Jake White sticks the boot into De Villiers

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_7061360,00.html

''They were never going to win that game [last Saturday] with that team. They haven't played together. After what happened against Samoa, the Wallabies would not have enjoyed playing against the first-string South African side.

"And let's be quite honest, the Australians would have felt the pressure. They would have said, 'If we lose to a second-rate South African team we are dead and buried'.

"In week three, it is going to be exactly the same for South Africa. They will have their first side back on the park and they will feel that pressure. But now, there is a possibility they could lose all four Tri-Nations games and have absolutely no momentum going into the World Cup.

''I would have done it differently, not just here but over the last two years. You could have rested guys from the end-of-year tour last year, all the incoming Tests last year ... you should be trying to win games in Australia and New Zealand with your best players.

And he insists that there is no comparison with his own strategy of resting players in 2007;

''The reality is there is no comparison to what happened last time, they weren't the same age and the players did not need as much game time. The boys were rested for two weeks of the away leg over four weeks. They are going to rest them in the first two weeks."

"We had three friendly matches before the World Cup started against Scotland, Connacht and Namibia, which they won't have."

I feel he has a point, but is it really productive to undermine the current coaching team publicly? It seems like he definitely wants his old job back! That said, De Villiers preparations seem to be all over the place and the disillusionment over his reign seems to be running at a high.

There is the issue that didn't exist in 2007 which is the extended format of the Super 15. A long competition now but if this does all backfire; De Villiers will struggle to work in SA rugby again.

I do get the point that perhaps his timing was not great but it was probably taken from a random question on the boks most recent performance.

There are a few things to remember mind...

Firstly, PDV took his job... remember Jake didn't leave, his contract was not renewed and he was told if he didn't go he would be fired.
Who was he replaced with... a man who had hardly any experience either as a player nor a coach and his only job prior to this was as the head of the U21 side.

He owes nothing to SA Rugby... SA rugby owe everything to him... he turned that side around from one which lost 7 on the trot to NZ and 6 on the trot to England (prior to his arrival). His record may not be as good as PDV initially because he had nothing to work with.. PDV inherited a newly crowned world cup winning side who had the best years in front of him.

In essence he took the credit for all Jake's hard work and somehow still managed to turn his side of world beaters into in many ways a joke side who with the proper management could have been a great all conquering side like the boks of old.

Moving on to what he said... I don't think anyone can disagree with his statements....

PDV is running the boks like a headless chicken, he has no ideas and never put a stamp on the job.. he literally ran out of ideas and his strategy was probably to milk the good work which was done before him.

PDV 4 years ago should have looked at his team and said.... who will be here in 2011, who will still have that hunger.

He should have built the team a core of players who would do what no other country has done... successfully defend a RWC title.

Instead he decided to do it around Smit, Matfield, Habana and Botha.. all players who probably no longer have the hunger they had pre RWC07 and haven't been consistent world class test players since 09.

If the boks get to the SF it will be seen by some in SA rugby as expected.... but in the eyes of all us bok fans it will be a travesty as this side, these players had so much potential and PDV is seemingly throwing it all away.

"I feel he has a point, but is it really productive to undermine the current coaching team publicly?"

Productive? Not sure. Within his rights, hell yes. At least it's coming from a world cup winning coach instead of some tabloid which is what you'd get over here.... And he's right; so why not speak the truth?

Of course jake White is entitled ....
what I'd like to see is some SA rugby jounalists ,getting more in the way of explanations from the people who appointed PDivvy??? now those would be interesting articles...

The way I see this is that any harsh criticism is overdue. We have been PC about this for too long and have slowly seen a decline in results from the Springboks.

With all due respect to some teams, but with our player base and depth of talent, we should not be losing matches against Scotland, Ireland and Wales.

We should be at the top of world rugby like we were many years ago, but because everyone is to afariad to say anything controversial the status quo will not change.

When Jake White was the coach he was criticised by all and sundry, was forever threatened with his job if he didn't adhere to selcting this, or making sure there is enough colour in the team or whatever.

But with the current situation mum's the word.

Nonsense, perhaps slagging the Boks harshly now, will at least provide some fire up their backsides to find the last remnant of pride for the jersey and then in spite of PDV and his pathetic coaching assistants, realise they are in the priviledged position to represent us the fans, who pay dearly for their high profile lives they are leading.

They should put me in the dressing room before this test match in New Zealand, they will definitely not have any misunderstanding about what it should mean to wear that jumper.

There is a hundred years of very proud Springbok legacy in that jumper and sure as hell I will let them have it.

Well it's been clear for some time that there's a massive gulf between PDV and Jake White in the coaching stakes. Jake White was a tactician who actually gave selection and tactics some thought, PDV is a loon who just throws players together and hopes for the best. Both the organisation of the side and the selections against Australia were worryingly lacking.

You are right Biltongbek, you shouldn't be losing to any NH teams with the players you have available, and you certainly shouldn't be losing the forward battle. You have the players to push New Zealand all the way as the number one side, and yet currently you're doing battle (and losing) with Australia for second place. It was a dark moment when your pack got shunted a couple of times by the Aussies at the weekend.

If it wasnt for talking to the South african's who have recently moved to NZ , i like most people would not be aware of the precarious position S.A. rugby is as a result of the intrusion of 'non Rugby " issues into rugby.
It defies logic that S.A. can retain P divvys appointment much longer.And perhaps a cricket score this weekend may help make the point.
As I mentioned above Why doesn't the S.A. madia do more to point out how ridiculous the people were that made the appointment? If they dont the show may as well be run from Bullawayo.
South Africa will not win the World Cup this year because S.A. does not have a competent coach.South Africa does have the players who are stubborn enough to defend the Cup.the question is can they get enough of them on the field at the same time....

aucklandlaurie wrote: If it wasnt for talking to the South african's who have recently moved to NZ , i like most people would not be aware of the precarious position S.A. rugby is as a result of the intrusion of 'non Rugby " issues into rugby.
It defies logic that S.A. can retain P divvys appointment much longer.And perhaps a cricket score this weekend may help make the point.
As I mentioned above Why doesn't the S.A. madia do more to point out how ridiculous the people were that made the appointment? If they dont the show may as well be run from Bullawayo.
South Africa will not win the World Cup this year because S.A. does not have a competent coach.South Africa does have the players who are stubborn enough to defend the Cup.the question is can they get enough of them on the field at the same time....

Sadly my friend we only have freedom of speech in the media as long as we do not criticise.

biltong
yes and thats what i was getting at with my Bullawayo comment.......

gotcha

Hi,Biltongbek only people living in SA can comment about the Politics of that
Country towards sport in Genaral and Rugby in particular.
Now back to the Rugby,it may well be that Jake White was a great Coach,building a side,That someone else reaped the benefits from.
As for instance Wales success after the Graham Henry era,BUT a Coach is judged by his results.
By that measure Jake White is mediocre at best,his 3Ns record is poor and in 2007.His FULL STRENGTH side had won there home match versus Australia,lost his home match to the All Blacks did he decide then that the 3Ns was gone and throwin the stiffs for the away legs.
Or was it Eddie Jones,who was advising him at the time?he gambled on winning a RWC and WOW he is lauded as a Great Coach.
Now look at PDVs record,after recalling players from Europe in 2008 he failed to win the 3Ns.Not surprising as Europe was effectively playing a different set of rules.BUT he did win in Dunedin versus the All Blacks something few sides have done at the House of Pain.
In 2009 he defeated the Lions,won the 3Ns 5-1 including a whitewash versus the All Blacks,and was IRB number I side for much of the year.
In 2010 he had a very patchy record in the 3NS,BUT to be fair to him he could have won 4 and Should have won 3 last year.
BOTH coaches have resorted to hiding players to protect from injuries PDV[no Boks played the Lions]Pre-tests,and Jake White 2007 away leg 3Ns.
The All Blacks 2007 rested a lot of players in that years S14 for all the good it did them.
PDV has achieved what few Bok coaches have 2 away victories in NZ in successive seasons.
There comes a time in every Coaches career when he has to make unpleasent decisions.Viz has a once Great player,gone over the hill,or his team has grown old together.Does he give it one last hurrah or dump players en masse.
One has to face the fact even the Greatest sides grow old,it happened to the All Blacks just Pre-1991 RWC for example.
PDV is resting about 20 top injured players,which demonstrates the depth of SA Rugby,but does little for morale if they take a tanking.
It could well be that many of the players now contesting the 3Ns are actually better than the established players now.
IF[as would not surprise me]the Boks win in NZ ,then play full strength sides at Home and win the 3Ns they would have a good springboard going into the RWC.
With due respect to Jake White,and South Africa NO side would have an easier run than they/he did in 2007.
PLEASE that is not knocking the Boks,OR belittling there achievement you still have to beat whatever is in front of you.
Jake White has an opinion,as a former Coach a very informed opinion of the current state of affairs in SA Rugby.
BUT it is only that to an outsider looking in IF PDV sacrifices the 3Ns and defeat on Saturday would almost certainly mean that.THEN delivers a RWC
it will come home PDV all is forgiven.
A touch of Hypocrisy on Jake White`s methinks and when or if the ABs fail to win this time.Henry and co will be cast into the outer darkness.
Of failed Coaches like Alex Wyllie,JohnHart.LaurieMains,John Mitchell,Dingo Deans,no matter how many matches they`ve won there records besmirched
by not delivering the thrice cursed RWC.

Hi Alan, it might surprise you, but Jake white is not lauded as the great coach in SA, in fact many supporters never rated him.

What is pertinent though of what he is saying, is that the situation this year is not the same as 2007. It never could be.

The players in PDV's squad being rested has an average of an additional 30 tests each.

THey are older, supposedly wiser, but out of form. They need game time.

The problem is how many times do you need to remind the coaching staff that the up and under DOES NOT WORK ANYMORE, and that running straight with no variety to your back play IS PREDICTABLE.

How many times?

It is not the fact that they lost, it is the way they lost.

I want to also add the following.

The basics of rugby we learn as 6 year olds is how to pass a ball, how to run with a ball and how to retain the ball in the tackle, we also learn to draw the player and pass to SOMEONE IN A BETTER POSITION THAN YOU.

These are basic skills that we couldn't execute on saturday.

The next basic skill set of rugby is how to attack the breakdown and hold on to possession.

We didn't do that either on Saturday.

That means the team is poorly coached.

They played as individuals, did not play as combinations.

Our scrum for the last 2 years are pathetic. These are strong young Boertjies, they have no technical knowledge.

Once again shows poor coaching.

Forget about a gameplan, if PDV and his idiot brigade can at least sort out the coaching bit, we will be much better off.

Well biltong, only reason the up and under strategy didn't work last weekend was that you told me on here that was what they were going to do, so I emailed the wallaby's coaching staff and told them about it..... see??

LOL!

But least your lot is currently world champs in the RWC. We had to deal with eight nine years underachieving wallaby sides winning naught and regularly being humilated up front. Some of it was due to the 1999 side retiring, and probably there were no real talent coming thru, but a lot of it must have been down to the coaching mind set at the time.

And our 2nd side got tonked bigger over your way a few years ago when Deans rested the 1st side to take on the kiwis in the last 3Ns game, so you shouldn't feel that bad. And a fact lot of good it did us then, the 1st side stil lost to the kiwis after!

So I can feel your frustration.

OzT wrote:Well biltong, only reason the up and under strategy didn't work last weekend was that you told me on here that was what they were going to do, so I emailed the wallaby's coaching staff and told them about it..... see??

The funny thing is PDV would be shocked if you told him you informed Deans that we will be using the up and under. He still thinks it is a surprise tactic.


SURPRISE idiot.

Sorry biltong, but that made me laugh!!!!

What is Jake White doing now, how come he's never taken over a S15 side or come North to coach?

Kingshu wrote:What is Jake White doing now, how come he's never taken over a S15 side or come North to coach?

Kingshu, he just accepted the job to coach the Brumbies next year in the super XV.

Prior to that he started a rugby consulting firm, don't know whether that will remain.

oh right thats good news for the Brumbies, wonder why he started a rugby Consulting firm, he could have got good money with Stade France or more lately Toulon or somewhere, 4-5 years out is a long time.

I think he needed a time out, Coaching the springboks in our political climate takes a lot out of a man.

Still think theres a major point being missed here in that the team who have fronted on this trip have been left to fend for themselves like chooks in a coop.
They have a right tp be supported at least by their senior players left behind and ive not heard a word.
Id suggest biltong that if you were in the changing room this saturday youd be yelling at the wrong people.
Staggers me how theyve been left to it amongst all this.

Taylorman wrote:Still think theres a major point being missed here in that the team who have fronted on this trip have been left to fend for themselves like chooks in a coop.
They have a right tp be supported at least by their senior players left behind and ive not heard a word.
Id suggest biltong that if you were in the changing room this saturday youd be yelling at the wrong people.
Staggers me how theyve been left to it amongst all this.

Well, perhaps you hit the nail on the head there. It shows the priority of PDV, he has chosen his team, wrapped them in cotton wool, and told them not to mix it with the second stringers.

It seems to me there are more wrong behind closed doors than we imagine.

You'd think Smit would have something to say, at least to his mates. Or perhaps he's on the outer too...

Just about feel like supporting these guys Saturday myself, no one else seems to be...(except you of course!)

I read NZ,SA,and Aus sites plus NZ newspapers[plus our own[ ofcourse].
So I will give you a couple of scenarios,The Boks play out of there skins and pull off a win.
Or NZ selectors try to be to clever experimenting,and lose narrowly.
Or the All Blacks absoloutly destroy the Boks,are overconfident lose home match to OZ plus both away matches,
Aus win 3Ns in some style ,nice momentum for RWC,it seems every time I go to Planet Rugby another Boks has gone lame.
How much is genuine,how much kidology I don`t know I thought teams were expected to field full strength sides in the 3Ns,only OZ has stuck more or less to that so far.
When you get quotes that the All Black selectors are groping in the dark for there best side it sounds mightily like 2007.
At my age I may not see another RWC and would like to see an All Black one before I die,much as I dislike the format I am still there greatest supporter.
I the Selectors are in doubt give me a bell i`ll sort the drongos out, only problems I see is backup full Back,Hookers and possibly wings.
Playing Mc Caw at Number 8,stupid play Thomson at 8,Kaino at 6,McCaw at 7.
Most current loosies in NZ are conversant with all 3 back row positions,the established back row,plus Thomson plus a specialist 7 Matt Todd,Luke Braid,or even Marty Holah.
Dan Carter off his game,he`s hardly played this year and usually takes the right options.Plus he is probably playing to coaches orders hence regular drop goal practice.
It may seem to some AB supporters that the non stop headless chicken approach is the only way for them to win.
I`ve seen more All Black matches then many NZ supporters in many styles,the most efficent one was a great pack,kicking halfbacks and a goal kicker.THAT was good enough to win nearly every series foe 15 years.
In those days it was`nt called boring Rugby,it was called winning Rugby.

Well I can guarantee you Alan that first scenario aint going to happen. Too many alarm bells...

For NZ its simple... rest those key players as it looks like we can afford to. There'll be no ambush, maybe we wont hit any heights but this SA team has no chance on Saturday against the AB's. Zero.

You must have read this one then:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/5345188/Injured-Boks-at-training-camp-while-B-team-slump

And the most successful ones werent just the 10 man stuff, it was the flavour at the time. Last year we were on a winning streak to capture the most consecutive tests and fell just short- that wasnt 10 man. 87-90 the same- total 15 man rugby, 2004 through to about 7- same again.

The late 50's and whole of 60's is the only real period where we can say 10 man rugby dominated the game. 70's wasn't successful and 80's not till 87 onwards. Since then it always been about 15 man rugby.

We're in good hands Alan, better than either Oz or SA at the moment at the hands of I believe the best coach to coach at this level. He has the stats to support it.

Agree with McCaw at 8 though. He needs to get back into form so why at no. 8? Surely him being right is more important than Thompson being tested as back up? Dont get it... Put McCaw on and pull him at 60 mins and put Thompson on- a more likely scenario in any World cup knock out.

Clearly the stress levels are rising and they're making World cup cover off based decisions when they dont need to. Just keep picking the best players for the position and we'll be right.

Don't muck them around.

Can't stand these have cake and eat it too scenarios.

Didnt need to do it last year and they won most.

Taylorman .Hi i have the advantage of many years on most here,and much of my early knowledge of it was via written media,or radio plus a bit of Film newsreels.
Rugby was`nt a Tv sport until late 1960`s at the earliest,you wanted to watch you did it in person.
The cost for someone like me to view live a tour match,let alone an International in mid1960`s.Coach/train fare plus local bus or taxi fare.Tickets,overnight stay in a hotel would have been about at least a months wages for me.
BUT 10 man lasted for roughly 15 years,with one very close Tour loss in 1960.That period was 1950 when there final mastery of the 3-4-1 scrum created a platform plus these were the day of the "RUCK."Until Freddie Allen produced his Kiwi style rugby precision back moves straight out of the text book.
BUT he also had the best packinthe world to base his game on and most of them were vets of the trench warfare.
Lions 1950,59,Boks 56,Wallabies anytime France tried the running game but was squeezed out.
The 1970`s was the weakest era of NZ Rugby when attack,meant a back row plus a running Scrumhalf Sid Going.
Sid a great runner but hid the fact,his distribution wasaverage at best,seem strange, Justin Marshall has 80 odd caps his best friend would`nt say he was a great passer of the ball.
BUT he had a great allround game.
My scenario is different to most here winning a RWC is nice a bit of candy floss.Being THE best side in the World matter more to me All Blacks don`t lose matches they just score less points than the other side.
THE day an All Black side throws a test match or a Series to try and win a little Gold Pot is the day I stop supporting them. I pray God that day never comes.
My fear is this whatever AB side is put out and it will be near full strength,have an easy win on Saturday.,go in undercooked.
Then go on to lose to a rested fired up at home,AB`s don`t lose at home 30 odd matches since1903 that is an article of faith.I don`t expect them to win away in in3ns matches but that is a 40 % bet too for them by the record.
Problems for the selectors especially in a RWC year I understand,S15 has produced a horrendous injury list for all three sides.
BUT the cynic in me says a lot of them has gone on a conviently long time,in a non RWC year I suspect many of those will be like spring lambs frolicing about.
S15 form has`nt translated to 3Ns form to RWC form etc.many established players have not shone in the S15,or are returning from injuries.
Others have put there hands up,in normal years some of these players would get a chance in july internationals,Come 3Ns time established team takes over fringe players to bench.
Take a simple case Toeva a graham Henry protege has about 40 caps,in several positions mostlyof the bench.but has seldom been consistently convincing enough to replace the current incumbent,injuries have`nt helped him.
Richard Kahui would almost certainly established a place at centre years ago except for constant injuries,Conrad Smith has had his fair share too.
At one time there was talk of a Smith ,Kahui midfield NH style centres[which effectivly they have had since Nonu stepped up.
The two half back concept at 10 and 12 having ceased with Aron Maugers retirement.

"I thought teams were expected to field full strength sides in the 3Ns,only OZ has stuck more or less to that so far."....

Well cause there IS only one side in the wallabies' camp, the 2nd team is weaker than old ratalatonian's lower fourths....

With oz its really a matter of having to and against samoa they too chose to rest players.
Abs have given the engine room guys a break.
Good signs with the injured too. Jayne toeava dagg gear and woodcock all back before the SA leg. Good signs there.

OzT wrote:"I thought teams were expected to field full strength sides in the 3Ns,only OZ has stuck more or less to that so far."....

Well cause there IS only one side in the wallabies' camp, the 2nd team is weaker than old ratalatonian's lower fourths....