m

[king_carlos]

Sam Simmonds should be a 12.

With limited distribution and no kicking game... I hate to be a killjoy but he sounds a bit like Manu without the same power!

[king_carlos]

I'm pretty interested to see how Kenningham starts the season. The difficult second album but he looked to the manor born.

I really like the look of Kenningham. It's so rare to see players dominate tackles like that whilst so young. Sort of reminded me of Underhill when he came through with the Os or Tom Curry early on with Sale around 2017.

I think Kenningham has a bit more pace than Underhill though which is always useful.

Yet another talented openside to add to the list.

[Sgt_Pooly]

And herein lies some of our issues.

Underhill is 25 and Curry 23, and we're all talking about the next big thing!

[No 7&1/2]

And herein lies some of our issues.

Underhill is 25 and Curry 23, and we're all talking about the next big thing!

Yes and no. There are some areas where we have to move on now even though there's no one terrific coming through imminently cough 9 cough. But then there's young guys performing very well. Should those guys continue I think its right they come into conversation.

[formerly known as Sam]

I'm pretty interested to see how Kenningham starts the season. The difficult second album but he looked to the manor born.

I really like the look of Kenningham. It's so rare to see players dominate tackles like that whilst so young. Sort of reminded me of Underhill when he came through with the Os or Tom Curry early on with Sale around 2017.

I think Kenningham has a bit more pace than Underhill though which is always useful.

Yet another talented openside to add to the list.

What Kenningham could offer and which could jump him up the pecking order is the lineout jumping. At 6ft3 of he works on becoming a really good third or athletic option then he could find himself with a USP that Underhill just doesn't. I think Kenningham could become a really good 6.5 in the Robshaw mold (but quicker) for Quins and England. The flexibility to play with a 7 or as an openside again would be viewed favourably be Eddie. Evans was pulling up trees for Quins pre injury so a combination of the two could work and make Quins particularly annoying to play against.

[king_carlos]

Underhill and Curry would still be my first choice flank pairing when fit. They just offer so much defensively that you can guarantee will be useful from flankers every game. Breakdown work can be dependent on reffing interpretations. Lineout work dependent on opposition tactics. Carrying can be very dependent on how the game plays out. Making dominant tackles is useful in every game of rugby though and those two will do that all day.

1.Marler 2.LCD 3.Sinckler 4.Itoje 5.Lawes 6.Curry 7.Underhill 8.Vunipola
9.Randall 10.Smith 11.May 12.Farrell 13.Marchant 14.Watson 15.Nowell

16.George 17.Vunipola 18.Heyes 19.Martin 20.Earl 21.Youngs 22.Ford 23.Daly

That's the 23 I'm really hoping to see at some point this year.

[doctor_grey]

As I said before, I think Eddie Jones completely bolloxed up this past season. It was absolutely the perfect time to blood a lot of younger guys and see how they got on against more mature and established sides.

For the sake of discussion, let's say England had a poor Six Nations, with maybe only two wins (imagine!), but played a lot of younger players. Who would be bothered by that? And then England would have a better idea which wild cards might be in the mix for the next RWC. Major opportunity lost.

[No 7&1/2]

Same could be said of the next one doc. As it is its England so the aim is to always win the next game with continuous development. I see no reason where 4 or 5 younger players can't be introduced and for us to win anyway.

[Soul Requiem]

Underhill and Curry would still be my first choice flank pairing when fit. They just offer so much defensively that you can guarantee will be useful from flankers every game. Breakdown work can be dependent on reffing interpretations. Lineout work dependent on opposition tactics. Carrying can be very dependent on how the game plays out. Making dominant tackles is useful in every game of rugby though and those two will do that all day.

1.Marler 2.LCD 3.Sinckler 4.Itoje 5.Lawes 6.Curry 7.Underhill 8.Vunipola
9.Randall 10.Smith 11.May 12.Farrell 13.Marchant 14.Watson 15.Nowell

16.George 17.Vunipola 18.Heyes 19.Martin 20.Earl 21.Youngs 22.Ford 23.Daly

That's the 23 I'm really hoping to see at some point this year.

My sole issue would be Ford on the bench, if you've got Farrell at 12 that then enables you to be more flexible with your bench. Someone like Lawrence to enable a tactical switch would make more sense, if Smith gets injured you then move Farrell.

[formerly known as Sam]

Underhill and Curry would still be my first choice flank pairing when fit. They just offer so much defensively that you can guarantee will be useful from flankers every game. Breakdown work can be dependent on reffing interpretations. Lineout work dependent on opposition tactics. Carrying can be very dependent on how the game plays out. Making dominant tackles is useful in every game of rugby though and those two will do that all day.

1.Marler 2.LCD 3.Sinckler 4.Itoje 5.Lawes 6.Curry 7.Underhill 8.Vunipola
9.Randall 10.Smith 11.May 12.Farrell 13.Marchant 14.Watson 15.Nowell

16.George 17.Vunipola 18.Heyes 19.Martin 20.Earl 21.Youngs 22.Ford 23.Daly

That's the 23 I'm really hoping to see at some point this year.

My sole issue would be Ford on the bench, if you've got Farrell at 12 that then enables you to be more flexible with your bench. Someone like Lawrence to enable a tactical switch would make more sense, if Smith gets injured you then move Farrell.

Moving Farrell into 10 leaves you with very little attacking variation and unless his form increases probably isn't going to help things. With Ford you've got a back up 10 that can play pretty much however you need him to. Having said that I wouldn't bother with Daly on the bench and would opt for someone else like say Lawrence and cover the backline just as well if not better.

[Geordie]

Sadly we will see....

1.Mako 2.George 3.Sinckler 4.Itoje 5.Ewells 6.Lawes 7.Curry 8.Vunipola
9.Youngs 10.Ford 11.Malins 12.Farrell 13.Slade 14.Watson 15.Daly

[lostinwales]

Its not going to happen with Farrell but I'd rather leave out Farrell and Billy for the AI altogether. Either they come back firing for the 6N or they don't. But keeping on playing them now feels a bit like flogging a dead horse.

[Geordie]

I guess it all depends how they all go at the start of this season.
The likes of Billy V should be raring to go...If hes not...the alarm bells should be ringing.

In fact Saracens as a whole will interest me...both the establish England team links...Lozowski, Earl, Farrell, Itoje, George etc and the young pretenders that need to either step up (Isiekwe) or start plenty of games..the Kpoku brothers, etc.

Their academy looks like its ready to unleash another crop of star kids. I notice they have a young 6'10 lock coming through...

[doctor_grey]

Sadly we will see....

1.Mako 2.George 3.Sinckler 4.Itoje 5.Ewells 6.Lawes 7.Curry 8.Vunipola
9.Youngs 10.Ford 11.Malins 12.Farrell 13.Slade 14.Watson 15.Daly

unfortunately, I think you are right. That would show there is no desire for change and the horse will be flogged through to the RWC quarter or semi finals.

[Mr Bounce]

I think Daly's days as a 15 are over (thankfully). Eddie had him at 13 to start against Ireland but his hand was forced after an unexpected injury to Malins. Gatland played him as 13. I think Sarries will be playing him as a 13. There are better options at 15 in Malins and Steward. Daly's "revolving door" tackling and his "bounce it off my chest whilst trying to catch" aerial skills do not belong at the back at International Level.

For all his attacking prowess, Daly's been poor otherwise. Eddie's always harping on about the "next new thing" so perhaps he should try actually trusting them. Daly's a great 23. A starting 15? Not even in the world's top 15.

I genuinely think there will be a few personnel changes to the England squad this autumn. There may be a couple of shocks. Eddie has his favourites, that's for sure, but some heads will roll.

[formerly known as Sam]

I think Daly's days as a 15 are over (thankfully). Eddie had him at 13 to start against Ireland but his hand was forced after an unexpected injury to Malins. Gatland played him as 13. I think Sarries will be playing him as a 13.  There are better options at 15 in Malins and Steward. Daly's "revolving door" tackling and his "bounce it off my chest whilst trying to catch" aerial skills do not belong at the back at International Level.

For all his attacking prowess, Daly's been poor otherwise. Eddie's always harping on about the "next new thing" so perhaps he should try actually trusting them. Daly's a great 23. A starting 15? Not even in the world's top 15.

I genuinely think there will be a few personnel changes to the England squad this autumn. There may be a couple of shocks. Eddie has his favourites, that's for sure, but some heads will roll.

The problem is being a revolving door in defence and playing 13 do not go hand in hand. Might get away with it at Sarries where they play a fairly extreme rush defence and it is more important to race up and close of the ability to move wide than it is to make a tackle. It's why Sarries accept Farrell's poor tackle completion stats because his job is to pressure his opposite number into stepping back inside of trying to rush a decision more than it is to make a certain tackle.

I kind of hope we've moved past Daly. Marchant can come in, offer more and play both wing and centre. Malins looks like he could do a job at wing or fullback though I'm not sure where he'll play for Sarries. Could be that both play on the wing for Sarries.

9. Van Zyl
10. Farrell
11. Malins
12. Tompkins
13. Lozowski
14. Daly
15. Goode

Still leaves de Haas or Davies then a combination of two from Vunipola, Taylor, Morris, Maitland, Lewington and Segun.

I also really, really hope that whichever 10 we go with Ford or Smith we give them a midfield with balance to work with. Was painful watching Ford try and play on the gain line on the 6N with neither centre offering anything in the way of running lines and May's occasional dart the sole offering from the back three to holding the defence. You can slot in who you like at 10 but if that cack unbalanced midfield is maintained we won't be going anywhere.

[Mr Bounce]

I think the problem with Daly's tackling at 15 is that he knows he's the last line of defence and it's more of a mental thing with him. His 13 tackling seems ok as it's a position he's better used to. He pretty much was Wasps' 13 when he was there. He's not a natural 15 - he's just played there for England because that's where he fitted in to Jones' plans. Now there are better alternatives I think he's more the 23 shirt so can cover 11, 13, 14 & 15 from the bench - a good cover player.

But as a starter, I don't think so anymore. He just hasn't played well enough.

[No 7&1/2]

I think the problem with Daly's tackling at 15 is that he knows he's the last line of defence and it's more of a mental thing with him. His 13 tackling seems ok as it's a position he's better used to. He pretty much was Wasps' 13 when he was there. He's not a natural 15 - he's just played there for England because that's where he fitted in to Jones' plans. Now there are better alternatives I think he's more the 23 shirt so can cover 11, 13, 14 & 15 from the bench - a good cover player.

But as a starter, I don't think so anymore. He just hasn't played well enough.

Errr he had the worst tackle completion of every player for the Lions. Every single one at 13. The context of that is that he missed tackles he should be making. He's been ok to cover some positions he's not good enough though and has pretty much bottled every bog game he's been in with a couple of exceptions.

[Mr Bounce]

I stand corrected 7.5

I didn't see much of the "tune-up" games on tour so my apologies - nobody really mentioned it in the press. Marchant for 13 please. Slade can also disappear until he has a good game again...

[doctor_grey]

Agree about Daly, defensively, he was surprisingly poor.  But there must be something that both Warren Gatland and Eddie Jones see in Daly that they believe adds significant value more than other players.  Wasn't he in the match day 23 for every game of the Lions tour?  So what is it that both high profile coaches see?  Not being sarcastic here.  

Before the test matches I thought he was the perfect player to have on the bench.

[formerly known as Sam]

Agree about Daly, defensively, he was surprisingly poor.  But there must be something that both Warren Gatland and Eddie Jones see in Daly that they believe adds significant value more than other players.  Wasn't he in the match day 23 for every game of the Lions tour?  So what is it that both high profile coaches see?  Not being sarcastic here.  

Before the test matches I thought he was the perfect player to have on the bench.

I think Gatland wanted his boot in the backline. The options at centre for the Lions was the weakest we've seen for some time. Consider in previous tours we've had Roberts, JD2, BOD and Manu etc. 

Dropping him doesn't have to be forever he could force his way back in with good form for Sarries.

[lostinwales]

I think where we are going is that core Saracens players who spent last year in the championship need to earn their place all over again, apart from Itoje of course.

[Geordie]

i think a core of this whole England squad do LIW.

It needs freshened up...theres no doubt.

We now have a new attack coach aswell...from Wasps. Hopefully thats Eddie realizing the case.

[doctor_grey]

Agree about Daly, defensively, he was surprisingly poor.  But there must be something that both Warren Gatland and Eddie Jones see in Daly that they believe adds significant value more than other players.  Wasn't he in the match day 23 for every game of the Lions tour?  So what is it that both high profile coaches see?  Not being sarcastic here.  

Before the test matches I thought he was the perfect player to have on the bench.

I think Gatland wanted his boot in the backline. The options at centre for the Lions was the weakest we've seen for some time. Consider in previous tours we've had Roberts, JD2, BOD and Manu etc. 

Dropping him doesn't have to be forever he could force his way back in with good form for Sarries.

I agree the choices in the centres for England are not great at the moment. Not just 12, where we all tend to focus, but also at 13. Some young guys with potential, but I am not sure based on this recent season Eddie Jones will take a chance with them.
Regarding Daly, I guess we will see how he gets used this season...

[No 7&1/2]

Cockerill to be announced next week according to the Daily Heil. I charge of the lineout and 'contact work' but to be expanded as we move forward. Have to say I think he's an excellent coach. Good move again.

[formerly known as Sam]

Cockerill to be announced next week according to the Daily Heil. I charge of the lineout and 'contact work' but to be expanded as we move forward. Have to say I think he's an excellent coach. Good move again.

He is a very good coach. Somewhat limited when given the top job I feel but I always thought that as a head coach under a DOR with real vision he'd be perfect. Not quite how the roles have shaken out for this but could work very nicely. Cockers is well suited to international rugby because his fixation is always on the next game and winning that, it was his inability to develop and rotate a squad that saw him suffer at Tigers.

[Welly]

I suspect we will not see Proudfoot for England again.

[No 7&1/2]

Quite possibly. Covid and the restrictions you have to go through must be even harder if you're working abroad loads.

[formerly known as Sam]

I suspect we will not see Proudfoot for England again.

I think he's probably given his 6 month notice in so will be off after the AIs. Would explain why Cockers is rumoured to be lineout and contact coach initially.

[doctor_grey]

Cockers will be a fine choice, I believe. The team certainly won't lack energy. Only question is whether Cockers and Eddie Jones can co-exist.

[king_carlos]

I think Cockers will be a very good addition.

One thing that many here won't like though is that Cockers loves a strong lineout option in the back row so I fully expect we will see plenty of Lawes at 6, maybe Martin at 6 if he keeps developing.

When I say Cockers likes a 'strong' lineout option I genuinely mean strong rather than just someone capable as well. Guys such as Curry, Ted Hill, Dombrandt, etc are capable jumpers but I wouldn't say it's a strength for them. They're more likely to be lifted than Mako but it's hardly heading their CV. Thinking about other back rows you've got Billy, Underhill, Earl and Simmonds who are weaker than Curry, Dombrandt and Hill. Willis, Ludlam and Kenningham I've seen jump a bit but again they are no more than capable.

I wouldn't be surprised if Cockers likes the selection of Lawes at blindside that many here really hate.

[No 7&1/2]

We need a different choice at 8 if we go Lawes as the breakdown becomes a right mess. It would have to be Simmonds for me if that's the case.

[Sgt_Pooly]

We need a different choice at 8 if we go Lawes as the breakdown becomes a right mess. It would have to be Simmonds for me if that's the case.

I can't see Simmonds involved tbh, I don't even know if he's involved in the discussion is he? He's got 7 caps, mostly starts and has struggled....I suspect EJ has seen all he needs.

[No 7&1/2]

I'm throwing his name back in there as if we do follow Kings thoughts we need someone faster than Dombrandt or Vunipola at 8. Lawes will strengthen the lineout a lot. He'll make a lot of tackles but he won't be carrying that well and he'll be slow to breakdowns. I think Simmonds is a good player and he showed in his caps that he's very capable at this level. Another option would be to switch Curry back to 8 and keep underhill at 7 to accommodate him. I'm hoping they see more in different combos.

[Geordie]

So thats a new attack coach who has had his club side playing some very good stuff, and now cockers in to look at the forwards...

Grounds for slight optimism going forward.

Have we signed up a defence coach yet or not?

[No 7&1/2]

So thats a new attack coach who has had his club side playing some very good stuff, and now cockers in to look at the forwards...

Grounds for slight optimism going forward.

Have we signed up a defence coach yet or not?

Thinking that through it may be that Cockerill is going to expand to cover defence as Mitchell leaves after the AIs.

[Sgt_Pooly]

I think Simmonds is a good player and he showed in his caps that he's very capable at this level.

One game perhaps.....against Italy. I think he was pretty disappointing in his other outings, he pretty much showed he's not up to International level in the current setup.

I've always said we'd need to build a pack to accommodate Simmonds, I don't see that happening anytime soon tbh.

[No 7&1/2]

Well disagree on the first point but yes the pack balance is key and that's why I mention him should Lawes be chosen.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Haha...I don't think 606 is ready for another Simmonds debate!

[Geordie]

My issue with Simmonds is he is a 12...

Sorry, on a serious note...

Theres not much difference (in my opinion) than Ben Earl and Sam Simmonds. Maybe Simmonds is more attack minded...but generally they are explosive, fast, high energy, high workrate players, who can make a high number of tackles, and who give you something different in your attacking plays.

Eddie clearly prefers Earl, BUT the issue is...i dont think Ben Earl will ever be a starter either...when you have (on the Flank) Curry, Underhill, Lawes, Jack Willis to return, Ludlum, Kenningham as the new 606 darling etc etc etc....and (at 8) Tom Willis, Dombrandt and Billy V...

So Simmonds hasnt got a hope.

[Poorfour]

I think Simmonds' Lions cameo showed the issue he has to overcome: when confronted with an international defence full of big, hard tacklers he couldn't create the space to shine. He's got the speed to go for gaps other 8s can't reach, but those gaps are far less frequent at International level.

It's why Billy has hung around so long: what he does is the same thing every time, but he has a size and power that even the big guys can't stop. If he ever gets back to full fitness, he'll be back on the cards, but in the meantime Earl and Dombrandt look like they have the heft to make yards even in heavy traffic, but bring something else to keep defences guessing.

Sam, I've looked for this mandatory 10 week rest period that you keep mentioning, but I can't find the details. Where are you getting it from?

[doctor_grey]

https://www.yahoo.com/amphtml/now/key-questions-emerge-british-irish-050034234.html

In the”what’s happening now” section part way down.  I know I’ve seen it elsewhere too, but I can’t remember where.

[Geordie]

https://www.ruck.co.uk/four-past-it-players-who-wont-play-for-england-again/

Do you agree with this...or just a bored journalist looking for something to write about?

The players...
Johnny May
Billy V
Mark Wilson
Jonathan Joseph

[formerly known as Sam]

England’s Lions players are guaranteed to have 10 weeks off after the tour and it is understood their 10-day stint in Jersey will count towards that rest period, meaning they will be out of action until mid-October.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2021/aug/05/uk-based-lions-refused-permission-to-fly-straight-home-from-south-africa


Various media reports have mentioned it. It seems it's only English players though so Hogg for instance should be straight back into action.

[Soul Requiem]

https://www.ruck.co.uk/four-past-it-players-who-wont-play-for-england-again/

Do you agree with this...or just a bored journalist looking for something to write about?

The players...
Johnny May
Billy V
Mark Wilson
Jonathan Joseph

Wilson and JJ i'd be surprised to see play again. May and Billy however will probably be in the starting XV in the autumn.

[formerly known as Sam]

https://www.ruck.co.uk/four-past-it-players-who-wont-play-for-england-again/

Do you agree with this...or just a bored journalist looking for something to write about?

The players...
Johnny May
Billy V
Mark Wilson
Jonathan Joseph

Media clickbait. Joseph does seem to have dropped out of the reckoning. Wilson is probably done as well. Billy V and May are favourites of Eddie though so can't see they will be dropped so unceremoniously. May is the best kick chase option England have and Eddie won't be removing that tactic from the playbook.

[lostinwales]

Johnny May isn't getting younger and Billy isn't getting less brittle, and the good news is that there is decent competition for both of them.

As said before I'd like to see Billy parked for a while to see how well he'll respond.

We'll have to wait and see with May, not much has changed between now and a couple of years ago when he was one of the best wings in Europe, so more will depend on where his head is at. What will not work in his favour is playing for a Gloucester that is likely to be struggling in the season ahead.

[Geordie]

Whilst i think Jones has favorites...hes not afraid to drop them. Robshaw, Hartley etc all removed when required...

I agree though...Joseph and Wilson will be gone. Marchant surely is the perfect replacement at 13 and needs a good run now.

The other two...well it depends on their start to the season. Both players have genuine young contenders fighting for the spot now...

[No 7&1/2]

May is 16 tries behind Underwood, quite a motivation to stick with it too.

[Geordie]

I wonder if we'll see an England back row of the following some day:

6 Tom Curry
7 Jack Willis
8 Tom Willis

That would be a handy back row!

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