Reds v Leinster

First topic message reminder :

There is current speculation that the winner of this year's Super Rugby competition (Reds) will play the European Cup champions, Leinster in a game next year for an unofficial, "world's best provincial rugby side" match up. ARU will be discussing this with European officials at the RWC and apparently it has legs.

Let's assume the game is held in Dublin.

So who do you think would win that one and why?

Rob B - so are the club teams they don't have their international stars.

My point though is that even if the Reds are better they would be challenged by the Northern Clubs and its just plain arrogance to suggest they are light years ahead.

The breakdown was a free for all. It was a farce. As for intensity I'd be interested to know how you measured it but IMO there was more end to end action and running rugby in the Hcup final. Certainly more exciting. The super 15 final didn't live up it's potential at all not sure why people are having a hard time admitting it. There were no SBW offloads no Cooper magic. It was dull enough for large parts of the game with lots of handling errors redeemed only by fleeting moments of genius from Carter and Genia. The first score came on 33 minutes and it was a three pointer!!!! There were three tries in the Hcup by then. There was also more kicking in the super15 final. Not quite a snooze fest but not far off. It was a good game but not a great game at all.

I am in Hong Kong and get to see a lot of HC and other NH games as well as Super Rugby and Tri Nations etc - great channel that Setanta - and its Irish!

A few of my Irish mates here have a similar debate, mainly just ribbing each other. They certainly like to tell me how low grade SH rugby is compared to HC and always talking themselves up. Eg they actually said the Hong Kong test between the ABs and Wallabies was boring! (won 26-24 at the death to break a 10 game losing streak!) What else are they going to do?

I do not think that it is a debate over which championship had the most exciting final and therefore that translates into which is the harder gig. Does a lot of tries means the game was more competitive or that the teams are actually better? 0-0 after 33 mins did not indicate a boring game to me. The intensity far exceeded a lot of the HC games I have seen. It indicated how tight it was and how good the defense was. It was tight due to well organised defense, pressure, lack of time and lack space given - this causes errors. With a lot of Leinster/HC matches, it looks much more open, more time to make decisions and less pressure on the attacking team, slightly weaker defense and maybe more tries. Sorry to offend but the average HC game is also slower - it is like everyone is in 3rd gear.

Heineken Cup is much slower than Super Rugby. The final didn't change that.

If you think the super rugby final was better than the Hcup final you are most definitely from another planet. Sorry but you lose all credibality with that statement.

leinsterbaby wrote:If you think the super rugby final was better than the Hcup final you are most definitely from another planet. Sorry but you lose all credibality with that statement.

The HEC final (I was there) was a superb match - completely different style though in that each team dominated for a half, whereas the SXV game was a hard fought scrap the whole way through. There were more errors in the SXV final, a consequence of the greater intensity applied by both defences.

Plus the finals are just one game in each tournament.

I don't think the comment relates to which was the better final.

Argue hard and enjoy your success, but telling people they know nothing or lack credibility makes you look like you've run out of ideas more than proving anything else.

0-0 after 33 mins did not indicate a boring game to me. The intensity far exceeded a lot of the HC games I have seen. It indicated how tight it was and how good the defense was. It was tight due to well organised defense, pressure, lack of time and lack space given - this causes errors. With a lot of Leinster/HC matches, it looks much more open, more time to make decisions and less pressure on the attacking team, slightly weaker defense and maybe more tries.

This is pretty much the exact argument that NH fans usually give when SH fans say that S15 is more exciting. I'd love to see Leinster v Reds, it would be a great spectacle and a tight game, we wouldn't fear any team.

Rob B wrote:

Notch wrote:Queensland Reds have loads of players from the 3rd ranked side in World Rugby. Leinster have loads of players from the 4th ranked side in world rugby.
I would back Leinster by the finest of margins.

I am not sure whoese argument this helps however a couple of points, as I think it is clear some of you guys do not watch much Super Rugby and seem to be drawing conclusions just from the final.

1. Australia's rank is No2, not 3. SA is 3.

2. I think the Reds have shown that the number of internationals in their team has had nothing to do with success or predictions of success. It is the how the team performs as a group. FYI the Reds do NOT have loads of Wallabies. In fact they currently have 2 Wallabies: No 9 and 10. Yes some others will come in this year like Slipper, Loane and maybe Horwill.

I watch it every weekend, at least one game and usually two. Most Super Rugby teams would thrash the majority Heineken Cup sides.

Leinster just happen to be a very good team (They would also thrash most Heineken Cup sides on the form of last season). Most of the reason why they were so dominant last year is they were on another level in terms of pace and intensity to 90% of the other sides in the competition. I think enough to keep up with the Super Rugby teams. And the Reds scrum really is poor- that can lose you games.

Mickado wrote:[quote="Rob B0-0 after 33 mins did not indicate a boring game to me. The intensity far exceeded a lot of the HC games I have seen. It indicated how tight it was and how good the defense was. It was tight due to well organised defense, pressure, lack of time and lack space given - this causes errors. With a lot of Leinster/HC matches, it looks much more open, more time to make decisions and less pressure on the attacking team, slightly weaker defense and maybe more tries.

This is pretty much the exact argument that NH fans usually give when SH fans say that S15 is more exciting. I'd love to see Leinster v Reds, it would be a great spectacle and a tight game, we wouldn't fear any team.[/quote]



I thought of that comment, but you can't betray your own team in an argument!

Notch wrote: And the Reds scrum really is poor- that can lose you games.

I think the results would show that it didn't lose them any games this year. I would say the Crusaders have the best scrum of all provincial sides in the world. Crusaders scrum did beat the Reds scrum, but the Reds nevertheless got the ball in and out of the scrum quickly nullifying them quite effectively. They played that very smart I thought, conceding 1 penalty all day.

I didn’t see the S15 final, but if the Saders scrum was so dominant and it only won 1 penalty then that’s poor tactics on their part. Surely pressing the advantage in the scrum is the key…

Portnoy,

Fellow Tigers fan here. You're making a fool of yourself again, mate!

They got let off all day Mickado. In the NH it will lose you games Rob.

If Reds come up to play their final against Leinster in November in Ireland in the howling wind and rain, it will hurt them.

If it's a hard track in Brisbane, not so much.

And French sides have the best scrums of any provincial sides; sorry, they just do.

Mickado wrote:I didn’t see the S15 final, but if the Saders scrum was so dominant and it only won 1 penalty then that’s poor tactics on their part. Surely pressing the advantage in the scrum is the key…

Not the first time a NZ team ignored the glaringly obvious in favour of a utopian style of rugby only to fall short. On paper the saders should have won the tournament but although no one is going to admit it flying to SA and then to Oz to play their knock out games probably took it's toll whereas Reds enjoyed the luxury of home games. Plus it could be argued that the Reds had an easier conference. On the day though reds were the better team and deserved champs.

Maybe, but I guess in the NH you drop the ball all the time so there are more scrums to contest

Agree would be hard in Ireland with shocking weather - Reds (and Wallabies) just do not play in those conditions often enough to adapt properly.

Leinster playing Reds in Brisbane, Crusaders in NZ or Stormers in SA - just can't see them winning any of those.

[quote="leinsterbaby"]

Mickado wrote:I didn’t see the S15 final, but if the Saders scrum was so dominant and it only won 1 penalty then that’s poor tactics on their part. Surely pressing the advantage in the scrum is the key…

Not the first time a NZ team ignored the glaringly obvious in favour of a utopian style of rugby only to fall short. [quote]

If you get a chance to watch the game, it was not a case of bad tactics, it's just that Reds countered them better - several All Blacks said the same thing.

Rob B wrote:Maybe, but I guess in the NH you drop the ball all the time so there are more scrums to contest

Agree would be hard in Ireland with shocking weather - Reds (and Wallabies) just do not play in those conditions often enough to adapt properly.

Leinster playing Reds in Brisbane, Crusaders in NZ or Stormers in SA - just can't see them winning any of those.

No, can't see them winning in the SH. Can't see Reds beating Leinster in the NH.

In awful weather you do indeed drop the ball more

Rob B wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:

Mickado wrote:I didn’t see the S15 final, but if the Saders scrum was so dominant and it only won 1 penalty then that’s poor tactics on their part. Surely pressing the advantage in the scrum is the key…

Not the first time a NZ team ignored the glaringly obvious in favour of a utopian style of rugby only to fall short.

If you get a chance to watch the game, it was not a case of bad tactics, it's just that Reds countered them better - several All Blacks said the same thing.

True.

Mikado, the Crusaders also managed to win a couple of scrums by wheeling the Reds through 90 degrees - it's not often you manage that in this day & age without someone being penalised.

Rob B wrote:

The breakdown was a free for all. It was a farce. As for intensity I'd be interested to know how you measured it but IMO there was more end to end action and running rugby in the Hcup final. Certainly more exciting. The super 15 final didn't live up it's potential at all not sure why people are having a hard time admitting it. There were no SBW offloads no Cooper magic. It was dull enough for large parts of the game with lots of handling errors redeemed only by fleeting moments of genius from Carter and Genia. The first score came on 33 minutes and it was a three pointer!!!! There were three tries in the Hcup by then. There was also more kicking in the super15 final. Not quite a snooze fest but not far off. It was a good game but not a great game at all.

I am in Hong Kong and get to see a lot of HC and other NH games as well as Super Rugby and Tri Nations etc - great channel that Setanta - and its Irish!

A few of my Irish mates here have a similar debate, mainly just ribbing each other. They certainly like to tell me how low grade SH rugby is compared to HC and always talking themselves up. Eg they actually said the Hong Kong test between the ABs and Wallabies was boring! (won 26-24 at the death to break a 10 game losing streak!) What else are they going to do?

I do not think that it is a debate over which championship had the most exciting final and therefore that translates into which is the harder gig. Does a lot of tries means the game was more competitive or that the teams are actually better? 0-0 after 33 mins did not indicate a boring game to me. The intensity far exceeded a lot of the HC games I have seen. It indicated how tight it was and how good the defense was. It was tight due to well organised defense, pressure, lack of time and lack space given - this causes errors. With a lot of Leinster/HC matches, it looks much more open, more time to make decisions and less pressure on the attacking team, slightly weaker defense and maybe more tries. Sorry to offend but the average HC game is also slower - it is like everyone is in 3rd gear.

Have you been to Solas on wyndam street I think? It is run by a guy I know who also plays for HK in rugby.

Rory right?

Yeah Rory Hussy, his brother Ciaran (Solas manager) captained Ireland schoolboys on their tour to Australia in 99. Rory has also played league of Ireland football and represented NY in hurling. Very sporting family.

ok - knew he played rugby but didn't realise they were that good in all these sports. I have met him but he wouldn't remember - I am just one of the thousands he has met on the fotpath out the front - that's what happens in the bar business. They run Kila as well. This place is being overtaken by Irish.

They own a good few bars now. I was there recently and they seemed to know every expat in HK so I thought I'd ask. I met up with three unrelated friends one night and they all knew eachother and all knew Rory and Ciaran. Seems like a tight knit expat community.

Too tight knit!

"Sorry to offend but the average HC game is also slower"

When Leinster played Toulouse in the Heineken Cup semi final, Clement Poitrenaud said afterwards, that only the latter stages of a World Cup are played at the speed of the match he had just played in. And all the commentators and pundits agreed. It was an incredibly fast, physical and intense match. The best match of the year in my opinion.

The average HC game is slower. But Leinster and Toulouse can play at a faster, more accurate, more intense level than most other European teams. That's why they're the last two champions. I think both would do very well in Super Rugby.

If Leinster played Reds in Dublin I'd have money on the home team. I'd be quite confident.

Thing is, with a one-off game against a scratch side you'd expect the club side to have an advantage. Add to that the prestige of upsetting an international side, and the home side has a lot to play for. Another thing to bear in mind is that the international side may be trying out specifics areas of their game, or a new game plan to see how it goes and not entirely focussed on winning at all costs, or blowing out the scoreline. I suspect that if a club side went on an international tour and played 2 or 3 tests, the results might not be so flattering.

Rob B wrote:

red_stag wrote:Taylor, yes the Reds are probably a better team for the reasons you list. I said as much myself. But the comparison is between one facet of their game and how it compares with the European champs.

Why is it in the last 5 years alone that there are results like:

Leicester Tigers 22-19 South Africa
Munster 15-6 Australia
Connacht 26-22 Samoa
Saracens 24-23 South Africa
Munster 16-18 New Zealand
Ospreys 24-16 Australia
Ulster 24-00 Queensland Reds

The Southern clubs may be a little better but I think you really underestimate the Northern Hemisphere clubs.

The above international sides are presumably mid-week or B teams (except maybe Samoa - and the Reds were at time one of the weakest side in Super Rugby). B teams are in no way the second best team from that country. They probably play together once or twice and then are disbanded. They have no background, teamwork, momentum or anything. Games against the local provincial sides are always close as they are up against sides that play together week in week out.

In any event agree each of the above local teams hard to beat at home.

Leinster would go ok in Super Rugby if they could play all their games at home.

Looking at that, could you then say that the S15 teams or provincial teams were far superior because they've beaten the B&I Lions before?

I'm always a bit nervous when random one off games are plucked out of the air to help prove points. I'm not sure how much those games actually prove.

Yappy - yes they have beaten the Lions. Thats my point. It would be a good match up that the southern teams would probably come out on top on.

The results shown are just showing that the NH club players are capable of wins over the SH club players.

Did the lions lose any mid week games in the last tour? Seem to remember their mid week teams doing quite well.

leinsterbaby wrote:Did the lions lose any mid week games in the last tour? Seem to remember their mid week teams doing quite well.

A draw with the Emerging Boks, no losses.

Portnoy wrote:

red_stag wrote: Tigers are not the be and end all Portnoy - no better or worse than other clubs.

That is not my point Staggy.

These friendlies are supposed to be warm-ups for the sides and there is a gate fee to watch.
Tigers fans were short-changed. Which is why I had a rant about it on v1.

There's supposed to be a degree of symbiotic pleasure - not the feeling of being a host to a parasite.

Playing friendlies against the top Irish provinces is a sure-fire recipe for disappointment. That's why I shouted 'never again'.

Absolutely unreal - I think somebody has developed a bit of a chip on their shoulder towards Irish rugby after 7 out of 8 wins against England and 4 Heineken Cups in the last 6 seasons.