H-cup automatic entries rethink?

I think that the qualification for the H-cup needs tweeked a bit. For example in football, for the champions league, how many teams, that get entry from each country is based on a co-efficient, (Germany from next year will enter 4 teams to Italy's 3 as the German co-efficient is now higher than Italy's). Taken this I think a mechanism should be in place to increase unions H-cup spots allowance, and decrease others that arn't performing.

I know that some of you will say that H-cup qualafication should be based entirly on Celtic League position, but the H-cup spots are given to Unions not Leagues. For this to happen you'd need the IRFU, WRU, SRU and FIR to agree to this and risk one of their automatic spots, which is never going to happen so is therefore a non starter and not a solution.

Below are the figures I'll use to back my thinking behind why a tweek is needed,

Adding together the European ranking points for each team from the each League we get,

Overall points = average per team = points per automatic entry spot
England = 125 = 9.6 = 20.83
France= 130 = 10 = 21.666
Celtic = 142 = 11.83 = 14.2

From this we can see that if done on a league by league basis the Celtic League does the best on average per team, but gains auto entry's easier. Maybe they would deserve the most auto entrys into the H-cup as the league with the highest average per team entered, but not by as many as they currently get, 7 auto places would bring them about level with England and France in points per auto entry.

But thats beside the point as entry is per Union and not per League, per Union we get the below table,

Overall points = average per team = points per automatic entry spot
England = 125 = 9.6 = 20.83
France= 130 = 10 = 21.666
Ireland = 75 = 18.75 = 25
Wales = 47 = 11.75 = 15.66
Scotland = 14 = 7 = 7
Italy = 9* = 2.25 = 3.5
*including points before Celtic League entry

This may bring claims, that for the likes of Leeds that were only in for one year bringing the average down so a look at the total points of the Top 30 teams should reflect a fairier picture

Overall points = average per team = points per automatic entry spot
England = 122 = 11.09 = 20.33
France= 118 = 14.75 = 19.66
Ireland = 75 = 18.75 = 25
Wales = 47 = 11.75 = 15.66
Scotland = 14 = 7 = 7
Italy = 5 = 2.5 = 2.5

As you can see Irelands points per auto entry is 25 to France's 19.66 and England's 20.33, but Ireland only get 3 automatic entries, to England and France's 6. And Wales who get the same number of auto entries have a rating of 15.66.

I think that a Union should be rewarded by good preforances by increaing it's automatic entries. I believe Ireland should have 4 auto entries at present. For Connacht to enter currently they would have to have finished above Ulster in 3rd palce in the league, or hope an Irish team wins a cup in Europe.
eg if Ospreys were Irish they wouldn't have been in H-cup this year (ignoring Leinsters win that got Connacht in).

At present England and France get 6 auto entries each, Ireland and Wales 3, and Scotland and Italy 2.
(we'll write this as 6 6 3 3 2 2). With two spots kept for the H-cup and Almin winner if not qualifed, but if are goes to next ranked team from that country, Engalnd and France limited to max 7 entries)

To recitify this I propose that England and France get 6 auto entries each, and the number of other entries is based on the remaining Unions perforance in the H-cup. i.e after France and England the remaining top 2 get 3 entries and the next two get 2 entries each. (still 6 6 3 3 2 2). However if one of the remaining top 2 unions Co-efficent is greater than 20, the auto places change to 6 6 4 3 2 2 ( only difference is the winner of the Almin, if not already qualified has to play of against the lowest ranked H-cup team for entry) and no max cap of 7 for England or France.

With this system it means if Ireland or Wales are prefoming well (like Ireland are) they can gain an extra auto entry, if their co efficent is higher than 20, (if both are higher than 20 only the top one gets 4 places), if they are under the 20 mark then 3 entries each, also if Scotland or Italy improve they can gain the 3 auto places (which currently they cannot take, but in future might) and Ireland or Wales lose an auto entry. Also means that say if Romania boost there co-efficient to above the bottom H-cup Union, they get their H-cup places.

Thoughts?

I'm pretty sure it is based on league position. The nations are allocated so many spots and then they distribute them in accordance with their league position. I don't think it would be possible to have the co-efficent in rugby but it would be an interesting idea.

Seems overly complicated.

Thomond wrote:I'm pretty sure it is based on league position. The nations are allocated so many spots and then they distribute them in accordance with their league position. I don't think it would be possible to have the co-efficent in rugby but it would be an interesting idea.

They dont have to though. Each Union nominates entries, its up to them who they nominate. The RFU for example used to nominate someone based on winning the cup.

Trouble is teh system of dishing out nominatiosn to Unions was based on the the period before teh Celtic league. It looks rather daft now you can have sides finsihing at the bottom of a legaue and getting in ahead of those who finsihed above them and much better sides form teh French and English league because that Union only has 2 sides to pick from.

I cant see it being changed though. Theres too much vested interest, and the cup is richer for having all Unions represented.

Argumenst about which is the strongest league based on peformance in teh HC are a canard. Theres always differnet ways of spinning it. The Magners Unions will always perform worse on average, because their weakest sides appear in the competition where only the stronger English and French sides go there. Flip it around and you could point to how many Magners/Robocop winners there are...then counter that by saying thats because tehres more Magners/Robocop sides in there.

I think we would be better off changing the Amlin format so that there are more teams from other countrys. The Russians have a professional league now and i think a German team was in talks at some point at having a team in it

If a Georgian team could be put together it would help as rugby is booming in Russia and Georgia
So we could then have 1 or 2 Russian sides 1 Georgian(would have to temp some players back from abroad) 1 Romamian 1 German and 1 Spainish/Portugese added to the 4 Italian teams which would all be of a close leave.

This would omit some French and English teams that do nothing to get in the competition and hopefully raise the leave of the weaker sides.

Reagarding your points they are well thought through and i think they could work
Ireland should have 4 places anyway

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Thomond wrote:I'm pretty sure it is based on league position. The nations are allocated so many spots and then they distribute them in accordance with their league position. I don't think it would be possible to have the co-efficent in rugby but it would be an interesting idea.

They dont have to though. Each Union nominates entries, its up to them who they nominate. The RFU for example used to nominate someone based on winning the cup.

Trouble is teh system of dishing out nominatiosn to Unions was based on the the period before teh Celtic league. It looks rather daft now you can have sides finsihing at the bottom of a legaue and getting in ahead of those who finsihed above them and much better sides form teh French and English league because that Union only has 2 sides to pick from.

I cant see it being changed though. Theres too much vested interest, and the cup is richer for having all Unions represented.

Argumenst about which is the strongest league based on peformance in teh HC are a canard. Theres always differnet ways of spinning it. The Magners Unions will always perform worse on average, because their weakest sides appear in the competition where only the stronger English and French sides go there. Flip it around and you could point to how many Magners/Robocop winners there are...then counter that by saying thats because tehres more Magners/Robocop sides in there.

I think that's the key, PSW, altho to be fair, kingshu's proposed system wouldn't necessarily impact that greatly?

True aslong ...but as I go on to discuss in the last paragraph its unfair to purely judge each unions "right" to representation in the cup based on a simple calculation of how far their clubs go.
You also get back to the argument of why should Connacht qualify no matter how bad and poorly supported they are just because Leinster are good?
If you wanted a fair system you woudl have to base it on each clubs own acheivements, maybe a mix of league position and european ranking. The trouble with thatis you lose the point both you and I agree on, theres a good chance you end up with the Italians being wiped out of the cup for mediocre french sides.

End of the day we are talking about sides who have little or no chance of winning the cup or even making the knockout stages here. In many cases these clubs are better off in the Amlin anway.

I think that is needlessly complicated.

My solution would be to have a Heineken Cup of automatic qualifiers:
4 English
4 French
2 Irish
2 Welsh
1 Scottish
1 Irish
1 Heineken Cup winner
1 Amlin Cup winner

To give 16 automatic places.

Looking at this season, Quins would qualify as Amlin Cup winner, but not as an English qualifier, so there would be no issue there. Leinster, who qualify as both the Heineken Cup winner and as one of the two best-placed Irish teams, would qualify as the Heineken Cup winner, giving Ulster the second automatic Irish spot.

I would then have the Champions of the domestic leagues in Georgia, Germany, Portugal, Romania, Russia, Spain, Ukraine and another (possibly Italy's Super 10?) play-off to give 4 winners, who would go into the second Heineken Cup qualifying round.

The second HC qualifying round would consist of:

(8 - 5 automatic qualifiers) 3 English clubs
(8 - 4 automatic qualifiers) 4 French clubs
(4 - 3 automatic qualifiers) 1 Irish club
(4 - 2 automatic qualifiers) 2 Welsh clubs
(2 - 1 automatic qualifiers) 1 Scottish club
(2 - 1 automatic qualifiers) 1 Italian Club
4 First Qualifying Round winners

Which would give 16 places and 8 winners to take their place in the competition.

No union is limited to how many teams they can have in the competition proper, but there is a limit of 8 clubs in qualifying. As examples if English clubs were to win both the HC and Amlin, they would get 6 Automatic places and 2 Qualifying round places. If Irish clubs were to win both European trophies, they would get 4 Automatic places and 0 Qualifying round places. If Scottish clubs won both European trophies, they would get 2 Automatic places, 0 Qualifying places and the top ERC ranked team set to compete in qualifying would get an Automatic spot.

So this year, we would have:
Automatic qualifiers:
Saracens, Leicester, Northampton, Gloucester, Harlequins, Toulouse, Montpellier, Racing Metro, Clermont, Munster, Leinster, Ulster, Blues, Ospreys, Edinburgh and Treviso.

Qualifying places:
Bath, London Irish, Exeter Chiefs, Castres, Biarritz, Bayonne, Toulon, Connacht, Scarlets, Dragons, Glasgow, Aironi and 4 minor European qualifiers.

I would seed this as well (top seeds and unseeded), so we would have:
Top seeds: Biarritz, Bath, London Irish, Toulon, Glasgow, Scarlets, Connacht and Dragons.
Second seeds: Castres, Aironi, Bayonne, Exeter Cheifs and 4 minor European qualifiers.

The positives for this, in my opinion, are that every union makes a concession in terms of Automatic places so that qualification can be done on merit. All 6 Nations unions get at least 1 representative in the HC proper, and 8 minor European leagues get a possible route to the Heineken Cup.

Domestic competition will also be fiercer, either to secure an automatic spot or to push for a qualifying spot.

errr!

Yes robo that looks liek a nice simple concise system and not at all confussing

Can you imagine anytime in the next 5 years the domestic prtugese chamion being able to beat a french T14 side in a comeptitive playoff game?
Is there much point to the playoff?
Given these sides arent even good enough to be included in the Amlin and theres sides in that that regulalry get destroyed by second rate Jeff sides Im not sure what the point or justification in this playoff would be.


One improtnat point on the Unikn vs Club merit qualification is where the money goes. Currently the Uiniopns get the lions share of the cash from the cup, I think ( I may be wrong) that this is partly based on how many clubs they have iun the torunament. If that is the case the Unions would never want to sacrifice a place for "fairness".
The income from the HC is vital to Unions, especially the smaller ones.

[quote="robbo277"][b]I think that is needlessly complicated.[/b]

My solution would be to have a Heineken Cup of automatic qualifiers:
4 English
4 French
2 Irish
2 Welsh
1 Scottish
1 Irish
1 Heineken Cup winner
1 Amlin Cup winner

To give 16 automatic places.

Looking at this season, Quins would qualify as Amlin Cup winner, but not as an English qualifier, so there would be no issue there. Leinster, who qualify as both the Heineken Cup winner and as one of the two best-placed Irish teams, would qualify as the Heineken Cup winner, giving Ulster the second automatic Irish spot.

I would then have the Champions of the domestic leagues in Georgia, Germany, Portugal, Romania, Russia, Spain, Ukraine and another (possibly Italy's Super 10?) play-off to give 4 winners, who would go into the second Heineken Cup qualifying round.

The second HC qualifying round would consist of:

(8 - 5 automatic qualifiers) 3 English clubs
(8 - 4 automatic qualifiers) 4 French clubs
(4 - 3 automatic qualifiers) 1 Irish club
(4 - 2 automatic qualifiers) 2 Welsh clubs
(2 - 1 automatic qualifiers) 1 Scottish club
(2 - 1 automatic qualifiers) 1 Italian Club
4 First Qualifying Round winners

Which would give 16 places and 8 winners to take their place in the competition.

No union is limited to how many teams they can have in the competition proper, but there is a limit of 8 clubs in qualifying. As examples if English clubs were to win both the HC and Amlin, they would get 6 Automatic places and 2 Qualifying round places. If Irish clubs were to win both European trophies, they would get 4 Automatic places and 0 Qualifying round places. If Scottish clubs won both European trophies, they would get 2 Automatic places, 0 Qualifying places and the top ERC ranked team set to compete in qualifying would get an Automatic spot.

So this year, we would have:
Automatic qualifiers:
Saracens, Leicester, Northampton, Gloucester, Harlequins, Toulouse, Montpellier, Racing Metro, Clermont, Munster, Leinster, Ulster, Blues, Ospreys, Edinburgh and Treviso.

Qualifying places:
Bath, London Irish, Exeter Chiefs, Castres, Biarritz, Bayonne, Toulon, Connacht, Scarlets, Dragons, Glasgow, Aironi and 4 minor European qualifiers.

I would seed this as well (top seeds and unseeded), so we would have:
Top seeds: Biarritz, Bath, London Irish, Toulon, Glasgow, Scarlets, Connacht and Dragons.
Second seeds: Castres, Aironi, Bayonne, Exeter Cheifs and 4 minor European qualifiers.

The positives for this, in my opinion, are that every union makes a concession in terms of Automatic places so that qualification can be done on merit. All 6 Nations unions get at least 1 representative in the HC proper, and 8 minor European leagues get a possible route to the Heineken Cup.

Domestic competition will also be fiercer, either to secure an automatic spot or to push for a qualifying spot.[/quote]

Mate thats more complicated!

I think the HC is pretty good. Can we not just keep it as it is?

[quote="funnyExiledScot"]I think the HC is pretty good. Can we not just keep it as it is?[/quote]

Only a few minor changes are needed really its the Amlin that needs change

I don't see how that is more complicated than a mathematical calculation regarding rankings and automatic points. We put in a qualifying round and then allocate both automatic qualification places and qualifying round places to each union. The only difficulty comes when we look at who qualifies taking into account Heineken Cup winners and Amlin Cup winners. But it becomes no more complicated than the current system.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I think the HC is pretty good. Can we not just keep it as it is?

The competition itself won't change under either the original changes nor my changes, just the teams in it.

And if I were to quibble, is "pretty good" good enough? Why settle for "pretty good" when we could have "even better"?

robbo, that would completely undermine to move the Italian sides made into the Magner/Rabo.

And while they are unlikely to get better without being exposed to tougher competition, dropping the Russians, Georgians etc into the HC is like asking a baby to take its first step and then lining it up against Usain Bolt over 100m.

Robbo277 - actually having read your suggestion there are certainly merits to it, and I particularly like the idea of opening it up beyond the 6 Nations club sides. I'd need to be convinced that there wouldn't be too many extra games involved in the qualifying process though.

They wouldn't be in the Heineken Cup though, they would be in the Heineken Cup qualifying stages. The best 4 out of the 8 would end up playing a qualifying match and, should they lose, they will drop into the Amlin Cup.

They're not going to be committed to 6 Heineken Cup games until they are strong enough to beat a mid-level European club in a two-legged tie. In the Champions League this season, the first qualifying round contained a team from San Marino, Malta, Andorra and Montenegro. No-one expects them to qualify, but the pathway is there.

FES - there would be 2 qualifying rounds, each being a two-legged tie. However, the first round wouldn't contain any clubs from the Aviva Premiership, Top 14 or RaboDirect Pro12. So for 12 of Europe's top 38 clubs will have 2 extra games.

But Robbo...if they arent good enough to be in teh Amlin which has amssive gaps in it between teh good and poor sides anyway, why would they go into a qualification torunemant for the top level cup?
Its ridiculous. Surely they should just extend the amlin if you want these guys to get european rugby.

It's good the way it is. Why change it? Seems a bit pointless.

I would have the losers of the qualication tournament go into the Amlin. So there would be 4 English clubs, 6 French clubs, the 4 losers of the first qualifying round and the 8 loser of the second qualifying round in the Amln. That gives us 22. Add another couple and have 6 pools of 4, possibly with only the top 1 in each pool going through and only 2 second placed teams drop down from the Heineken Cup.

its not broke why fix it. The champions league is no model to copy.

Robbo's way of thinking could be put in the Amlin which does need a change to have more teams from imerging nations like Russia, Georgia, etc. When those sides begin to come close to winning the Amlin they can then be put in the HC in place of some of the French and English teams

I actually like a lot of Robbo's model. I think certainly that it is too easy for some teams to qualify, and playoffs would make some teams earn their place. My team Gwent Dragons, while not being up to much in the Heineken Cup, finished mid table in the Magners League yet were the only team in the whole league NOT to go to the Heineken Cup! At least playoffs may give us a chance to beat a team lower than us in the Magners who, over the course of the season, we've proved to be more competitive than.

I've got no problem with the dragons not being in the HC as we were the worst welsh region, but it looks a bit funny that 5 teams below us got in, and perhaps means the HC standard is affected a bit?!!!

[quote="Griff"]I actually like a lot of Robbo's model. I think certainly that it is too easy for some teams to qualify, and playoffs would make some teams earn their place. My team Gwent Dragons, while not being up to much in the Heineken Cup, finished mid table in the Magners League yet were the only team in the whole league NOT to go to the Heineken Cup! At least playoffs may give us a chance to beat a team lower than us in the Magners who, over the course of the season, we've proved to be more competitive than.

I've got no problem with the dragons not being in the HC as we were the worst welsh region, but it looks a bit funny that 5 teams below us got in, and perhaps means the HC standard is affected a bit?!!![/quote]

Connacht only got in because Leinster won it if a Welsh team won it(or the Amlin) they would get in. Though the Drangons are probably in a unfair arangment as it is... its tricky to get the right balence

only works if the european cup is the pinnacle of the sport, it isnt international rugby is.

I like the fact that you've tried to think of a fair system for qualification to the HC Kingshu. In terms of the celtic nations, Ireland come out with a lot of points but it's mainly focused on two very strong sides. If they got 4 automatic places instead of 3 would connacht perform well in the HC? Probably not very well.

Wales have exactly the same number of sides and the same number of places but perform considerably worse. That may give lay to an argument on places according to ranking but there's a counter argument in terms of consolidating a sort of rugby aristocracy in that regard. Personally I like the fact we have to fight for our HC place. Three places is probably right given that the English get 6 and the French 7 (is that right? Much more in either case).

The problem comes in with Scotland and Italy. Do these countries deserve 2 HC sides each when Scotland in particular put no teams into the Amlin? Much will depend for Italy on Aironi improving but Scotland's participation at the professional club/region tier of the game is pretty poor and must be of concern to Scottish supporters. Only two pro sides and neither up to much (not intended as an insult - just an honest opinion of the current situation). It makes Scotland's national performances seem very creditable indeed.

Perhaps a single place in the HC and another in the Amlin would give the lower placed side a better chance of progressing in europe untill the SRU pull their fingers out and can sustain a larger pro playing base i.e at least one more team.

It just dawned on me that a play-off could take place between the lowest Irish side and lowest Welsh side in the Pro 12. This could be slightly fairer as Connacht and the Dragons are fairly well matched. (Lets face it it would be those two teams playing that match in the next few years.)

Irish Curry wrote:It just dawned on me that a pjay-off could take place between the lowest Irish side and lowest Welsh side in the Pro 12. This could be slightly fairer as Connacht and the Dragons are fairly well matched. (Lets face it it would be those two teams playing that match in the next few years.)

But neither the lowest Irish side nor the lowest Welsh side get a Heineken Cup spot, so what are they playing for?

If you were going down that road you could have:
3rd Irish Vs 4th Welsh (at 3rd Irish's homeground OR at ground of whichever team finished higher in the Pro12)
3rd Welsh vs 4th Irish (at 3rd Welsh's homeground OR at ground of whichever team finished higher in the Pro12)

So Ulster would play at home against the Dragons and Scarlets would play at home against Connacht under either system. However, where Connacht to finish above both Scarlets and the Dragons then you could argue that Connacht should get home advantage and vica versa.

However, this becomes messy when you look at the effect of Leinster winning the Heineken Cup. And of course HC qualification in the Rabo is done by each member union, not by league finish.

[quote="robbo277"][quote="Irish Curry"]It just dawned on me that a pjay-off could take place between the lowest Irish side and lowest Welsh side in the Pro 12. This could be slightly fairer as Connacht and the Dragons are fairly well matched. (Lets face it it would be those two teams playing that match in the next few years.)[/quote]

But neither the lowest Irish side nor the lowest Welsh side get a Heineken Cup spot, so what are they playing for?

If you were going down that road you could have:
3rd Irish Vs 4th Welsh (at 3rd Irish's homeground OR at ground of whichever team finished higher in the Pro12)
3rd Welsh vs 4th Irish (at 3rd Welsh's homeground OR at ground of whichever team finished higher in the Pro12)

So Ulster would play at home against the Dragons and Scarlets would play at home against Connacht under either system. However, where Connacht to finish above both Scarlets and the Dragons then you could argue that Connacht should get home advantage and vica versa.

However, this becomes messy when you look at the effect of Leinster winning the Heineken Cup. And of course HC qualification in the Rabo is done by each member union, not by league finish.[/quote]

I was working with Kingshu's idea at the start where Ireland get another place because of perfomence in the HC. It would be a bit fairer on the Drangons

Irish Curry wrote:It just dawned on me that a play-off could take place between the lowest Irish side and lowest Welsh side in the Pro 12. This could be slightly fairer as Connacht and the Dragons are fairly well matched. (Lets face it it would be those two teams playing that match in the next few years.)

This is not something I would want to see quite frankly. We each have 3+1 in europe and England and France have more so losing places in Europes top comp for our players to play in is not a happy prospect.

[quote="Totallybiasedscarlet"][quote="Irish Curry"]It just dawned on me that a play-off could take place between the lowest Irish side and lowest Welsh side in the Pro 12. This could be slightly fairer as Connacht and the Dragons are fairly well matched. (Lets face it it would be those two teams playing that match in the next few years.)[/quote]

This is not something I would want to see quite frankly. We each have 3+1 in europe and England and France have more so losing places in Europes top comp for our players to play in is not a happy prospect.[/quote]

How could you lose places?

[quote="Irish Curry"]

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Irish Curry wrote:It just dawned on me that a play-off could take place between the lowest Irish side and lowest Welsh side in the Pro 12. This could be slightly fairer as Connacht and the Dragons are fairly well matched. (Lets face it it would be those two teams playing that match in the next few years.)

This is not something I would want to see quite frankly. We each have 3+1 in europe and England and France have more so losing places in Europes top comp for our players to play in is not a happy prospect.[/quote="Totallybiasedscarlet"]

How could you lose places?

He suggested the Irish 4th and Welsh 3rd play-off for a place in the Heiniken Cup. If the welsh team lost Wales would lose a place in the HC for the next season.

Seemples.

TBS - if the Irish 4th (Connacht) played the Welsh 3rd (Blues) then that would leave the Blues playing in the Amlin.

Being serious the only think that I am a bit miffed with in regards to HC qualification is that Edinburgh and Glasgow are automatically in the HC every year regardless (as are Treviso and Aironi now too). I think that something needs to be done in order to stop them getting into the competition without having to even play a match. But other than that the system seems to work.

Why dont we play a qualification torunement between all the worst sides in europe to work out who deserves to go tthrough to the cup compeition to decide who the best side in europe is?

Is it really going to make a difference whether its Dragons or Conacht who ge the honour of going out in the group stages?
Its a bigger problem that large clubs like Toloun who have a relaistic chance of fielding a side capable of winning the thing dont get in when perenial no marks from the Celtic league get free passes.

People Give Connacht a hard time here but they miss that for the group draw they were the highest ranked tier 4 team,

and were olny 1 point of being a teir 3 side for the H-cup draw.

I think people have been used to seeing Connacht being bottom of the League and are taking there time realising that they arn't as bad as is believed.



I think you can compare them to Skoda, people used to take the mike out of Skoda drivers as they were bad cars, but when Skoda were bought over by Volkswagan (same as IRFU increasing funding among other things, last year), they started making good cars Fabia and Octavia, but people (who new very little about cars) still took the hand out of Skoda drivers as they said they were bad cars when in fact anyone who knew anything about cars knew they were turning out really good cars, it's just the stigma that stuck for a while.



Think Connacht have that Stigma at the minute but won't take long losing it this year (maybe not in H-cup though)

[quote="Totallybiasedscarlet"][quote="Irish Curry"][quote="Totallybiasedscarlet"][quote="Irish Curry"]It just dawned on me that a play-off could take place between the lowest Irish side and lowest Welsh side in the Pro 12. This could be slightly fairer as Connacht and the Dragons are fairly well matched. (Lets face it it would be those two teams playing that match in the next few years.)[/quote]

This is not something I would want to see quite frankly. We each have 3+1 in europe and England and France have more so losing places in Europes top comp for our players to play in is not a happy prospect.[/quote="Totallybiasedscarlet"]

How could you lose places?[/quote]

He suggested the Irish 4th and Welsh 3rd play-off for a place in the Heiniken Cup. If the welsh team lost Wales would lose a place in the HC for the next season.

Seemples.[/quote]

No i suggested the Irish 4th and Welsh [b]4th[/b] play. No one lose's a place at all

Kingshu wrote:
I think people have been used to seeing Connacht being bottom of the League and are taking there time realising that they arn't as bad as is believed.

It's amazing how you can jump up the table when you add two Italian sides

[quote="Irish Curry"]

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Irish Curry wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Irish Curry wrote:It just dawned on me that a play-off could take place between the lowest Irish side and lowest Welsh side in the Pro 12. This could be slightly fairer as Connacht and the Dragons are fairly well matched. (Lets face it it would be those two teams playing that match in the next few years.)

This is not something I would want to see quite frankly. We each have 3+1 in europe and England and France have more so losing places in Europes top comp for our players to play in is not a happy prospect.[/quote="Totallybiasedscarlet"]

How could you lose places?

He suggested the Irish 4th and Welsh 3rd play-off for a place in the Heiniken Cup. If the welsh team lost Wales would lose a place in the HC for the next season.

Seemples.

No i suggested the Irish 4th and Welsh 4th play. No one lose's a place at all

Sorry - I skipped over which placed who and whatsit However there isn't a HC place to play for between those two unless you're suggesting ERC offer a fresh one up for grabs between Wales and Ireland. Not that I would mind that but who would give up their place at the top table? Can't see anyone giving a spot up without a fight.

SafeAsMilk wrote:

Kingshu wrote:
I think people have been used to seeing Connacht being bottom of the League and are taking there time realising that they arn't as bad as is believed.

It's amazing how you can jump up the table when you add two Italian sides

The fact of the matter is that Connacht finished above three teams that were already HC qualified. So however you argue it they are better than a heap of up-their-own-jacksies fans of other sides would admit, and come the HC they will put a few peoples noses out of joint.

Kingshu wrote:People Give Connacht a hard time here but they miss that for the group draw they were the highest ranked tier 4 team,

and were olny 1 point of being a teir 3 side for the H-cup draw.

I think people have been used to seeing Connacht being bottom of the League and are taking there time realising that they arn't as bad as is believed.



I think you can compare them to Skoda, people used to take the mike out of Skoda drivers as they were bad cars, but when Skoda were bought over by Volkswagan (same as IRFU increasing funding among other things, last year), they started making good cars Fabia and Octavia, but people (who new very little about cars) still took the hand out of Skoda drivers as they said they were bad cars when in fact anyone who knew anything about cars knew they were turning out really good cars, it's just the stigma that stuck for a while.



Think Connacht have that Stigma at the minute but won't take long losing it this year (maybe not in H-cup though)

call me when they win the heineken cup

SeaBiscuit - any idea how arrogent you sound? The HC is not full of teams that are realistic hopes of winning it. Generally there are about 4-8 sides with a decent shot at winning the competition and the rest of us are filler. And event he mighty Leicester have been just filler a few times.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Kingshu wrote:People Give Connacht a hard time here but they miss that for the group draw they were the highest ranked tier 4 team,

and were olny 1 point of being a teir 3 side for the H-cup draw.

I think people have been used to seeing Connacht being bottom of the League and are taking there time realising that they arn't as bad as is believed.



I think you can compare them to Skoda, people used to take the mike out of Skoda drivers as they were bad cars, but when Skoda were bought over by Volkswagan (same as IRFU increasing funding among other things, last year), they started making good cars Fabia and Octavia, but people (who new very little about cars) still took the hand out of Skoda drivers as they said they were bad cars when in fact anyone who knew anything about cars knew they were turning out really good cars, it's just the stigma that stuck for a while.



Think Connacht have that Stigma at the minute but won't take long losing it this year (maybe not in H-cup though)

call me when they win the heineken cup

Would winning the H-cup make Connacht a decent team? No would make them a great team.



My point is while they are not going to win the H-cup or come close, (most teams won't) they are a better side than they get credit for. They finished above Glasgow, and nobody expects an easy home game against them, I'd say nobody will go to Galway expecting an easy game, or be counting the points before the final whistle.



Also to stop you sounding so arrogant, against Connacht



Connacht have a better winning ratio against Leinster than Leicester do, and prob have a better winning ratio against Munster as well than Leicester.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:SeaBiscuit - any idea how arrogent you sound? The HC is not full of teams that are realistic hopes of winning it. Generally there are about 4-8 sides with a decent shot at winning the competition and the rest of us are filler. And event he mighty Leicester have been just filler a few times.

Call me when a Welsh side wins the Heinken cup

Call me when a English team,other than Leicester, win the HC this millenium (Wasps are not even good enough to qualify)

[quote="Totallybiasedscarlet"][quote="Irish Curry"][quote="Totallybiasedscarlet"][quote="Irish Curry"][quote="Totallybiasedscarlet"][quote="Irish Curry"]It just dawned on me that a play-off could take place between the lowest Irish side and lowest Welsh side in the Pro 12. This could be slightly fairer as Connacht and the Dragons are fairly well matched. (Lets face it it would be those two teams playing that match in the next few years.)[/quote]

This is not something I would want to see quite frankly. We each have 3+1 in europe and England and France have more so losing places in Europes top comp for our players to play in is not a happy prospect.[/quote="Totallybiasedscarlet"]

How could you lose places?[/quote]

He suggested the Irish 4th and Welsh 3rd play-off for a place in the Heiniken Cup. If the welsh team lost Wales would lose a place in the HC for the next season.

Seemples.[/quote]

No i suggested the Irish 4th and Welsh [b]4th[/b] play. No one lose's a place at all[/quote]

Sorry - I skipped over which placed who and whatsit However there isn't a HC place to play for between those two unless you're suggesting ERC offer a fresh one up for grabs between Wales and Ireland. Not that I would mind that but who would give up their place at the top table? Can't see anyone giving a spot up without a fight.[/quote]

No bother my friend

In response to your question, Kingshu's idea would cover it with the Amlin winner playing the lowest ranked team in the HC for a place. The only down side would be the winner of the Welsh-Irish play-off could end up playing the Amlin winner which would defeat the point a small bit.

Kingshu wrote:People Give Connacht a hard time here but they miss that for the group draw they were the highest ranked tier 4 team,

and were olny 1 point of being a teir 3 side for the H-cup draw.

I think people have been used to seeing Connacht being bottom of the League and are taking there time realising that they arn't as bad as is believed.



I think you can compare them to Skoda, people used to take the mike out of Skoda drivers as they were bad cars, but when Skoda were bought over by Volkswagan (same as IRFU increasing funding among other things, last year), they started making good cars Fabia and Octavia, but people (who new very little about cars) still took the hand out of Skoda drivers as they said they were bad cars when in fact anyone who knew anything about cars knew they were turning out really good cars, it's just the stigma that stuck for a while.



Think Connacht have that Stigma at the minute but won't take long losing it this year (maybe not in H-cup though)

You can't really say this when the AP champions are Tier 3. Tiers mean absolutely nothing in the HC.

Skoda still have a poor brand image. Certainly compared to an Aston martin,Porsche,Ferrari etc. They always will.