Westwood's Putting

First topic message reminder :

Is it as bad as I think, or is it just that he hits it close more often and so seems to miss more makeable putts?

mystiroakey wrote:
Some stats from the Masters

Mickleson 107 putts
Garcia 114 putts
Lee 128 putts

I find it telling that LW took 14 more putts than Sergio! If Garcia has turned his putting around, then I see no reason why Lee can't...

Not that he's consistently terrible with the flat stick - he's been world #1 for goodness sake, has been known to post scores like 62/64 (or whatever they were in the opening rounds of one of the Far East tournaments last year)... You don't do those sort of things unless you're a decent putter, surely.

Skydriver wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:
Some stats from the Masters

Mickleson 107 putts
Garcia 114 putts
Lee 128 putts

I find it telling that LW took 14 more putts than Sergio! If Garcia has turned his putting around, then I see no reason why Lee can't...

Not that he's consistently terrible with the flat stick - he's been world #1 for goodness sake, has been known to post scores like 62/64 (or whatever they were in the opening rounds of one of the Far East tournaments last year)... You don't do those sort of things unless you're a decent putter, surely.

lee westwood hit 14 more greens than sergio, so thats allready wiped the difference out completly. I think westy actually putted better than sergio overall and surely under the tourny circumstances as well. Its very easy to putt half decently when you arnt in with a shout of the event. however westy hold a few clutch putts back 9 rd 3 and rd 4(missed a few as well mind)

not saying that westy putted well(far from it) but sergio putted poorly as well and he just derailed his game when things went bad- westy could have derailed rd 3 as well, he was all over the shop bk9 rd 3, however dug deep big time

Be interesting to see Poulters putting stats as his short game and putting has been very good this year.

yep however i think he is way down due to not playing enough and being ill- however he certainly has the feel when it comes to the masters- them chip shots he played on hole 12th and 15th(forgot what round) were out of this world

Averaging putts per round is a meaningless and useless stat. The more GIR, the more putts you are likely to take.

The only stat which really matters is the length of putts holed. Any player who comes in having holed more than 120 feet in putts is a good putter and likely to have a very good score.

George1507 wrote:Averaging putts per round is a meaningless and useless stat. The more GIR, the more putts you are likely to take.

The only stat which really matters is the length of putts holed. Any player who comes in having holed more than 120 feet in putts is a good putter and likely to have a very good score.

even that stat can become irrelevant as well(however as you say much more realistic than ave putts a round)

you could hole 1 100 footer in your round couldnt you and putt badlyu for 17 holes and still get 120 feet.

You could also be off your long game but still manage to hit parts of the greens and putt magnificiantly by 2 putting everything and only end up with 20 foot holed.

on the other hand(as westy does it) you could hit 15 shots to 30 foot in almost every round and only hole 4 of em, yet someone else who is an average ball striker could normally hit 8 shots to 30 foot and in yet normally hole 4 of em as well- both ahve same putts holed yet stats are scewed the situation.

however the above is more about a round by round basis or tourny by tourny basis- overall it will swing in roundabouts and the better putters will have the more length holed!

i think because westy has more makable putts it gets to him more- its normall for him to have 20 footer after 20 footer and then it becomes normal for him to miss em as well!

other players get abit more of a buzz by hitting quailty irons!

When was the last time Westwood holed four 30-footers in a round? Almost all his birdies at Augusta were from 10ft and in, and he missed a lot from that range too. He definitely wasn't putting well most of the week.

For anyone good enough to get to pro level, you'll have a decent putting stroke, and the rest is about confidence. Westwood misses too many very short putts, inside 5 feet. That affects his confidence over the longer ones, and he ends up not looking to hole anything from 15ft+ but just get it to tap in range. Which becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and he never does hole those longer ones. If I had to give him any advice I'd make him do drills over 5ft putts on the putting greens, and not let him go on to anything else until he'd holed 100 in a row. If he gets confidence from that range, the rest of his putting will take care of itself.

Even the best putters in the world would be lucky to hole 1 in 10 of 30 foot per round, so you can't blame Lee for missing many of them.

As mentioned above the putts per round is a little misleading given how many greens he hits but I think it is the distance that he makes them from. I remember quite a few from within 6 feet not going in and there were at least a couple from within a couple of feet which are total killers.

I suspect that if you looked at a stat that says what percentage he gets in from different distances then it wouldn't compare well. PMick wasn't getting that many of his chips stone dead but he was able to make the putt.

Also, when you look at improving (which Lee wants to/has to, to win majors) you have to look at your weaknesses and as he is the best at driving/GIR then you have to say the problems are around the green.

Lairdy, I agree that I think a lot is probably in his head but I think the short look is deliberate and the theory is that you do all your thinking/visualisation before you address the ball, then step in, quick glance and hit immediately without over thinking. Bit like if I asked you to throw me a ball you you use instinct rather than paralysing yourself with thoughts about how to do it.

I would also guess that once you start missing them Augusta is not a place to find your confidence and it becomes worse.

I saw Mark Roe analysing one of his missed putts and showed him being smooth in the practice swings then not on the stroke. Personally I struggled to see the difference but then I'm not a pro golfer.

super_realist wrote:Even the best putters in the world would be lucky to hole 1 in 10 of 30 foot per round, so you can't blame Lee for missing many of them.

i am tallking inside 30 foot approaches- most top pros average 4-5 birds a round, therefor they probally average 3-4 gir birds and 1-2 2 putt birds(anywhere between 1 foot to 30 foot would be the norm io would say)

most pros will hit on an average round about 5 way inside 30 foot- i suggest that westy hits way more than the average, but other top pros hole a larger percentage of the ones they do hit- which obviouisly stands to reason otherwise with westys long game he would win almost everything if he was as good as the top putters

Not sure there is what you'd call a tour average. There are people who hit a lot of greens but naturally have a lot of putts like Westwood and there are people with astonishing short games and very few putts like Donald.

I think it's a possibility that although Westwood hits a lot of greens he's perhaps hitting the wrong parts of the green and thus leaving difficult putts.
He should certainly be holing more of the 12 foot variety though.

well i am discouting the lesser players and only talking about the top, and i am discounting the shorter hitters- like the donalds who never would ever come close to reaching a birdie average of 1-2 2 putt birdies a round.

trying to put a perspective on it, but there are allways players that blow normalities out the window.

donald had one of the lowest total eagles last year- yet on the other hand was 4th in par 5 birdies or better!!

and off course backed that up with toping wedge up and down play.

there are other ways of doing things. however to get to donalds level the way he plays(driving isnt immense or that long or staright) yet to get the amount of bridies and lack of drop shots is astonishing.


I dont think westy hits the wrong part of the greens either, i really dont. he is so accurate that it would be very odd that he wouldnt know or be able to hit the right side of the holes

twoeightnine wrote:Lairdy, I agree that I think a lot is probably in his head but I think the short look is deliberate and the theory is that you do all your thinking/visualisation before you address the ball, then step in, quick glance and hit immediately without over thinking. Bit like if I asked you to throw me a ball you you use instinct rather than paralysing yourself with thoughts about how to do it.

I always maintain the last line you should see in your head is the line between your ball and the hole. There is no way he looks at his line from over the ball. Its all very well taking your time to look at a putt from all angles to figure out the line but your minds eye has to see that same line from the position you hit the putt from. He'd be better off chucking the slooow routine he has where he tip toes the putter ever closer in to the back of the ball (that tells me he's overthinking the techincal part ie getting his set up spot on everytime). Chuck that, get addressed quicker then get his eyes running up and down the line. The quick glance he gives the hole when over the ball is so utterly useless he might as well not do it.

Donald is 11th in eagles in 2012, so he can't be that bad.

really wow- he was 153rd in 2011 though!

He has the game to make eagles- he just didnt play for them last year!

and no he isnt bad- he is at present a very deserved world no.1

both players have the game to win majors and anywhere- the american commentary where very quick to negate donalds chances of ever winning a masters, its complete rubbish

and i think even the way westys putting is he still could win a couple of majors. he just needs to sort his chipping out- his putting isnt the best thats a given but it is good enough. Its his short game and i put his loss down to the chipping around the greens at the recent masters- as i said before holes 15 and twice on 13- where he could have gone in the water but didnt and might as well have(took 10 from 3 easyish chipping positions)!- didnt ride those moments given from the golfing gods

I don't think there is much wrong with his putting stroke, I think he can't read the putts as well. Not sure how you improve that, does Billy help him, not sure he does.

i think one of the big things about westy is his "clutch" putting/chipping.
yeah, he can putt well in thailand or the nedbank when theres very little pressure but he seems to get worse and worse the bigger the event gets.
im not buying anything about being bad at reading greens or missing pins on wrong side etc as he it only becomes a problem when its squeeky bum time

Did anyone see Donald's eagle on 15 on Sunday? Driver, driver, driver! That's how he does it. (Also shows how much shorter he is than others.)

First to middle of fairway, second just right of green about 3-4 yards off. Third driver like a putt into the hole.

I think I saw it on masters.com

I tried playing a hole with just my driver once but have a feeling that once I had nutted my approach into my friends behind the green I decided it was best to pick up!

hend085 wrote:the new pga stat for puts gained/lost on the field is the most telling one i think. anyone have these numbers available?
cant seem to find them on pgatour.com

http://www.pgatour.com/r/stats/info/?02564

I agree, best measure of a players putting performance.


Biggest surprise for me Sergio....

http://www.pgatour.com/r/stats/info/?02327 putting from 5-15 feet is probably a pretty good indicator, westwood 172/182

LastDamnation wrote:http://www.pgatour.com/r/stats/info/?02327 putting from 5-15 feet is probably a pretty good indicator, westwood 172/182

Good point-probally the best indicator of his problems


He is a player that probally hits more shots in gir to the that range, and a player that chips to that range as well!! therefore i reakon he actually has more 5-15 footers than most of the field therefore its magnified as well!

however has anyone noticed who is last!!

the only major winner of the year, yep its bubba!

twoeightnine wrote:Did anyone see Donald's eagle on 15 on Sunday? Driver, driver, driver! That's how he does it. (Also shows how much shorter he is than others.)

First to middle of fairway, second just right of green about 3-4 yards off. Third driver like a putt into the hole.

I think I saw it on masters.com

I tried playing a hole with just my driver once but have a feeling that once I had nutted my approach into my friends behind the green I decided it was best to pick up!

Are you sure ?

Diggers wrote:

twoeightnine wrote:Did anyone see Donald's eagle on 15 on Sunday? Driver, driver, driver! That's how he does it. (Also shows how much shorter he is than others.)

First to middle of fairway, second just right of green about 3-4 yards off. Third driver like a putt into the hole.

I think I saw it on masters.com

I tried playing a hole with just my driver once but have a feeling that once I had nutted my approach into my friends behind the green I decided it was best to pick up!

Are you sure ?

I assume you are referring to Donald not me !!

Go to www.masters.com and look up Luke Donald on the leaderboard. Drill down into his rounds scores and you will see the Eagle is in green, click on the circle and away you go. He tweeted (well his missus did and he forwarded) that it was three drivers. I think the only white club he has is the driver as well. The last one takes exceptional touch as it just crawls onto the green.

Fair enough , I'll take your word for it. Bet that doesn't happen too often, Ive rarely even seen him hit driver off the deck before. Monty used to do it every now and again, good shot to have in the bag.

tourny was over for him i suppose.

maybe he should take a few more risks!

He's never looked comfortable to me on putts or chips. The best short game players I've seen are smoooooth (Mickleson, Crenshaw, Seve etc etc); he looks pretty choppy to me with chips and putts. Can obviously cut it from time-to-time but it's definitely a weak point.
At least he's realised and has been working on it for a bit and plans to continue doing so. With that and his training, I'm not sure anyone could expect any more - he'll either win one or he won't.

Aye, but i have a feeling he could and will win more than 1!!

If anyone saw Westwood play the 2nd at Jakarta this morning, it's pretty clear that it's his chipping that's the worst part of his game. He blamed a photographer but he played the shot with so much loft when it was clearly a chip and run shot that I was astounded how high he hit it and so not surprised it stopped, where he apparently was. He did well to 2 putt there and especially on the next. Kwini has said for a long while that it's his scoring on the par 5s that lets him down, and I make him absolutely right.

I think I'm going to be back here now, hopefully the admins are a bit better these days?

SJ, Welcome back! Admin's have scarcely been seen.
And no-one here has gone out of their way to wind them up.
Benign neglect works!

Strange thing for me with the putting of Westwood:

When he's putting well, he never looks as if he'll miss anything inside about 12 feet.
When he's putting poorly, he never looks as if he'll make a thing.
Something to do with what seems to me a very square set up.

I feel as if Harrington can be like that sometimes also, though of course he's somewhat less mechanical and a far better chipper.

Ta Kwini, good to hear things have calmed down. Davie's site's ok but just a bit too quiet, particularly when there's no fantasy comp running for the week.

You're right that he's streaky, but I get the feeling it's more to do with read than stroke. If he gets on greens he can read well, he's a different player.

Not entirely clear what's happened in Jakarta but it seems he's won by 8 over 54 holes. Evidently the greens there suit him!

SJ,
Can be quiet here too, would be great to have most of the others back.
Fantasy game here runs from WGC MatchPlay thru WGC's, Majors and Players ending with the PGA Championship.
None of us are setting the world on fire so join in for The Players in 2 1/2 weeks.

kwinigolfer wrote:SJ,
Can be quiet here too, would be great to have most of the others back.

welcome back sj, hope your return opens the floodgates.

Cheers bb. There's really not much activity over there, more on the non- golf parts than the golf board itself but even there it's pretty quiet. As such even if everyone decided to come back here it'd hardly be an influx!

aye - a good few much missed contributors though.
on the plus side, some interesting characters have popped up to fill the void that was left.

Welcome back SJ

Global moderator?
That sounds like a big job.