England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

Off goes Rahul...at least he doesn't waste a review ! That was stone dead.
Jimmy on course for ten ?

Rahane in next as Kohli was off the field too long...

England bang on this morning. A target India can’t get, making them worry too about “when” they were gonna get in. Liked it.

Especially when you’ve got the best ever exponent of killing batsmen in these conditions

The thing is that conditions last night and this morning were conducive for bowlers. When play gets stopped for the day in a little while it leaves tomorrow to play where the conditions to bat may very well be easier. At present India do not look likely to post a score over 200 so England have an excess of runs in the bank.

And that could be it for the day. Rain stops play.

We're off for rain.

Could be difficult to get back on today. Rain forecast for a good few hours yet and, even if they do get back on later, there's the issue of light. Tomorrow's weather looks patchy.

England have squandered about 25 overs of bowling to rack up pointless runs - I hope it doesn't cost them.

CaledonianCraig wrote:The thing is that conditions last night and this morning were conducive for bowlers. When play gets stopped for the day in a little while it leaves tomorrow to play where the conditions to bat may very well be easier. At present India do not look likely to post a score over 200 so England have an excess of runs in the bank.

You have a point about the conditions , Craig. I thought about it , before advising Root to bat on

Can't predict the future - weather or scores - but with the openers already gone I think England will have plenty of time to finish the job. And if they haven't , then India will probably have made up the runs anyway.

Can argue either way. But I for one am happy enough with the way they've chosen to play it.

Early lunch... Can go watch the Road Race

alfie wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:The thing is that conditions last night and this morning were conducive for bowlers. When play gets stopped for the day in a little while it leaves tomorrow to play where the conditions to bat may very well be easier. At present India do not look likely to post a score over 200 so England have an excess of runs in the bank.

You have a point about the conditions , Craig.  I thought about it , before advising Root to bat on

Can't predict the future - weather or scores - but with the openers already gone I think England will have plenty of time to finish the job.  And if they haven't , then India will probably have made up the runs anyway.

Can argue either way.  But I for one am happy enough with the way they've chosen to play it.

Early lunch... Can go watch the Road Race

Totally with you there, Alfie. As our old and much missed friend Mike Selig used to say, you also can't predict what would have happened in the past based on what's just gone on. We have 'em 2 down for very little. If we'd had double the amount of overs to bowl, it doesn't follow they would be 4 down now. They could be 50/0.That's the beauty of the game - we just don't know and often you never get to find out how different scenarios would have played out. Like you, I'm happy how it is. That doesn't mean we're right or wrong. ''It's a game of opinions.'' - Alec Stewart to me and others on several occasions.

We're back on - Pujara and Rahane digging in.

I would like Sam to have a bowl at Pujara soon.

Good catch in the cordon. 7 to go.

Broad is alive

Rain stops play again with India on 66 for 6. It is now just a matter of when not if you feel.

Top effort from England. Broad has done very well after an initial period of ineffectiveness.

Disappointed by India. Mentally weak just like the 2011 and 2014 sides that came over.

Duty281 wrote:Top effort from England. Broad has done very well after an initial period of ineffectiveness.

Disappointed by India. Mentally weak just like the 2011 and 2014 sides that came over.

I wouldn't call it mentally weak. It is more like what England and other touring sides suffer from. Truncated tours with fewer warm-up matches to get the players use to batting in conditions and pitches they are not use to. In the old days touring teams would arrive a month or so before the start of the test series and were far more acclimatised to conditions. Not the case today.

Kuldeep bowled by Anderson. England need two more wickets to complete an innings win.

I wonder what the odds (before today's play) were of the match being finished today considering the weather forecast?

Jimmy collects his fourth ...Shami knew that was out , didn't bother reviewing.

One to go...

Weather worry ? What weather worry ?

Rashid time.

Poor Ashwin cops another nasty rap on his injured hand....

Really nothing going right for India in this match.

All over ! Woakes takes the last ....nice grab Pope at leg slip.

Two - nil

Certainly had the luck of the conditions here ; but that is an overwhelming win.

India are going to have to come up with something to get back into this series.

Woakes MoTM , then ?  Though Anderson has , what , 9/43 ?

Anderson takes 9 wickets for 43 runs and probably won’t get Man of the Match. Woakes with a few wickets but the big hundred

Expert bowling by England in the most English of conditions, but India's batting was an utter embarrassment.

To lose 20 wickets in 82 overs is appalling.

2-0, should be series over now.

170.3 overs of total play. Less than two full days!!

The series will end up in 4-0 or 5-0. Indian batsmen are big home bully. I thought this summer there will be interesting cricket. But the 2011 is repeating itself in a big way.

Lots of talk about Stokes and who he replaces (if available). Tough one - a really tough one. If push comes to a shove I'd leave Stokes out and allow him to chill after a stressful week or so and stick with the same side. Re-assess after the Third Test.

LondonTiger wrote:170.3 overs of total play. Less than two full days!!

Not good for the game.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Lots of talk about Stokes and who he replaces (if available). Tough one - a really tough one. If push comes to a shove I'd leave Stokes out and allow him to chill after a stressful week or so and stick with the same side. Re-assess after the Third Test.

You mean let him have a few beers.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Lots of talk about Stokes and who he replaces (if available). Tough one - a really tough one. If push comes to a shove I'd leave Stokes out and allow him to chill after a stressful week or so and stick with the same side. Re-assess after the Third Test.

So would I. There are still places in this England team that need settling (top order still looking fragile) but not spots that require another all rounder. Suppose he could take Buttler's place at six...wouldn't harm the batting , makes the bowling even more powerful ?
Not sure five pace bowlers going forward is the best plan , even if three of them can bat. But I wouldn't think "rotating" either of the Old Boys out of a Trent Bridge Test is a goer , with the series not yet finalized.

Nice headache to have.

guildfordbat wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Lots of talk about Stokes and who he replaces (if available). Tough one - a really tough one. If push comes to a shove I'd leave Stokes out and allow him to chill after a stressful week or so and stick with the same side. Re-assess after the Third Test.

You mean let him have a few beers.

That would be the last thing I'd let him do.

alfie wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Lots of talk about Stokes and who he replaces (if available). Tough one - a really tough one. If push comes to a shove I'd leave Stokes out and allow him to chill after a stressful week or so and stick with the same side. Re-assess after the Third Test.

So would I.  There are still places in this England team that need settling (top order still looking fragile) but not spots that require another all rounder. Suppose he could take Buttler's place at six...wouldn't harm the batting , makes the bowling even more powerful ?
Not sure five pace bowlers going forward is the best plan , even if three of them can bat.  But I wouldn't think "rotating" either of the Old Boys out of a Trent Bridge Test is a goer , with the series not yet finalized.

Nice headache to have.

Yes I put that suggestion forward earlier. Drop Buttler for Stokes would be an option I'd take rather than axing Woakes or Curran.

Congratulatulations to Root as well on his captaincy.

Not everyone liked what he did this morning but he had his reasons and it worked.

He had the lion's share of the luck in this Test but importantly he used it to the full.

guildfordbat wrote:Congratulatulations to Root as well on his captaincy.

Not everyone liked what he did this morning but he had his reasons and it worked.

He had the lion's share of the luck in this Test but importantly he used it to the full.

It is a good fillip for him.

For me now he and the selectors need to solidify the top order batting and also ask why the team do not perform overseas. It has been a long time now since England won an overseas series. They need to look to fit in more warm-up games for a start and take players better suited to the conditions they will face.

I’d leave Stokes out personally - next test is soon and his court case is still ongoing.

He’s also only averaging 22 with the bat since his return to the side in NZ...whereas Buttler was man of the series and top run scorer against Pakistan.

You don’t need five seam bowlers in a test match, ever.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I’d leave Stokes out personally - next test is soon and his court case is still ongoing.

He’s also only averaging 22 with the bat since his return to the side in NZ...whereas Buttler was man of the series and top run scorer against Pakistan.

You don’t need five seam bowlers in a test match, ever.

Agree. Either the ball is seaming and your 4 pacers can run riot, or the ball isn't and you'd be better throwing in an extra spinner.

Obviously we don't know how the case will pan out and what will happen off the back of it, but if Stokes is available I think he comes back in. It's tough on whoever misses out, especially as Curran and Woakes have a MOTM each after the first two tests. But Stokes is our 6 and balances the middle order and is also the bowler who is most likely to make something happen on flatter pitches and with tours to Sri Lanka and West Indies in the winter we're going to need to get him integrated back in the team as quickly as we can.

I'm really not sure who I'd leave out for Stokes. It would have to be a seamer. I wouldn't drop Anderson from Trent Bridge. Broad is a contender, but his second innings spell was classic Broad and it's his home ground. Woakes has a fantastic record in England and played fantastically in the last game. Curran is still developing at this level and is our promising left-arm seamer we've been waiting so long for.

I think it would possibly be Woakes. That way we keep the variety of Curran in the attack and he can keep working on his game. If we go 3-0 up, I'd have Woakes back in for one of the two senior bowlers. Or possibly take Anderson and Broad both out and play Woakes and Porter/Ali (last call depending on conditions).

In terms of the game just played, I think England got it about right. They mentally disintegrated the Indian team and then put them in facing a fairly hopeless situation, especially when the rain didn't come and stay. They had enough runs to keep the 4 slips and short-legs/leg slips in for the majority of the innings and force the wickets.

From the forecast I thought there would be more rain today and the game might have gone into Day 5, but I still thought England would find enough pockets of time to take the wickets across the two days. In the end it didn't take 50 overs. If the day had washed out at 66-6, we would have still been strong favourites going into tomorrow.

We probably would have won earlier (although by a smaller margin) with an overnight declaration or even a declaration when Bairstow fell last night. But while we would have reduced the likelihood of a draw we would have given India a tiny bit of a sniff (talking 5%, up from 0.5%). Having batted on and got the win, India have been completely humiliated in this test. Hopefully we can open up those scars again next week.

Well there is not much to write on the game but a lot to think in the aftermath

--This was the type of defeat that has the potential of breaking the morale when on tour...and the tour has the potential to go downhill to a 4-0 or 5-0 from here

Bringing memories of Dhoni era overseas results

--This test was juts too messed up......and picking 2 spinners and Kuldeep's performance is lesser of my concerns....the big ones

1) We allowed stop-start/ rain / conditions in first inning as an excuse to tell ourselves its OK to be bowled out for cheap and perhaps rain will not let enuf time in the tests for us to lose

2) we did not stick to the plan that worked...ashwin with new ball leveraging the dampness in pitch and hardness of new ball from one end and 3 seamers around him going flat out from the other other end and with Kuldeep as a shock element every now and then

instead Kohli went flat out with seamers and then the first two got tired and 3rd one exposed into being only half a seamer....and by the time ashwin came...he had little assistance from either pitch or match conditions...Eng was in lead, Bairstow with momentum....and Eng marched on

This was THE BIGGEST SCREW-UP of all by Kohli...not using his limited bowling resources optimally


3)and then he gave-up......and decided to plan for the next test....and in second innings all went through the motions....

Ashwin top scored in both innings after being the lead wicket taker in first...he is fighting as is Kohli and Pandya is trying too
Rest have been flaky and fragile

--what can India do for next test?
1)Don't throw the 2 spinner plan out of window, yet..although if it is a seam friendly pitch in T3.....Bumrah might come in if fit.
2) Win the toss please.
I am a proponent for a long time...do away with toss and let the visiting captain choose
3) Get rid of Karthik.....remember "I told ya"....by T3 Pant will be in and also "told ya".....by T3 Pujara and Pant both will be in in the same team and we will have the optimal team

--and this is Kohli's biggest problem....he is loosing too many tests , experimenting too much with team and too much of radical plans in trying to be aggressive.....and while at home he has so much surplus differential against visitors that he can pull back inspite of non-optimal teams.....overseas he cannot
In SA he got the optimal team by T3 and won 3rd of the 3 tests
Here he will get it right I hope in T3 and has 3 tests to redeem himself

--as a batsman he will get the monkey of performing in Eng off his back this series....but India captains are judged in terms of winning series overseas.....and if he doesn't win 2 out of next two tests in Eng.....he will be condemned to being a mediocre test captain.....forever

For I doubt he will be captain by the time we tour England again in 2022

--and the casualty of this series will be Shastri...fat, arrogant, loud-mouth...will be held liable for not being able to rein in Kohli with discipline in team selection and balanced between aggression and indiscretion

Kohli too gets his way as long as he was delivering results.....and few more such one sided defeats.....his position as captain will also start being closely scrutinized......although he won't lose captaincy yet inpste of debacle in Eng...unless he quits in a huff when he is reined in and not given the freedom.

--rest of the team....we have to have faith in Rahul and Vijay....they are by far the best openers....and hope there are less juicy pitches for Anderson and also hope that we win the toss and put them in on a juicy pitch

It seems like it has been England's bowlers and wicket keeper that have been shining in the batting and wicket taking departments so far this series. I have been surprised how relatively weak the Indian batting has been (apart from Virat Kohli).

No name Bertie wrote:It seems like it has been England's bowlers and wicket keeper that have been shining in the batting and wicket taking departments so far this series.  I have been surprised how relatively weak the Indian batting has been (apart from Virat Kohli).

India's batting is symptomatic of touring sides in test cricket these days. The touring sides just do not have enough warm-up matches prior to the test series. Those warm-up matches are important. It allows the batsmen and bowlers to fully understand the conditions they will face and gives them time to tweak their technique to suit the conditions. Many years ago now touring teams use to arrive a month or so before the test series began and would have a good few warm-up matches - not anymore. Now touring sides tend to have one or two warm-up matches and straight into the tests. I suppose this is down to the packed cricket schedules now what with Twenty20 now taking up a big part of the calendar and gobbling up time that used to be able to be used to properly prepare for test series with more warm-up matches.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

No name Bertie wrote:It seems like it has been England's bowlers and wicket keeper that have been shining in the batting and wicket taking departments so far this series.  I have been surprised how relatively weak the Indian batting has been (apart from Virat Kohli).

India's batting is symptomatic of touring sides in test cricket these days. The touring sides just do not have enough warm-up matches prior to the test series. Those warm-up matches are important. It allows the batsmen and bowlers to fully understand the conditions they will face and gives them time to tweak their technique to suit the conditions. Many years ago now touring teams use to arrive a month or so before the test series began and would have a good few warm-up matches - not anymore. Now touring sides tend to have one or two warm-up matches and straight into the tests. I suppose this is down to the packed cricket schedules now what with Twenty20 now taking up a big part of the calendar and gobbling up time that used to be able to be used to properly prepare for test series with more warm-up matches.

I agree, although Pakistan were a slight exception to the modern rule. They took the time to arrive early and warm-up properly and came away with a drawn series. India, by contrast, reduced their 4-day game at Essex to 3-days (and reportedly wanted to reduce it to 2-days) and then had their second warm-up completely rained out.

You'd expect India to get slightly better as the series wears on if the mental fatigue of being so soundly beaten doesn't weigh them down, but if you take the first two tests to play yourself into form you're always going to be up against it.

I don’t really keep up with cricket news and views that well, but I was surprised by how happy the Australians around me are about Kohli being out in his place

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I don’t really keep up with cricket news and views that well, but I was surprised by how happy the Australians around me are about Kohli being out in his place

I'm not sure Mr Kohli and Mr Johnson saw eye to eye on the Indian tour there in 2014/15. Kohli has also scored a mountain of runs against them

Unchanged squad for England going into the 3rd test. Jury deliberations on the Stokes trial are not likely to commence until tomorrow now, and the ECB were unwilling to pick him with the trial ongoing.

I can't see England picking two spinners at Trent Bridge, so unless England throw a curveball by promoting Porter to the starting line-up, it's likely to be an unchanged XI for England.

Has been said that if it looks like Stokes will get off then the ECB have said they are prepared to add him to squad closer to time

A terrible defeat for India as it seemed by the end of the first session of actual cricket in the last test. No fight, no gumption. Totally spineless performance. People said India were losng away tests due to Mahendra Singh Dhoni's captaincy, and big mouth Shastri and Captain Brat would have all the answers!
As I wrote earlier, not sure Virat wouldn't have been entirely wrong in picking Kuldeep for a normal HQ test match But this wasn't normal at all. You don't need a 2nd spinner in England after all that rain. He messed up with Pujara not for the first time, he messed up with Rahane in South Africa, and did the same to Vijay too early. He favors flashy batsmen like Shikhar Dhawan and Rohit Sharma in test matches. They are useless in testing conditions, seaming, swinging or spinning. Then he'll go back to Pujara, Rahane and Vijay, who's confidence would be undermined by then. Then he sticks with bagages like Dinesh Karthik for ever!
Anyways this series is a goner. So give Pant a run, stick with Rahul and leave Pujara alone. Rahane needs to be talked to, but he too ahas to be left alone after that, so has to be the case with Vijay. Kuldeep has to be left out for the next test. TB has produced some of the recent ODI horrer shows on the highway of all highways like that stupid 481 game. However the test wickets have been different, they would usually provide a stern test for the batsmen who really have to be skilled to score runs out there. India is likely to miss Bhuvneshwar more and more. It really was an untimely injury to him...
Vijay
Rahul
Pujara
Kohli
Rahane
Ashwin
Pant
Pandya
Shami
Ishant
Umesh
In that order... Bhuvi for Umesh would have been ideal... with him batting 9...

MSP

The Trent Bridge test wicket is usually a pretty good batting strip, but there's frequently a bit of help for the seamers / swing bowlers because of the proximity of the river immediately behind the ground meaning there is often a bit of humidity in the air.

One thing India have been unlucky with is the weather - we (at least in the south-east) had virtually no rain from late May to the start of August, which should have reduced the effectiveness of our seam / swing bowlers and increased the help for your spinners. Unfortunately, a couple of days before the first test the weather in Birmingham deteriorated and then the Lords test started (or rather didn't) on only about the second rain day in 60 in London...

Ben Stokes found not guilty.

Expanding on what Dummy says...

Trent Bridge weather is forecast to be overcast with a bit of drizzle. Tailor made for England at a ground as he says that naturally suits classic county bowling.

I also agree that the prevailing conditions in England have been problematic for India. Even if they had squeezed in two 4 days games being bowled at by county second 11's that would've been on baked pitches in blazing sunshine...if anything counter productive. Most of the squad has already been on this tour a long time, supposedly giving them time to acclimatise (albeit against the white ball). But theres been no opportunity to practise in those extreme conditions.

Its worth noting as well that Englands batsmen struggled just as much when the ball was jagging around, the Bairstow/Woakes stand only came about once the sun was out and the ball had softened. India had a perfect storm of the conditions most likely to expose them and help Englands bowlers, and England lucked out by getting to bat in the couple of sessions when the assistance for bowlers was at its lowest.
This happens of course and Kholi rightly has accepted that sometimes it just floors you. But its particularly unfortunate that it happened at the one ground that in the previous there months would've given India conditions that suited them. And they were missing the bowler who could probably have used those conditions more than any other. Whilst they probably could/should have done a bit better and you have to credit Englands bowlers (plus Bairstow/Woakes with the bat) for absolutely capitalising on the opportunity there was a hugely significant amount of bad luck for them in the weather and toss.

Now India are left staring at a probable 3-0 scoreline. Picking themselves up form here will be a tough ask. Some tinkering with the selections wont fundamentally affect that they will be facing a confident and capable 4 seamer attack in conditions that suit them. I don't really buy that they will get better as the series goes on, if anything guys like Shami getting fatigued will become an issue. As will the pressure on Kholi to carry the batting. And internal frustrations within the team.
What happened at Lords will have hugely deflated them not only because they underperformed but also because their must be a feeling of unjustness and that even the gods are aligned against them.

In terms of Stokes...well England can clearly cope without him at home. Certainly with Woakes back.
Come winter though they will need to incorporate two proper spinners, improve the batting and find seamers who can bowl on slow low wickets. Stokes doesn't fix that but goes some way to balancing it.

I cant see past another England win at Trent Bridge. After that Indias best hope is England mucking about with more experimental selections and losing intensity.

LondonTiger wrote:Ben Stokes found not guilty.

Crumbs really ... gotta love jury verdicts right.

From what was presented the first couple of days its hard to see how, and he certainly should still be on red notice from England.

Gooseberry wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Ben Stokes found not guilty.

Crumbs really ... gotta love jury verdicts right.

From what was presented the first couple of days its hard to see how, and he certainly should still be on red notice from England.

Well the first few days was the prosecution's turn, then the defence got their go.

What seems to have helped his cause was the actual charge - Affray.

CPS Website wrote:Affray
An offence under section 3 is triable either way. The maximum penalty on conviction on indictment is 3 years' imprisonment and/or a fine of unlimited amount. On summary conviction the maximum penalty is 6 months' imprisonment and/or a fine not exceeding level 5.

Under section 3 of the Act, it must be proved that a person has used or threatened:

unlawful violence;
towards another;
and his conduct is such as would cause;
a person of reasonable firmness;
present at the scene;
to fear for his personal safety.
The seriousness of the offence lies in the effect that the behaviour of the accused has on members of the public who may have been put in fear. There must be some conduct, beyond the use of words, which is threatening and directed towards a person or persons. Mere words are not enough. Violent conduct towards property alone is not sufficient for the purposes of an offence under section 3. For a definition of 'violence' in affray see section 8 of the Act .

The offence may be committed in a public or private place.

The notional bystander test is explained in the case of (R v Sanchez [1996] Crim L R 572 CA), and asserts that the hypothetical bystander, rather than the victim, must be put in fear for his or her personal safety. Apart from the hypothetical bystander, there must be present a 'victim' against whom the violence is to be directed (I & Others v DPP (2002) 1 AC 285 HL).

It is not enough for the prosecution to prove that unlawful violence has been used. There has to be violence of such a kind that a bystander would fear for his safety. Where the violence is focused solely and exclusively on the victim, such that it would be incapable of causing a person of reasonable firmness present at the scene to fear for his safety, then the offence is not made out (Leeson v DPP, unreported (2010)).

The level of conduct appropriate for charges under section 3 will often fall comfortably within the ambit of that anticipated within section 4 of the Public Order Act 1986. Affray should be considered in circumstances of serious and indiscriminate violence. Examples of the type of conduct appropriate for a section 3 offence include:

A fight between two or more people in a place where members of the general public are present (for example in a public house, discotheque, restaurant or street) with a level of violence such as would put them in substantial fear (as opposed to passing concern) for their safety (even though the fighting is not directed towards them);
Indiscriminate throwing of objects directed towards a group of people in circumstances where serious injury is or is likely to be caused;
The wielding of a weapon of a type or in a manner likely to cause people substantial fear for their safety or a person armed with a weapon who, when approached by police officers, brandishes the weapon and threatens to use it against them;
Incidents within a dwelling should not be charged as affray merely because a lesser public order charge is not available. Offences of assault are likely to be more appropriate. Affray should be considered in circumstances analogous to those listed above where serious violence is used or threatened, and with due regard to the principles set out in R v Sanchez.
The accused must have intended to use or threaten violence; or have been aware that his conduct may be violent or may threaten violence.

The crown court is likely to be the more appropriate venue if a charge of affray is preferred.

Alex Hales seems to have been blamed by defence lawyers on both sides, despite not being charged.

As to Stokes place on the team, as with other situations when a player has lost their spot, he should have to earn it back rather than being gifted it.

As I've pointed out earlier in the thread, Stokes actually is only averaging 22 with the bat since his return from this whole affair in NZ earlier this year - and whilst he's bowled well, he shouldn't be an automatic return when you have Woakes/Curran playing as well as they are imo.

It's a tough selection - but the kind of selection issue you'd rather have to the opener issue (where you have basically no options)

LT

Correct - the not guilty verdict to the charge of affray is reasonable, in that there appeared to be no obvious risk to the hypothetical bystander of reasonable firmness.

A lot of people forget that a criminal trial is not about finding the truth of what happened but about whether someone is legally liable beyond reasonable doubt for the charge laid against them.

BBC are noting that Stokes and Hales are likely to face a charge of 'brining the game into disrepute' from the ECB, who obviously couldn't act until the Court case was over