Strongest England XV from training squad.

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15. B.Foden
14. C.Ashton
13. M.Tindall (c)
12. M.Banahan
11. M.Cueto
10. T.Flood
09. B.Youngs

08. N.Easter (vc)
07. C.Robshaw
06. T.Croft
05. T.Palmer
04. C.Lawes
03. D.Cole
02. D.Hartley
01. M.Stevens

16. A.Corbisiero
17. S.Thompson
18. L.Deacon
19. J.Haskell
20. D.Care
21. J.Wilkinson
22. M.Tuilagi

The back three of Foden, Ashton and Cueto seem certain of their places, with no real threat. In the centres, although it was very hard to leave out Tuilagi, who I feel could make a massive impact coming off the bench, Tindall's experience and leadership and defensive quality would make him captain of the team. At inside centre Flutey has been poor in a weak Wasps side this season, whilst Banahan is a more useful option than Hape, Banahan's size and power gets him over the gainline, whilst he can also offload in the tackle. His positioning and defense has improved, whilst his handling is under-rated. The inclusion of two bruising centres would put an emphasis on Toby Flood to display his top notch distribution skills, whilst there is no doubt his kicking out of hand and goal kicking is much improved and keeps the former talisman Wilkinson on the bench. Care has been in fine form this season, but on his day Youngs is world class.

The back row is very important. With Easter, Robshaw and Croft making up the perfect balance in my opinion. Easter provides grunt around the fringes and ball carrying power. Robshaw is an impressive link-man, who carries very strongly and tackles his heart out, whilst his work at the breakdown has been highly impressive this season. Croft is world class in the lineout, improved in the tight and dangerous as a support runner. Form and ability wise Moody should be nowhere near the squad, he offers very little in attack as he's a weak ball carrier and a poor link-man, whilst in defence he gives away penalties and can get brushed off in the tackle, there is no doubt he gives 100% and has experience, but in this day and age you need a 7 who offers something in attack. Wood is like for like backup for Croft at blindside and Haskell can provide a massive impact from the bench.

At lock, Lawes should takeover from Deacon and carry on an impressive partnership he was beginning to form with the much improved Palmer. Sheridan has been injured and hasn't participated in training therefore Stevens would be my first choice loosehead, he has been very impressive there despite tighthead being his preferred position. Although second choice to Castro at Leicester, Cole has never let anyone down in an England shirt and is a tough character. Corbisiero on the bench as he can cover both sides of the scrum to a high standard and was impressive in the six nations. Hartley remains first choice hooker and a potential captain of the future, with Thompson covering on the bench.

Thoughts?

Can anyone justify why they were left at home?

Nope. Not when the players that were selected seem considerabley worse. I don't think Smith appreciates the attributes of Allen. Since he became the attack coach both England and the Saxons have been about big centres. Not sure why Barritt is out though, he is a pretty big centre and would offer the crash option England want but with a bit more in the handling and kicking stakes. Maybe Smith doesn't appreciate the Sarries attacking philosophy.

I would have picked Allen simply to give the option of picking him with Manu. Wouldn't want Nonu running at Allen though.

If that's the case Smith didn't obviously watch Saracens for the 6-7 games where they played attacking rugby and really tested opposition defences.

I know I obviously go on about Barritt but I really think he is underrated because of Saracen's game plan.

Watch out for the Brad Barritt - Adam Powell centre partnership next season if Saracens play expansive!

9.Wigglesworth
10.Hodgson
11.Strettle
12.Barritt
13.Powell
14.Short
15.Goode

A fairly decent backline if an expansive style is on the agenda. All English qualified too.

See I rate Powell very highly he was comfortabley the better of the two at the last GP final. Seemed to be a well rounded centre with pace and power. Barritt may well have been hurt by Sarries kick and chase game plan and Farrell's limited distribution. I suppose the selectors spent a season watching him tackle and touch the ball twice a game for a crash ball as Farrell didn't have enough time to kick. Unfortunate for him, I'd have liked to see him given a go.

Wouldn't want Nonu running at Allen though.

Best tackler in the Tigers backline. Rarely missed a tackle last year and the number of opposition centres that had good games against Tigers was nil for a reason. Irrespective of the size of the opposition Allen has developed great technique and he is used to tackling bull dozers in training what with the Tuilagi boys not known for taking prisoners. I'd back his defensive skills, he isn't the biggest though so the option of a big crash ball isn't really on, he tends to picks holes and make the gainline through quick feet and quick thinking. Mr Consistent as well, rarely makes a bad decision.

I'd have liked to seen the pair of them given a go in the friendlies pre RWC. Could have added significantly more to the England squad.

Tigers backline suffers from a lack of English qualified wingers I'm afraid so the best EQP backline we could do would be;

9.Youngs
10.Flood
11.Smith
12.Allen
13.Manu
14.Lewington (England under 19s wing/fullback)
15.Tait
Subs; Young, Twelvetrees, Forscyth (England under 20 utility back).

formerly known as Sam wrote:Wales do at least have the option of Davies who is in decent form and has proved himself on the international scene. Slot Roberts in as a smashy 12 and job is a good 'un.

Davies and Roberts don't really seem to work well, they have had a number of games, in fact probably our most regular pairing...

Robbo how many of those tries did Hape and Tindall score?

if it was indeed 2009 I would agree about Flutey. It is 2011 though. Since 2009 Flutey has spent his time either being injured or playing for two floundering sides - Brive and Wasps. Picking an injured off form FLutey is actually a huge gamble in my opinion.

Can Flutey play like 2009? I doubt it. Flutey is actually unproven in 2011.

None, but we won games and scored tries with those centres and they contributed to the success of the team.

The thing is, is Flutey any more of a gamble than the untested Allen or Barritt? In my opinion Flutey is the gamble and Hape is the back-up plan. As I said, I would have picked one more IC (probably Allen) as a third-option to get in with the squad in case of injury.

I probably would have taken Allen and Hape in my training squad, seeing if Allen could hack it at International level and Hape to come in if he can't. As it is, we've taken someone we know can hack it at International level and now we want to see if we can get him back up to form, with Hape to come in if he can't.

beshocked wrote:Robbo how many of those tries did Hape and Tindall score?

if it was indeed 2009 I would agree about Flutey. It is 2011 though. Since 2009 Flutey has spent his time either being injured or playing for two floundering sides - Brive and Wasps. Picking an injured off form FLutey is actually a huge gamble in my opinion.

Can Flutey play like 2009? I doubt it. Flutey is actually unproven in 2011.

Maestegmafia Banahan has no experience at inside centre! In his only match in the centres for England he got taken to the cleaners by Ireland.

Banahan is supposedly cover for England at inside centre based on a couple of games. Laughable really.

The two best inside centres in England have been consistently the best for 2 seasons in the AP - Brad Barritt and Anthony Allen. If you disagree then who has been in your opinion?

Can anyone justify why they were left at home?

Sam you seem to think A.Allen doesn't fit MJ and the English management. What about B.Barritt?

Agree over Banahan, which was why I am so surprised he has been forwarded as an inside center by so many England supporters on this thread and others like it.

I saw Barritt a few times for Saracens and i agree that Farrell probably ruined his chances by kicking the ball far too much. But hey, thats what won them the title so you cant blame the promising young lad for that. Though Barritt does look good, and does fit Johnsons game plan.

how did he go in the Saxons, I think he was in the team for Six nations and Churchill cup wasn't he???

Adam Powell has been really unlucky with injuries and hasn't yet reached his form of those last 6-7 matches where he forged that successful partnership with BB. Want to come back fighting. Him and BB can show the English management what they can do.

Is Matthew Tait really a good full back?

Yes you are right about Leicester. V strong EQ half backs and centres but questionable back three.

Robbo as I said before there is a huge difference between 2009 and 2011. Allen and Barritt have been performing well for the last 2 years for the two best teams in England whereas Flutey has been floundering for two teams in poor form.

You are evidently happy with mediocrity. I an understand that. Quite a few England fans are pleased with that. Hape and Flutey will never compete with the best inside centres in the world. Barritt and Allen might be able to as they compete with the best in the AP on a regular basis.

I wouldn't be surprised if MJ tried Manu at IC as it is probably the only way you could get him into the squad as you wouldn't want to take 3 OC's to New Zealand. There is of course Banahan as an option there as well.

I would prefer if in form Flutey though, his distribution releases some pressure from Flood and is also an attacking threat.

Tait is not a good enough full back yet, but the guy has all the raw attributes and did play pretty well there in a game of some significance ('07 final). Far from the finished article in that position but what quality does he not have for that position? Kicks well, tackles well runs in broken field brilliantly...

I think the problem with the centres appears to be that they are selecting for a game plan, rather than selecting the best 30 players and then developing the game plan best suited to those players.

Well you've said it yourself there. Flutey has been in two teams in poor form. Let's put him into a strong set-up with good coaches and good players around him and see if he can get back to the form that won him a call-up (in a strong Wasps team) and the form that he showed at the top level (in the 2009 Six Nations and Lions tour).

Your last sentence is ridiculous. Allen and Barritt have shone at Aviva Premiership level, sure. But neither of them have lit up the Heineken Cup or been tested at International level (aside from 2 caps for Allen in 2005). They are unproven, and if we were to choose both of them there is a chance that they could both fail. As you said yourself, they "might be able to compete", but conversely they might not, they might get shown up.

Let's go right back in time. I would have had Allen going to Australia and starting the tests in place of Hape, then if he had played well he could have been the incumbent and we could have looked at bringing in Barritt at some point this year to see what he is got. But that's not what happened. Hape is the incumbent, he has played solidly for England and we can't afford not to have him in the squad.

Then as I've said I'd pick Allen as the second choice inside centre to see how he goes with the squad, but I can understand the choice of Flutey (and if we get him back to form then we'll be a much stronger team for it), although I would have brought a dedicated 3 inside centre into the wider squad in case of injury. But I would not have picked Allen and Barritt and left Flutey and Hape at home; it would have been too big a gamble.

Johnson hasn't picked the squad I would pick, but I'm going to get behind the team he has picked. There are pros and cons behind every pick and every player, but you can't seem to see that. The only thing that matters to you is AP form - you completely disregard any thought of International experience and consistency of selection.

Is Matthew Tait really a good full back?

I think he is a good one now and could be an excellent one sooner rather than later. Geordan Murphy will be there to guide him and there are international full backs in Hamilton and Agulla also in the squad (though they are both better wingers). Cockerill really wants to add counter attacking strength from deep just as Saints have with Foden and Sarries do with Goode. Minus Geordan we just don't have that ability and with Geordan now 33 and on the wrong end of some nasty injuries we need a viable alternative. After all it was only the other year we tried to use Sarries interest in Hougaard to secure Goode in a swap deal, sadly Sarries weren't going to accept that.

manu's boxing coach who are these 3 outside centres you are on about?

I thought there were just two - Tindall and Tuilagi.

Picking a guy who hasn't played rugby properly for two years isn't a gamble?

It is a gamble picking Flutey - no matter how you look at it.

As I keep saying Flutey was good in 2009. It is 2011. If Flutey was playing consistently in the two years I could understand picking him but he hasn't. His experience isn't really that vast - he has 13 caps.

Allen and Barritt are untried at international level because MJ won't pick them. In the last 2 years they have had played as much international rugby as Flutey - zero.

I can't get behind the inside centre picks as they are so appalling. A chimp could have picked them better.

Hape is a mediocre journeyman. He has 5 caps. Better to stop selecting him before the Hape is great bandwagon grows too big.

Also you are probably one of these double standards people happy to pick Sharples and Tuilagi but not actually pick the form inside centres in the AP.

I don't rate either Hamilton or Agulla that highly. Geordan Murphy is class admittedly. Nice bloke too.


The problem Tait might have at full back or any position actually is defence.

Wait... I have a great idea. Why not pick Tait at outside centre for England? He has experience - 38 caps for England. Check. Has been out injured for a long time. Check. Not played for England for at least a year. Check. Been playing for a team struggling. Check.

What do you think? I might think he might be a gamble but when he is at his best like 4 years ago in the RWC 2007 final he is a force to be reckoned with.

Or is it simply stupid to pick a player out of form and injured?

The problem Tait might have at full back or any position actually is defence.

His side on defence is actually pretty good, a throw back to his sevens days. His front on tackling isn't great though he struggled to get under the oppositions hand off and is often driven over the gain line whilst making the tackle. His long standing shoulder injury won't help that. What will help that is the Tigers contact training sessions which turned Allen from a revolving door to one of the most reliable tacklers in the AP (not the biggest hits but doesn't tend to miss).

don't rate either Hamilton or Agulla that highly

Both are good wingers but neither is much cop at FB. Neither has the all round footballing skills though both are good at picking attacking lines. Agulla's hand off is massive for somebody his size. With one of Tait or Murphy at FB they can get back to what they do best, come off the wing and cause trouble, Hamilton in particular is an unspectacular but very reliable finisher.

Neither are that quick though are they? You really missed Geordan Murphy in that final.