The Genius of PBF Top 50 Heavyweights of all time

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Joe Louis
4. Jack Johnson
5. Larry Holmes
6. George Foreman
7. Jim Jeffries
8. Jack Dempsey
9. Joe Frazier
10. Rocky Marciano
11. Sonny Liston
12. Evander Holyfield
13. Sam Langford
14. Gene Tunney
15. Mike Tyson
16. Riddick Bowe
17. Wladimir Klitschko
18. Vitali Klitschko
19. Joe Walcott
20. Ezzard Charles
21. Ken Norton
22. Max Schmeling
23. Max Baer
24. Harry Wills
25. Peter Jackson
26. James J. Corbett
27. John L. Sullivan
28. Joe Jeanette
29. Michael Spinks
30. Floyd Patterson
31. Bob Fitzsimmons
32. Archie Moore
33. Jimmy Young
34. Jerry Quarry
35. Ron Lyle
36. Earnie Shavers
37. Tim Witherspoon
38. Ernie Terrell
39. Cleveland Williams
40. James Douglas
41. Jimmy Ellis
42. George Chuvalo
43. Ingemar Johansson
44. David Tua
45. Ike Ibeabuchi
46. Chris Byrd
47. Primo Carnera
48. Sam McVea
49. Larry Gains
50. Michael Moorer

After studying a lot of heavyweights of the past in recent times I decided to make a top 50 list...After the top 30 I struggled for the last 20 spots.

Feel free to be critical of my list and if convinced I will change the list...You can also add your own list.

I respect the amount of work you have put into this.
Seriously, how on earth is David Haye on this. Both Henry Cooper & Joe Bugner would have dealt with him easily.

Is this in order? How do you have Lewis 2nd?

Admire you trying to get as far as 50.

Let's be honest, the heavyweights have just about the least depth of all the classic eight divisions. For large swathes of history, the division has been downright poor, rescued only occasionally by a champion with real star quality, as personalities as much as boxers (Johnson, Dempsey, Marciano). The incredible 15-year talent surge that coincides with Ali's championship career is the exception, rather than the rule.

The key question is this: Of those heavyweights, how many would you put in an all-time pound for pound top 50? Ali, of course, Louis virtually certainly. Any others? Not really.

With the heavyweights, one can come up with a meaningful top 20. After that, there is an awful lot of Scotch mist, blubber and hot air of more or less equal merit.

Eyetoldyouso wrote:I respect the amount of work you have put into this.
Seriously, how on earth is David Haye on this. Both Henry Cooper & Joe Bugner would have dealt with him easily.

I think Haye beats Bruno...Cant see Cooper and Bugner lasting the distance with Bruno let alone Haye...too much speed and power.

d260005p wrote:Is this in order? How do you have Lewis 2nd?

Yes...no heavyweights record can compare to Ali's so you have to have him as number one...Lewis beat everyone he faced and on a head to head basis I would back him to beat everyone apart from Frazier.

Bugner not only lasts the distance with Haye (he did after all go 12 with Frazier in a seriously competitive fight), but tans the preening one's backside for him. In no way does Haye punch hard enough to get Bugner out of there, and I can see the world's greatest prognosticator in full retreat for a good part of the bout, not unlike his "effort" against Klitschko.

The genius of PBF wrote:

Eyetoldyouso wrote:I respect the amount of work you have put into this.
Seriously, how on earth is David Haye on this. Both Henry Cooper & Joe Bugner would have dealt with him easily.

I think Haye beats Bruno...Cant see Cooper and Bugner lasting the distance with Bruno let alone Haye...too much speed and power.

Also didn't Bruno knock out Bugner?

Bruno knocked out the ghost of Bugner.

Lewis is way too high for me, through no fault of his own his record is lacking in mega names and am struggling to think of too many other guys in the top ten getting sparked by second tier guys not once but twice.

In terms of ommissions think both Sharkey's warrant inclusion.

rowley wrote:Lewis is way too high for me, through no fault of his own his record is lacking in mega names and am struggling to think of too many other guys in the top ten getting sparked by second tier guys not once but twice.

In terms of ommissions think both Sharkey's warrant inclusion.

Ditto.

Larry Gains, George Godfrey and Sam McVea would get my vote ahead of some of those on the original list, also.

bit unfair on haye 49th, he would have been in most peoples top 10 if he would have won his last fight, however i can understand why, but think someone who unified the cruisers then stepped up and showed he could bang with the big boys as well, except the top 2 who nobody has beat for years

not a bad top 20, lost interest after that... as the captain said, its a bit sparse in the lower regions! Not exactly as i'd have them, but I reckon if you picked lewis up and dropped him somewhere in the lower regions of the top 10, it wouldn't be a bad list.

The genius of PBF wrote:

d260005p wrote:Is this in order? How do you have Lewis 2nd?

Yes...no heavyweights record can compare to Ali's so you have to have him as number one...Lewis beat everyone he faced and on a head to head basis I would back him to beat everyone apart from Frazier.

Is that including Rahman? Could he have beaten a prime Tyson? Think he is ranked 10 in my eyes

Eddy not sure a win over Wlad would have put Haye in anyone's top ten, his record would still be seriously sparse. All academic anyway because ultimately we can only judge guys on what they did rather than what they might have done and the truth is Haye did not win his last fight, he lost it, comfortably it should also be added.

eddyfightfan wrote:bit unfair on haye 49th, he would have been in most peoples top 10 if he would have won his last fight, however i can understand why, but think someone who unified the cruisers then stepped up and showed he could bang with the big boys as well, except the top 2 who nobody has beat for years

There is no way Haye would be in anyone's top ten, that's crazy talk. This is a heavyweights list, his exploits at cruiser count for nowt. His record is heavyweight is 4-1.

Got to agree Union Ruslan Chagaev does not make the top fifty (rightly I should add) he also has a win over Valuev and a loss to Wlad, he also beat a better Ruiz than Haye and you'd have to say his win over Sprott trumps Haye's win over Audley. Truth is Haye's record at heavy is pretty poor, for me he is lucky to make the top fifty.

I am not sure David Haye would make a top 50 of people called David.

His record at HW is nothing to write home about and can only really claim a solid ranking at CW.

On the bright side though, we have a list of names from PBF that doesn't have Floyd at the top.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:I am not sure David Haye would make a top 50 of people called David.

His record at HW is nothing to write home about and can only really claim a solid ranking at CW.

On the bright side though, we have a list of names from PBF that doesn't have Floyd at the top.

Just for that snipe Floyd Patterson becomes number one.

No Tommy Burns?

But Haye/Moorer and some equally pap names make it in?!?

Genius of PBF, i request a swift change to your list.

rowley wrote:Got to agree Union Ruslan Chagaev does not make the top fifty (rightly I should add) he also has a win over Valuev and a loss to Wlad, he also beat a better Ruiz than Haye and you'd have to say his win over Sprott trumps Haye's win over Audley. Truth is Haye's record at heavy is pretty poor, for me he is lucky to make the top fifty.

Chagaev may have a win over a better Ruiz but no heavyweight in their prime should have trouble beating Ruiz and as we know Chagaev struggled badly...Also Haye became the 2nd man to stop Ruiz.

Haye also fared better against Wlad and didn't quit on his stool.

coxy0001 wrote:No Tommy Burns?

But Haye/Moorer and some equally pap names make it in?!?

Genius of PBF, i request a swift change to your list.

Will do, give me time im having a review of yours, windy's and rowleys suggestions.

To be honest I wouldn't have either of them in there, but was more illustrating that Haye's record if indeed it is better, is only a cigarette paper better than a guy I am guessing you didn't give a thought of putting in. Would prefer to have Willard or, as Coxy mentioned Burns in there before Haye.

The genius of PBF wrote:Also Haye became the 2nd man to stop Ruiz.

Haye stopped the ghost of Ruiz.

No way that Ibeabuchi did enough to merit inclusion. LaStarza (amongst others) ahead of him for sure.

7. Jim Jeffries
8. Jack Dempsey

Not top 10

Dempsey boderline top 10 and Jeffries Not in top 20 for me
Holyfield in top 10 and Tyson similar ranking to marciano,

Much, Much better list than Bert Sugars

KO-KING wrote:7. Jim Jeffries
8. Jack Dempsey

Not top 10

Dempsey boderline top 10 and Jeffries Not in top 20 for me
Holyfield in top 10 and Tyson similar ranking to marciano,

Much, Much better list than Bert Sugars

Dear god not again

Jeffries was useless of course whereas Holyfield is top ten?

KO-KING wrote:7. Jim Jeffries
8. Jack Dempsey

Not top 10

Dempsey boderline top 10 and Jeffries Not in top 20 for me
Holyfield in top 10 and Tyson similar ranking to marciano,

Much, Much better list than Bert Sugars

Come on then KO-KING, lets have the 20 (or more) guys that should be ranked above Jim then? Genuinely interested in what you come up with.

Fitzsimmons, Corbett, Sharkey and Ruhlin many more than once. Outside of Ali can we name many heavies with a better set of names on his ledger.

Peter Jackson as well. All within the space of 22 fights.

Not forgetting Jackson as well

Don't really count Jackson, was getting on and from what I understand was a borderline alcoholic by that point, for me means little more than Khan's win over Barrera

Balls to you then.

Just about every active historian rates Jeffries among the greatest heavyweights. Fellow fighters Jim Corbett, Jack Dempsey, Tommy Burns, Willie Ritchie, Tom Sharkey and Jack Johnson each called him the greatest heavyweight of all-time. So did promoter Tex Rickard and modern day historian Tracy Callis, who is an elector to the IBHOF.

Sam Langford, one of the greatest fighters who ever drew breath, once advertised in national newspapers that he would fight any man in the world except Jim Jeffries.

Am just wary of incurring Dave's not inconsiderable ire, if he ever returns from his period of Haye induced mourning that is.

Lewis is far too high. Would not warrant at top 20 place let alone be number 2. Two loses against middling opposition, even if they were righted later on.

Also, Does this exclude current fighters? If not, why not a Klitchko in the top 50 at least? There are a few in between 40 and 50 who I would say would be beaten every time by either brother.

HumanWindmill wrote:

Sam Langford, one of the greatest fighters who ever drew breath, once advertised in national newspapers that he would fight any man in the world except Jim Jeffries.

To foillow up on this point and Marvin Hart who in his day faced everyone and anyone and for all his limitations could never be accused of lacking heart was often quoted for large parts of his career as saying he would face any fighter other than Jeffries. In fact having read a lot about that era it is often easy to overlook how dominant Jeffries was considered, most journalists when writing about fighters often said stuff along the lines of he is ready for anyone, except Jeffries obviously. It was widely accepted that even the great fighters of the day would fall short against the boilermaker.

BHB the brothers are at 17 and 18 mate

bhb001 wrote:Lewis is far too high. Would not warrant at top 20 place let alone be number 2. Two loses against middling opposition, even if they were righted later on.

Also, Does this exclude current fighters? If not, why not a Klitchko in the top 50 at least? There are a few in between 40 and 50 who I would say would be beaten every time by either brother.

So your seriously saying that Lewis wouldn't be top 20 then?

Didn't know that about Marvin Hart, jeff.

We live and learn.

bhb001, agree that Lewis is too high but he is comfortably a top 20 man just as Jeffries is.

rowley wrote:BHB the brothers are at 17 and 18 mate

Thanks for that. I was looking lower in the list. Wouldn't put them that high, but each to their own

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:bhb001, agree that Lewis is too high but he is comfortably a top 20 man just as Jeffries is.

I'll defer to you and Ghost on this one. I have a downer on Lewis as I think he is over rated, but I probably over compensate

Lewis has got to be anywhere between 4 and 8 for me

For me he is nine Ghosty, don't really worry about the lack of defining fights because is hardly his fault Bowe dumped the belt and also consider the phrase a bit silly if a career could be defined by one fight Douglas would be top ten or Laing would be an all time great for beating Duran. However the losses for me mark him down. Losing to second tier heavies twice in crushing fashion is just plain sloppy and not something I see many of the guys above him doing

bhb001 wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:bhb001, agree that Lewis is too high but he is comfortably a top 20 man just as Jeffries is.

I'll defer to you and Ghost on this one. I have a downer on Lewis as I think he is over rated, but I probably over compensate

Maybe he is, and your opinion is as valid as anyones, but a lot of good judges have him in a top 10, and although it is a touch easier to argue against this, I would say it is nigh on impossible to make a convincing argument for him being outside a top 20.

The losses would be more significant if they weren't overturned in rematches Jeff

Agree Ghosty he get massive respect for turning them over, in decent fashion I should add but that obviously does not change the fact that they happened. To lose once is maybe forgivable but to do it twice suggests a flaw for me and it is not so much the losses as I am far from a guy who thinks you're rubbish unless you're unbeaten but McCall and Rahman are pretty poor fighters.

Think the fact that he never really struggled against the better fighters he faced speaks volumes of his mentality, those losses are used against him in head to head match ups as well but can't see him making a mistake like that against any half decent heavyweight.

Totally agree Ghosty, head to head whilst I suspect Lewis would turn in some dull performances as he had a tendency to do when he had fear of an opponents power more than holds his own head to head, but do get the impression that on here there is a little much of a willingness to airbrush the defeats from Lewis' ledger when assessing him which we would not and do not give other fighters. (should add I am not referring to present company when I say this)