Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[JuliusHMarx]

I am not prone to defending the old firm but what do you mean by not close to CL standard? They are probably pretty similar to other pot 4 teams.

They clearly aren't capable of competing in it, furthermore if they were genuinely Champions League standard they wouldn't have to rely on Russian league expulsion to get in automatically and wouldn't have such a dismal qualifying record against Malmo, Copenhagen, Midtylland etc.

Teams that are CL standard actually appear in it, rather than once every five years. Evidently they are there to make up numbers.
Getting third position is the aspiration and that looks a step too far for Rangers at least and likely Celtic

Fancy editing this one before I go forth and rip the utter Poopie apart point by point?

Not at all. Celtic and Rangers are proving categorically why they are pot 4. They have been terrible.
Unless they do their part in improving the SPL and thus increasing revenue so they can compete at this level they are only ever going to be able to do ok in Europa and Conference, it's clear as day they aren't up to the CL under the status quo.
Not really sure how you can "rip that apart"
Celtic and Rangers are partially responsible for how bad the quality of the domestic League is, but do nothing to improve it. It's self fulfilling and any reasonable OF fan would admit they aren't good enough for the Champions League and unless things change domestically, they never will.
That's pretty reasonable isn't it?

Yes, it comes down to money, but if your teams can't be arsed to improve the product, then expect this every year until your coefficient denudes to the point where automatic qualification doesn't occur.

Rangers and Celtic aren't good enough. It's just a fact.

Ok points
1. Russian expulsion, they were already going to be ahead of Russia in the coefficient. Rangers pretty much over the past 4 seasons dragged the Scottish coefficient from 23rd to 8th FACT
2. Rangers have faced Danish opposition twice since their resurgence, comfortably beating Midtylland in the Europa league qualifying and taking 4/6 points off Brondby in the group stage last season. I can’t and won’t speak about how the other half of the OF have performed.
3. I know this will be painful for you to grasp but the Scottish league is the 8th best league in Europe and in terms of finance is there punching above it’s weight.
4. Rangers were ranked 33rd at the end of last season, at the point of the CL group stage draw they were ranked 29th, had that ranking been used in the CL draw they would have been in POT 3, but for a Ramsay penalty they would have been in pot 1

Saying they can’t compete is utter Love sacks, there is a mile of difference between saying they’ve performed poorly compared to last season and saying they can’t compete. If they ship the same amount of goals in the next 3 games and 0 points then you’d be moving toward a semblance of a point but we’re not there yet are we.

5. Civic.

[JAS]

Too cryptic for me Jules but I look forward with pending hilarity on the origin of
5. Civic

[super_realist]

JAS. I'm talking specifically about The Old Firm.
Neither team is competitive. 6 games between you and 1 point.

In what world is that being competitive. Why can't you just admit that you aren't good enough? It's pretty clear to everyone else.

[super_realist]

Super

I wonder if it is you that has unrealistic expectations about pot 4 teams and not those teams themselves. They are there to try and get a Europa league spot if possible and enjoy their matches against the traditionally big teams as much as possible, hopefully stealing a result.

Mac, all I'm saying is the the OF are trying to walk before they can crawl.
If you listen to them they genuinely think they are capable of second place. Given their deplorable performances can you call that realistic?

You post on a sports forum yet understand so little about sport. Every team will be hoping and believing they're capable of coming second in the group, that's how sport works.

By the same reasoning Accrington Stanley hope and believe they'll reach the Premiership. Add some realism.

[super_realist]

Jas

Super has a very low football IQ. He has demonstrated this over the years.

I know, he’s repeatedly made a tit of himself since the start of the Gerrard era about Rangers capability of being able to compete in Europe. All doom and gloom, no recognition of the progress being made etc etc. This season has probably seen them hit what is probably their plateau level based on their overall financial & domestic constraints. They are not, nor are they likely to be a top 16 outfit. As a top 32 team though that does make them EUropa league competitive. The next step up they have to try and make is be  savvy and competitive enough to be able to get into the CL and be able to cope and get a 3rd place which would enable European football post Xmas. With the luck of the draw this season that is unlikely to happen, Napoli as pot 3 outfit are exceptional, I’d stick my neck out and say they would have had a significantly better chance had they had the draw Celtic had.

Also something that does have to change that would help all of the Scottish game is for a 3rd team to step up and gather some coefficient points. Rangers have done their bit by improving the coefficient to the point where a 3rd team get guaranteed European football until Xmas. Would love to see Hearts do really well in the Conference this season and help consolidate the National Club coefficient. If they do….great, if they don’t, it’s not the Old Firms fault. The Hearts Hibs and Aberdeens of this world need to step up, at least now and again.  You wouldn’t hear Brentford, Notts Forest Brighton etc blaming Man City, Chelsea, Man U etc for their inability to compete at the highest level.

Celtic and Rangers are complicit in their own failure. It's not a case of a third team stepping up. It's about Celtic and Rangers contributing to make the League more competitive, which they deliberately and cynically trample all over.

[Soul Requiem]

Super

I wonder if it is you that has unrealistic expectations about pot 4 teams and not those teams themselves. They are there to try and get a Europa league spot if possible and enjoy their matches against the traditionally big teams as much as possible, hopefully stealing a result.

Mac, all I'm saying is the the OF are trying to walk before they can crawl.
If you listen to them they genuinely think they are capable of second place. Given their deplorable performances can you call that realistic?

You post on a sports forum yet understand so little about sport. Every team will be hoping and believing they're capable of coming second in the group, that's how sport works.

By the same reasoning Accrington Stanley hope and believe they'll reach the Premiership. Add some realism.

That reasoning is flawed; Rangers are in the Champions league so expectations are based on that. Your Accrington Stanley analogy is meaningless in that context, try harder next time.

[JAS]

Jas

Super has a very low football IQ. He has demonstrated this over the years.

I know, he’s repeatedly made a tit of himself since the start of the Gerrard era about Rangers capability of being able to compete in Europe. All doom and gloom, no recognition of the progress being made etc etc. This season has probably seen them hit what is probably their plateau level based on their overall financial & domestic constraints. They are not, nor are they likely to be a top 16 outfit. As a top 32 team though that does make them EUropa league competitive. The next step up they have to try and make is be  savvy and competitive enough to be able to get into the CL and be able to cope and get a 3rd place which would enable European football post Xmas. With the luck of the draw this season that is unlikely to happen, Napoli as pot 3 outfit are exceptional, I’d stick my neck out and say they would have had a significantly better chance had they had the draw Celtic had.

Also something that does have to change that would help all of the Scottish game is for a 3rd team to step up and gather some coefficient points. Rangers have done their bit by improving the coefficient to the point where a 3rd team get guaranteed European football until Xmas. Would love to see Hearts do really well in the Conference this season and help consolidate the National Club coefficient. If they do….great, if they don’t, it’s not the Old Firms fault. The Hearts Hibs and Aberdeens of this world need to step up, at least now and again.  You wouldn’t hear Brentford, Notts Forest Brighton etc blaming Man City, Chelsea, Man U etc for their inability to compete at the highest level.

Celtic and Rangers are complicit in their own failure. It's not a case of a third team stepping up. It's about Celtic and Rangers contributing to make the League more competitive, which they deliberately and cynically trample all over.

Brilliant…how???

By adopting Socialism and a implementing a major redistribution of wealth, creating power, wealth and opportunity for the many not the few? Not like you to be advocating Socialism Supes

[super_realist]

Celtic and Rangers systematically denude the other teams of their best players year in year out.
If there was a strength in depth to accommodate it this would be fine, but unlike England there isn't.

If they cared about the League ( and competition) they'd leave these players at their clubs, but they don't care. They'd probably still beat Aberdeen, Hearts etc 2-0 or whatever but taking away star players from other teams means it's more often a result which has meant the OF hasn't been challenged.

They could also barrack the League to be summer football, a far more enticing TV product than competing with leagues in high demand, and would also mean both teams were well in their stride for Europe, but no. They want to keep it their way.

There are plenty ways that Scottish Football could be improved, and in which it could get more money but the clubs (all clubs) and idiotic fans like old farts in charge of the association, just can't do change.
They just want to live in the past in a time when all leagues were almost as crap as the SPL and that they should all come down to the SPL level.

Celtic and Rangers want to keep it the least competitive league in the world and cries of "world record league wins" don't strike fans as an indictment of the League instead they use it as a retarded boast. " Look how awful our league is, we can win it 55 times)

[pedro]

Not following it closely, but what happened to the talks of them joining the EPL?

[beninho]

Accrington Stanley may not be close to the Premier league.

But in recent years Brentford were bottom league team in a tatty old ground, Wigan perennial lower league team who went on to win tge FA Cup. Luton were non league a whike back, now a championship team, I remember Wycombe playing Burnley pretty regularly in the lower leagues. Heck, even Wycombe had a stint in the championship, clubs should all have hopes!

[Duty281]

Not following it closely, but what happened to the talks of them joining the EPL?

Should let Rangers in but not Celtic. Would be hilarious.

[JAS]

Not following it closely, but what happened to the talks of them joining the EPL?

Should let Rangers in but not Celtic. Would be hilarious.

Even I'm confused by that one. Hilarious watching Celtic spit chips about not being invited or hilarious watching Rangers initial shock at having to adapt to a different level? Both? The vice versa was mooted a few years ago when Celtic were walking the SPL blindfolded while Rangers entertained the lower leagues. There were also musings about Rangers starting at the bottom of the English pyramid rather than the Scottish one in 2012.

The fact is though they come as a pair, anybody who likes their football should experience an Old Firm game at least once.

[McLaren]

Super

So essentially you don't think the worst teams in a tournament should take part? But where does that stop?

Should the world cup just be the two top ranked teams going straight to the final?

A competition needs the so called whipping boys to provide a bit of entertainment. Look at how close Man Utd came to calamity last night. A competition needs different elements to be entertaining and the worst teams provide that.

[JAS]

Rangers and Celtic seem perfectly feasible pot 4 champions league teams. And last season Rangers showed they could beat bigger champions league teams such as Dortmund.

Depending on the draw and tge 3rd seeded team they may have a chance.

Pot 4 is whipping boys and that's where they are. That's the point. Pot 4 is there to make up numbers.
You see the deluded fans thinking they have a chance of second. It's hysterical.
Do you think FC Copenhagen have such delusions of grandeur or do you think they are just grateful to be there? It's about expectation and Rangers and Celtic should be grateful for the opportunity to play 6 games once every 5 (Celtic) or 10 years (Rangers)
They have zero recent experience at this level and so expectations should be adjusted accordingly.

Jesus Super you peddle more distorted Poopie than Tory ministers. Even before the Europa League final last year I was saying that if Rangers made into the CL 3rd place in the group should be the target (yes even if they'd won the EL and been in Pot 1)
What makes you think Rangers & Celtic aren't grateful to be there? (I suppose you could say in a way Celtic won't be that grateful because they got there automatically on the back of Rangers coefficient points earnings)
Now that SPL are 8th in the rankings that DOES mean Champions in CL group stage EVERY season and runners up in final qualifying round every season. So if the title goes back and forth each year and the runners up can beat the likes of PSV in final qualifying then they'll be in EVERY year not once in every 5 or 10.
You continually hark back to the inevitable consequences of the time when Celtic were trying to plough a furrow on their own in terms of maintaining the co-efficient. That was a situation you were quite happy to see happening in fact most of Scottish football outside of Ibrox were happy to see happening. It's just the Scottish football mindset. "You have a 2 horse race, how to make it better?...aye shoot one of the horses that'll help, some of the wee donkeys and ponies might turn into horses and the competition will be better" Eh no
Rangers are back and the coefficient is back in it's more realistic place. You must really hate the fact that Rangers have climbed back into the top 30. That number alone tells you or should tell you they've earned their place at the top table. That does NOT mean they can seriously compete beyond the group stages with the real big boys but they've at least earned the right to be where they are.

[Duty281]

Not following it closely, but what happened to the talks of them joining the EPL?

Should let Rangers in but not Celtic. Would be hilarious.

Even I'm confused by that one. Hilarious watching Celtic spit chips about not being invited or hilarious watching Rangers initial shock at having to adapt to a different level? Both? The vice versa was mooted a few years ago when Celtic were walking the SPL blindfolded while Rangers entertained the lower leagues. There were also musings about Rangers starting at the bottom of the English pyramid rather than the Scottish one in 2012.

The fact is though they come as a pair, anybody who likes their football should experience an Old Firm game at least once.

Yes that one. Obviously I don't want either club in the English league, as I don't care for the vastly overrated tinpot derby between the two clubs based on sectarian hatred.

[super_realist]

Rangers and Celtic seem perfectly feasible pot 4 champions league teams. And last season Rangers showed they could beat bigger champions league teams such as Dortmund.

Depending on the draw and tge 3rd seeded team they may have a chance.

Pot 4 is whipping boys and that's where they are. That's the point. Pot 4 is there to make up numbers.
You see the deluded fans thinking they have a chance of second. It's hysterical.
Do you think FC Copenhagen have such delusions of grandeur or do you think they are just grateful to be there? It's about expectation and Rangers and Celtic should be grateful for the opportunity to play 6 games once every 5 (Celtic) or 10 years (Rangers)
They have zero recent experience at this level and so expectations should be adjusted accordingly.

Jesus Super you peddle more distorted Poopie than Tory ministers. Even before the Europa League final last year I was saying that if Rangers made into the CL 3rd place in the group should be the target (yes even if they'd won the EL and been in Pot 1)
What makes you think Rangers & Celtic aren't grateful to be there? (I suppose you could say in a way Celtic won't be that grateful because they got there automatically on the back of Rangers coefficient points earnings)
Now that SPL are 8th in the rankings that DOES mean Champions in CL group stage EVERY season and runners up in final qualifying round every season. So if the title goes back and forth each year and the runners up can beat the likes of PSV in final qualifying then they'll be in EVERY year not once in every 5 or 10.
You continually hark back to the inevitable consequences of the time when Celtic were trying to plough a furrow on their own in terms of maintaining the co-efficient. That was a situation you were quite happy to see happening in fact most of Scottish football outside of Ibrox were happy to see happening. It's just the Scottish football mindset. "You have a 2 horse race, how to make it better?...aye shoot one of the horses that'll help, some of the wee donkeys and ponies might turn into horses and the competition will be better" Eh no
Rangers are back and the coefficient is back in it's more realistic place. You must really hate the fact that Rangers have climbed back into the top 30. That number alone tells you or should tell you they've earned their place at the top table. That does NOT mean they can seriously compete beyond the group stages with the real big boys but they've at least earned the right to be where they are.

JAS, there's being grateful (as you are) and having preposterous expectations such as 2nd place as many deluded OF fans started this season thinking was nailed on.
It does not mean they will be in the CL EVERY season should their coefficient reduce to the point where they are no longer 8th. How much do you think the coefficient is going to be maintained after this years performances? If neither team get third then they are both out of Europe entirely. No further European football, and thus no coefficient points gained.

You seem to think that because Rangers had a good season last year, that this will be the new status quo EVERY year. What are you basing this on?

Where did I say anything about shooting any horses metaphorically?

[super_realist]

Super

So essentially you don't think the worst teams in a tournament should take part? But where does that stop?

Should the world cup just be the two top ranked teams going straight to the final?

A competition needs the so called whipping boys to provide a bit of entertainment. Look at how close Man Utd came to calamity last night. A competition needs different elements to be entertaining and the worst teams provide that.

No Mac, by all means make up the numbers with Rangers, Celtic, Copenhagen etc, but the fans shouldn't be expecting anything more than 6 games and a few nice trips away.
The way Rangers and Celtic fans go on, they genuinely think they are top class teams. If that were the case, they'd be able to attract players capable of being competitive at this level.

It is baby steps, this year any reasonable team entering for the first time in five years should be content just to assess the competition and see where they are and asses just how far behind they are, next time see if a genuine push for third is possible etc. It's the arrogance of such teams that think they are good enough for second place straight away which is funny. They completely forget the qualifying defeats by Malmo, Midtylland, Copenhagen, Prague, etc but all of a sudden they're capable of second according to them? Hilarious.

It is difficult though knowing where that cut off is between who should play and who should not. When you look how contrived a Womens' World Cup is in regards to the % of truly terrible teams or the Rugby "World" Cup which is a bit of a stretch too. I think the Champions League probably has the mix just about right, but still some absolute annihilations occur which does take away from the credibility sometimes.

[super_realist]

Changing tack, would you gamble a job move from a permanent (but uncertain long term) role to a 12 month contract in order to more than double your salary and hope that the contract is extended or stay put?

[McLaren]

Changing tack, would you gamble a job move from a permanent (but uncertain long term) role to a 12 month contract in order to more than double your salary and hope that the contract is extended or stay put?

If they are doubling your salary they have probably over estimated your skills. It could be a terrible time if you are not up to the task.

[JAS]

Changing tack, would you gamble a job move from a permanent (but uncertain long term) role to a 12 month contract in order to more than double your salary and hope that the contract is extended or stay put?

If they are doubling your salary they have probably over estimated your skills. It could be a terrible time if you are not up to the task.

Moving from permanent to contract is a bit more complex then just receiving a bigger salary Mac. The whole relationship changes from Employer/Employee to client/supplier. The employer does not pay a salary. They pay an invoice submitted by the supplier of the contracted service. When the supplier gets paid it’s up to them how much they pay in Salary to themself making sure enough is set aside for tax, NI (Including employers NI) and Corporation tax. They can also allocate money for expenses, training & development and even expansion. Contract rates are typically MUCH higher than salaries for the same job/supplied service.

Supes I did exactly that 24 years ago and never regretted it, different contracts always come along (well most of the time). I have now done the reverse, I.e. wound up my limited Company and went back into a permanent role. It’s horses for courses, I contracted from Exeter to Edinburgh, Dublin to Helsingborg. Had a fantastic time earning an average of £480 - £500 a day. My permie salary in 1998 was around £42k so it was quite an income leap when I did it. Now in my late 50s, amongst other things long weekly commutes are something I don’t really want to be doing any more when I have grandchildren locally. Work life balance is now more important but hey, if you’re confident in your skills and want to financially maximise your potential then go for it. Get yourself a good accountant too because HMRC continually move the goalposts.

[McLaren]

Jas

Have you heard of mansplaining?

[JAS]

Jas

Have you heard of mansplaining?

No...you'll have to mansplain it to me :-p

[JAS]

Jas

Have you heard of mansplaining?

No...you'll have to mansplain it to me :-p

Actually it's easier to google...

Mansplaining: The act of explaining something to someone in a way that suggests that they are stupid; used especially when a man explains something to a woman ..

Not sure how that fits although to be fair your response to Super did deserve to be mansplained

[JAS]

Rangers and Celtic seem perfectly feasible pot 4 champions league teams. And last season Rangers showed they could beat bigger champions league teams such as Dortmund.

Depending on the draw and tge 3rd seeded team they may have a chance.

Pot 4 is whipping boys and that's where they are. That's the point. Pot 4 is there to make up numbers.
You see the deluded fans thinking they have a chance of second. It's hysterical.
Do you think FC Copenhagen have such delusions of grandeur or do you think they are just grateful to be there? It's about expectation and Rangers and Celtic should be grateful for the opportunity to play 6 games once every 5 (Celtic) or 10 years (Rangers)
They have zero recent experience at this level and so expectations should be adjusted accordingly.

Jesus Super you peddle more distorted Poopie than Tory ministers. Even before the Europa League final last year I was saying that if Rangers made into the CL 3rd place in the group should be the target (yes even if they'd won the EL and been in Pot 1)
What makes you think Rangers & Celtic aren't grateful to be there? (I suppose you could say in a way Celtic won't be that grateful because they got there automatically on the back of Rangers coefficient points earnings)
Now that SPL are 8th in the rankings that DOES mean Champions in CL group stage EVERY season and runners up in final qualifying round every season. So if the title goes back and forth each year and the runners up can beat the likes of PSV in final qualifying then they'll be in EVERY year not once in every 5 or 10.
You continually hark back to the inevitable consequences of the time when Celtic were trying to plough a furrow on their own in terms of maintaining the co-efficient. That was a situation you were quite happy to see happening in fact most of Scottish football outside of Ibrox were happy to see happening. It's just the Scottish football mindset. "You have a 2 horse race, how to make it better?...aye shoot one of the horses that'll help, some of the wee donkeys and ponies might turn into horses and the competition will be better" Eh no
Rangers are back and the coefficient is back in it's more realistic place. You must really hate the fact that Rangers have climbed back into the top 30. That number alone tells you or should tell you they've earned their place at the top table. That does NOT mean they can seriously compete beyond the group stages with the real big boys but they've at least earned the right to be where they are.

JAS, there's being grateful (as you are) and having preposterous expectations such as 2nd place as many deluded OF fans started this season thinking was nailed on.
It does not mean they will be in the CL EVERY season should their coefficient reduce to the point where they are no longer 8th. How much do you think the coefficient is going to be maintained  after this years performances? If neither team get third then they are both out of Europe entirely. No further European football, and thus no coefficient points gained.

You seem to think that because Rangers had a good season last year, that this will be the new status quo EVERY year. What are you basing this on?

Where did I say anything about shooting any horses metaphorically?

Have you got mates who are deluded old firm fans??

So as I understand it 8th in the Rankings gets a country 2 CL slots and automatic qualification to group stage for Champs, 9th is the same as is 10th (only difference being the runners up come into the qualifying rounds a round earlier). Only when a country is ranked 11th or worse do the champions not automatically get group stage football.

Rangers have had more than just a good season last year, it's been building, the 2 previous seasons they reached last 16 one of them topping the group so that is a lot of coefficient points. Historically the Scottish coefficient varies between 8 & 12, I would never expect them to get higher (the big 5 + Holland and Portugal although ironically Rangers have played Portuguese opposition 4 times in the past 3 years and got the better of them each time, and until they ran into Ajax they'd got the better of Dutch outfits too). Anyway, for the Scottish champions not to get Group stage football the year after next (yes there's a bit of a lag) the national coefficient would have to be overtaken by 3 countries. The 3 immediately below them are Belgium, Austria and Serbia. Any outstanding teams from that lot tearing up the Champions league?

In terms of the shooting the horse metaphor, I was talking about the demotion to the bottom tier of Rangers, regardless of the rights and wrongs of it, the main consequence of it was to blow the national coefficient to oblivion for over 6 years

[Soul Requiem]

Jas

Have you heard of mansplaining?

No...you'll have to mansplain it to me :-p

Actually it's easier to google...

Mansplaining: The act of explaining something to someone in a way that suggests that they are stupid; used especially when a man explains something to a woman ..

Not sure how that fits although to be fair your response to Super did deserve to be mansplained

It's less of a suggestion with certain posters on here but more a statement of fact.

[navyblueshorts]

Jas

Have you heard of mansplaining?

One of those ****ing terms where it's seen to be clever to accuse a man of doing such, while completely missing the hypocrisy of a term that demeans all men. Still, can't expect anything else from the right-on brigade. Good grief...

[super_realist]

Changing tack, would you gamble a job move from a permanent (but uncertain long term) role to a 12 month contract in order to more than double your salary and hope that the contract is extended or stay put?

If they are doubling your salary they have probably over estimated your skills. It could be a terrible time if you are not up to the task.

It's a different country Mac.

[super_realist]

Changing tack, would you gamble a job move from a permanent (but uncertain long term) role to a 12 month contract in order to more than double your salary and hope that the contract is extended or stay put?

If they are doubling your salary they have probably over estimated your skills. It could be a terrible time if you are not up to the task.

Moving from permanent to contract is a bit more complex then just receiving a bigger salary Mac. The whole relationship changes from Employer/Employee to client/supplier. The employer does not pay a salary. They pay an invoice submitted by the supplier of the contracted service. When the supplier gets paid it’s up to them how much they pay in Salary to themself making sure enough is set aside for tax, NI (Including employers NI) and Corporation tax. They can also allocate money for expenses, training & development and even expansion. Contract rates are typically MUCH higher than salaries for the same job/supplied service.

Supes I did exactly that 24 years ago and never regretted it, different contracts always come along (well most of the time). I have now done the reverse, I.e. wound up my limited Company and went back into a permanent role. It’s horses for courses, I contracted from Exeter to Edinburgh, Dublin to Helsingborg. Had a fantastic time earning an average of £480 - £500 a day. My permie salary in 1998 was around £42k so it was quite an income leap when I did it. Now in my late 50s, amongst other things long weekly commutes are something I don’t really want to be doing any more when I have grandchildren locally. Work life balance is now more important but hey, if you’re confident in your skills and want to financially maximise your potential then go for it. Get yourself a good accountant too because HMRC continually move the goalposts.

Cheers Jas, most people have been telling me to go for it.
Its in Norway and so will be subject to Norwegian tax, but they're also paying a staggering commuting allowance meaning I get accomodation paid and flights back every few weeks so seems like a no brainer.

[super_realist]

Rangers and Celtic seem perfectly feasible pot 4 champions league teams. And last season Rangers showed they could beat bigger champions league teams such as Dortmund.

Depending on the draw and tge 3rd seeded team they may have a chance.

Pot 4 is whipping boys and that's where they are. That's the point. Pot 4 is there to make up numbers.
You see the deluded fans thinking they have a chance of second. It's hysterical.
Do you think FC Copenhagen have such delusions of grandeur or do you think they are just grateful to be there? It's about expectation and Rangers and Celtic should be grateful for the opportunity to play 6 games once every 5 (Celtic) or 10 years (Rangers)
They have zero recent experience at this level and so expectations should be adjusted accordingly.

Jesus Super you peddle more distorted Poopie than Tory ministers. Even before the Europa League final last year I was saying that if Rangers made into the CL 3rd place in the group should be the target (yes even if they'd won the EL and been in Pot 1)
What makes you think Rangers & Celtic aren't grateful to be there? (I suppose you could say in a way Celtic won't be that grateful because they got there automatically on the back of Rangers coefficient points earnings)
Now that SPL are 8th in the rankings that DOES mean Champions in CL group stage EVERY season and runners up in final qualifying round every season. So if the title goes back and forth each year and the runners up can beat the likes of PSV in final qualifying then they'll be in EVERY year not once in every 5 or 10.
You continually hark back to the inevitable consequences of the time when Celtic were trying to plough a furrow on their own in terms of maintaining the co-efficient. That was a situation you were quite happy to see happening in fact most of Scottish football outside of Ibrox were happy to see happening. It's just the Scottish football mindset. "You have a 2 horse race, how to make it better?...aye shoot one of the horses that'll help, some of the wee donkeys and ponies might turn into horses and the competition will be better" Eh no
Rangers are back and the coefficient is back in it's more realistic place. You must really hate the fact that Rangers have climbed back into the top 30. That number alone tells you or should tell you they've earned their place at the top table. That does NOT mean they can seriously compete beyond the group stages with the real big boys but they've at least earned the right to be where they are.

JAS, there's being grateful (as you are) and having preposterous expectations such as 2nd place as many deluded OF fans started this season thinking was nailed on.
It does not mean they will be in the CL EVERY season should their coefficient reduce to the point where they are no longer 8th. How much do you think the coefficient is going to be maintained  after this years performances? If neither team get third then they are both out of Europe entirely. No further European football, and thus no coefficient points gained.

You seem to think that because Rangers had a good season last year, that this will be the new status quo EVERY year. What are you basing this on?

Where did I say anything about shooting any horses metaphorically?

Have you got mates who are deluded old firm fans??

So as I understand it 8th in the Rankings gets a country 2 CL slots and automatic qualification to group stage for Champs, 9th is the same as is 10th (only difference being the runners up come into the qualifying rounds a round earlier). Only when a country is ranked 11th or worse do the champions not automatically get group stage football.

Rangers have had more than just a good season last year, it's been building, the 2 previous seasons they reached last 16 one of them topping the group so that is a lot of coefficient points. Historically the Scottish coefficient varies between 8 & 12, I would never expect them to get higher (the big 5 + Holland and Portugal although ironically Rangers have played Portuguese opposition 4 times in the past 3 years and got the better of them each time, and until they ran into Ajax they'd got the better of Dutch outfits too).  Anyway, for the Scottish champions not to get Group stage football the year after next (yes there's a bit of a lag) the national coefficient would have to be overtaken by 3 countries. The 3 immediately below them are Belgium, Austria and Serbia. Any outstanding teams from that lot tearing up the Champions league?

In terms of the shooting the horse metaphor, I was talking about the demotion to the bottom tier of Rangers, regardless of the rights and wrongs of it, the main consequence of it was to blow the national coefficient to oblivion for over 6 years

Brugge are doing well and Salzburg could maybe drag up Austria. Not sure about Serbia, can't imagine Belgrade are up to much these days.

[westisbest]

Not following it closely, but what happened to the talks of them joining the EPL?

Should let Rangers in but not Celtic. Would be hilarious.

Even I'm confused by that one. Hilarious watching Celtic spit chips about not being invited or hilarious watching Rangers initial shock at having to adapt to a different level? Both? The vice versa was mooted a few years ago when Celtic were walking the SPL blindfolded while Rangers entertained the lower leagues. There were also musings about Rangers starting at the bottom of the English pyramid rather than the Scottish one in 2012.

The fact is though they come as a pair, anybody who likes their football should experience an Old Firm game at least once.

Would like to go to an old firm game( Celtic Home). Been told by non celtic and rangers fans who have been that it’s one of the best Derby’s they’ve been to.

Certainly not tin pot by all accounts.

I think both would struggle in the EPL though.

[pedro]

Middle of the table probably

[JAS]

Middle of the table probably

I've kind of flip flopped on whether it would be a good idea or not for the OF to migrate to the English game, initially I thought "No way should it ever happen"
Then when the financial gulf started to open up and the playing field ceased to be anything remotely like level I thought "Commercially they'll have to do something, migrating to where the riches are is the obvious choice because you cant change the commercial dynamics" Rangers chose a different path to try and bridge the financial gulf to be competitive in Europe and it ended badly, very very badly. Meanwhile the financial environments have continued to diversify massively. I then thought, "Stay where you are but start organising with all the other non big 5 leagues a separate European competition outside the CL because lets face it no team outside the big 5 is ever going to win the CL now unless there is some kind of financial meltdown of UEFA and their income stream from TV rights. In a sense, it's better for Celtic, they can always say they've been European Champions albeit in an era untainted by commercial and financial bias (in some ways that actually counts for more). Rangers will almost certainly now never be able to say that. Such is the rivalry, that obviously stings Rangers fans but it is market reality and as they found out in 2012 you cant buck the market. We just have to accept nowadays that at the highest level football is essentially a "see who can piss highest up the wall comp for accountants, financiers and money laundering crooks" With Clubs and players mere pawns in the game.

So to me, in the end, the OF in the EPL is and always should be a non starter. The OF need to run within their means, they have a responsibility to foster, develop and advance the game in their home country and look outwardly for commercial opportunities only to further those ends, those opportunities should be in European competition not migrating to a different countries league for purely financial reasons, that's it.

Whether or not they'd compete in the EPL and at what level is therefore an entirely irrelevant question. Personal belief is that they'd initially struggle just like any newly promoted team, however their pull as a global brand would attract investment at a level that would make them competitive at the top end. That being said I don't think I could stomach Rangers being owned by a money laundering oligarch with a dodgy financial history (financially dodgy owners and Rangers don't mix)

[pedro]

If the OF were to join the EPL, maybe they could look to Real Sociedad and Athletic Bilbao and how they have positioned themselves in Spanish football. Two clubs with a very strong Basque identity, where kids of Basque origin from all over Spain and France would dream of playing - and who hardly sign any non Basque-players or players that haven't been in their youth ranks. Those clubs are doing financially well and have hardly ever been relegated. They've also been able to keep good players until the very best clubs in Europe pony up, ex. Xabi Alonso and Griezmann.

[super_realist]

I can't see them being any better than Everton, Villa, Newcastle etc.
For decades these teams apart from some relegations have had all that Premier League money and not been able to achieve a bloody thing.
Glasgow is not a trendy city, so would struggle to attract top talent. Can't see anything but mediocrity for the OF.

If absolute giants like Man United can't win the league anymore or teams like Arsenal or Spurs then Rangers and Celtic have no chance.

No one wants these backwards cultist clubs in their league anyway. Too much trouble.
If the Old Firm don't do anything to make the league better as an attractive, investable product then they get what they deserve.

[JAS]

Brugge are doing well and Salzburg could maybe drag up Austria. Not sure about Serbia, can't imagine Belgrade are up to much these days.

Those 2 are pretty representative of the level Rangers are now at, Salzburg slightly above, Brugge slightly below and you're right Rangers and Celtic need to be trying to match them points wise which at the moment aint looking great. It also matters what Union St Gilloise and Anderlecht do in the Europa and Conference, Same for Sturm Graz and Austria Wien. That's where Scotland could do with Hearts chipping in a bit.

As for Crvena zvezda, they're in the Europa League this year, They've dumped their coach since Rangers dumped them out the europa league last season.

[super_realist]

Well Brugge are top of their CL group. Can't see an OF team ever doing that

[JAS]

Cheers Jas, most people have been telling me to go for it.
Its in Norway and so will be subject to Norwegian tax, but they're also paying a staggering commuting allowance meaning I get accomodation paid and flights back every few weeks so seems like a no brainer.

So in that scenario would you/or even could you base yourself in Norway for Tax purposes, In other words set up a Norwegian Limited Company rather than a UK one?...and then domicile yourself in Norway for personal taxation as well?

[super_realist]

Cheers Jas, most people have been telling me to go for it.
Its in Norway and so will be subject to Norwegian tax, but they're also paying a staggering commuting allowance meaning I get accomodation paid and flights back every few weeks so seems like a no brainer.

So in that scenario would you/or even could you base yourself in Norway for Tax purposes, In other words set up a Norwegian Limited Company rather than a UK one?...and then domicile yourself in Norway for personal taxation as well?

My tax would be Norwegian, which would mean around 46%, that's the only option I think, but I pay 41% in Surgeons fascist fiefdom so not much different.
What I'm giving up in pension contributions, bonus, holiday pay, share options in my shaky "permanent" role are more than covered by the increase in salary or rather day rate multiplied by 46 weeks. Plus Norway pay contractors 12% of earned income as tax free holiday if you wait until summer.

[Soul Requiem]

I can't see them being any better than Everton, Villa, Newcastle etc.
For decades these teams apart from some relegations have had all that Premier League money and not been able to achieve a bloody thing.
Glasgow is not a trendy city, so would struggle to attract top talent. Can't see anything but mediocrity for the OF.

If absolute giants like Man United can't win the league anymore or teams like Arsenal or Spurs then Rangers and Celtic have no chance.

No one wants these backwards cultist clubs in their league anyway. Too much trouble.
If the Old Firm don't do anything to make the league better as an attractive, investable product then they get what they deserve.

It's pretty clear you know nothing about football so why bother attempting to argue any point?

Leicester won the league so kind of negates your Everton etc. comment which doesn't take into account that yes they have had Premier League money but don't/didn't have rich owners willing to invest heavily. It's something as simple as that you choose to ignore or simply don't understand.

[super_realist]

I can't see them being any better than Everton, Villa, Newcastle etc.
For decades these teams apart from some relegations have had all that Premier League money and not been able to achieve a bloody thing.
Glasgow is not a trendy city, so would struggle to attract top talent. Can't see anything but mediocrity for the OF.

If absolute giants like Man United can't win the league anymore or teams like Arsenal or Spurs then Rangers and Celtic have no chance.

No one wants these backwards cultist clubs in their league anyway. Too much trouble.
If the Old Firm don't do anything to make the league better as an attractive, investable product then they get what they deserve.

It's pretty clear you know nothing about football so why bother attempting to argue any point?

Leicester won the league so kind of negates your Everton etc. comment which doesn't take into account that yes they have had Premier League money but don't/didn't have rich owners willing to invest heavily. It's something as simple as that you choose to ignore or simply don't understand.

You have one example of a club winning a freakish league in the history of the competition.
Show me anyone who believes that either OF team could genuinely be a contender.

As JAS says, it's a silly discussion as it's never going to happen.

[Soul Requiem]

I can't see them being any better than Everton, Villa, Newcastle etc.
For decades these teams apart from some relegations have had all that Premier League money and not been able to achieve a bloody thing.
Glasgow is not a trendy city, so would struggle to attract top talent. Can't see anything but mediocrity for the OF.

If absolute giants like Man United can't win the league anymore or teams like Arsenal or Spurs then Rangers and Celtic have no chance.

No one wants these backwards cultist clubs in their league anyway. Too much trouble.
If the Old Firm don't do anything to make the league better as an attractive, investable product then they get what they deserve.

It's pretty clear you know nothing about football so why bother attempting to argue any point?

Leicester won the league so kind of negates your Everton etc. comment which doesn't take into account that yes they have had Premier League money but don't/didn't have rich owners willing to invest heavily. It's something as simple as that you choose to ignore or simply don't understand.

You have one example of a club winning a freakish league in the history of the competition.
Show me anyone who believes that either OF team could genuinely be a contender.

As JAS says, it's a silly discussion as it's never going to happen.

Nothing freakish about winning a league title losing only three games.

[navyblueshorts]

Cheers Jas, most people have been telling me to go for it.
Its in Norway and so will be subject to Norwegian tax, but they're also paying a staggering commuting allowance meaning I get accomodation paid and flights back every few weeks so seems like a no brainer.

So in that scenario would you/or even could you base yourself in Norway for Tax purposes, In other words set up a Norwegian Limited Company rather than a UK one?...and then domicile yourself in Norway for personal taxation as well?

Not a very Labour/socialist position for you to take, JAS? Legal, maybe. Dubious, definitely. One of the reasons this dump of a country is where it is.

[McLaren]

Cheers Jas, most people have been telling me to go for it.
Its in Norway and so will be subject to Norwegian tax, but they're also paying a staggering commuting allowance meaning I get accomodation paid and flights back every few weeks so seems like a no brainer.

So in that scenario would you/or even could you base yourself in Norway for Tax purposes, In other words set up a Norwegian Limited Company rather than a UK one?...and then domicile yourself in Norway for personal taxation as well?

Not a very Labour/socialist position for you to take, JAS? Legal, maybe. Dubious, definitely. One of the reasons this dump of a country is where it is.

Dunno, is Super leaving not a net benefit to the nation?

[super_realist]

Maybe good to get out before Gruppenfuhrer Sturgeon gets her fascist state Mac.

[JAS]

Cheers Jas, most people have been telling me to go for it.
Its in Norway and so will be subject to Norwegian tax, but they're also paying a staggering commuting allowance meaning I get accomodation paid and flights back every few weeks so seems like a no brainer.

So in that scenario would you/or even could you base yourself in Norway for Tax purposes, In other words set up a Norwegian Limited Company rather than a UK one?...and then domicile yourself in Norway for personal taxation as well?

Not a very Labour/socialist position for you to take, JAS? Legal, maybe. Dubious, definitely. One of the reasons this dump of a country is where it is.

I was asking what Super (who I'm guessing is most definitely not Socialist) would do.

I quite enjoy the debating opportunity about how a high Tax state can also be really prosperous and give it's people a great quality of life and high standard of living. I can just imagine Truss and Kwarteng trying to airbrush Norway from the map before starting their dogmatic debate on tax and spend that says we can only prosper by lowering taxes.

[pedro]

What about the Qatar oil money Super? Taxes are zero and the weather is good.

[super_realist]

What about the Qatar oil money Super? Taxes are zero and the weather is good.

Would do it for a couple of years perhaps. Opportunity hasnt come past my door yet. To be honest though, not fond of Islamic countries.

[super_realist]

Looks like a guaranteed 4th for Celtic and no more Europe this year, same for Rangers tonight?

[super_realist]

Cheers Jas, most people have been telling me to go for it.
Its in Norway and so will be subject to Norwegian tax, but they're also paying a staggering commuting allowance meaning I get accomodation paid and flights back every few weeks so seems like a no brainer.

So in that scenario would you/or even could you base yourself in Norway for Tax purposes, In other words set up a Norwegian Limited Company rather than a UK one?...and then domicile yourself in Norway for personal taxation as well?

Not a very Labour/socialist position for you to take, JAS? Legal, maybe. Dubious, definitely. One of the reasons this dump of a country is where it is.

I was asking what Super (who I'm guessing is most definitely not Socialist) would do.

I quite enjoy the debating opportunity about how a high Tax state can also be really prosperous and give it's people a great quality of life and high standard of living. I can just imagine Truss and Kwarteng trying to airbrush Norway from the map before starting their dogmatic debate on tax and spend that says we can only prosper by lowering taxes.

Paying £3 for a cucumber, £13 for a beer and £2.50 for a litre of diesel would cause riots JAS in the UK. We just don't have the mentality to make a change like that in this country.

I might be earning more than double my current salary JAS when I move, but my real term income or standard of living won't increase by the same amount, imagine it was the same when you were in Malmö

[McLaren]

Super

Maybe from an accounting view point your standard of living won't increase but from a cultural one it will.

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