Relative merits of McIlroy and Murray

[note by Davie: The following posts which descended into a discussion on the relative merits of Andy Murray and Rory McIlroy were split off another topic where they were largely irrelevant to the topic in question, but which were interesting enough to retain them in their own right]


McIlroy's far from mediocre, I agree. If he was then the BBC would hype him up more.

As for Murray - top 3 and then the rest of the tennis world. Murray is just part of the 4 and downwards in the rankings...

Harrison,

Murray is certainly a better tennis player than McIlroy is a golfer. He's unfortunate just to be a few percent behind the top dogs, and those four are miles ahead of the rest, but we've seen how Djokovic can go from outsider to top dog, Murray could certainly do something similar, he's easily as talented as them, just lacks the mental edge.

super_realist wrote:
Murray is certainly a better tennis player than McIlroy is a golfer.

Come back to me on that one when Murray wins a slam

Sharrison, if you want to go on 2011 tennis form then there is really just a top 2 and then another 2 and then everyone else.
Federer is one final, one semi and q/f this year in slams, Murray is two semis and a final. Murray having his best slam year and on the way up, Federer after a great career on the way down. Certainly nothing to suggest that in 2011 Federer is any better than Murray anyway.

That's the problem though Diggers, non tennis viewers (or those that only watch Wimbledon) could be excused for not realising just how good a player Murray is, in fact he's probably the top British sportsman in mainstream sport (not sure golf can be counted as a proper sport in the strictest sense). He consistently beats the top players and has a very respectable number of tournaments to his name, certainly a better win ratio than McIlroy at present.

Delighted we agree for a change.

super_realist wrote:Harrison,

Murray is certainly a better tennis player than McIlroy is a golfer. He's unfortunate just to be a few percent behind the top dogs, and those four are miles ahead of the rest, but we've seen how Djokovic can go from outsider to top dog, Murray could certainly do something similar, he's easily as talented as them, just lacks the mental edge.

He could just as easily do a Garcia and go from the top back to the bottom. I'm afraid that to put him in the same sentence as Djokovic, Nadal and Federer is just insulting. Murray is a similar age to Djokovic and Nadal who have won 10(?) and 3(?) slams respectively and Federer had won something like 5 by the time he was 25. Murray is a long way off and I'd even say his recent big loses at Wimbeldon last year and the Australian this year have left him in a poorer mental state than a couple of years ago. No grace or class like the other three either...

No grace or class? Do you ever watch Tennis?, he might be monotone in interview but he's always respectful, gracious and complimentary to the other player.

He isn't as good as Nadal or Djokovic at present, but he certainly can be.

Sharrison have you watched any tennis recently??

Murray abilitywise is more than a match for any player on the planet, sadly he seems to lack something mentally, but he will make the breakthrough, just as Djokovic did!

super_realist wrote:No grace or class? Do you ever watch Tennis?, he might be monotone in interview but he's always respectful, gracious and complimentary to the other player.

He isn't as good as Nadal or Djokovic at present, but he certainly can be.

Fist pumps when the other player makes an unforced error shows no grace or class. It just shows him to be the child that he is...

And surely stating that he could be as good as the best would also apply to a certain Ricky Fowler or a young Sergio Garcia. Until he steps up we will never know.

JDandfries wrote:Sharrison have you watched any tennis recently??

Murray abilitywise is more than a match for any player on the planet, sadly he seems to lack something mentally, but he will make the breakthrough, just as Djokovic did!

Why would everyone assume that he will get that mentality?!? The other three had it at earlier in their careers than Murray and surely that winning mentality is the difference between winning slams and not winning slams? I think that his mentality in the slams has actually got weaker as a couple of years ago he raised his game to push the better players- he now seems to play worse when up against it.

Nonsense, Fowler has never done anything to suggest he's capable of stepping up. He's never even won a tournament. Sergio and Murray have beaten the best and won huge tournaments. Their potential is clear and is often realised. Fowler is just someone who "might" one day be a player.

Murray also does not applaud mistakes, rather that when he forces an error from his opponent. It's his good play he's backing up with a "fist pump" not laughing at his opponent for making it. You won't see him doing that on a double fault or anything like that.

Yeah, he is of course the only guy who does that.......
Murray is up against certainly two all time greats (though Federer is sliding)and a guy playing like an all time great this year. McIlroy does not have to beat that kind of talent right now to win a major.
Id say its tougher for Murray but he is undoubtably very popular on tour with a lot of players and is a very gracious loser.
I think he was won something like 7 Masters events, thats like say Westwood winning 7 WGC events. Like thats ever going to happen......

I really do not like Murray as a person but do hope that he does step up and win some slams if only to improve the standard of tennis in Britain for the future. However, his mental strength is nothing compared with Rory's. To come back from Augusta with his head held high and win the US is an example of the kind of mental strength that Murray needs to find.

Can we get back to the golf, if you want to talk about Murray, please go to the Tennis forum. ....

There are a lot of off-topic police about. I think it is relevant as we are comparing one potentially top player of Golf with a top player of tennis.

sharrison01 wrote:I really do not like Murray as a person but do hope that he does step up and win some slams if only to improve the standard of tennis in Britain for the future. However, his mental strength is nothing compared with Rory's. To come back from Augusta with his head held high and win the US is an example of the kind of mental strength that Murray needs to find.

That is very clear!!!

Murray lost a French Open semi against Nadal and actually won more points, and if you have watched any tennis, you would know that Djokovic had (A FEW YEARS AGO) similar problems that Murray is facing now!

SetupDeterminesTheMotion wrote:Can we get back to the golf, if you want to talk about Murray, please go to the Tennis forum. ....

If that is all you have to add? Then why bother?

super_realist wrote:There are a lot of off-topic police about. I think it is relevant as we are comparing one potentially top player of Golf with a top player of tennis.

Whats a top Tennis player & a Top Golfer got in common. One wins & the other disnae.

Its such an irrelevant topic: whats Murray got to do with the topic :

BETS FOR THE OPEN.

If you want to compare Murray & McIlroy create a new topic.

SetupDeterminesTheMotion wrote:

super_realist wrote:There are a lot of off-topic police about. I think it is relevant as we are comparing one potentially top player of Golf with a top player of tennis.

Whats a top Tennis player & a Top Golfer got in common. One wins & the other disnae.

Its such an irrelevant topic: whats Murray got to do with the topic :

BETS FOR THE OPEN.

If you want to compare Murray & McIlroy create a new topic.

That'll be Murray that wins then.

JDandfries wrote:

sharrison01 wrote:I really do not like Murray as a person but do hope that he does step up and win some slams if only to improve the standard of tennis in Britain for the future. However, his mental strength is nothing compared with Rory's. To come back from Augusta with his head held high and win the US is an example of the kind of mental strength that Murray needs to find.

That is very clear!!!

Murray lost a French Open semi against Nadal and actually won more points, and if you have watched any tennis, you would know that Djokovic had (A FEW YEARS AGO) similar problems that Murray is facing now!

I'm pretty sure that I am not alone in my distaste for Murray as a person but can at least look at his performances objectively. It is easy for everyone to point to his mental game needing addressing and the fact that Djokovic was in the same position as Murray a couple of years ago but surely sport is littered with a poor mental side holding back careers and examples of players that have overcome or been ruined by this. There is constant debate on here about Westwood having the mental game to win majors or Tiger having a less likeable persona that make people revel in his failure. I honestly wish Murray avery success despite my dislike for him but he has shown me very little in the slams to show that he has what it takes. It is of course a matter of opinion until he shows otherwise and maybe efforts spent questioning my knowledge or viewing of tennis would be better spent looking objectively at his game. Otherwise you may as well just get caught up with the BBC hype...

So numerous semi finals and two final appearnces in slams, is classed as showing nothing to suggest he has what it takes?

JDandfries wrote:So numerous semi finals and two final appearnces in slams, is classed as showing nothing to suggest he has what it takes?

Is the same question not at the source of debate about Westwood winning a major? Numerous top 5's over the past couple of years in the majors but nothing to show for it. I can't see how you would be surprised by this opinion especially when he has looked completely outclassed when he has lost in the latter stages of the slams. To me it just seems like he plays like the best in the world against lesser players and then cannot reproduce this form when it matters. His performances in the Australian and Wimbledon finals were bordering on embarrassing it was so one sided.

Three finals JD. Two Australian and one US.

He's beaten Nadal twice in slam semis. That not count ? Id like to have seen how McIlroys mental strength at the US would have held up if he was up against another golfer who was an all time great playing really well.
In terms on on court behaviour Nadal and Djokovic are famed for the slow ball bounce and the injury breaks. Murray doesnt do any of that.
He strikes me as a very modest young man (bought a Ferrari and felt like a prat in it so sent it back....good lad) who is apparently one of the funniest and most erudite tweeters if you like that kind of thing.
Three slam finals isnt hype, it shows he is an elite player.

super_realist wrote:Three finals JD. Two Australian and one US.

And in all of them he played worse than in the matches getting there. This shows his mental weakness, which we have all established is holding him back, but what is there to suggest he can find the mental strength to win a final in a slam? My opinion is that he has been so outclassed in his slam finals that he is now mentally weaker than a couple of years ago, much like Garcia showed after losing The Open and PGA playoffs. At least Rory took his Augusta experience and improved because of it - Murray is showing no such progress.

Ivanisevic was one of my favourite ever players because he got beaten in three finals then came back and won it in great style. There is a precedent for such things so there's no reason why Murray couldn't do the same.
I think people are way too harsh on Murray, alongside Donald, Westwood, McIlroy, Cavendish etc he's amongst Britains top sportsmen, but he's rarely given credit, possibly because he's in a sport which has a larger contingent of armchair once a year "Come on Tim" type supporters who know very little about the game much like we have with our "there is no golf without Tiger" golf "fans".

But Rory didnt have anyone putting him under pressure at the US, until he is under pressure who knows how he will play in a major, he could crumble again like he did at Augusta.
Also if Rory finishes 34th this week dowe assume he was a one hit wonder ?

super_realist wrote:Ivanisevic was one of my favourite ever players because he got beaten in three finals then came back and won it in great style. There is a precedent for such things so there's no reason why Murray couldn't do the same.
I think people are way too harsh on Murray, alongside Donald, Westwood, McIlroy, Cavendish etc he's amongst Britains top sportsmen, but he's rarely given credit, possibly because he's in a sport which has a larger contingent of armchair once a year "Come on Tim" type supporters who know very little about the game much like we have with our "there is no golf without Tiger" golf "fans".

I must admit that I know nothing about cycling and can't help thinking that Cavendish is lauded for achieving virtually nothing of great significance. His stage wins appear to me (as I said, I know sweet fa about cycling) to be like leading after the first round of a golf tournament. Well done and all that, but the tournament/race is what you're trying to win. It's always appeared to me that Cavendish wins the bits he specialises in (sprints? hills? not sure) but is comparitively rubbish at everything else, so why people get excited is beyond me?

SR, I agree that there is no reason that he can't find the mental game but my opinion is that he is further from finding it now than he was a couple of years ago.

I also think that I am being far more objective in my opinions about Murray than you are with yours about Tiger. I dislike Murray similarly to your dislike for Tiger but I can at least respect where he is in his career and form an opinion on it. Your constant "Tiger hating" at any opportunity is far more biased than my opinions on Murray.

And Diggers, Rory's capitulation at August with no one to blame but himself is far more difficult to come back from than getting beaten by a better player. To even attempt to criticise his US Open win by saying that there was a lack of top players competing with him is beyond ridiculous.

Its because you know nothing about cycling. Cav is a legend on the continent where they love their bikers, the Tour is not just about the overall race, there is the points jersy and the king of the mountains and best young rider, all of them mean a lot as do stage wins which are an awful lot hard to achieve than you might think. Cav is now 8th on the all time winners list so is doing OK id say.

Both superb, love watching the two of them, both bringing a different dimension to their sport.

No shame for Murray to be #4 in the world, closing in on #3. Certainly the best male British tennis player in my time, no comparison - and no, I don't go back to Fred Perry.

Early days yet with Rory; a thrill to watch but one putting lesson has so far yielded one Major. Will the magic fade from his putter? If so, he'll become just another top class golfer. If the putting magic remains, the sky's the limit.

Congrats to them both for the thrills so far!

What saying there are currently better players playing tennis than golf....who you wil have to actually face and beat....is ridiculous ?
Id say facing up to the fact that to win a slam you have to beat all time greats is a pretty big mental hurdle. Like I say lets see how Rory does when he is coming down the back 9 with someone else in contention ,we can see how much bottle he has then.
Also you keep saying Murray played worse in the finals he has reached. Have you actually considered he was playing better players than those he beat en route to the final......it does make a bit of a difference.

Diggers wrote:Its because you know nothing about cycling. Cav is a legend on the continent where they love their bikers, the Tour is not just about the overall race, there is the points jersy and the king of the mountains and best young rider, all of them mean a lot as do stage wins which are an awful lot hard to achieve than you might think. Cav is now 8th on the all time winners list so is doing OK id say.

Thanks Diggers, that's the sort of info we don't get in the general coverage. Still can't get excited about junkies on push bikes though.

While Rory's meltdown at Augusta was highly unexpected (to me at least) his immediate rebound and domination of the US Open showed some tremendous fortitude.

There a lots of very good golfers, but very few great ones like Nicklaus, Woods, Faldo, Seve, Hogan. Rory, barring an injury, I predict will be one of the greats when it's all said and done.

There's an old but good Cycling movie called "Stars and Water Carriers" which explains the team aspect of the sport pretty well.

No, agree about the doping side, its a real mess but seems like its the culture of the sport.
Just to add as well Cav has won the Milan - San Remo which is one of the classic events on the calendar and quite a big deal in the cycling world.

Diggers wrote:What saying there are currently better players playing tennis than golf....who you wil have to actually face and beat....is ridiculous ?
Id say facing up to the fact that to win a slam you have to beat all time greats is a pretty big mental hurdle. Like I say lets see how Rory does when he is coming down the back 9 with someone else in contention ,we can see how much bottle he has then.
Also you keep saying Murray played worse in the finals he has reached. Have youactually considered he was playing better players than those he beat en route to the final......it does make a bit of a difference.

Better players than those that he faced in the final? Really? My point was that Murray has been beaten by better players which he would have known could happen so would have gone into those matches believing that he could be win but knowing that there was no shame in losing. A big bit of Rory must have thought that he would be walking away with that green jacket and the disappointment of not doing so coupled with the shame in which the way that he lost it could have broken many a man. He took it on the chin, didn't shy away from the media and came out the following week in some mickey mouse event in Asia when all he probably wanted to do was hide away and not see a soul. Your point about him not being able to hold off the challenge of a top class player is as moot as those opinions that Murray will find the mental strength to step up - until they happen no one will know. Rory has at least learnt from his loses very quickly and made amends by winning a major. Murray has done nothing of the sort.

Rory did indeed take it on the chin, just the same as Murray has done when he has lost.
I dont actually believe that Murray is any better the McIlroy (Ido think he is way better than Westwood and Donald though) but a lot of that belief is based on Rorys potential still and also measuring him against other players competing. I think right now is a pretty good time for Rory as he doesnt have to in golf terms beat the likes of Federer, Djoko and Nadal.

The difference between the two is that Rory is just starting out his career and has already won a major whereas Murray is arguably behind the curve compared with the other three, who had already won much more at his age. IMO, Murray is more like Westwood in that he needs to find that winning mentality to step up and win a major/slam.

Id compare Murrays career to having to win while two players around the standard of a peak Tiger were winning everything and then another guy comes along and has one of the best year records of all time in Djoko.
Sure you can only beat whats in front of you but IMO Murray has a lot more to contend with than McIlroy.

To suggest that Murray is not a top player is simply absurd. The way in which he obliterated Roddick at Queens (a five time winner) was probably the tennis performance of the year so far. There were virtually no mistakes in that performance at all, and he simply didn't give his opponent a chance.

And for me, to bracket him with Djokovic, Nadal and Federer is absurd. If he was playing so well when he beat Roddick and performed so clinically against Gasquet and Lopez then why did he play so poorly against an injured Nadal? Again, it goes back to his mental strength and Rory has at least shown that he has the mental strength to step up when he needs to.

As for comparing what Murray has had to face in comparison to Rory, I go back to my opinion that Westwood would be a better comparison. He has also played solidly and lost to better players that were able to step up and perform when they needed to. Garcia could be another comparable that I hope Murray does not suffer as he too had all the talent in the world but could not make it count.

Westwood has never won a competition when all the best players have competed, not one. Murray has won 7 Masters and beat the top players in doing so. I think he is a street ahead of Westwood personally.
Would you compare McIlroy to Woods ? I wouldnt, Nadal and Federer are the equal of Woods and are both still around and winning. So we have to compare what Murray has to currently beat in teh top 3 to what Rory has to beat.......there is no comparison. Murray has it way way tougher.

Nadal wasn't injured, if you watch tennis you'd know that Nadal is very partial to gamesmanship as is Djokovic and both pull this injury/time wasting trick rather too much to be genuine, in fact Murray played superbly in the first set, certainly better than Nadal did, and if (and I know it's an if) that forehand at 15-30 in the second set had gone in, I'm sure it could have been a different outcome. Murray lacks the mental edge by a few percent granted, but every commentator and journalist will tell you that technically he is right up there with the others, and also the best returner in the game.

I also wouldn't say that McIlroy has stood up when he needs to, he's only won three tournaments, so what happens to all the other times he's competed but he hasn't raised his mental level. He conveniently didn't at The Open last year shooting low 60's then something wretched din the 80's on day two.

But McIlroy is very young to be winning majors whereas Murray should really have won one by now. I agree that technically Murray is up there but then how many players can strike an iron as well as Garcia, even when his head's not in it?

Winning Masters titles is like winning European and US tour events so if you believe beating the best in these to be akin to winning majors then thats fine. I personally think that majors are far more important as are slams and the simple fact is that Rory has won one after being humiliated in one. This meant that he learnt a great deal from this experience and used it, has massive courage and has balls the size of beach balls. Murray should learn from this as he has shown little progress mentally after big losses.

Del Potro has won a major, does that make him better than Murray, whereas Curtis and Hamilton have won majors does that make them better than Westwood or Donald. Of course it doesn't.

We'll have to wait a very long time to have a player as good from this country as we have in Murray, there really is no need to get on his back and say he's not good enough.
I'm certain it will happen, he's been beaten in three finals and each time he's come back and played better and better.
I don't believe McIlroy is being that brave, he's a professional sportsmen and playing your best is part of the game he just happened to be the best at the US Open that week, sadly Murray has been second best three times, doesn't make him a bad player or a lesser player than McIlroy.
The difference in tennis is that someone else has a bearing upon how you play and what influence you put on the game, in golf nothing anyone else can do can affect how well you play. It's man against the course, not man against man.

SR, I'm not getting on his back at all. We can all agree that technically Murray is good enough to win a slam but it is his mental side that is holding him back - I just haven't seen anything to suggest that his mental game is improving. Yes it was a great achievement to get to three slam finals but he was beaten comprehensively in straight sets in all three and never even looked like competing - compare this to how he played in the rest of those tournaments to get there and it showed that the occasion was just too big for him. The same could have been said about Rory last year at The Open and this year's Masters but he has at least managed to improve on those experiences. It's not as if Murray lost his first slam final comprehensively and has then learnt from that experience to compete better in the subsequent finals - he looked just as out of his depth in those despite being more experienced.

To say that McIlroy has not shown a lot of courage is just ridiculous. Yes, he is a professional sportsman but he is also a 22 year old kid and professional sportsmen that are far older and more experienced than him have not come back from far less an embarrassment. Of course the nature of winning a tennis tournament and a golf tournament are different but I personally believe that winning a major takes a lot more mental strength than winning a slam because if you lose a slam to a better player then you can at least be philosophical about it and accept that you were beaten by a better player - in golf there is no-one else to blame, as you quite rightly pointed out.

I also agree that Murray has been our best tennis player in my lifetime and may even be the best British player that I ever see. I think that Murray's success could affect this though as if he can step up and win some slams then maybe the support and interest in future young players will be better than he has had to deal with.

Don't understand why we all can't just applaud both, still both full of promise and years (decades for Rory hopeflly) more of entertainment from the two of them.

But Del Potro's US Open win was no fluke, certainly not in the same breath as Curtis and/or Hamilton. I'd be more surprised if DP doesn't win another Major than if AM doesn't win.

Harrison, he was beaten by someone who played better on the day, I'm sure he'll one day be the player who is better adn win at least one, he's too good a player not to win one.
McIlroy will doubtless come up against people who will play better on their day too, the truth is that Mcilroy has only been in contention in a handful of events so far winning convincingly in Quail Hollow and this years US Open, and that is it ,there are many more in which he's been miles away or curmbled just in the way you suggest that Murray has done, where were his balls and courage in those competitions?

The last 20 golf Majors have been won by 14 different players with Tiger winning 4, Harrington 3 and Cabrera 2, who are ranked 19th, 57th and 75 respectively.... so there is no dominant players and the majors are spread around quite a lot...

The last 20 Tennis Grand Slams have been won by just 4 players, Nadal 8, Federer 8, Djokovic 3 and Del Potro 1, with Nadal ranked 2, Federer 3 and Djokovic 1.

My point is i think its a lot easier for a golfer to win a Major than a tennis player to win a Slam...at least in recent years..

McIlroy is a fantastic talent, but on the face of it his acheivements (1 PGA win, 1 Euro Win, 1 runaway Major win) only just surpass that of Louis Oosthuizen (2 Euro wins, 1 runaway Major win)...so he's hardly seperated himself has he?

I'm not saying Murray has, but i thinks it much harder for him given the nature of the game and the nature of the opposition...

Kwini, I agree. I don't like Murray as a person but respect his talents and hope that for British sport he does reach the top. I just think that Rory has shown the type of mental strength that Murray might learn from because he seems to have learnt from his experiences much more quickly than Murray is doing. There is of course a big time factor as well, with Murray having a comparatively small shelf life due to the physical nature of tennis. In this respect, Rory has a far better opportunity to be a legend of the sport and it would be great to see it happen.