CW title (w/o Bell and Jones) but with good wins over Mormeck and Maccarinelli. Weak division - but good wins over reasonable fighters. Moves up to win an alphabelt before being comprehensively defeated by the better man.

Hardly the stuff of ages is it? That "breath of new life" into the HW division is starting to smell a touch stale.

Haye has got everyone talking about the heavyweight division and that is an achievement in itself , granted Haye has not live up to his promise about dethroning the Klitschkos but he still the best heavyweight outside the brothers by a country mile.

David Tua is not in his 40s...Ruiz ran Chagaev close

Chambers, the Arreolas, the Dimitrenkos, Boytsovs, Povetkins, Heleniuis, Peters

Peters is shot, Chambers, Dimitrenkos and Arreola are not any better than the likes of Valuev or Ruiz...Heleniuis and Boystovs are unproven, just have arrived on the scene...Haye was sparring with Heleniuis in the run up to the Klitschko fight I believe.

No one in the heavyweight division could prepare him for the Klitschkos as they are all stiffs, inexperienced and bums.

Remember boxing is a business if you can earn millions of pounds fighting a Audley Harrison you would be stupid not to take the fight...Haye gave Wlad his hardest test since the first Peters fight.

Haye's style gave Wlad fits likewise Wlad did the same to Haye...He also missed a lot of punches and he just simply outworked Haye.

People are making it out to be one sided beating when it wasn't

Grief man - Haye barely won a round - he took round 3 on most cards and that's it! Dimitrenko, Chambers, Arreola are better than Valuev and 38yr old Ruiz. Who had beaten no-one other than McCline since 2005.

Boxing IS a business - but if you're going to pad your record with Audley Harrisons then you have to keep winning to keep your legacy. Otherwise - we look at who you've beaten and we realise only 1 top 10 fighter in 3 years - in Valuev; who shouldn't have been a top 10 fighter having shafted Evander the year before.

Tua is old, broken down and slow. 38 if we're being pedantic. Years past his prime with months and months of inactivity.

If Tua goes on to prove something at HW, then the Barrett "draw" (win) means something. But Solis stopped Barrett in 2, Ustinov a wide UD, hell Valuev managed to stop him - let alone the likes of Couser (who?). Does beating Barrett prove them as well? Solis looked much better against Barrett than Haye - you didn't see Solis being decked in the 4th and saved by the ref...

Tyson - it has to be Tyson.

oxring wrote:

The genius of PBF wrote:

oxring wrote:Not true - Arreola has earnt his ranking - he was bottom end of the top 10 HWs - but he was there for beating the likes of Walker, McCline and Witherspoon (chazz).

Since the loss to Arreola he's gone away and lost 20 pounds.

BTW - pbf if you want to throw out that Adamek "couldn't even stop Estrada" why couldn't pbf stop Baldomir?

I'm not throwing these fights out there to criticise pbf - I find the line "couldn't even stop someone" a ridiculous line of argument. Boxing is about winning and hitting without being hit. Klitschko didn't stop Ibragimov - but he won a clear UD. Dull as dishwater to watch - but a clear win is a clear win.

I can see we're not going to agree on Haye's HW career - but looked at this way its slightly different.

Barrett – not a top 20 ring/boxrec ranking
Valuev – steals the belt from Chagaev - who is the real champion. Inactive, old and coming off the back of robbing Holyfield. Medical condition causing tunnel vision.
Ruiz – Former world champion and mandatory - but 5 years past his prime. Hasn't held a belt since 2005. Beating the same level of opposition as Arreola since that time.
Harrison – A useless, bum. In a fight where he landed 1 punch - and didn't throw anything for 2 rounds.

Notice - that Duran - the LW champ of the world and second best fighter of the 70s - officially - didn't step straight up to WW - he had to prove his effectiveness around the weight - first.

Who in that list prepared Haye to fight a guy like Klitschko? Who prepared him to fight someone who could use the jab? Where are the Chambers, the Arreolas, the Dimitrenkos, Boytsovs, Povetkins, Heleniuis, Peters? These guys were all ranked higher than anything Haye fought. Yes - the WBA ranked Ruiz and Valuev - but that's plain crooked and wrong.

You keep mentioning Tua - the guy is in his 40s! Old and inactive! This isn't the guy who went life and death with Ibeabuchi or stopped Ruiz - this is a shadow, a ghost - practically needs a zimmerframe to get to the ring - and with so much ring rust on him its a wonder he can throw a punch at all. Everyone thinks Tua is past it - probably even Tuaman himself. If Tua proves me wrong and goes on to do something after beating Barrett in the rematch - I'll take it back and assess Haye's win slightly better. But as it stands - its meaningless.

Along with the rest of Haye's career at HW (Valuev aside as that did win him an alphabelt - even if the belt belonged to Chagaev).

If McCline isn't worthy btw - then Ruiz hasn't beaten anyone worthy since 2005. If McCline is worthy - then Arreola deserves his ranking. You can't have it both ways pbf. Arreola was much more impressive against McCline than Ruiz, it should be mentioned.

And we are supposed to believe that's it and he's calling time on his career.

A career that involves him winning the CW title (w/o Bell and Jones) but with good wins over Mormeck and Maccarinelli. Weak division - but good wins over reasonable fighters. Moves up to win an alphabelt before being comprehensively defeated by the better man.

Hardly the stuff of ages is it? That "breath of new life" into the HW division is starting to smell a touch stale.

Haye has got everyone talking about the heavyweight division and that is an achievement in itself , granted Haye has not live up to his promise about dethroning the Klitschkos but he still the best heavyweight outside the brothers by a country mile.

David Tua is not in his 40s...Ruiz ran Chagaev close

Chambers, the Arreolas, the Dimitrenkos, Boytsovs, Povetkins, Heleniuis, Peters

Peters is shot, Chambers, Dimitrenkos and Arreola are not any better than the likes of Valuev or Ruiz...Heleniuis and Boystovs are unproven, just have arrived on the scene...Haye was sparring with Heleniuis in the run up to the Klitschko fight I believe.

No one in the heavyweight division could prepare him for the Klitschkos as they are all stiffs, inexperienced and bums.

Remember boxing is a business if you can earn millions of pounds fighting a Audley Harrison you would be stupid not to take the fight...Haye gave Wlad his hardest test since the first Peters fight.

Haye's style gave Wlad fits likewise Wlad did the same to Haye...He also missed a lot of punches and he just simply outworked Haye.

People are making it out to be one sided beating when it wasn't

Grief man - Haye barely won a round - he took round 3 on most cards and that's it! Dimitrenko, Chambers, Arreola are better than Valuev and 38yr old Ruiz. Who had beaten no-one other than McCline since 2005.

Boxing IS a business - but if you're going to pad your record with Audley Harrisons then you have to keep winning to keep your legacy. Otherwise - we look at who you've beaten and we realise only 1 top 10 fighter in 3 years - in Valuev; who shouldn't have been a top 10 fighter having shafted Evander the year before.

Tua is old, broken down and slow. 38 if we're being pedantic. Years past his prime with months and months of inactivity.

If Tua goes on to prove something at HW, then the Barrett "draw" (win) means something. But Solis stopped Barrett in 2, Ustinov a wide UD, hell Valuev managed to stop him - let alone the likes of Couser (who?). Does beating Barrett prove them as well? Solis looked much better against Barrett than Haye - you didn't see Solis being decked in the 4th and saved by the ref...

Whether you like it or not Haye style gave Wlad fits…even in his loss against Wlad he still showed he is head and shoulders above the rest apart from the brothers.

Wlad just about outworked Haye in the rounds but you can carry on making it out to be a “boxing masterclass”.

Valuev and Ruiz are better than Dimitrenko, Chambers and Arreola…the latter 3 have beaten no one of note apart from a Peters coming off a beating against Vitali…at least Valuev and Ruiz were former champions.

Harrison was a one off big money earner which is why he went after Wlad next…Again you dismiss Valuev, what the hell has a fat overrated Arreola done to deserve a top 10 ranking in your eyes?

So what if Haye had a flash knockdown against Barrett…No the ref didn’t save Haye because he got up and knocked Barrett out within seconds!!!!!

Barrett became the first one to knockdown Tua, no shame in going down against Barrett.

I agree Solis is a talented boxer with potential IF he gets himself into shape.

Chambers? Well he's beaten Dimitrenko (at the time ranked 6 I believe) and come back to win the semi-final of the IBF elimination tournament.

Arreola - Walker, McCline and Witherspoon.

Dimitrenko - hard one - he'd beaten a string of journeymen - but very impressively.

I like this game, however:

Who did Ruiz beat since 2005 to deserve a shot?
Who did Valuev beat since Ruiz to deserve the belt?
Why did Valuev have to steal the belt from Chagaev using disgusting politics?
So Barrett's KD of Tua proves him? The guy has been battered over and over - by Ustinov, by Solis, by that Couser bloke.

And "just about" outworked Haye? Yeah - he "just about" outworked Haye in every single round (except maybe 3). That is a comprehensive win.

As for knocking down Tua - the guy is past-it! I bet Barrett would knock down Chuvalo if they fought tomorrow - would that prove anything?

Seriously - when you're not being Floyd Mayweather do you work for Hayemaker promotions? I love the way you're trying to spin this - but I don't think its fair and just.

oxring wrote:Chambers? Well he's beaten Dimitrenko (at the time ranked 6 I believe) and come back to win the semi-final of the IBF elimination tournament.

Arreola - Walker, McCline and Witherspoon.

Dimitrenko - hard one - he'd beaten a string of journeymen - but very impressively.

I like this game, however:

Who did Ruiz beat since 2005 to deserve a shot?
Who did Valuev beat since Ruiz to deserve the belt?
Why did Valuev have to steal the belt from Chagaev using disgusting politics?
So Barrett's KD of Tua proves him? The guy has been battered over and over - by Ustinov, by Solis, by that Couser bloke.

And "just about" outworked Haye? Yeah - he "just about" outworked Haye in every single round (except maybe 3). That is a comprehensive win.

As for knocking down Tua - the guy is past-it! I bet Barrett would knock down Chuvalo if they fought tomorrow - would that prove anything?

Seriously - when you're not being Floyd Mayweather do you work for Hayemaker promotions? I love the way you're trying to spin this - but I don't think its fair and just.

Don’t rate Dimitrenko…has a win over a past it Peters coming off a beating against Vitali

Arreola:

Walker
McCline
Witherspoon (im guessing that ain’t Tim) who???

Anyone can look good against bums like Dimitrenko.

Your clutching at straws oxy

Ruiz had a close fight with Valuev so was promised a rematch then got paid step aside money so Haye could have a shot at that’s how you got Haye vs Ruiz.
Valuev was already champion before Chagaev and it was down to Chagaev getting a illness hepatitis I believe nothing to do with politics.
Barrett was coming off a win over the highly rated Fields, a worthy opponent to have in your 2nd fight at heavy. Barrett knocking down Tua shows he has power.

Yeah he just about outworked Haye in every round but if you listen to some people that make it out to be a “battering” and “beating”.

Do you work for Frank Warren or Bob Arum as you seem blinded from the truth?

Adamek is badly overrated and barring a totally awful showing from the ever reliable Vitali I hope the older brother K batters him.

ROFL.

Genuinely Rofling at some of that. No straws, my friend, I fear.

You don't normally get a title shot for losing a title fight. That's not the way its done. I am thus, assuming that you are accepting Ruiz had beaten no-one of note since 2005. Unless you include McCline - in which case you shouldn't be laughing at that win - as Arreola's win over McCline was more impressive than Ruiz.

Valuev won the WBA with a controversial decision, its true. However - Chagaev beat him to win the belt. Chagaev then ruptured his Achilles tendon - so became champ-in-recess with a guaranteed shot against Valuev. In 2007, he'd contracted hep B, from which he'd fully recovered.

Chagaev returned, won his tune-up against Drummond and had to fight Valuev who'd won the interim title.

I don't know how much you know about hepB - but essentially, once you've had the disease antibodies against viral antigens remain present for years. If the fight had been in Germany - Chagaev would have been cleared to face Valuev - as they test fairly and look for signs of active disease (inflammatory markers, liver function tests etc). Sauerland and King paid to force the fight into Finland - where they only test for antibodies to the surface antigen. Thus, even though Chagaev was well - he wasn't allowed to fight. The WBA then stripped him with glee and gave the full belt to Valuev. You telling me that wasn't odd?

Furthermore - he had those same antibodies when he won the title. It was fine for him to fight then - the WBA, Sauerland and King had no complaints then. Chagaev released his blood results after the farce - at no point since 2007 had his blood results changed.

That's politics however you look at it. Valuev was the cash cow of King and Wilfred and they paid a bit to keep him going so they could milk him one last time against Haye.

So - questions for you:
1. Looking at the facts as laid out above - does it not seem that Valuev retained his belt from Chagaev on politics, not merit
2. Who did Ruiz beat from 2005 onwards?

oxring wrote:ROFL.

Genuinely Rofling at some of that. No straws, my friend, I fear.

You don't normally get a title shot for losing a title fight. That's not the way its done. I am thus, assuming that you are accepting Ruiz had beaten no-one of note since 2005. Unless you include McCline - in which case you shouldn't be laughing at that win - as Arreola's win over McCline was more impressive than Ruiz.

Valuev won the WBA with a controversial decision, its true. However - Chagaev beat him to win the belt. Chagaev then ruptured his Achilles tendon - so became champ-in-recess with a guaranteed shot against Valuev. In 2007, he'd contracted hep B, from which he'd fully recovered.

Chagaev returned, won his tune-up against Drummond and had to fight Valuev who'd won the interim title.

I don't know how much you know about hepB - but essentially, once you've had the disease antibodies against viral antigens remain present for years. If the fight had been in Germany - Chagaev would have been cleared to face Valuev - as they test fairly and look for signs of active disease (inflammatory markers, liver function tests etc). Sauerland and King paid to force the fight into Finland - where they only test for antibodies to the surface antigen. Thus, even though Chagaev was well - he wasn't allowed to fight. The WBA then stripped him with glee and gave the full belt to Valuev. You telling me that wasn't odd?

Furthermore - he had those same antibodies when he won the title. It was fine for him to fight then - the WBA, Sauerland and King had no complaints then. Chagaev released his blood results after the farce - at no point since 2007 had his blood results changed.

That's politics however you look at it. Valuev was the cash cow of King and Wilfred and they paid a bit to keep him going so they could milk him one last time against Haye.

So - questions for you:
1. Looking at the facts as laid out above - does it not seem that Valuev retained his belt from Chagaev on politics, not merit
2. Who did Ruiz beat from 2005 onwards?

Haye had to fight Ruiz or he would have the lost the belt and his bargaining chip against the Klitschkos…Still Ruiz has a superior record than the overrated Arreola.

Oxy Chagaev could not fight in England against Haye either I believe so no I don’t find it odd…oh gosh oxy I have to teach you everything.

Lol. Doesn't mean that its fair though does it? Just that the commissions have blind, short-sighted rules about medical conditions. They knew he would fail the test when the put the fight in Finland. If they'd fought in Germany, Chagaev would have won, again.

I accept Haye HAD to fight Ruiz or lose the bargaining chip - so I'm not picking on him for TAKING that fight - but I will object to building that win up as something more than it is.

You haven't said it - but I'm taking your failure to rebut my point as acceptance - Ruiz did not beat anyone of note from 2005 onwards.

Ruiz' overall record is, yes, superior to Arreola. Ruiz' record from 2005 onwards is not.

Life is not fair oxy...Chagaev would not off been able to fight in England as well.

But would in Germany where the fight should have been held - given they both always fought out of Germany...

Agreed life isn't fair. That's why Ruiz got a shot against Valuev instead of Arreola - given that Ruiz' opposition since 2005 has been significantly worse than Arreola's

oxring wrote:But would in Germany where the fight should have been held - given they both always fought out of Germany...

Agreed life isn't fair. That's why Ruiz got a shot against Valuev instead of Arreola - given that Ruiz' opposition since 2005 has been significantly worse than Arreola's

Dont understand why you bring up post 2005...If your playing that game lets just say Ali did not deserve a shot at Frazier, that's how ridiculous your logic sounds.

Ruiz deserves a shot at Valuev more than Arreola did at Klitschko.

Why should it off been held in Germany? What makes Germany more special than Finland?

Ruiz loses his title in 2005. Beats no-one of note since that time and has a significantly worse resume than say, Arreola in that time.

Ali was an undefeated champion, who came back with 2 wins over contenders - hardly the same is it?

Why should it have been in Germany? Well given both fighters are based in Germany, fight out of Germany and the majority of the audience stake is German - it is highly irregular to switch it to Finland; who has the dubious distinction of 1. being close to Russia and 2. being guaranteed to refuse Chagaev permission to fight.

The belt was stolen from him.

One that springs to mind is Kelly Pavlik.

The genius of PBF wrote:

oxring wrote:Chambers? Well he's beaten Dimitrenko (at the time ranked 6 I believe) and come back to win the semi-final of the IBF elimination tournament.

Arreola - Walker, McCline and Witherspoon.

Dimitrenko - hard one - he'd beaten a string of journeymen - but very impressively.

I like this game, however:

Who did Ruiz beat since 2005 to deserve a shot?
Who did Valuev beat since Ruiz to deserve the belt?
Why did Valuev have to steal the belt from Chagaev using disgusting politics?
So Barrett's KD of Tua proves him? The guy has been battered over and over - by Ustinov, by Solis, by that Couser bloke.

And "just about" outworked Haye? Yeah - he "just about" outworked Haye in every single round (except maybe 3). That is a comprehensive win.

As for knocking down Tua - the guy is past-it! I bet Barrett would knock down Chuvalo if they fought tomorrow - would that prove anything?

Seriously - when you're not being Floyd Mayweather do you work for Hayemaker promotions? I love the way you're trying to spin this - but I don't think its fair and just.

Don’t rate Dimitrenko…has a win over a past it Peters coming off a beating against Vitali

Arreola:

Walker
McCline
Witherspoon (im guessing that ain’t Tim) who???

Anyone can look good against bums like Dimitrenko.

Your clutching at straws oxy

Ruiz had a close fight with Valuev so was promised a rematch then got paid step aside money so Haye could have a shot at that’s how you got Haye vs Ruiz.
Valuev was already champion before Chagaev and it was down to Chagaev getting a illness hepatitis I believe nothing to do with politics.
Barrett was coming off a win over the highly rated Fields, a worthy opponent to have in your 2nd fight at heavy. Barrett knocking down Tua shows he has power.

Yeah he just about outworked Haye in every round but if you listen to some people that make it out to be a “battering” and “beating”.

Do you work for Frank Warren or Bob Arum as you seem blinded from the truth?

With all due respect PBF, I find it a bit puzzling that you are dismissive of top contenders like Arreola, Chambers and Dimitrenko, yet big up men such as Valuev, Monte Barrett and John Ruiz.

Regardless of flooring Tua or beating Fields, Barrett was just seen as an ageing journeyman whom Wlad had already battered a decade earlier.

John Ruiz was an elderly ex-champion with one foot in retirement. He had done little of note for years and was considered irrelevant outside the WBA rankings.

Valuev was the most legitimate opponent since he was a belt holder and a Top 10 ranked HW. However, even he was struggling with health and had seen better days. Prior to fighting Haye, he had looked woeful in his previous fight against Holyfield, a guy who barely has a pulse.

Whatever you may think of Arreola & co, they were still young, game opponents that were Top 10 rated by Ring magazine and Boxrec. They are amoung the best of today, as opposed to the best of yesteryear.

You could well be right in saying that Haye is a level above the other contenders, but he should have spent his time proving it rather than fighting no-marks like Audley or spending months of inactivity.

I also disagree with your belief that Wlad only "outworked" Haye.
Wlad nullified Haye, controlled the ring and used his jab to totally dictate the pace and tempo of the fight. Haye was left resorting to wild swings from a distance.
While I agree it wasnt a "beating", it was still as one-sided as a title fight gets.

Leon Spinks quickly faded into obscurity after his loss to Ali in his return fight.The only names on his CV after that were losses.